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Post by catmage on Sept 16, 2011 20:47:04 GMT -5
Alright. I can see your point. Let us focus, for a moment, on the fact that the child is unarmed. Has no chance of being able to match the paladins abilities and had done no wrong infront of the Paladin. Nor is it armed. Surely it would go against "Honorable Combat" to simply slay the child? ~Sio Book of Exalted Deeds, pages 9-10: "Violence is a part of the D&D world, and not inherently evil in the context of that world. The deities of good equip their heros not just to be meek and humble servants, but to be their fists and swords, their champions in a brutal war against the forces of evil. A paladin smiting a blackguard or a blue dragon is not committing an evil act: the cause of good expects and often demands that violence be brought to bear against it's enemies. That said, there are certain limits upon the use of violence that good characters must observe. First, violence in the name of good must have just cause, which in the D&D world means it must be directed against evil. It is certainly possible for a good nation to go to war upon another good nation, but fighting in such a conflict is not a good act. In fact, even launching a war upon a nearby tribe of evil orcs is not necessarily good if it comes without provocation- the mere existence of evil orcs is not a just cause for war against them, if the orcs have been causing no harm. A full-scale war would provoke the orcs to evil deeds and bring unnecessary suffering to both sides of the conflict. Similarly, revenge is not an acceptable cause for violence, although violence is an appropriate means of stopping further acts of evil (as opposed to paying back evil already committed). The second consideration is that violence should have good intentions. Launching an incursion into orc territory is not a good act if the primary motivation is profit, whether that means clearing the treasure out of the ruins the orcs inhabit or claiming their land for its natural resources. Violence against evil is acceptable when it is directed at stopping or preventing evil acts from being done. The third consideration is one of discrimination. Violence cannot be considered good when it is directed against noncombatants (including children and the females of at least some races and cultures). Placing a fireball so that its area includes irc women and children as well as warriors and barbarians is evil, since the noncombatant orcs are not a threat and are comparatively defenseless." The first chapter of Champions of Valor, a Forgotten Realm rulebook, in addition to explaining that morality in the Realms is rather more gray than the Core D&D, also provides an example of why killing the non-combatants can ultimately be worse than sparing them, and how to help encourage such creatures to find good, and thus not only hurt the gods of evil, but actively empower the gods of good. |
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Sept 16, 2011 20:52:34 GMT -5
It's only in 4th edition that a paladin is actually required to have a deity or a patron. In third edition and before, devotion to righteousness is enough. So, elven paladins are quite possible This is untrue - for us. In the Forgotten Realms, all divine spellcasters must worship an appropriate deity. |
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Post by zDark Shadowz on Sept 16, 2011 21:23:12 GMT -5
Here is the thread for it in the wiki anyway. forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/PaladinThere's nothing that doesn't say that an elven paladin can't follow a human god, anyway, but it does say elven paladins are rare due to elves chaotic tendancies. *shrugs* "Many become the squires or assistants to more experienced paladins, training for years before they come unto their own as champions of the divine. Others hear or answer the call only late in life, after having pursued a different career." So Savoire all you really need to do to support your paladin is a small bit of RP history of training under another paladin before joining an order (if you want, orders aren't really necessary), or to be trained by a higher level paladin IG. If patron/deities/orders are self-required, there's nothing stopping you from simply picking a deity from the human pantheon. |
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Sept 16, 2011 21:31:41 GMT -5
The order he mentioned, zdark, is specifically containing Paladins of Corellon, which do not exist in the Forgotten Realms. The Order of the Forgotten Flower comes up quite often.
And, you're right. A Paladin can worship a deity outside of its racial pantheon. Elven Paladins can exist.
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Post by kaltorac on Sept 17, 2011 0:07:34 GMT -5
Folk's should bear in mind that most of the pages on the Forgotten Realms WIKI have been slanted/editted to favor 4E rules nowadays.
