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Post by Syd's Blue Sky on Jun 18, 2011 23:18:34 GMT -5
That's one of the worst dungeons I've seen anywhere ever... So... par for the course.
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Post by kaltorac on Jun 18, 2011 23:18:36 GMT -5
The re-made gargoyle dungeon (who's name escapes me at the moment), the one near Valkurs Roar has a door to the last part that has a DC of 35. So rogues only to get in. I will say that it has been more than awhile since I tried that place so it might have been changed, but probably not. Traps over a DC of 35 require a rogue. Not sure about locks. If so, it still falls into the "anyone" can category. |
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Post by Syd's Blue Sky on Jun 18, 2011 23:31:01 GMT -5
Yeah, if you get stuck behind locks take some cross class and get gear. I don't think I have come up against any dc 35+ traps on doors needed to progress ever, so you get a thumbs up from me in that respect.
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Post by gathera on Jun 19, 2011 0:02:09 GMT -5
Its still a skill check that will be beyond any class that must cross-class the open locks skill for the character levels the dungeon is designed for. Hence the need for a rogue.
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Post by Syd's Blue Sky on Jun 19, 2011 19:35:20 GMT -5
That's one of the bad things about trying to solo stuff, though. If you really want to be a really badass solo char you're gonna need some skills to pull it off sometimes.
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Post by tarus on Jun 19, 2011 19:57:41 GMT -5
The re-made gargoyle dungeon (who's name escapes me at the moment), the one near Valkurs Roar has a door to the last part that has a DC of 35. So rogues only to get in. I will say that it has been more than awhile since I tried that place so it might have been changed, but probably not. Traps over a DC of 35 require a rogue. Not sure about locks. If so, it still falls into the "anyone" can category. Actually, as a cross class skill, non-pickers would need to be level 72 to open a door that is beyond the ability of a Knock spell. This is without a dex bonus or item bonuses, of course. It would certainly require a max level PC to attain it with all bonuses, skill focus, and epic skill focus OR saving up your skill points for a single rogue level to dump them into pick locks- which is extremely frowned upon. I'm not trying to be argumentative... just saying that only class skills can get that high. |
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Post by EDM Neo on Jun 19, 2011 20:41:56 GMT -5
Really, DC 35 is fairly manageable cross class.
Lets take a level 8 ranger. 5 cross-class skill ranks, they can reach DC 25. A +5 dexterity bonus, DC 30. +2 rogue gloves, DC 32. Thieves' tools +3 (fairly common), DC 35. Things don't really get unrealistic until DCs get closer to the 40-50 range.
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Post by tarus on Jun 19, 2011 21:26:22 GMT -5
Really, DC 35 is fairly manageable cross class. Lets take a level 8 ranger. 5 cross-class skill ranks, they can reach DC 25. A +5 dexterity bonus, DC 30. +2 rogue gloves, DC 32. Thieves' tools +3 (fairly common), DC 35. Things don't really get unrealistic until DCs get closer to the 40-50 range. You're right.. I forgot about the d20 roll. Thanks, Neo |
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Post by danifae on Jun 20, 2011 11:01:59 GMT -5
No one is going to spend 200k just to buy spot gear to add on top of True Sight so that they can finally spot those rogues when using True Sight. lol, actually, i'm probably the only one that would with Dani. I did get spot gear, helm and a cloak, but previous to the TS change. Though I think I still would get the gear even after. Only because it was my intention to make her a spotter from the beginning.  Though it was a painful thing to do for a cleric. |
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Post by canuckkane on Jun 20, 2011 19:19:40 GMT -5
People seem to be overlooking the fact that True Seeing can now give casters an advantage to finding hidden doors, etc. where it never did before. I personally don't mind the change.
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Post by EDM Neo on Jun 20, 2011 19:31:24 GMT -5
I think that detecting hidden doors uses Search rather than Spot.
That said, I don't really much mind the True Seeing change... in regards to that particular change, I'm much more concerned about that Greater Sanctuary now has absolutely no counters than I am about that it'll make rogues too strong. There are still plenty of other ways for mages to find sneaking people, if you get creative.
