zithlin
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Post by zithlin on Dec 1, 2011 6:08:50 GMT -5
Hello! So, I know there are upwards of a ton or so threads concerning RP and such and so forth and la-dee-da-cry-me-a-river about evil PCs and I am sure for good as well. My question is based on the simple reminder to players concerning NPCs: That they're actually there and actually living, breathing, thinking and thought provoking beings. I've seen ample examples of players addressing NPCs and in other ways recognizing their presence, and of course, DMs taking over those NPCs for the purposes of their events, be they small or large.
So basically...why not do the same with hostile NPCs? I am no builder and don't understand the toolset very well but I believe there is a manner in which one can also change the 'faction' orientation of a PC with a certain group of NPCs. The reason I bring this up is that, as a person who enjoys RPing both evil and good PCs, I find myself torn as an evil PC for the simple fact that every NPC that doesn't want to kill me is either Good or in the Thayan Enclave (And let's face it, never many people there...). So it is oft that I have little depth to my evil PC because they tend to venture with good PCs anyway or when they are with Evil PCs, it's almost like an idea of preference rather than alignment, and the two get along because they are both evil. That is not realistic at all. Two jerk-faces don't see each other and say 'Hey! Your face is a jerk too! Let's be friends!' No no no. Evil is manipulative, twisted, intricate, intriguing, and usually very dark. Evil is not DIFFERENT than good. It is the opposite. It. Is. Bad. That's the truest expression of what it is. So when the worst my evil character gets the chance to do is act like a well-armed Dr. Gregory House that's hardly cause to play an evil character. I want to be the villain! I don't want good PCs to see me and think 'Oh, that guy is a bad role-model.' I want them to freak the heck out and go 'Oh my Lathander that strikingly handsome gentleman is evil!' (Or something similar.)
What I'm saying is that while it's quite easy and believable for my good PCs to have their dreams of heroism fulfilled in their RP and basic ventures across the countryside, my evil PCs must resort to making excuses toward their actions for myself to justify their alignment. 'Yes, I saved the elven prisoners from their cells! BUT, I did it while laughing villainously and stroking my large twirly moustache!' I do have more to say and propose, but I don't wish to monologue inanely like the villain we all know I am...Well...That you'll all know I am soon enough...Muahahahahahaaaaahem...I'll let you respond as you will.
~Jalthex
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Post by Munroe on Dec 1, 2011 9:39:57 GMT -5
What I'm saying is that while it's quite easy and believable for my good PCs to have their dreams of heroism fulfilled in their RP and basic ventures across the countryside, my evil PCs must resort to making excuses toward their actions for myself to justify their alignment. 'Yes, I saved the elven prisoners from their cells! BUT, I did it while laughing villainously and stroking my large twirly moustache!' You know saving those elves is optional. |
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Post by erratic1 on Dec 1, 2011 9:56:20 GMT -5
It's completely optional to save those captives. It's also optional to kill them, mock them, pull faces at them or call their mum a donught. Also to gloat to the tree-hugging fairy when you get back to town what you did to them as well.
As for other characters looking at yours and thinking "Ooh, he's bad." ...well that's a double edged sword. You'll get all the good and bad attention you want. Sometimes it's not always good to be noticed so. Although if you truly don't mind everyone on the server shunning your character, then have a word with Aris Norman's player: He can tell you all about how he managed it. ;D
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Post by Kelandros Armelis on Dec 1, 2011 12:44:39 GMT -5
Evil does not need to be in your face, it can be done through a large variety of ways and no it does not mean you have to tell the "heroes" that your only after their blood/money/etc. Yes there are evil characters who do not get along but so are good aligned ones butting heads. It does exist but not everyone may see it and thus may give you a wrong impression.
You can travel with good guys if RP warrants it but it does not necessary means that your doing good deeds. Even when traveling with good or neutral aligned characters you can work evil. Sometimes they tolerate it and sometimes they won´t but nonetheless you work evil.
