Old Order

[Spirit of a Phoenix]

I've been trying to do some research regarding the monk order known as the "Old Order" and unfortunately I can't seem to find much in the source books that I do have. The information that I have is what was posted about them on the forums.

Old Order (Neutral, Sometimes Good, Rarely Evil) Deity: None. They follow a deity who is long dead or never existed here. Multiclass options: May multiclass as rogues, sorcerers, and shadowdancers, but must maintain more monk levels than the combination of the other classes. Background Info: Never have huge monasteries but this order has spread widely throughout Faerun.

And what is said about them in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting on page 25.

Old Order (Neutral, Sometimes Good, Rarely Evil): Monks of the Old Order do not worship any deity, but are devoted to the philosophy espoused by a deity who is either now dead or has never existed on the Material Plane of Toril. The monks contradict themselves on this point, but the deity’s identity isn’t important to them, it’s the message they care about. The Old Order never has huge monasteries, but has spread widely throughout Faerûn. Monks of the Old Order can multiclass freely as rogues, sorcerers, and shadowdancers, but must maintain more monk levels than their combined levels of other classes.

What I'm trying to understand is what exactly does this group believe. Do they in a way "make up" their own god or their own philosophies? If anyone is able to provide their insight on this order, provide clarification, or how to rp the order, it would be greatly appreciated.

[goldstar]

They basically follow a self-percieved theological code of conduct (lawful), that they adhere to, which helps them keep disciplined and down the monk path of achieving some level of perfection.

[minion]

having done research on precisely this not long ago, what i've found is that what you have listed is virtually -all- that is mentioned anywhere about it. period. so...

in essence, even the order itself doesn't agree on Who or even What the philosophy they follow came from, and unfortunately nothing appears to spell out precisely what that philosophy is. the downside to that is... well... obvious. the upside is that, with a lack of -actual- codes/philosophies/etc, you're pretty free to decide upon them yourself (within reason... it's pretty clearly "monkishly" Lawful and relatively morally Neutral, after all).

i see this as being a pretty painfully gaping hole in the source material, but there's nothing to do about that now except fill it.

[Spirit of a Phoenix]

The impression I was getting from this order is that they really don't know what they believe except the code of being lawful. What I'm getting is that if you pick five random monks from this order they all won't necessarily believe the same thing. It feels like this order is just for anyone who is lawful, which doesn't help my understanding of this order, just because two characters with the same alignment aren't going to necessarily act the same or believe in generally the same thing.

I may be wrong, but this Order almost feels like it was thrown in there just to be able to include any monk. Since it doesn't say who this god was that is either dead or never existed, or what he believed exactly, it feels like you could honestly just make up a belief and roll with being in this order, but in that case there really isn't even a point to being a part of it and you would be just fine rping your character's philosophies without being part of this order. Which again just makes this widespread Order seem like it really isn't anything.

[minion]

agreed, C... A... Maelst... err... Kiki.

from the wording of the FRCS blurb you quoted, it's clear that they have -a- philosophy, but given the lack of any definition of what that philosophy is, all anyone can do is wing it, which means that no two Order monks are going to seem similar (sadly, likely not even similar enough to seem to be -familiar- with the same philosophy, much less to -follow- the same one). it does seem to function as a "catch all" monk "order" without actually imposing any specific code of behavior or ideals.

there's only two ways to change this, though, and i don't know which is more problematic. one, remove the Order from the list of monk orders that give multiclassing options, thereby giving no statistical benefit to a monk belonging to it, essentially recognizing it as being nearly the same thing as being "non-ordered." or two, entrust someone(s) to breathe some life into it and create some sort of ethic/code/etc, giving the Order a sense of validity in terms of the multiclassing restrictions (and giving people an RP tool for playing Order monks, of course). the problems come from the fact that it has already existed this long as-is. i don't know how many people that would affect, or whether it would be fair to them (full disclosure: i do not play a monk of this order nor do i plan to any time soon, if ever).

i think if someone -did- create that code, there would be plenty of people who would use it in the future (and no doubt greatly appreciate it, or at the very least the effort), but unless it were made FRC canon and obligatory, it still wouldn't be universal, leaving the Order in the much the same quagmire it exists in now.

