Rogues were awesome to begin with

[Thrym]

Okay, so this has been going on for a few months now, and I seriously have to ask:

What is up with this incredible ammount of rogue support currently?

Rogues were always a great class. Without serious optimization, there is no way for any class to match their damage output. Without wasting hundreds of thousands of gold on anti stealth gear, there is no way to spot them without true sight, and even with that gear, only a select few classes have a chance of finding them. Traps are so incredibly broken they make Bigby cry himself to sleep at night, and they are easy to aquire too.

And on top of that, they are the only ones who don't need wands of persistant blade and knock to get past any lock, because we don't have bashable doors on FRC.

But in the past few months, there have been lots of changes to make a class that was way, way better then fighter, barbarian, ranger and who knows what to begin with even better.

Lots of random traps. Those are annoying to anyone who is not a rogue, and I've seen rogues get annoyed at them too, because they are frequently bugged. They hinder RP in dungeons because you can't look at your keyboard for just a moment without your character blowing up if you're going first.

Lots of locks that don't make IC sense, because any fighter with should be able to just pulverize the door. Now we have knock nerfed too, so you really, really need a rogue, because it doesn't matter if you can punch dents into adamant or cast ninth circle spells, there's no way to get past that door without a rogue.

True sight was nerfed. This makes rogues seriously unfindable. Now you may say 'But Thrym, you can skill spot/listen and buy equipment to increase it!' ... except no, you can't. Barely anyone has listen/spot as class skills, and more importantly: Hide/MS depend on Dexterity. Dexterity is the best stat of basically any rogue. Half the high end dex items on this server add a Hide/MS bonus in addition to boosting it's main stat. A rogue at the same time boosts his combat and sneaking skills by buying the same stuff. Other classes have to spend ludacrous sums of money in addition to their own combat equipment, and then can just maybe find a sneak a few levels below them.

More traps in the game also means more traps for the rogues, and traps are just so flat out broken I won't even go into talking about them. 'Trapping' makes spamming forceful hand look fair.

Rogues were always awesome. They easily outdamage basically everyone but optimized Weaponmasters, Clerics and Pallies. The rogue can set traps, UMD all sorts of wands and scrolls, and use steath to be better then invisible. If he bothers, he can have insane AC, and getting your sneak attacks is trivially easy at mid levels.

Rogues aren't 'horrible at soloing'. If your rogue is bad at soloing, then I'm sorry, your rogue is not being played to his full potential, and while that is certainly your right to do as a roleplayer, it's not a reason to make everyone elses game worse.

They are not bad in a party - they skewer stuff far faster then the fighters, and unlike the fighters actually have abilities that are not 'kill things', as stated above.

I find this overemphasis on traps, locks and other rogue-stuff currently is making my gaming experience flat out worse, and my current character both has rogue levels and is travelling with someone with more rogue levels. Many of us don't want to play rogues, and many of us consider traps just plain boring.

A trap in NWN isn't that awesome trap you find in pen and paper where everyone in the party has great fun trying to figure out a way past, it's a red area on the floor that you either have someone who can disarm or trigger, use a healkit and walk on. If I see a trap in NWN, I seriously just don't care. It doesn't enhance my game, it just means 'wait five seconds for the rogue to get done' or 'use healkit'.

And a door simply is not an appropiate obstacle for a level 10+ char to begin with, so if you nerf knock, at least make them bashable. I've seen placeables on FRC that were resistant to non physical damage, and I think the combat dummies respawn, so why not make your DC 40 locked door Hardness 20 and have it respawn, so that people who are not rogues have a way past it?

There. That was a lot of text, but I'm sure there are a lot of people who agree and don't like the direction we are currently going. Rogue is a great class. It has always been a great class. They don't need pampering. Especially not pampering that makes the game worse for everyone else.

[EDM Neo]

I had been working on a post for this myself, so, pasting what I had here.

I just thought I'd make the point that rogues are useful for more than just opening locks and disabling traps.

They by far have superior damage output to most fighter or even barbarian based characters when they've opportunity to flank (weapon masters aside, typically), and if built for it they can match or nearly match most real warrior characters in a straight fight (high dexterity, weapon finesse, tumble as a class skill, and properly chosen feats give superior AC and comparable AB).