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Post by minion on Sept 17, 2011 17:34:40 GMT -5
in short, here's the crux of the problem with the Order of the Forgotten Flower in FR:
1) paladins must not only be LG, but must also have as patron a god who is LG, LN, or NG (with the notable exception of Sune, of course)
2) there are no LG, LN, or NG gods in the elven pantheon
3) while the PC in question could be a paladin of a non-elven god, the Order in question is dedicated to particularly (hell, pretty much exclusively) "elven" purposes, making the backstory/motivational RP necessary for said PC to exist by these rules exceedingly implausible
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Post by minion on Sept 18, 2011 2:54:00 GMT -5
Unless the order doesn't expect humans or halflings to share their ideals, and they have no qualms about deities in general... hence an elven paladin from another deity being plausible in an elf-only order, despite whether or not this order actually exists in FR. the order we're discussing here is elven in nature, both by virtue of who is in it and by virtue of its purpose. i'm guessing a non-elf could (in theory) enter it (assuming they proved themselves worthy in some extraordinary fashion), and i'm sure that an elf who worshipped a non-elven deity could enter it (assuming they proved they were genuinely interested and had no ulterior motives), but the issue is this: why would a paladin of (for example) Lathander, whether or not they were an elf, devote their life to hunting down and retrieving elven lore and elven artifacts as opposed to doing whatever it is that Lathanderite paladins typically do? i'm guessing that (again for example) hunting undead is pretty high on that list, or in any case is way, way above digging up elven history, which suggests that that is what they would spend much more of their time, effort, gp, and skill in accomplishing, relegating the elven studies/archaeology to a distant second, if that. *is now imagining an elf in leather jacket, brown fedora, w/a whip in one hand and a repeating crossbow in the other, facing down a half-orc with a falchion in a busy marketplace...* how badly would you have to twist and contort a backstory to come up with some reason that a paladin of a non-elven god would care more about elven history than about their holy calling? |
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Sept 18, 2011 11:03:18 GMT -5
It's not about distorting or twisting to forcing a backstory fit... not at all... Finding something plausible that can fit, so a paladin doesn't get picked at for its RP history. You seem to be under the impression that the paladin deities are racist that care nothing about family or their followers history. This is a section from Torm's dogma. You know, Torm, patron of Paladins..? "Your fourfold duties are to faith, family, masters, and all good beings of Faerûn." So, in following an elven organization of paladins & fighters recovering lost elven relics from long-abandoned elven ruins (which 9/10 are demon or undead riddled) actually nails all four on the head. He is both in the elven-only group as well as serving Torm to a "T". This would not be generally acceptable in the Forgotten Realms setting, and I, personally, would be disinclined to allow it to happen in a campaign I was running. The easiest solution is this: The Order of the Forgotten Flower is not a Forgotten Realms order listed in any Forgotten Realms source or canon, and so it is NOT a part of the Forgotten Realms. Elven society in the Forgotten Realms does not promote lawfulness, and so a Paladin's strict adherence to order does not mesh well with their society - Elven Paladins are, frankly, weirdos among their people. |
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Post by EDM Entori on Sept 18, 2011 13:46:21 GMT -5
It's not about distorting or twisting to forcing a backstory fit... not at all... Finding something plausible that can fit, so a paladin doesn't get picked at for its RP history. You seem to be under the impression that the paladin deities are racist that care nothing about family or their followers history. This is a section from Torm's dogma. You know, Torm, patron of Paladins..? "Your fourfold duties are to faith, family, masters, and all good beings of Faerûn." So, in following an elven organization of paladins & fighters recovering lost elven relics from long-abandoned elven ruins (which 9/10 are demon or undead riddled) actually nails all four on the head. He is both in the elven-only group as well as serving Torm to a "T". This would not be generally acceptable in the Forgotten Realms setting, and I, personally, would be disinclined to allow it to happen in a campaign I was running. The easiest solution is this: The Order of the Forgotten Flower is not a Forgotten Realms order listed in any Forgotten Realms source or canon, and so it is NOT a part of the Forgotten Realms. --------- My iPhone messed up the qoute ---------- it is generally no acceptable to play elves outside of their native alignment or one step of their gods which for a majority is cg and ng. Now im not saying it's not possible. But you often do you see humans worshiping the seldarine? Rarely. That goes both ways, now it is rare and elves favor indiviualism so serving torn would be seen as (by some) snuffing out that individuality that is seldarine given, by blindly serving the dogma of a paladin. But it wouldnt go as far as to shun that person. Also depends on sub race sun elves would shun you, moon would be more likely to tolerate, wood elves would have your babies. But overall without some really really creative rp I'm didiclined to accept elven paladains and monks especially give the "elven long view" and the fact that elves have such an isolated life(mostly like I said depends on backstory) but to the point the seldarine would be impressed upon an elf inside the womb and even their language, so there would have to be a radical change in order to see paladins as acceptable rp Elven society in the Forgotten Realms does not promote lawfulness, and so a Paladin's strict adherence to order does not mesh well with their society - Elven Paladins are, frankly, weirdos among their people. |
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Post by EDM Neo on Sept 18, 2011 14:17:45 GMT -5
Heehee.
