D&D 3.0 x 3.5

[Keetena]

Ok people, what about we discuss some changes in rules and give our opinion about, let me explain why I'm opening this, I'm a player here, but I DM in board RPG and don't decided yet abou 3.0 or 3.5 (I have both) since Neverwinter 2 shall be 3.5 edition I thought maybe that this can be usefull to evebody to know more about the system changes and reflect about it... well, I really wanna this to discuss just the fact -rules changes- and not the obvious othertings like mercenarism...

1st - Now in 3.5 ambidextery don't exist anymore, if you buy two-weapon fight (must have 15 dextery) you'll have the benefits previously associated with ambidextery+two weapon fight, improved two weapon fight requires dextery 17 and superior two weapon fight dextery 19 (yes, now is common the superior feats, in this case it gives a third attack with the offhand weapon at -10 to hit)

2nd - Now Improved critical isn't cumulative with keen weapon, so not anymore a 8th character will be able of dealing criticals in 12-20 hits (this was possible with a keen scmitar or rapier for example + improved critical).

I wish to hear your opinions, and no, this in't a powergame discussion,

[Manshin]

Ouch... looks like Ill be sticking with 3. I imagine you could guess why.
Being able to score crits is major advantage.. but at the higher levels (Like when you get improved crit.) You wont be able to hit much with a 12 anyway. At least.. not anything challenging.
Anyway, crits dont work on undead and constructs... that signifies a pretty major part of the baddy population.

[DM Richard (Retired)]

"You wont be able to hit much with a 12 anyway. At least.. not anything challenging."

*DM Richard dons a disguise and attempts to start a riot in Isinhold*

Ouch!!!

Manshin is that a gauntlet thrown down? You hear that all you mages on FRC? Manshin claims you are no challenge! Boy oh boy!!! I don't know if I'd take that sitting down if I were you.


(Just a bit of humor folks)

[Munroe]

Rangers don't get the two weapon fighting feat for free at level 1 anymore in 3.5 so that's an improvement. People actually have to take 2 levels of ranger before they can start into their Mastery, which can be either two weapon-focused or bow focused, a change from 3.0

Rangers are reduced from d10 to d8 hitdice. That sounds unpleasant but rangers rock in 3.5--I'm just saying.

Rangers get Hide in Plain Sight (while in nature settings) at level 17 in 3.5.

Not sure their other changes from 3.0 since I don't have the 3.0 phb. I know rangers get Track and Endurance feats for free, as well as the wild empathy ability. Wild Empathy replaces a function of a skill that was removed in 3.5. At higher levels, rangers may move at full speed and Track while other classes must have reduced speed to use the same feat. Not sure if that's even changed from 3.0 but it's cool.

One change that at first I thought was peculiar but I've accepted is that the favoured class for gnomes is bard in 3.5. Gnomes are sometimes thought of as pranksters so I could see how bard might fit. I think it brings them closer to their spritely origins.

Generally speaking, I like 3.5e better than 3e because I like the simplification of the skills too. There are no class-only skills in 3.5, any class may invest in any skill as cross-class. A cleric could put points into Use Magic Device...if they wanted to. (Some prestige classes may still introduce skills that are class-specific but I can't think of any off the top of my head.)

As for the Improved Critical+Keen, both still exist, they just no longer stack. That's fine by me.

As for NWN2, I wonder how true the implimentation of 3.5e rules will be. I expect it will be 3/5 3.5e, 1/5 3e, 1/5 as-you-like-it, much as NWN isn't strict 3e rules.

[kenny26]

i like very little of 3,5. all my dnd games are 3E with houserules (and a very small selection of 3,5 rules included as houserules).

i love the ranger in 3,5. finally he kicks ass like the other fighters. in fact, with the new manyshot feats, our group's ranger can put out more damage each round with his bow than the half-dragon fighter, and that's saying alot...

and also, with the way his favoured enemy works, he can actually pick just one monster he really hates and focus on incresing that bonus instead (the way i remember it he has to have at least one other favoured enemy at the lowest bonus but who cares?).

he has alot more skill points, which i like, and less hp which again seperates him from the tanks of the party.

another minor rule i like is that dwarves can move at full speed in their armour no matter how heavy it is. this really makes the dwarf in a fullplate he made himself something to be reconed with... ;D
of course in nwn everyone moves at full speed in any armour...

i can see how the keen edge weapon property has been made utterly useless in 3,5 because naturally any self-respecting fighter will pick the improved critical feat...
i know in dnd it is an almost too powerful combination to allow fighters with improved critical to be given keen swords, but this was possible from the very beginning.
the party mage could always cast greater magic weapon and keen edge on the fighter's sword (although the effect was only a garantee if the blade was not already enhanced).
in dnd i think this works, because the mage will be using much needed spell slots to benefit the fighter, thus benefitting the party.
in nwn, the inviroment isn't quite so controlled, and any tank with a keen weapon will mostly be using it just to benefit himself since groups split up and band together all the time depending on who is online at the time...

another thing i don't like about 3,5 is how easy they've made it to be an ultimate two-weapon fighting menace.
with ambidexterity and twoweapon fighting comprised into a single feat, and a new feat called superior two-weapon fighting to build on top of the already deadly improved two-weapon fighting feat, you will have a monster making up to 7 attacks every round and all he needs to do this is 3 feats...
in 3E you can only optain 6 attacks per round for the same selection of feats.

i like a system that works equally well for any fighting style, be it a two-handed weapon, a hand-held weapon and a shield, a ranged weapon, or two hand-held weapons.
in 3E i think i have achieved this as the DM of my group of players.

bottom line: i like 3E best, and the parts of 3,5 i do like are small enough that i can steal them and implement them into my own game with a clear conscience.

if nwn2 is gonna be based on 3,5 then i can only hope the final version (once the game mechanics have gone through bioware) will be something i like.

[Laurk]

What bugs me about keen and improved crit not stacking, is that it doesnt make sense. Keen represents an extra sharp sword, improved crit represents training in anatomy and weak points. Why wouldnt someone who is trained and has a very sharp sword get an advantage over someone who just has one or the other? I understand its a balance issue.. I guess.. but it doesnt make any sense.

[StabbingNirvana]

paladins get 4 or 5 extra smites and a few more remove diseases ... i say we download that 3.5 patch pronto!

[Boogiedk]

stabbingnirvana said:

paladins get 4 or 5 extra smites and a few more remove diseases ... i say we download that 3.5 patch pronto!

I hear you !

But I like 3.5 way better for many reasons first and foremost the amount of prestige classes made availlable with the new system .. Check out "Order of the bow Initiate" . . I can actually outdamage most melee fighters with a well made "OoB"

[kenny26]

i've read about the order of the bow initiate in my dnd sourcebooks and i must say it's just lame in so many ways.
it's way too powerful if you ask me...