Rogues can at least in part alleviate the need for a caster (UMD for wands of protection from evil, death ward, improved invisibility, etc), and the utility they provide in scouting and with traps can make it much easier to defeat even otherwise very challenging encounters piecemeal.

They're also much more capable of besting enemy casters than characters built as fighter or barbarian tend to be. Stealth and superior damage output with sneak attacks makes them more easily able to kill them before any spells are cast, evasion gives them much greater survivability, and UMD lets them avoid mind spells and use darkness to prevent themselves from being targeted.

It's nice for everyone to have some things that they do far better than everyone else, but I don't think that you should need a rogue to complete every dungeon, or anything along those lines, any more so than it is for other classes at least. I know that this the objective of the recent changes, but I just thought I'd make a more explicit point of it, as until a few high DC locked doors are tweaked (which, yes, I know kalbaern has said is in the works), this is what the change to knock does. They already have a lot going for them as a class, being mechanically comparable to other classes in terms of combat ability but while also having a great deal of utility.

The approach I've seen for making open lock and disable trap useful that I've liked most was only having rogue-only locks or traps on strictly optional objectives, like an off to the side room with a little bit of extra treasure (the hidden room in Kelemvor's Garden with the gauntlet of traps springs to mind - not only is it optional, but it's a puzzle; you can't just disable everything, you need to examine the traps and figure the best way to get past them with minimal damage) or a secret passage to let you bypass another obstacle.

In my opinion, this is far better than making them mandatory to actually get through dungeons at all; it provides a motivation to bring them along, as there should be for all classes, but you can still manage without, much along the same lines as the ranger/druid only resting areas that there has been talk of adding in the near future.

[tarus]

in PnP, my favorite knock spell is Disintegrate.

[iangallowglas]

I agree with Thyrm and Neo. No point in adding on to what they said.

[jensmann]

+1 to the first two posts

Edit: got beaten my Ian, by not even a minute.

[ConcreteSequential]

Thrymm, Neo,

Thank you. You both put into words the thoughts that refused to organize themselves enough for me to type them out.

I would also add the point that this makes it difficult for atypical parties that by choice, RP considerations, or time zone necessity, are outside the box.

JMO, enjoy the game.

[dmthann]

I would like to see chests, doors, and other things allowed to be smashed open here. That would solve the knock issue. I was one of the ones that felt knock was to powerful as it sat. It really took any real reason to have a rogue in the party for locks out of the equation completely. Not sure what we can do for it as of now, perhaps raise the DC? All things are being considered and things can change back if it's felt it's needed.

Perception gear is coming, and will be added/upgraded beyond what we currently have. There are no plans on not providing a better way to spot those that are sneaking.

[Thrym]

The thing is, offering perception gear just plain does not work.

Look, a mid level rogue wants to spend his money. He buys himself a pair of boots of silence (dex, ms), or one of them dex/hide cloaks, because it boosts his most important stat, and then it boosts stealth on a sidenote.

Another char of the same level, even if he has full ranks in listen/spot, likely can't afford to buy items boosting it, because he needs to buy his own equipment.

The rogue basically gets bonus hide/ms for free while buying his combat equipment, the potential spotter would have to compromise being good at his actual job.

[EDM Neo]

Jun 18, 2011 11:18:08 GMT -5 @dmthann said:

I would like to see chests, doors, and other things allowed to be smashed open here. That would solve the knock issue. I was one of the ones that felt knock was to powerful as it sat. It really took any real reason to have a rogue in the party for locks out of the equation completely. Not sure what we can do for it as of now, perhaps raise the DC? All things are being considered and things can change back if it's felt it's needed.

I think that 35 is a fine point for knock, actually... but only as long as there are no unbreakable doors with DC 36+ locks that actually prevent you from completing a dungeon. I don't think that unknockable locks on optional chests or doors that lead to optional areas within a dungeon are as big of a deal.

Jun 18, 2011 11:18:08 GMT -5 @dmthann said:

Perception gear is coming, and will be added/upgraded beyond what we currently have. There are no plans on not providing a better way to spot those that are sneaking.

More perception gear would be welcome.