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Post by Charon's Claw on Jun 20, 2011 19:36:26 GMT -5
It gives a bonus to both search and spot.
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Post by EDM Neo on Jun 20, 2011 19:38:06 GMT -5
Really?
That's practically a buff, then, it means mages can detect traps much better than rogues can. Huh. *scratches head*
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Post by EDM Entori on Jun 20, 2011 19:45:42 GMT -5
I think that detecting hidden doors uses Search rather than Spot. That said, I don't really much mind the True Seeing change... in regards to that particular change, I'm much more concerned about that Greater Sanctuary now has absolutely no counters than I am about that it'll make rogues too strong. There are still plenty of other ways for mages to find sneaking people, if you get creative.yeah if greater sanc has no counter it should be round per level. |
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Post by tarus on Jun 20, 2011 19:48:40 GMT -5
indeed. Totally agree. Greater Sanctuary by all definitions should be detectable by True Seeing.
Also, non-rogue mages and clerics still can't detect traps over 35 DC so rogues are still king on that, Neo.
Edit: or is it that they can't disarm them?
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Post by Thrym on Jun 20, 2011 19:53:42 GMT -5
From my experience with Brannon, I can tell you .... They can detect, build, set and take apart traps over DC 35, just not disarm them. Makes no IC sense, but oh well.  |
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Post by EDM Neo on Jun 20, 2011 20:05:29 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure they can even recover them, if they can beat the DC, just not actually disable.
Rogues will still by far be the best trap disarmers, just, high level casters will never accidentally step in one again.
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Post by Lokarn on Jun 20, 2011 20:37:28 GMT -5
The bonus to search should be much less, 1/2 levels IMO still a buff, still makes them less able to find traps than the class in NWN that is designed to do so. If a rogue is setting a whole room full of traps they are metagaming. A trap is designed to be hidden well and so it takes up a small area, planting 50 traps in a small area would look obvious, and no intelligent being would ever walk into that room. Please DMs if you see this, mix it up a bit and have the "intelligent" being toss a rock into the room full of traps, then emote that they all go off, causing a chain reaction and thus causing something akin to hellball to go off in the room. |
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Post by probablyamage on Jun 20, 2011 22:39:47 GMT -5
I stepped on a trap with a buffed 60+ search Lustig at a walking pace recently. It didn't show up until it was a step or two away, and I was typing. Also, since it was brought up, with cross class skills and the right items, you could recover traps that you aren't able to disable. Is there a way to make Greater Sanctuary spottable without having to completely nerf the spell?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2011 23:51:01 GMT -5
I have been watching this thread for awhile. Normally I dont throw in my two cents because I tend to want to stay in the back ground and I have seen many small comments turn into knife fights across a table on here. I for one like the idea that high level characters that arnt rogues cant disarm traps that are such high dc. In pnp it works that way. And the reason is because that is what the rogues job is. I dont make theives that are non mages try to do mages job because they cant. Sure use magic device lets you dabble but thats as far as you get.
Also the whole lockpicking thing. Sometimes there are locks that should require a theif to go down into a dungeon with a group to get past. First it gives a reason for a theif to be needed to actaully go with where they otherwise might not go. Like to fight undead.
A few pages back it was also pointed out that its not easy to be a rogue. Which is also true. I play Faven and he can not go anywhere without someone. He cant take on the orcs by himself at 14th level. And most times not even with one other person. Hence why traps help the theif get by. Traps are the rogues spells basically and there arnt many different kinds. You wanna talk powerful. Lets talk the plethera of spells that casters get. Heck a preist can be a better fighter and better tank then any fighter out there with a couple feats and a few spells. If theives are so great why are there so few theives on the server. Hence the complaints that having to go find a theif to take with you into dungeon "X" is such a problem. I fear the day when a group going into a dungeon can look to a skillful theif and say, "No thanks we dont need you I have this wand that basically makes you obsolete" aka Knock.
