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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Feb 28, 2011 10:39:43 GMT -5
Alright, listen. I got super duper bored, and I love Paladins. There are few classes in  that are as difficult and rewarding to play as the Paladin. Holy warriors, bound by many Oaths, that seek to benefit the Realms in every action, Paladins are a veritable mixing pot of themes and possibilities. With the 1-step rule, there are many different religions to choose from for your Paladin, and the variations between them are myriad and legion. The purpose of this thread is to both entertain myself, entertain Paladin players (or people who just have questions about Paladins), and hopefully shed a favorable light on a class many seem to think is a scapegoat to PvP. So, all lines are open. Gimme a question. |
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Post by EDM Neo on Feb 28, 2011 12:58:05 GMT -5
Is it acceptable to use zombies to rescue innocent children from a burning orphanage if there are no fire fighters on hand?
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Post by urghargh on Feb 28, 2011 13:05:13 GMT -5
Is it acceptable to use zombies to rescue innocent children from a burning orphanage if there are no fire fighters on hand? Zombies? Bad idea...they're very flammable ;D |
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Feb 28, 2011 14:42:51 GMT -5
Is it acceptable to use zombies to rescue innocent children from a burning orphanage if there are no fire fighters on hand? Knew there would be someone asking needlessly obtuse questions  The answer is: not for a Paladin, no. The creation of undead is, in and of itself, an insult to life, which Paladins seek to venerate. In this case, it could be argued that the creation of undead is used to defend life, and so it is an acceptable breach of typical protocol. That is untrue. Paladins defend the people from the threat of evil, not the threat of nature. Furthermore, Paladins do not accept the 'ends justify the means' view of problem resolution many 'heroes' prescribe to. That is the path to a paladin's fall. If there is no way for the Paladin to rescue these children without performing an act of evil, then the Paladin cannot be rightfully held responsible for the deaths of the children. That is not to say he cannot do whatever he can to mitigate the tragedy of the fire; a Paladin that does nothing in the face of adversity, if they have the ability to assist and not violate their oaths, is guilty by inaction. Interestingly enough, however, this would never become an issue, save for in the case of a Paladin that is also multi-classed to something that offers the ability to create undead, or possesses an artifact that provides the ability to manifest the undead. Undead creation is not an ability granted to Paladins, and while Paladins may use many methods that are not granted by their class to solve problems, this is one of the very telling omissions from their spell list, as they are divine casters, and there are divine undead creation spells. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2011 15:13:03 GMT -5
Glandash will likely know more then I do in regards to this. The answer off the top of my head, however, is no.
This does not mean that they have a right to go around being a jerk off to everyone, mind. It simply means that if somebody is rude to them, and continues to be rude after the paladin is polite, then the paladin is well within their rights to be less then pleasent. I imagine this is to be the case in the face of known Blackguards or other people whom have made infernal pacts and the like. In the face of a Lich, no matter how charismatic, they would likely be less then pleasent also.
In short, Lawful Good does not mean Lawful Nice.
Sorry for hijacking your thread, Glandash, merely my thoughts on the matter. You will likely know more.
Question: A paladin should try to live by the law of the land he is in. As by the Alignment. If one of these laws goes directly against the Paladins code, is the Paladin allowed to speak out against the law or try to free people from it? Since the Paladins code is above all other codes and laws, in their own eyes. To give example to my point, and to use your earlier example, could a paladin actively oppose a Law which states that all executed criminals be animated as undead? Or actively oppose a law that forced people into slavery?
~Sio
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Post by Malignant Naricissism on Feb 28, 2011 15:21:22 GMT -5
It's always been my thought that paladins are good before they are lawful, not the other way around.
But enough of hijacking...
The age-old question: what does a paladin do with noncombatants of a generally evil race, such as orc children?