As Thrym explained, though, unless it's at least on occasion available on items that also provide other useful bonuses, either it will go unused or people who bought them will be otherwise gimping themselves much more so than rogues and rangers do by buying stealth gear. It's a significantly "stronger" option for a rogue to buy a cloak with +2 dex and +6 hide for 70k than it is for a ranger to buy a cloak with +6 spot for 50k and nothing else, just to use the items currently available on the module as an example.

(disclaimer: the 70k and 50k were guesses off the top of my head, I don't remember the exact numbers)

[lowstorm]

I only want to say that playing a rogue isn't as easy as you're all making it.

[tarus]

We need good perception helmets

Helm of the Watcher
Armour Class +3 (Deflection)
Spot +6
Listen +6
Price: 80,000 gold (slightly more than a typical +3 helm)

Stuff like that would make perception gear equal to stealth gear. Including the price It's just not a mystery that stealth gear would need to cost 3 times as much to be as worthless as our perception gear currently is.

[jensmann]

Jun 18, 2011 11:53:14 GMT -5 lowstorm said:

I only want to say that playing a rogue isn't as easy as you're all making it.

No class can be played easily. all classes have thier tricks and styles. some look easier then others. Rogues are a variety of skillsets and talents and as such one can easily get the wrong impression.

[probablyamage]

A small side note to the True Sight thing mentioned. With it, my epic mage Lustig couldn't usually spot the epic sneak Dusk. That it was possible was nice. Three very easily obtainable scrolls would bump Dusk's hide and move silently by 24 points though. When you consider that, any mid level rogue can sneak past any True Sight mage who hasn't spent 200,000 on spot equipment, or cross classed in it.

On the knock issue, I more or less agree with Neo. I think a better solution would have been to remove the extremely cheap Knock items in the first place. If people needed to use a caster for them (And casters of all sorts HATE having to prepare Knocks), it would have changed things. As it is though, I'm just hoping that the dozen or so locked doors that bar passage through dungeons are fixed (discounting the Necropolis, where it's more like 40 very difficult locks barring the way)

[tarus]

Jun 18, 2011 11:53:14 GMT -5 lowstorm said:

I only want to say that playing a rogue isn't as easy as you're all making it.

It's no harder than leveling up a mage. Also, Rogues aren't the only sneaking class, either.

[tarus]

Jun 18, 2011 12:29:53 GMT -5 probablyamage said:

On the knock issue, I more or less agree with Neo. I think a better solution would have been to remove the extremely cheap Knock items in the first place. If people needed to use a caster for them (And casters of all sorts HATE having to prepare Knocks), it would have changed things. As it is though, I'm just hoping that the dozen or so locked doors that bar passage through dungeons are fixed (discounting the Necropolis, where it's more like 40 very difficult locks barring the way)

Knock wands are easily made, though. Sold to anyone who takes a single class in the arcane witchery, they make great door openers for only 6,000 gold. Yes, I always hated preparing knocks. But with Craft wand, the wand easily pays for itself.... well, before the change. I'm not sure how many rare loot chests I'll be able to open now. But before it was as easy as pie...

Blueberry pie.... with a very light flaky crust sprinkled with powdered sugar.... mmmmmmm .... what was I talking about?

[FORSETIS]

So my main character being a rogue this caught my attention and I read through some of it quickly, and I saw that a couple people said more or less that its not fair about the hole true sight potions only giving a bonus to spot or whatever. that its still not enough to see most sneaks. I just wanted to say that if you dont like it, put more points into spot =P your character cant be good at everything. And I personally like the fact that now my journeymen rogue can move through the streets unseen if he wanted, without worry of being spotted by a apprentice mage with TS up. I think it makes more sense this way. Just my thoughts.

[tarus]

Jun 18, 2011 13:04:18 GMT -5 FORSETIS said:

So my main character being a rogue this caught my attention and I read through some of it quickly, and I saw that a couple people said more or less that its not fair about the hole true sight potions only giving a bonus to spot or whatever. that its still not enough to see most sneaks. I just wanted to say that if you dont like it, put more points into spot =P your character cant be good at everything. And I personally like the fact that now my journeymen rogue can move through the streets unseen if he wanted, without worry of being spotted by a apprentice mage with TS up. I think it makes more sense this way. Just my thoughts.