Also something was said about it being to easy for rogues to aquire traps. How about the idea that a spell caster can just sit down for ten seconds to rest in game and boom has all his spells that require no spell components. It takes time for those theives to go out and find all those traps and components. You also have to take into account that those players have to spend more points in INT so that they can build the skill points to make, disarm, set trap, and find traps. That is four different skills that must be highly devoted to.
Also I love the idea that True seeing has been changed. The fact that another of the theives main abilities was being jipped by a single spell that became widely used. It levels the playing feild and makes an effort for players to see the hidden rogue instead of just a boom I see you... I know you have spent your intire career honing your skills at hiding and being unseen but I can just bypass that with a simple spell.
This isnt just me but I am voicing a couple ppls complaints on the issue that I have heard. Most of us just sit on the side lines because we dont want to say anything. If you feel simular feelings please speak up.
There is alot said here. I just wanted some of these things to be heard. Again I am not one for saying much of anything on the forum for fear of dealing with arguments. I play this game for fun and to relax from a stressful job.
*retreats to the shadows*
P.S. Sorry I refer to the Rogue class as Theives. I am much to use to 2ed dnd.
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Post by EDM Deliverance on Jun 21, 2011 0:02:59 GMT -5
I agree with most things said here by Faven. The rogues that I do know out of character struggle to stay alive by themselves. If not for "meat sheilds" a term commonly used by Whisper (sorry Tiberius). Rogues really have no other "ace" in their sleeves other than traps. They are quite common I commonly hear of theives having excess of 50 traps in their inventory....That said, I believe once you buy a sword you have an infinite amount of swings. Why not make it some what simple to have things that are very useful. Hell players with the heal skill can obtain heal kits incredibly easily. This said I think knocking the bottom off of true seeing isn't the answer. It should make it more even to find a rogue around the caster lvl with true seeing on, and let the luck go back to the dice rolls. That said, I also think perhaps you could limit the duration of True Seeing....alot. To balance things out. I do not want to be jumped by 3 rogues and not have a chance to atleast fight back. An untended rogue is the scariest thing in the game without deathspells...As far as locks go why not script that you can doors and chests (given a chance for loot inside to be damaged in chests) that can be bashable. Look at the juggernaught...point made. I agree that traps don't make my experience more in depth but it does keep a wide array of classes around this server.
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Post by tarus on Jun 21, 2011 0:59:48 GMT -5
alright. I have one final point to make here. Again, this is my opinion. A very strong opinion as I take this as fact in my own mind.
Rogues in parties have more of a use than to just pick a lock. Rogues have a tough time solo'ing, yes. I know because I'm quite good at building rogues. I know all about their weaknesses. They CAN solo- you just have to REALLY watch yourself and be fast on the keyboard!
But in a party? Picking a lock is the LAST reason I want to invite a rogue! They rock! Having a rogue who KNOWS how to flank is invaluable in a party and guess what? You can't get that with a wand. You actually need a rogue for that!
If I can get away with using two references to World of Warcraft in a day, if you bring a warrior in full plate to tank, a cleric for healing, and a mage and rogue for DPS (damage per second), you have a very solid party.
In short... if a player actually thinks that his rogue is only good for his skill set then he's not being played properly. PM me. I'll give some pointers... gotta go - food's done
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Post by EDM Neo on Jun 21, 2011 1:57:10 GMT -5
Just acknowledging it, on a side note... for everything that I've said about rogues, yeah, wizards/sorcerers/clerics are FAR more powerful. Overpowered, in fact, really, but they're a matter for a different topic; my point wasn't that rogues are on the same level as they are, just that they weren't underpowered compared with classes like fighter and ranger.
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Post by lowstorm on Jun 21, 2011 7:31:25 GMT -5
That's why I stayed silent on the topic.
Faven and amped said what I wanted to say much better than I EVER could.