The best evil is done when the good/neutral side only gets aware of it when it is too late for them to react. You do not need to kill tons of people to be evil and it does not mean you have to wave an evil flag infront of the guards. Evil is versatile and stereotypes are not doing justice to it.
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Post by lowstorm on Dec 1, 2011 14:22:52 GMT -5
There's some other low level pc's also that're evil. And you can always hang out with us big boys.
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zithlin
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Post by zithlin on Dec 1, 2011 19:07:04 GMT -5
Egh...Perhaps I flew a little off-topic in my first post. My main point was actually concerning the possibility of the faction orientation of hostile NPCs being used in roleplay and the simple idea of actually being a villain. I know it's optional to save the captives (Though a hard thing to get away with if having ventured through with a good character,) I was really only making that statement as a generalization of the overall idea. Perhaps it's simply the circumstantial idea of it all. When it comes to playing a character, I seek to have everything they do become reflected in how they act and what tasks they perform and I was merely extending the feeling of more realistic RP coming from my good characters than my bad ones. I also didn't mean for this to sound like complaining, as it isn't, not at all. And yes, I realize that evil does not have to be fully in everyone's face, I just feel a lack of danger in terms of good characters finding out the dastardly nature of my characters. So maybe not 'in their face,' I'd just like to give them a reason to at least make a couple of 'spot checks' for their evil. The big fun of good and evil; law and chaos is the struggle of opposing alignment, not clique RP/Adventuring (Though that is of course an element.)
Once again, sorry if it sounded like complaining, I was trying to make the topic sound as lighthearted as I could and may have trailed from the main idea.
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Post by tarus on Dec 1, 2011 19:51:58 GMT -5
It's completely optional to save those captives. It's also optional to kill them, mock them, pull faces at them or call their mum a donught. Also to gloat to the tree-hugging fairy when you get back to town what you did to them as well. As for other characters looking at yours and thinking "Ooh, he's bad." ...well that's a double edged sword. You'll get all the good and bad attention you want. Sometimes it's not always good to be noticed so. Although if you truly don't mind everyone on the server shunning your character, then have a word with Aris Norman's player: He can tell you all about how he managed it. ;D I wouldn't recommend killing those elves... you'll screw up your faction for the whole server if you do. Every NPC in every town will be out for your blood until your character is killed or a reset happens. I would like to see people treat NPC's the same way they treat players. I always laugh when people call it adventuring to kill hostile NPC's outside town and then murder to kill PC's. See, every Adventurer is a murderer if he/she has killed NPC's or PC's. But not many seem to view it that way. The difference between most PC's and mine is that my PC's are okay with being murderers. Even the good aligned ones. |
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Post by erratic1 on Dec 1, 2011 23:05:37 GMT -5
It's completely optional to save those captives. It's also optional to kill them, mock them, pull faces at them or call their mum a donught. Also to gloat to the tree-hugging fairy when you get back to town what you did to them as well. As for other characters looking at yours and thinking "Ooh, he's bad." ...well that's a double edged sword. You'll get all the good and bad attention you want. Sometimes it's not always good to be noticed so. Although if you truly don't mind everyone on the server shunning your character, then have a word with Aris Norman's player: He can tell you all about how he managed it. ;D I wouldn't recommend killing those elves... you'll screw up your faction for the whole server if you do. Every NPC in every town will be out for your blood until your character is killed or a reset happens. I would like to see people treat NPC's the same way they treat players. I always laugh when people call it adventuring to kill hostile NPC's outside town and then murder to kill PC's. See, every Adventurer is a murderer if he/she has killed NPC's or PC's. But not many seem to view it that way. The