This is what we're talking about though... The argument goes both ways...

Let's turn it around...

"If you want to be sneaky, put more points into hide and move silently" See? With that, you don't need stealth gear. You can just put more points into stealth.

[Thrym]

Jun 18, 2011 13:04:18 GMT -5 FORSETIS said:

So my main character being a rogue this caught my attention and I read through some of it quickly, and I saw that a couple people said more or less that its not fair about the hole true sight potions only giving a bonus to spot or whatever. that its still not enough to see most sneaks. I just wanted to say that if you dont like it, put more points into spot =P your character cant be good at everything. And I personally like the fact that now my journeymen rogue can move through the streets unseen if he wanted, without worry of being spotted by a apprentice mage with TS up. I think it makes more sense this way. Just my thoughts.

It's not about your high level rogue being unable to be spotted by an 'apprentice mage' with True Seeing (I will refrain from commenting on calling anyone who can cast level 6 spell an apprentice), it's about someone who is the same level as your rogue and has full ranks in spot having no way to spot him.

Also, this thread is not about true seeing specifically. This is about the many, many design chances that were done recently which promote a class that was strong to begin with.

As to the earlier raised 'playing a rogue is hard point' ... well. I will keep it in mind the next time I see the party stopping all two minutes for the rogue to disable a trap between him outdamaging the fighters, informing the party of all encounters ahead of time and solely vaporizing the boss fight with a bunch of cheap traps, I guess.

[kaltorac]

Gear is constantly being revised and added. There's only so many hours in any given day/week/month to do stuff though. Even then, when stuff gets added, someone will then complain that "we're" ignoring others. *shrugs* That's life.EX: Recent additions of new Scythes and Sickles and Tridents only made for more PMs complaining about the lack of *insert name of some other weapon*

More gear to help with "spotting" is in the works. Folks just need to be patient is all. Inorder to clean our pallettes and reduce lag creating "stores" and "items" is a much more time consuming task than in the past. Also, many older items that used to vastly increase Hide/MS are long gone, even from PC's inventories. The days of hoods, cloaks and staves granting +10 bonuses ended a few years ago already. Yes, there's still a need for "spotting" equipment now. Again, be patient. Its coming.

That the "random traps" are "buggy" is nonsense too. I've personally watched over three dozen parties IG in areas with them. They work fine. They spawn in well before a PC can spot them. Unless you're running or have a poor search chance, nothing has changed. Nor are there more traps in updated areas. Updated areas specifically use fewer traps because they do reset now. In the past, many areas simply got cleared by the first PC/Party through them and others never even realised they had traps. Now, they reset for each group. Since they reset, "we" use less in each updated area than were previously there. Even if we didn't use the new random traps, updates would have corrected the preset trap's DCs and the same complaints would have been heard.

The random traps CAN be harder to spot though. Most areas in the past used traps drawn from the Bioware Standard Pallette. These traps had low if any spot DCs applied. This made them very easy to spot and often at a very long distance (often even out of LOS). The random ones are assigned a random DC for spotting. The DCs are based on Bioware's own "suggested DC if set by a rogue" and fluctuate based on that "suggestion" as a baseline. An "easy/minor" trap that previously had a DC0 to spot now has 0-8 as it's DC is all. Harder traps vary similarly. Most deadly and epic traps have been weeded from areas catering to low and mid level PCs.

I've followed way too many PCs IG to count that claimed that the random traps simply appeared just before they stepped on them. However, I was watching. They didn't. The traps were there the whole time. In most cases, the PC had low or no points in search or was moving too fast is all. Slow down. You'll spot them. That's the whole idea behind traps in general. They are intended to get folks to be cautious and go slower. The simple truth is, a great many find them a hinderance because it slows down their XP and Loot gathering. Take a few breaths, let your "scouts" actually scout and mark traps and few will have issues. I can't tell you how many times while "watching" that a PC trips a trap that someone is trying to flag/disarm/recover already too. It happens alot though. Slow down.

Only two /2/deux/due/dois/dos/äýï/twee ... new areas are specifically designed to require a rogue. Only two. One of those, I've mentioned elsewhere, is being revised so non-rogues can traverse it and just miss out on the "side areas". Other areas with high DC locks will be reviewed as well.