Agreed on it being somewhat unusual for elves to be lawful and what not, but I just find it funny how we can talk about how much they favor individualism in the same phrase as we say how it would be so beyond consideration for an elf to be unusual and do their own (individualistic) thing, and how they might be looked upon as weird or even freakish for not conforming to the traditional elven cultural norms... of being individualistic. :p
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Post by ramir on Sept 18, 2011 14:30:03 GMT -5
Reresentin' the Sunite massive, g!
~Sio
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Post by EDM Entori on Sept 21, 2011 23:55:38 GMT -5
Heehee. Agreed on it being somewhat unusual for elves to be lawful and what not, but I just find it funny how we can talk about how much they favor individualism in the same phrase as we say how it would be so beyond consideration for an elf to be unusual and do their own (individualistic) thing, and how they might be looked upon as weird or even freakish for not conforming to the traditional elven cultural norms... of being individualistic. :p hey man I agree with you. but I only take it as I've learned it, though I do note the differences between subrace, which I think there is a alot of significant differences. just because someone is or some "people" prize themselves on being an individual, depending on how you look at it mind you. Does not mean there is a stigma. to use a realworld example. Look at a stereotypical "goth".. if such a person does dress they way they do, simply out of expression. which from my personal experiences they do, while many give that consideration onto others, with a respect. I personally think of Marilyn manson hes quite the intellectual, even when faced with critisim, he tends to understand that others will critisize as they will. My terrible spelling aside, how many are quite the other way who seem to "look down upon" or what have you of people who don't conform to their standards.. high school was a awhile ago for me.. but thats just chaos, but it pretty much sums up my point. The differences of "cliques" or what have you within a school, especially a large school, and how "like minded people" stick together, but often there is a fair amount of fricition to those that do no conform. --------------- now I don't like using those anaologies lightly, or bringing in such a conterversal or realworld topic. but it doesn't take much reading books like " the last mythal series" or Elaine cunninghams, "evermeet" to figure it out. |
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Post by EDM Neo on Sept 22, 2011 1:01:29 GMT -5
Oh, I didn't take any kind of offense at the way you were depicting it, I was just poking fun at the irony of "the way it is." For all the race's purported encouragement of individuality, elves seem to me like they tend to be depicted both in game and in source as much more homogeneous than humans are. If you ask what an "average" elven PC is like, I think it would be pretty fair to guess that they're CG, devoted to their kin, respectful of nature and of magic and the arts (rather commonly in fact a ranger or mage or bard), and perhaps disdainful of human authority. If they're a sun elf, they're a bit of a snob. Disclaimer: This isn't a /bad/ thing, I just find it funny! There are exceptions, of course (don't make me begin listing ya'll!), but it seems fair in general. It's not in any way intended as a criticism of our elven PCs or their players. Easily stereotyped does not equal bad; if there isn't a norm, you can't stand out from it. Obligatory TV Tropes Link. "The reason that clichés become clichés is that they are the hammers and screwdrivers in the toolbox of communication." - Terry Pratchett
See also More Time-Draining Trope-y-ness._________________________________________________________________ And, OH YEAH, this is the paladin thread. Oops. On topic: O-Chul is the most badass paladin of all time. Sorry, Gerard. |
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