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Feb 28, 2011 15:22:14 GMT -5
Sweet. I've got questions and my own responses, but this is your thread, so here you go, man: Does a paladin need to be nice? Lawful Good ain't Lawful Nice. Paladins can be stern, fatalistic, happy-go-lucky, and many other personality types. A Paladin is not held to a strict 'required personality,' and many Paladins, particularly those of different faiths, hold disparate views on how certain situations should be approached. |
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Feb 28, 2011 15:30:57 GMT -5
It's always been my thought that paladins are good before they are lawful, not the other way around. But enough of hijacking... The age-old question: what does a paladin do with noncombatants of a generally evil race, such as orc children? I'll get to Adi's question next, since it's a more involved response. The response to non-combatants depends entirely on the situation, the players, and the setting. In the Forgotten Realms, things are more black and white than gray. Good is good. Evil is evil. Neutral typically has tendencies towards one or the other. Destroying evil can never be considered an evil act. It is, at worst, neutral when done for selfish reasons. A Paladin's actions reflect this, but are not so inherently bound. A Paladin cannot fall for destroying an inherently evil creature, but it would reflect better upon the Paladin for attempting to raise it from evil. This is a debatable question with an answer that changes from DM to DM, player to player, and setting to setting. In the Forgotten Realms, where orcs are generally considered evil, I would say that killing them would be acceptable, as orcish tendencies are very real and dangerous things. |
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Feb 28, 2011 15:43:13 GMT -5
Question: A paladin should try to live by the law of the land he is in. As by the Alignment. If one of these laws goes directly against the Paladins code, is the Paladin allowed to speak out against the law or try to free people from it? Since the Paladins code is above all other codes and laws, in their own eyes. To give example to my point, and to use your earlier example, could a paladin actively oppose a Law which states that all executed criminals be animated as undead? Or actively oppose a law that forced people into slavery? ~Sio In general, a Paladin's society and faith determine their views on such things. In Mulhorand, for instance, even good Mulhorandi deities have slaves. Mulhorandi Paladins, in this case, can be slave owners. That is a slight tangent from the core of the question, however. When a Paladin finds a law that opposes their core beliefs, it falls upon them to seek its modification, or annulment. Torm's dogma addresses this, actually: The path of the freedom fighter is generally reserved for those who are of Chaotic alignments. Paladins see no benefit from embroiling a society in civil war or unrest, and generally seek to modify the law and its implementation through 'proper channels' - often the very courts that enforce the unjust laws they seek to change. Of course, this does not mean that a Paladin cannot bring war upon a tyranny, and if a Paladin is in a position of such power, annexation can be the quickest path to justice. It is a fine line to walk when one begins wars, however, and Paladin kings typically prefer to work diplomacy rather than siege engines. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2011 15:45:35 GMT -5
Surely, though, killing a child would look very bad upon the Paladin in question. A child is, ultimately innocent. They have their entire lives ahead of them to make their own decisions and to make their own path. There is source reference for members of ultimately evil races becoming closer to good aligned and working for the forces of Good. Now, I died a little inside at this example, but here it is. Driz'zt. Drow are an ultimately evil race yet Driz'zt is not. Surely the paladin would much prefer to rescue the child and teach it the correct and more goodly way to live its life. Even making it more neutral then outright evil would be more acceptable then simply slaughtering a creature which is not bearing arms, has any real skill and ultimately incapable of having any real chance to defend itself against the paladin. Even a level one paladin could easily slay an Orc child because it is evil. But would he? I do not think he would.
~Sio
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Feb 28, 2011 16:05:27 GMT -5
Surely, though, killing a child would look very bad upon the Paladin in question. A child is, ultimately innocent. They have their entire lives ahead of them to make their own decisions and to make their own path. There is source reference for members of ultimately evil races becoming closer to good aligned and working for the forces of Good. Now, I died a little inside at this example, but here it is. Driz'zt. Drow are an ultimately evil race yet Driz'zt is not. Surely the paladin would much prefer to rescue the child and teach it the correct and more goodly way to live its life. Even making it more neutral then outright evil would be more acceptable then simply slaughtering a creature which is not bearing arms, has any real skill and ultimately incapable of having any real chance to defend itself against the paladin. Even a level one paladin could easily slay an Orc child because it is evil. But would he? I do not think he would. ~Sio Keep in mind that, in source, a 'good drow' is almost unheard of and largely without precedent. No one knows about Eilistraee. No one knows about Drizzt (save for the far NW corner of Faerûn, at this point in the timeline). However, the horror stories of Drow and Orc malevolence and evil are well-told. Concepts, such as 'nature v. nurture' have not been explored in Faerûn at this time, and it is generally considered, uh, stupid, to beat the case of 'good' drow, and 'good' orcs. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2011 16:20:10 GMT -5
Alright. I can see your point. Let us focus, for a moment, on the fact that the child is unarmed. Has no chance of being able to match the paladins abilities and had done no wrong infront of the Paladin. Nor is it armed. Surely it would go against "Honorable Combat" to simply slay the child?