[epicspire]

the reason it is so vauge is because the order itself is so old. over the course of many many centuries or millennia or whatever. Just like how their are many different denominations of Christianity in the RL - except the old order doesn't even have the deity concept down.

I think it would make interesting RP for a monk of the Old Order to interact with another monk of the Old Order and discover the widely differing views of each other. perhaps one path decided to go down a certain "Domain" of said god and the other decided to follow a separate "Domain" of the same god,.. and over the course of time and (Demi)Human error some ideals were lost or added either though malicious means or simple translation errors or other mishaps intentional or not.

I had a monk of the Old Order on another server that worshiped Entropy and followed the Philosophy of Entropy,.. i believed i handled it very well - Entropy being an order of chaos and more a cult than a religion, but my Monk's ideals and personal code worked with it... my favorite Monk i ever played.

[malclave]

*casts Animate Dead Thread*

So... I recently started an Old Order monk, and am still trying to nail down (as much as I can) what server lore is on this Order. I'm aware of how scarce FR canon lore is.

I found an FR sourcebook reference to a deity which never existed on Abeir-Toril, and which non-FR materials indicate would be appropriate for a monk (and a dwarven monk at that). There's also an associated philosophy which I'm using as the basis of his monkish spirituality.

I'm confident that my choices fit with the character creation rules and FR canon, but I want to make sure that I'm consistent with any FRC-specific lore. For example, although the character is technically Faithless (in that he does not have a "legal" patron deity), there are several deities which he would venerate: some because of how the non-existent deity did not appear in FR and others because he's a demi-human and respects his racial deities.

So, is there any Old Order history on the server I should know about, or is the Order still as vague as it seems?

[Razgriz]

Feb 8, 2020 5:02:36 GMT -5 malclave said:

*casts Animate Dead Thread*

So... I recently started an Old Order monk, and am still trying to nail down (as much as I can) what server lore is on this Order. I'm aware of how scarce FR canon lore is.

I found an FR sourcebook reference to a deity which never existed on Abeir-Toril, and which non-FR materials indicate would be appropriate for a monk (and a dwarven monk at that). There's also an associated philosophy which I'm using as the basis of his monkish spirituality.

I'm confident that my choices fit with the character creation rules and FR canon, but I want to make sure that I'm consistent with any FRC-specific lore. For example, although the character is technically Faithless (in that he does not have a "legal" patron deity), there are several deities which he would venerate: some because of how the non-existent deity did not appear in FR :) and others because he's a demi-human and respects his racial deities.

So, is there any Old Order history on the server I should know about, or is the Order still as vague as it seems?

Of all the western Faerun monastic orders, I would say the Old Order is one of the most if not the most eastern-like. Instead of living to the ideals of a deity, its monks pursue abtract concepts and ideals to seek perfection and illumination.

In a way, the vague nature of it also allows for some creative freedom when it comes to differen sects (that could be represented by the alignments that it includes).

[Raven Credale]

This order has been a pretty fun one for me to have a character be in. True I may write my Half Elven Monk (who is lawful neutral) to be sassy at times but she also has her moments of wisdom, albeit they aren't seen all that much. Nevertheless I've molded my character around the concept of "no one is innately evil".

Now as for the whole deity thing, yeah I had her be a follower of Torm, but later expanded that to her seeking knowledge on the Deity Auppenser since both deities have many similarities. She's still very philosophical about the world and people in it but her sassy nature does a decent job at hiding the fact she's wiser than she looks at times.

...Not sure if this helps ya any but thought I'd give my input on the Old Order and what it can help create.