difference between most PC's and mine is that my PC's are okay with being murderers. Even the good aligned ones. Yeah, true. However, given the limited response an NPC can give without DM intervention, this is asking a lot even from the most die-hard roleplayer. It's at the very core of the game itself, unless everyone suddenly decides to play pacifists. That'd make the game very boring very quickly. As for killing the Elven prisoners- yes, the factions would go mental, however, that's really ooc and unfortunate, IMO. How would anyone else know what you've done in town if no one else is there to witness and report the act? (Unless you gloated about it back at town). It's a shame that there's not a viable option in-game for the evil characters to have options more suited to their alignment for this. |
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Post by kaltorac on Dec 1, 2011 23:51:39 GMT -5
I wouldn't recommend killing those elves... you'll screw up your faction for the whole server if you do. Every NPC in every town will be out for your blood until your character is killed or a reset happens. I would like to see people treat NPC's the same way they treat players. I always laugh when people call it adventuring to kill hostile NPC's outside town and then murder to kill PC's. See, every Adventurer is a murderer if he/she has killed NPC's or PC's. But not many seem to view it that way. The difference between most PC's and mine is that my PC's are okay with being murderers. Even the good aligned ones. Yeah, true. However, given the limited response an NPC can give without DM intervention, this is asking a lot even from the most die-hard roleplayer. It's at the very core of the game itself, unless everyone suddenly decides to play pacifists. That'd make the game very boring very quickly. As for killing the Elven prisoners- yes, the factions would go mental, however, that's really ooc and unfortunate, IMO. How would anyone else know what you've done in town if no one else is there to witness and report the act? (Unless you gloated about it back at town). It's a shame that there's not a viable option in-game for the evil characters to have options more suited to their alignment for this. Wait! You've obviously slain their captors. What is more evil than letting them slowly starve to death locked up and unattended? What is more evil than sneering at them and saying ... "Bah .. a pesky elf ... let 'em rot"? |
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Post by Savoie Faire on Dec 1, 2011 23:52:40 GMT -5
Why does everyone assume Garrot is 'Good'?
Face it, if you are evil and known to be, you have failed as an evil character. The object of being a successful evil character is to not get caught.
For all you know, Kale may be a fence for the local thieve's guild. He is just a little sneakier than the average PC about it!
I am sorry to sound so trite on this topic, but the idea that if it's not overtly evil it must be overtly good is a concept I wish had never been entrenched in D&D. Not all of the non-hostile NPC's are good, and not all of the hostile ones are evil. Hostility has nothing to do with alignment, it has to do with belonging there.
For example: an half-orc character goes into the orc caves near Greatgaunt for friendly visit with his cousins. They don't know him, he is in their home without invitation, they attack. It has absolutely nothing to do with alignment.
Try walking into the castle in Suzail and see what the 'good' humans there do!
I on occasion offer opportunities for PC's to interact with overtly evil NPC's. This will seldom occur in the village square in Greatgaunt. I apologize if I haven't offered such opportunities to you in game.
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Post by quelunia on Dec 2, 2011 0:24:05 GMT -5
Ya haha Kal, I have done that very thing to that poor poor elven prisoner... sneer at him and watch him cry and beg for mercy... and shortly before he falls over to frail to hold his head up the elven b@$-tard even asked for death... then Shesh just walked away laughing.
The bad part was I didnt get xp for it.... and the endless stream of good or nuetral aligned passionates get xp for what they do. The point being made isnt that ya there are things like this to be done, the point is you dont gain experience for doing it unless a DM sees it and decides to reward it.
There are some quests that do and its fun to see the NPC begging and all.... like one you have to get a cook book for.... thats especially cruel teasing an old woman... I would never do it in real life, but for the RP of my character..it is very fun.