~Sio
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Post by tehvision on Feb 28, 2011 16:29:22 GMT -5
I have recently began to play a paladin of Kelemvor and naturally are opposed to the undead which leads to crypts and grave yards and the such , however is it right that I take no loot? Is this typical of a paladin of Kelemvor??
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Post by urghargh on Feb 28, 2011 16:40:48 GMT -5
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Feb 28, 2011 16:59:46 GMT -5
I have recently began to play a paladin of Kelemvor and naturally are opposed to the undead which leads to crypts and grave yards and the such , however is it right that I take no loot? Is this typical of a paladin of Kelemvor?? A paladin of Kelemvor would not open sealed coffins to take their wealth. He would have no compunctions about gathering what was displaced by the undead, however. |
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Post by tehvision on Feb 28, 2011 17:06:28 GMT -5
Excellent thanks for that, been playing a very solemn and poor paladin  |
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Post by Spirit of a Phoenix on Feb 28, 2011 17:23:13 GMT -5
In regards to paladin's not having to be nice, I can understand them being stern, but at least doing it in a respectful way. Like was posted by Henny in the thread urgh provided a link for.
Personally I like playing a character with flaws, but I've always thought paladin's are a little less lenient with the flaws they can have.
Also, I guess in regards of how to handle different situations I would think that would fall into faith a little.
A paladin of Lathander might be more willing to have their enemy go through a change to become a better person.
A paladin of Sune would be less likely to throw out insults at their enemy and use "hateful" words.
A paladin of Selûne might be more accepting and tolerant of others who would not act the way the paladin prefers.
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Post by Munroe on Feb 28, 2011 18:04:11 GMT -5
I really wish that post was cited. The first part is from the PHB but as far as I know, the rest is pulled out of thin air. |
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Post by Lady Frost on Feb 28, 2011 19:15:19 GMT -5
Something to remember is that this is a game where you need xp from killing things to get levels and gold from picking up items to buy things. If you want to play a paladin the exact way you might read about one in a novel you are going to have a -very- hard time. There aren't a lot of reasons for a paladin to march across the nation, stroll deep into a forest then kill all the goblins inside their own cave. Or kill off a group of creatures for taking a book from a fey dragon. Maybe if they're actively hurting people or raiding towns, sure. But most adventures stem from wanting to adventure not to end an active threat. As well, the engine doesn't allow for surrender so killing things is almost a must. I recommend at least a small bit of leeway when it comes to paladins actions and NWN.
Sorry if that seems off topic.