As far as recent changes to True Seeing and Knock are concerned, there's as many applauding them as complaining about them. You can never please everyone though and its frustrating at times to even try. I do know that these are not "overnight" changes too. They may seem like it IG, but ... FRC's DM Team has been discussing and debating these and many other changes "*ad nauseam" and only recently decided their outcomes is why.

*Ad nauseum: Meaning it's drug out for a very long time, in this case years.

Again, be patient. There's always causes and effects. In this case, the "cause" is changing Knock and the "effect" is some locks even a decent rogue can't open now. It'll get fixed folks. It takes time though. Why do so many just assume ever tweak and change is made with the mindset by DMs and Builders of "lets see what we can do to piss folk off now with"? *troll* happens. Changing Knock had an effect the DM Team overlooked. The next update or two will surely remedy it. Chill out. Relax.

There's no grand conspiracey to make "Rogues" the best PC Class now either. I'm sure that as soon as the dungeons that focus on Rangers, Druids, Good Priests, Evil Priests, etc... appear, they'll be complained about too. "No fair, only a evil multiclassed Rogue/Cleric/Ranger can solo all three of the new dungeons"! It'll happen, I'm sure. Always does.

Jun 18, 2011 11:53:14 GMT -5 lowstorm said:

I only want to say that playing a rogue isn't as easy as you're all making it.

I agree. Let me specify though. Rogues are by far the single hardest class to solo with. I don't mind though. I like that I need to take my time, scout, plan and "pick" a winnable fight rather than just charge ahead or unleash a barrage of spells. Yes, a rogue could just use lots of traps and solo the average area/dungeon easilly, but ... most lack access to enough traps or supplies to do it regularly and they both take up significant space and weight. There's advantages and disadvantages to most any class though. I do agree that a soloing rogue has the hardest time. Especially as they get higher in levels.

[EDM Entori]

Jun 18, 2011 13:00:03 GMT -5 @tarus said:

Jun 18, 2011 12:29:53 GMT -5 probablyamage said:

On the knock issue, I more or less agree with Neo. I think a better solution would have been to remove the extremely cheap Knock items in the first place. If people needed to use a caster for them (And casters of all sorts HATE having to prepare Knocks), it would have changed things. As it is though, I'm just hoping that the dozen or so locked doors that bar passage through dungeons are fixed (discounting the Necropolis, where it's more like 40 very difficult locks barring the way)

Knock wands are easily made, though. Sold to anyone who takes a single class in the arcane witchery, they make great door openers for only 6,000 gold. Yes, I always hated preparing knocks. But with Craft wand, the wand easily pays for itself.... well, before the change. I'm not sure how many rare loot chests I'll be able to open now. But before it was as easy as pie...

Blueberry pie.... with a very light flaky crust sprinkled with powdered sugar.... mmmmmmm .... what was I talking about?

indeed but someone at least needs a level or some UMD, vs the item which anyone could use...

[fred]

What follows should be read with the understanding that it represents only my personal philosophy, and not my experience of playing with the changes that have been made over the last few months. Because of assorted RL matters I have not been gaming, so I have not experienced those changes!

However, I feel I have something to say about these matters, since when people want to cite a rogue who is purely ridiculous, Mouse is one of the names that gets mentioned.

And, indeed, she is purely ridiculous. Of course, she's also epic, so that's not really surprising. But, as Thrym points out, she'd be terribly useful to a party with just about any composition, since she can tank, she can out-damage most melee characters, and she can lay traps to soften things up, when it's appropriate.

I will say that it is nice when rogue non-melee skills are actually useful. The occasional trap (one that isn't purely a nuisance) or lock is a bit of a diversion and makes it actually worthwhile putting points into those skills.

That said, I'm of the opinion that no class should be required for the completion of any dungeon. In a PnP game, we would all get together and say, "Okay, I'll play a wizard, and you play a rogue, and you, you play a fighter," and you'd make up a party that had a nice mix.