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Post by erratic1 on Dec 2, 2011 1:03:29 GMT -5
Yeah, true. However, given the limited response an NPC can give without DM intervention, this is asking a lot even from the most die-hard roleplayer. It's at the very core of the game itself, unless everyone suddenly decides to play pacifists. That'd make the game very boring very quickly. As for killing the Elven prisoners- yes, the factions would go mental, however, that's really ooc and unfortunate, IMO. How would anyone else know what you've done in town if no one else is there to witness and report the act? (Unless you gloated about it back at town). It's a shame that there's not a viable option in-game for the evil characters to have options more suited to their alignment for this. Wait! You've obviously slain their captors. What is more evil than letting them slowly starve to death locked up and unattended? What is more evil than sneering at them and saying ... "Bah .. a pesky elf ... let 'em rot"? Bah! Found out! |
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zithlin
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Post by zithlin on Dec 2, 2011 1:06:34 GMT -5
Face it, if you are evil and known to be, you have failed as an evil character. The object of being a successful evil character is to not get caught. But this is the point I'm making. That's the fun in playing an evil character. Either completely failing at hiding your true colors because you're such a chaotic and rampant fool (but in Zan's case, getting away with it because people just wave it off as your having been completely drunk,) or having/getting the chance to hide your dark doings from the 'Goods.' However, when there is no chance that Good PCs find out my character is evil because the only possible way they can is that I RP my brains out trying to pull them into the intrigue that essentially only other evil PCs which to be the part of, what's the fun? It's merely jumping about doing more of the same with only self-assumed insidious intentions. I find the best RP comes from the conflict or the desire for, not the lack-thereof. I'm not saying in any way that I want my characters to all be out in the open concerning their alignment, no. For crying out loud, my paladin of Torm made excuses in his mind for Smog Valgoth's 'wardrobe' b/c he truly seeks to find good in others yet. However, if he was given the chance to out a villain where he saw one, he would without reluctance. I wish the same for all of my characters. Good and Evil are meant to fight. Good guys fight the hard fight, but Evil guys fight the bad fight. Maybe I've not been in the server long enough to have seen the intricacies of dire good and evil struggle and if so, I can't wait till I do. |
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Post by Kelandros Armelis on Dec 2, 2011 6:49:23 GMT -5
Wait! You've obviously slain their captors. What is more evil than letting them slowly starve to death locked up and unattended? What is more evil than sneering at them and saying ... "Bah .. a pesky elf ... let 'em rot"? By additionally inflicting a disease onto them and increase their suffering aswell as placing some food and water in front of their locked cells and have them see it go to waste while they crave for it and yet can´t reach it. Just to name something. I could add a few more but some may be not suitibal for the forum. In regards to conflict good vs evil, it is most of the time plots that determine that aspect, of course you can decide to engage some "villain"/"hero" on the road and call him out and challange him with all the grandeur of a honorable duel but then it is only between you two. The larger the groups the larger the "fight" and such can only be achieved through plots. Trust me, if your doing the wrong things and they are found out you will face opposition even to the extend that you can´t do anything but go into hiding because otherwise it means certain death for your character. |
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Post by lowstorm on Dec 2, 2011 9:21:52 GMT -5
I'll bring up an in game example of why you don't see the bad guys being bad.
We HAVE a character that's a very very well known evil. He burned some things down, etc. etc. He's been executed a few times. But there's no perma death system here. So the executions are, after a while shrugged off. Its no fault of him, or the DMs, or anyone else involved. But after a while it becomes 'how are you in towns' and 'banished again for the umpteenth time' and 'Will you just quit being so goddamn blatant'
He's shunned by most good guys, neutral guys, and evil guys. There's no getting around it. Hang out with him, you're automatically a bad guy. I don't even KNOW how many duels the man has been in. It goes on, and on. And really there's no end.
As a player of evil, I know that someday my character is going to be caught with her hand in the cookie jar. My only real hope is that its after she's made a big story for the world here to follow. So she can eventually either retire, OR take over a town and rule it with an iron fist-her own, of course.
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Post by kaltorac on Dec 2, 2011 9:31:12 GMT -5
One thing I've noticed as a constant is folks decrying the lack of XP/Quests for Evil PCs. Maybe there's just a general lack for all PCs then, because if you play an evil one, you actually have access to even more quests than a good or neutral one here.
To return to the OP though ... I'm not certain what faction changes folk think should occur in regards to an evil PC (and its asked often here). We begin straying into the territory of actually endorsing god modding if we do to much. I'll use the "rescue the elves" quest as an example.
This quest is not about good or evil. Its about fulfilling a contract. You talked to an NPC and offered to take up the quest to rescue his fellow elves. So you either decline to help or commit to help. Its that simple. Motivation for an evil PC need only be that they are showing how much superior they are to others by succeeding. The reward(s) given for completing the quest are actually "contract fulfillment payments". If you kill the captives instead, there does not need to be a reward IMO, because you've failed at fulfilling the cotract you took on.