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Post by EDM Deliverance on Jun 21, 2011 7:44:59 GMT -5
Its like this. Rogues may be able to solo but it is indeed more difficult than most classes. And yes rogues kick more ass than the bfg in doom (my references are better). Point is maybe not everyone is on the same skill level here? Instead of worrying about what they are doing, why not just make a separate thread as a guide for people new to playing rogues. I myself have never played one to its fullest potential, so I would be very excited to have someone give me a few tips and pointers. The thought of playing one on this server has crossed my mind a few times along with a mage and a bard.
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Post by verycoldbeer on Jun 21, 2011 10:27:34 GMT -5
Alright I have probably a silly question to ask.
But as it was explained to me you get a D20 to your listen/spot skill to beat someone's hide score and that the hide score is static they don't get a d20 added on, is this right?
I'm not familiar enough with this server and all it's gear to say anything one way or the other, I just know that on another server if I made a spotter mage, unless I rolled low I could spot anyone on the server.
But if PAM is saying that the scrolls make it impossible to spot a rogue?
I play probably a crap build cause of RP for my Rogue on this server she is a Ranger, Rogue, Fighter.. I don't have the skill points to dump into everything honestly.
Traps are the only way I can actually solo or even just go out with that one other special elf.. *makes doe eyes at Mene*. But this isn't about me, and I don't know enough about the mechanics.. and if it gets harder for my rogue then it does.. I'll not cry.
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Post by verycoldbeer on Jun 21, 2011 11:15:37 GMT -5
I have been watching this thread for awhile. Normally I dont throw in my two cents because I tend to want to stay in the back ground and I have seen many small comments turn into knife fights across a table on here. I for one like the idea that high level characters that arnt rogues cant disarm traps that are such high dc. In pnp it works that way. And the reason is because that is what the rogues job is. I dont make theives that are non mages try to do mages job because they cant. Sure use magic device lets you dabble but thats as far as you get. Also the whole lockpicking thing. Sometimes there are locks that should require a theif to go down into a dungeon with a group to get past. First it gives a reason for a theif to be needed to actaully go with where they otherwise might not go. Like to fight undead. A few pages back it was also pointed out that its not easy to be a rogue. Which is also true. I play Faven and he can not go anywhere without someone. He cant take on the orcs by himself at 14th level. And most times not even with one other person. Hence why traps help the theif get by. Traps are the rogues spells basically and there arnt many different kinds. You wanna talk powerful. Lets talk the plethera of spells that casters get. Heck a preist can be a better fighter and better tank then any fighter out there with a couple feats and a few spells. If theives are so great why are there so few theives on the server. Hence the complaints that having to go find a theif to take with you into dungeon "X" is such a problem. I fear the day when a group going into a dungeon can look to a skillful theif and say, "No thanks we dont need you I have this wand that basically makes you obsolete" aka Knock. Also something was said about it being to easy for rogues to aquire traps. How about the idea that a spell caster can just sit down for ten seconds to rest in game and boom has all his spells that require no spell components. It takes time for those theives to go out and find all those traps and components. You also have to take into account that those players have to spend more points in INT so that they can build the skill points to make, disarm, set trap, and find traps. That is four different skills that must be highly devoted to. Also I love the idea that True seeing has been changed. The fact that another of the theives main abilities was being jipped by a single spell that became widely used. It levels the playing feild and makes an effort for players to see the hidden rogue instead of just a boom I see you... I know you have spent your intire career honing your skills at hiding and being unseen but I can just bypass that with a simple spell. This isnt just me but I am voicing a couple ppls complaints on the issue that I have heard. Most of us just sit on the side lines because we dont want to say anything. If you feel simular feelings please speak up. There is alot said here. I just wanted some of these things to be heard. Again I am not one for saying much of anything on the forum for fear of dealing with arguments. I play this game for fun and to relax from a stressful job. *retreats to the shadows* P.S. Sorry I refer to the Rogue class as Theives. I am much to use to 2ed dnd. I will also say that I agree with this dude as well, but please feel free to point out why this logic if flawed. Danke. |
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Post by Thrym on Jun 21, 2011 12:01:14 GMT -5
I think the last few posters missunderstood the intent of this thread.