But in an online game, much of the time you just have to go with what's available based on who's logged in when you are. And that's not always going to include a wizard, and it's not always going to include a rogue, and sometimes, well, you just feel like adventuring with what you have. You don't want to sit around town just because you don't have what's needed to go dungeon-crawling (Mouse and Dusk used to run into this problem a lot, actually.)

This was a long-winded way of saying that I agree with Neo that those tasty locks and traps for which a rogue is required ought to be nice extras, maybe some extra loot or something fun, but something you can just pass by if you can't handle it.

I've chimed in about Hide/MS vs. perception before, at length, so I'll just say briefly that I agree that more perception gear is definitely needed, and that it ought to provide enough other benefits that it would be useful to wear as everyday gear.

And that is my considered opinion, as the player of an awesome (to begin with) rogue.

[Munroe]

On the True Seeing thing:

True Seeing is now giving a +2 bonus to Spot and Search PER caster level on top of any actual points into Spot/Search.

That means a Level 11 wizard is getting a +22 bonus to Spot and Search in addition to any other spells or skill points that grant a bonus. Compare that to a level 11 class that actually has Spot as a class skill for a class and their max ranks in the skill is 14. Then add Wis mod.

So that's a level 11 wizard with 10 Wis and True Seeing being able to roll from 23 to 42 on a Spot check with no ranks in Spot and no other spells cast.

At level 20, a wizard casting True Seeing, again with no other bonuses to the skill whatsoever, is gaining a +40 to Spot/Search. That's 41 to 60 on Spot/Search rolls. That's with no additional gear, no ranks, no bonus to Wisdom, and no additional spells cast.

And there is no cap, so a level 22 wizard gets +44, a level 24 wizard gets +48, and so on.

And if they're a cleric with Wis as a primary casting attribute, go ahead and add another 5 to 12 onto that, or maybe more.

Do rogues buy a lot of stealth equipment? Yes, they do, but it's very very expensive and by no means should be be assumed that any given rogue is going to have the best gear. True Seeing now helps a wizard or cleric see a sneak a approximately their level range, maybe a little higher or lower depending on the rogue's gear and what other gear or equipment the wizard or cleric has.

This does mean that True Seeing scrolls with a higher caster level might be worthwhile to add though since caster level is used to determine the Spot/Search bonus for people using the spell from a scroll.

[probablyamage]

Three cheap, easy to find scrolls bump Hide by 24 points. Advantage rogue. I shudder to think what the max hide possibility on this server is. Nearing 90, I'm betting. Not something that can be beat with anyone's spot check, unless you gimp your build to max spot (which requires having known that True Sight would be altered this way earlier, to fix it then). Spot gear doesn't currently match Hide/MS gear, and there's one other thing. Hide/MS gear is ALWAYS beneficial to a rogue. No one is going to spend 200k just to buy spot gear to add on top of True Sight so that they can finally spot those rogues when using True Sight.

[VaultDuke]

this all sounds like it is quite easy for an epic to max out the +50 cap on these skills on either side.

with a high enough dexterity the rogue will then really be unspotable by anyone except a cleric.

[kaltorac]

The CR 9 Orogs need to roll a 23 on their d20 to hit their own armor class.

I have no clue as to what you are implying. Half of my own PCs can't hit their own ACs without a natural 20 either.

I refuse to respond to the last part of your post for it is accusatory and rude, and I'm tempted to respond in kind.

Its not an accusation, but it IS a fact. See next response.

I'm less happy with that you seem to imply our characters would only be in these places by us metagaming it, and would gladly explain how such isn't the case, but I don't think that a thread that, I remind you, was created with the intention of providing helpful observations and criticism so as to help improve the server, in a public forum, is the place for such things.

I've not accused anyone of deliberately metagaming, but ... and this is a huge BUT ... its a fact that the longer someone plays here (or anywhere else) each generation of PCs excells faster than the previous. It cannot be helped. Longtime players simply know the server inside and out. Often better than DMs and Builders do. This does affect choices made whether folk admit it or not. By the time most of us are on our third or fifteenth or fourty second PC here, we're travelling farther and accompishing FAR MORE than we ever did with our first PCs. Is it "metagaming"? By the strictest of definitions I suppose it is. Its not intentional though. That's the difference. No one has accused anyone of intentionally metagaming. Denying that prior knowledge of the server does not influence your choices in the least is delusional at best though. It happens. It cannot be avoided. Most of us at least try our bests not to react to overtly, but past knowledge of areas and encounters cannot be erased from our minds and DOES influence us all in some small way.