What "Ebuls" really want though is freedom to cause mayhem and be rewarded. I.e., kill merchants, rob banks, swipe candy from the pockets of children and kick puppies ... and get XP for it. This isn't feasable unless the server as a whole promotes "god modding". I.e., PCs dictate the outcomes. DMs have to be involved in such activities to both monitor that they are done in a fair manner (E.g., the DM would at a minimum determine if there had been witnesses and if so, who or what might respond accordingly) and determine the level of success. A DM could also then disable the encounter so said merchant cannot respawn and thus a serverwide effect is seen. "We" cannot allow such to be automated here though. If it were, a few self centered asshats would (I guarantee it) simply use such a feature to ruin the module for others. (I.e., they'd make a blitz-run, killing every NPC most players depend on, leaving nowhere to sell loot, buy supplies, etc... .).
Now there are more than a few PWs that employ factions and reactions to various NPCs based on what a PC does, but these are not true RP modules despite which category they are found in GameSpy under. They are really Action, PvP, Arena or Social mods.
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zithlin
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Post by zithlin on Dec 2, 2011 10:48:17 GMT -5
Well, my entire point seems shallow now.  Maybe I've just lacked an expression of faith in the unseen. I intended to eventually ask of the possibility for the bandits in the woods to 'gain new leadership.' Since after all they clearly have a leader and such a man can be killed. And if not this, I'm sure it's a possibility to at least join them (In the sense of RP, I don't mean to say it's a possibility in the game mechanics, that is my faction question.) After all, if I'm about in the woods as an evil PC and the bandits attack me, there is always the chance that I spare one and intimidate and/or torture the information regarding his leader out of him. This isn't blatant in-your-face evil because, well, if I'm their leader I'd hardly be showing my face and running at passersby as much as them if at all. It's also beneficial for RP because it gives the bandits depth. When Than gave Vincent the quest to retrieve Damien's Journal from the crypt, that gave Vincent's crypt-creeping depth and made the RP intriguing when he had to get one of the other PCs to give him the book (They thought he wanted to 'enjoy' it!) That's the sort of RP I want, that struggle for my evil character to hide who he is or the struggle for survival after being found out! Otherwise, playing evil is hardly as entertaining as it should be. My only real hope is that its after she's made a big story for the world here to follow. So she can eventually either retire, OR take over a town and rule it with an iron fist-her own, of course. Well yes, I'm not saying I want my character to suffer some spectacular death early in his career, I want the same. My point is that while my actual character doesn't want to be found out, I want the chance to have a Good PC possibly question my character's motives and perhaps find him out; because that's why I RP evil. The fun is in the conflict or possibility of. The same for any of my good characters! If they saw somebody doing something evil, they'd have that struggle! Say I have a good character who hears of one of his friends he thought was really close having suddenly committed a terrible murder, he's going to have a wonderful RP struggle over his emotions and alignment! Say he witnesses a murder and is forced to draw steel on the woman he loves because he did not realize she was evil or (better still), thinks she is evil and fails to listen to her when she tries to explain she was forced (By threats or powerful blackmail or even a Geas!) That's what makes memorable moments to me. Those are moments that leave me remembering why it's so much fun to RP. Because it can get THAT real and THAT emotional. Trust me, if your doing the wrong things and they are found out you will face opposition even to the extend that you can´t do anything but go into hiding because otherwise it means certain death for your character. Call me a character masochist but that screams of fun for me. What's more fun than the challenge of truly having to keep your identity hidden? Say a Talossan cleric marches into town to perform The Fury in standard 'doom crow' attire and then flees town quickly, hiding in the Enclave. Let's say this same character then comes back to town soon there-after in his normal outfit 'wondering what happened.' I would RP the bluffing, let people know he seems out of breath. Point toward the fact that he seems to be admiring the carnage and destruction when nobody is looking. I don't want my character to want to be found out...But I do seek the realism of that possibility and to fish some other PCs into that intrigue. |
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Post by lowstorm on Dec 2, 2011 11:29:23 GMT -5