No one advocates nerfing rogues. What this is about is that recent changes keep making them more necessary, at the cost of everyone else's fun.
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Post by petrie74 on Jun 21, 2011 12:08:12 GMT -5
I have been watching this thread for awhile. Normally I dont throw in my two cents because I tend to want to stay in the back ground and I have seen many small comments turn into knife fights across a table on here. I for one like the idea that high level characters that arnt rogues cant disarm traps that are such high dc. In pnp it works that way. And the reason is because that is what the rogues job is. I dont make theives that are non mages try to do mages job because they cant. Sure use magic device lets you dabble but thats as far as you get. Also the whole lockpicking thing. Sometimes there are locks that should require a theif to go down into a dungeon with a group to get past. First it gives a reason for a theif to be needed to actaully go with where they otherwise might not go. Like to fight undead. A few pages back it was also pointed out that its not easy to be a rogue. Which is also true. I play Faven and he can not go anywhere without someone. He cant take on the orcs by himself at 14th level. And most times not even with one other person. Hence why traps help the theif get by. Traps are the rogues spells basically and there arnt many different kinds. You wanna talk powerful. Lets talk the plethera of spells that casters get. Heck a preist can be a better fighter and better tank then any fighter out there with a couple feats and a few spells. If theives are so great why are there so few theives on the server. Hence the complaints that having to go find a theif to take with you into dungeon "X" is such a problem. I fear the day when a group going into a dungeon can look to a skillful theif and say, "No thanks we dont need you I have this wand that basically makes you obsolete" aka Knock. Also something was said about it being to easy for rogues to aquire traps. How about the idea that a spell caster can just sit down for ten seconds to rest in game and boom has all his spells that require no spell components. It takes time for those theives to go out and find all those traps and components. You also have to take into account that those players have to spend more points in INT so that they can build the skill points to make, disarm, set trap, and find traps. That is four different skills that must be highly devoted to. Also I love the idea that True seeing has been changed. The fact that another of the theives main abilities was being jipped by a single spell that became widely used. It levels the playing feild and makes an effort for players to see the hidden rogue instead of just a boom I see you... I know you have spent your intire career honing your skills at hiding and being unseen but I can just bypass that with a simple spell. This isnt just me but I am voicing a couple ppls complaints on the issue that I have heard. Most of us just sit on the side lines because we dont want to say anything. If you feel simular feelings please speak up. There is alot said here. I just wanted some of these things to be heard. Again I am not one for saying much of anything on the forum for fear of dealing with arguments. I play this game for fun and to relax from a stressful job. *retreats to the shadows* P.S. Sorry I refer to the Rogue class as Theives. I am much to use to 2ed dnd. I would have to agree with much of what is said here. Playing a rogue is fun and rewarding, but it's also challenging. All those skill points you've spent. All the rp gone into learning to trap and lockpick. It's often frustrating to finally get to that point where you're needed. FINALLY! There's a locked door and this is your moment rogue! Just walk up and show them that there -is- a reason they brought you. Now's your time to dazzle them with your amazing ski- Oh wait. That fighter has already unlocked it. And the wizard is holding a knock scroll. Nevermind. Just go back to standing there silently in the shadows. I would also agree that there is much more to a rogue than just traps and locks. |
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Post by verycoldbeer on Jun 21, 2011 12:15:01 GMT -5
I think the last few posters missunderstood the intent of this thread. No one advocates nerfing rogues. What this is about is that recent changes keep making them more necessary, at the cost of everyone else's fun. I don't think that a dungeon should be made (and I don't think the DMs either belive or CC would of never posted that thing about the thing..) That can't be completed without a rogue, but I like that fact that some are made to where having a rogue is very useful for Traps, Locks things of that nature. I like using my skillz, not just trying to get in that sneak attack.. I guess.. but yeah, I don't think a dungeon should be made that can't be completed without one because of a door or something. |
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Though it was a painful thing to do for a cleric.