[PilgrimSoul]

Jun 18, 2011 13:04:18 GMT -5 FORSETIS said:

So my main character being a rogue this caught my attention and I read through some of it quickly, and I saw that a couple people said more or less that its not fair about the hole true sight potions only giving a bonus to spot or whatever. that its still not enough to see most sneaks. I just wanted to say that if you dont like it, put more points into spot =P your character cant be good at everything. And I personally like the fact that now my journeymen rogue can move through the streets unseen if he wanted, without worry of being spotted by a apprentice mage with TS up. I think it makes more sense this way. Just my thoughts.

+1!

And as a sidenote, okay so your character can't do EVERYTHING anymore, you can either moan and whine about it or rise to the challenge.

As for the general discussion, it's not that I totally disagree with the argument being made.
I would personally prefer it to be a perk to have a rogue present in a party rather than a necessity. I.e, a party with a rouge are able to take advantage of otherwise inaccessible treasure rooms/rest rooms/treasure chests/secret doors/passages and avoid deadly traps, rather than being forced into a dead end. (there are a few examples of this on the server.)

[Charon's Claw]

If a dungeon can't be completed w/o a rogue due to a rogue-like obstacle please PM a DM. This can be considered a bug unless otherwise informed after the PM.

It is not the intent of the team to make dungeons impossible w/o a rogue. This is a transition time where things will be rocky before they will be flawless, if they ever become flawless. FRC has 239487239487239487239487239847233 areas, so please bare with us.

Also note that we are not intentionally trying to screw your game play. *insert mildly sarcastic tone*

That is all.

[EDM Neo]

Jun 18, 2011 22:09:04 GMT -5 Charon's Claw said:

If a dungeon can't be completed w/o a rogue due to a rogue-like obstacle please PM a DM. This can be considered a bug unless otherwise informed after the PM.

It is not the intent of the team to make dungeons impossible w/o a rogue. This is a transition time where things will be rocky before they will be flawless, if they ever become flawless. FRC has 239487239487239487239487239847233 areas, so please bare with us.

Also note that we are not intentionally trying to screw your game play. *insert mildly sarcastic tone*

That is all.

*thumbs up*

[EDM Entori]

Jun 18, 2011 22:20:01 GMT -5 EDM Neo said:

Jun 18, 2011 22:09:04 GMT -5 Charon's Claw said:

If a dungeon can't be completed w/o a rogue due to a rogue-like obstacle please PM a DM. This can be considered a bug unless otherwise informed after the PM.

It is not the intent of the team to make dungeons impossible w/o a rogue. This is a transition time where things will be rocky before they will be flawless, if they ever become flawless. FRC has 239487239487239487239487239847233 areas, so please bare with us.

Also note that we are not intentionally trying to screw your game play. *insert mildly sarcastic tone*

That is all.

*thumbs up*

I know of a few areas that have epic traps that are impassable for the question that reset, or did at one time, is this to be consider something we should look for in that statement?

I get that rogues are liked and FRC enjoys are Party based enviroment, at the same time... often rogues are hard come by, and even with the current trap set up on FRC. often times I've seen mid-low level rogues take down dragons with just traps En-mass.... for get all the over powered mages and clerics..

I'm talking some massive deadly traps and by Massive, I mean almost a full area of traps. I get traps being useful, but mass mass mass trapping really doesn't help our lag beast.

Now we have to rely on them not just to kill the massive boss, but we need them to open locks to, I mean knock was changed from its original form for a reason. I really think it should tackle a really tough DC, but I think it should be modified to effect a single chest/door, instead of an area. thats where I think knock goes too far.

I would also like to see "find traps" work as intended and disable a selected trap, or continually "find traps" ..

but thats just my 2 cents.

[gathera]

The re-made gargoyle dungeon (who's name escapes me at the moment), the one near Valkurs Roar has a door to the last part that has a DC of 35. So rogues only to get in. I will say that it has been more than awhile since I tried that place so it might have been changed, but probably not.