Being in disguise gets boring after the first four months or so. There's a few people that my character travels with that simply... got bored of it and challenged others by not disguising themselves. And there ARE ways to cause conflict without being automatically killed. My character for instance. Everyone KNOWS she's evil. And if they don't, the big red wings should tell them. Along with the fact that she openly proclaims the worship of Tiamat. An evil deity, but one that isn't illegal so the poor good guys can't DO anything to her, unless she does something evil. Which she HAS done. But... noone knows she was involved.  |
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Post by Savoie Faire on Dec 2, 2011 17:49:58 GMT -5
Being in disguise gets boring after the first four months or so. There's a few people that my character travels with that simply... got bored of it and challenged others by not disguising themselves. And there ARE ways to cause conflict without being automatically killed. My character for instance. Everyone KNOWS she's evil. And if they don't, the big red wings should tell them. Along with the fact that she openly proclaims the worship of Tiamat. An evil deity, but one that isn't illegal so the poor good guys can't DO anything to her, unless she does something evil. Which she HAS done. But... noone knows she was involved. This is the gist of my point: you can be as evil as you like, but don't get caught! |
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Post by Dobian on Dec 2, 2011 18:17:44 GMT -5
I don't think being known as an evil character is a sign at all that you have failed as an evil character. Some evil characters are sneaks and thieves, and others are overt in their philosophies and objectives. It's easy to do something bad and never get caught. You get a disguise, you log in many times when players who might be looking for you aren't on, NPCs are helpless, the many hundreds and even thousands of unrepresented people in the game world can't do anything about you. But this is a game, and to make it fun, of course an evil player will sometimes do things to put them at risk of getting caught, so it can be fun. Being in disguise really does get boring after awhile, I got bored with it myself. I would much rather have my evil character do something that creates some action and entertainment for everyone, than to just hide out in the Storm Horns or in plain sight in disguise and declare myself a "success".
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zithlin
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Post by zithlin on Dec 2, 2011 21:21:43 GMT -5
I don't think being known as an evil character is a sign at all that you have failed as an evil character. Some evil characters are sneaks and thieves, and others are overt in their philosophies and objectives. It's easy to do something bad and never get caught. You get a disguise, you log in many times when players who might be looking for you aren't on, NPCs are helpless, the many hundreds and even thousands of unrepresented people in the game world can't do anything about you. But this is a game, and to make it fun, of course an evil player will sometimes do things to put them at risk of getting caught, so it can be fun. Being in disguise really does get boring after awhile, I got bored with it myself. I would much rather have my evil character do something that creates some action and entertainment for everyone, than to just hide out in the Storm Horns or in plain sight in disguise and declare myself a "success". Yes. This is what my basic point is. I am simply looking for ways and means to drag Good players into the intrigue of my Evil PCs villainous deeds and to express my desire for other PCs to do the same. It inevitably leads to deep, unexpected RP. Which is the best kind of course. |
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Post by quelunia on Dec 2, 2011 21:56:56 GMT -5
Pal, read the great many posts of good versus bad and all that jazz.... Honestly the issue is a sore subject on the forums. I have been talking to a few players as my evil character has some restrictions some forced by me, and others through RP and a requirement to meet. Through the chatting I have come up with a few good ideas and been informed of some others. So, my best suggestion is to talk OOC with some of the good players and a few of the more approachable characters... not to much mind ya, but a little OOC chat to try and get things moving for your RP.
I had an excellent suggestion given to me last night by a budding friend, sometimes the main character on a account isnt willing to participate... however some players are willing to create new characters in order to give a target...for your evil plot. I had many of the same feelings as you are stating, but I took the advice of DMs and other players, also not all evil acts need be blatant and vile... some can be as simple as spreading a rumor and watch the suffering through the lie.
My character that is evil will never tell a lie, but its not because he has a moral standing on it... its because he thinks its far more entertaining to tell the truth.
And Kal, as I have not explored the entire module I give you the benefit of the doubt. You have done a great job improving things and fixing things. I know there are quit a few quests for evils, I just happen to have been in groups that always do the good quests.