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Post by Spells on Feb 28, 2011 20:34:00 GMT -5
I will agree that any time you try to rp out a character exactly as it is in the stories (what few I have read) that you are going to have a very hard time, but the notion of these examples for a paladin wouldn't aren't.. quite correct... at least not completely. If a paladin knew a group of rakashra *think I spelled that right* were massing anywhere they would likely lead out in a crusade to send them away from the material plane as such creatures are, as earlier mentioned "evil" most times and are known for some of the cruelest acts short of being directly demon or fiend related somebody ask them for help in doing something related or not. Things they would have a problem with would be things that caused them to give up rewards (because any example I have seen shows you are suppose to give any and all material rewards to your faith as a paladin I thought) or when it comes to issues of order/morality/ and how you value others around you. At least.. I am defiantly not knowledgeable over the matters but.. I thought I would add my little bit of knowledge I had to what I read.  |
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Feb 28, 2011 23:50:30 GMT -5
Ok, Glandeezy fo' reazy sheezy... Try this one: Can a paladin use foul language? So long as they uphold the other tenets of their faith and conduct themselves in a lawful and righteous manner, I would say it's a possibility. However, for the vast majority? No. If you're a Paladin that has chosen an order (which most of you have, for multi-class reasons), I would expect that the order's discipline and training would have instilled a strict sense of courtesy in you. So long as it does not violate the Paladin's oaths, however, there is nothing inherently evil or unlawful about having a potty mouth. |
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Post by kaltorac on Mar 1, 2011 0:06:46 GMT -5
Ok, Glandeezy fo' reazy sheezy... Try this one: Can a paladin use foul language? So long as they uphold the other tenets of their faith and conduct themselves in a lawful and righteous manner, I would say it's a possibility. However, for the vast majority? No. If you're a Paladin that has chosen an order (which most of you have, for multi-class reasons), I would expect that the order's discipline and training would have instilled a strict sense of courtesy in you. So long as it does not violate the Paladin's oaths, however, there is nothing inherently evil or unlawful about having a potty mouth. I would think a paladin capable of better than straight crudeness in their swearing. Whereas a dwarf might just tell you to "Pike off"! ... perhaps a paladin might be inclined to say things like ... "Torm tests me with your presense" or "Tyr take my soul before she complains again" (for a married paladin of course). |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2011 1:16:53 GMT -5
I really wish that post was cited. The first part is from the PHB but as far as I know, the rest is pulled out of thin air. The majority of the text is from the 2nd ed complete Paladin's handbook. |
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Mar 1, 2011 1:24:11 GMT -5
So long as they uphold the other tenets of their faith and conduct themselves in a lawful and righteous manner, I would say it's a possibility. However, for the vast majority? No. If you're a Paladin that has chosen an order (which most of you have, for multi-class reasons), I would expect that the order's discipline and training would have instilled a strict sense of courtesy in you. So long as it does not violate the Paladin's oaths, however, there is nothing inherently evil or unlawful about having a potty mouth. I would think a paladin capable of better than straight crudeness in their swearing. Whereas a dwarf might just tell you to "Pike off"! ... perhaps a paladin might be inclined to say things like ... "Torm tests me with your presense" or "Tyr take my soul before she complains again" (for a married paladin of course). Often this is the case, but not always. Often times people use period language for their characters, and period language was, uh, much more colorful than our modern speech patterns. We can likely assume that though Tormtars and Tyrrans are a bit more stringent on their usage of colorful language, a Chauntean working man's hero of a Paladin might have a bit more of a farm boy style to him, and not all farm boys are exactly kosher! |
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Post by lucid on Mar 7, 2011 16:38:42 GMT -5
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Post by Munroe on Mar 7, 2011 18:44:38 GMT -5
I need to read more Goblins.
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Sept 16, 2011 16:02:29 GMT -5
THIS IS OPEN FOR QUESTIONS. ASK AND YOU SHALL BE HEARD.
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Post by Savoie Faire on Sept 16, 2011 20:05:14 GMT -5
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Post by zDark Shadowz on Sept 16, 2011 20:24:46 GMT -5
It's only in 4th edition that a paladin is actually required to have a deity or a patron. In third edition and before, devotion to righteousness is enough. So, elven paladins are quite possible. ----- Taken from wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladin_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29Dungeons & Dragons 4th edition (2008-) With the installment of 4th Edition, paladins have seen nearly complete restructuring. Paladins are now champions of a chosen deity rather than just being a righteous warrior.----- I'll find more specific information when I can. |
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Sept 16, 2011 20:42:44 GMT -5
That answer is simple: it's not Forgotten Realms, and so, isn't part of our world. It's from a 3.5 splatbook, without Forgotten Realms branding. Corellon is not listed as an exception to the Paladin rule in Forgotten Realms. |
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that are as difficult and rewarding to play as the Paladin. Holy warriors, bound by many Oaths, that seek to benefit the Realms in every action, Paladins are a veritable mixing pot of themes and possibilities. With the 1-step rule, there are many different religions to choose from for your Paladin, and the variations between them are myriad and legion.