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Post by tarus on Dec 3, 2011 0:10:39 GMT -5
Face it, if you are evil and known to be, you have failed as an evil character. The object of being a successful evil character is to not get caught. I totally disagree. |
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Post by Savoie Faire on Dec 3, 2011 6:50:12 GMT -5
Face it, if you are evil and known to be, you have failed as an evil character. The object of being a successful evil character is to not get caught. I totally disagree. I respect your right to disagree, but when your overt evil leads to either being ignored or PK'd by the good guys please don't complain to me about it. If you run around killing guardsmen and civillians, you should expect the repercussions which will eventually come and accept them. But when, for the sake of your fun, the 'Good Guys' have to either ignore known acts of Evil or ignore your character, you are having fun at the expense of other players' fun. This is counter to the first rule of FRC, by the way. If you are openly Evil but are not caught committing crimes, therein lies intrigue and character-building immersion. If you are secretly evil there are numerous plots you and the good guys can work together in, either as a team or as opposition, but in these cases your fun is not dependant upon the other player's metagame ignoring of events in their world. |
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Post by quelunia on Dec 3, 2011 9:53:34 GMT -5
Sometimes the overt evil deeds are meant to get a response. And some evil deeds just happen as it pertains to the chaotic alignment of some characters, not just CE aligned characters. Yes, the evil character should expect and be prepared for the repercussions. However commiting evil acts in full view of PCs\NPCs should be discouraged if it is RPd out properly.
As I said earlier, I used to complain and ask this same question, along with a good deal more. But my posts have been met with advice from the DM staff, and alot of attacks from the players of goodies that are misreading my thoughts. But through it all I have been given a great deal of advice by both good nuetral and evil players and have developed something that works for me. As an evil character as criminals in real life however you will always be on the fringe of the community. Its kind of like a this, evil players try to keep it hidden keep it secret except around each other, good guys try to infiltrate the evils.... then evils are found out... and most evils are vieing for the same thing which puts them in confrontation with other evils and the good guys want to stop the bad guys.... You lost yet? Thats how everyone else percieves the bad guys.... To much by to many. Find a niche that fits your style of play, and stick with them. My character Shesh has tried to incorporate alot of the new blood guys like the OPs main. Kelandros does as well when he knows of them. My main is like I have said before sitting on a knifes edge of sanity and corruption, NPCs that are around can be used as tools for your plots reguardless of whether a DM is on or not, if you RP every detail surely sooner or later a DM will see, and maybe interact. Also another tip to the OP, find a DM you feel comfortable with, talk with them. See what they might be willing to help you with, I have seen some amazing stuff and been part of a few of these player idea plots DMs help with. Not everytime is it to your advantage. Soemtimes a white dragon will show up and stomp a mud hole in your party, other times a Demon Lord will throw you through a portal to the abyss.... There are DMs that try to help, actually most of them will help were they can and if its justified.
I used to complain... now I mail ideas to the DM team. I chat with other players OOC to try and set a stage while working IG to achieve my goals. And lets face it if there are 2 or 3 DMs on they have a community of about 20 to 50 players depending on the time and server activity, so thats 1 DM per 5 to 15 players. Talk about multitasking.
In the end I would like to thank the Staff and the Player base as a whole for helping me adjust my line of thought, and help me mold my character. Evil as he is.
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Post by tarus on Dec 3, 2011 10:13:05 GMT -5
I respect your right to disagree, but when your overt evil leads to either being ignored or PK'd by the good guys please don't complain to me about it. If you run around killing guardsmen and civillians, you should expect the repercussions which will eventually come and accept them. But when, for the sake of your fun, the 'Good Guys' have to either ignore known acts of Evil or ignore your character, you are having fun at the expense of other players' fun. This is counter to the first rule of FRC, by the way. If you are openly Evil but are not caught committing crimes, therein lies intrigue and character-building immersion. If you are secretly evil there are numerous plots you and the good guys can work together in, either as a team or as opposition, but in these cases your fun is not dependant upon the other player's metagame ignoring of events in their world. You see it all as black and white. All my evil PC's are blatenly evil yet none of them have been clobbered by the good guys or arrested on a regular basis. None of them are being beheaded by the athorities and he's never been banished from town.... yet everyone knows they are evil. Being evil and blatenly commiting crimes are two VERY different things. I've had good pc's rot in jail for crimes done in town against evil people. I've had evil pc's not commit crimes and still do evil things that there are no laws for. Being evil has nothing to do with being lawful. I'm sure there are people who may WANT to throw Tonall in jail, but Tonall hasn't broken any laws, yet it's plain that he's not a good aligned PC. I don't think I've FAILED by letting people know about his lack of morals. |
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Post by Savoie Faire on Dec 4, 2011 4:59:28 GMT -5
Perhaps I misspoke then. I should have said, "Caught committing crimes..."
There are some players who perform very well in their roles as evil PC's, and to these I give applause, you help to make the server better.
My point is entirely driven at the guys who stand in Greatgaunt and say, "Oh, I've killed Bentin dozens of times, haven't I big guy?"
How can a player of a 'Good' character react to that? How can he incorporate that into his roleplay?
I want to take a moment to point out the opposite side of this coin is also tarnished. I have seen 'Good' PC's who happen to know a character is evil go out of their way to create conflict even if the player of the 'Evil' character did not break the law. This also detracts from the fun of the game.
Let us assume that Player E stands in the city market and proselytizes in the name of Tharizdun, (not an FRC deity, so don't do this!) Player G witnesses this, but knows no laws were broken. Player G confronts and harasses Player E until Player E, quite in character, fights him, and thus begins the cycle of escallating conflict, based on nothing but the knowledge that Player E is 'Evil.'
This is at the least a 'Chaotic' act, and in extreme cases, some of which I have witnessed as player and as DM, an 'Evi'l one. If I catch a player harassing the player of an 'Evil' character or inciting him to violence, I will make appropriate alignment shifts as I deem the situation merits. Just because he's 'Evil' is not a 'Good' reason to incite or harass the player or his character.
If one were truly 'Good' one would attempt to redeem the lost soul rather than kill him, and while I have seen this on rare occasions, it is a very rare occasion.
Applying this to NPC's and quests, however, is the issue at hand, and I will see about affording more opportunities for the bad guys to be bad guys in my events. Not that I have ever tried to discourage or limit evil roleplay, but I think the perception by players of evil characters, (justified by experience, I'm sure,) is that DM's reward 'Good' and punish 'Evil' so they act accordingly while in an event.
As a point of token proof of my intent: long before this thread was made I helped to create a lowbie group called the Greatgaunt Volunteers for the express purpose of creating an environment where characters of all alignments can work together or at odds as the situation and their roleplay permit. It is my intention to reward good play, no matter if it's 'Evil' or not, and to create an environment that welcomes all players to participate. It's taken a few bumpy turns so far, but we're still working on it!
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Maybe I've just lacked an expression of faith in the unseen. I intended to eventually ask of the possibility for the bandits in the woods to 'gain new leadership.' Since after all they clearly have a leader and such a man can be killed. And if not this, I'm sure it's a possibility to at least join them (In the sense of RP, I don't mean to say it's a possibility in the game mechanics, that is my faction question.) After all, if I'm about in the woods as an evil PC and the bandits attack me, there is always the chance that I spare one and intimidate and/or torture the information regarding his leader out of him. This isn't blatant in-your-face evil because, well, if I'm their leader I'd hardly be showing my face and running at passersby as much as them if at all. It's also beneficial for RP because it gives the bandits depth. When Than gave Vincent the quest to retrieve Damien's Journal from the crypt, that gave Vincent's crypt-creeping depth and made the RP intriguing when he had to get one of the other PCs to give him the book (They thought he wanted to 'enjoy' it!) That's the sort of RP I want, that struggle for my evil character to hide who he is or the struggle for survival after being found out! Otherwise, playing evil is hardly as entertaining as it should be.
