Roleplaying Your Mage: Sorcerer or Wizard?

[Shamoke]

Oct 16, 2010 4:17:19 GMT -5 EDM Entori said:

I probably should say "can" instead of "do"..

Because the class can take spellcraft, (the art of learning and building spells), I assume it is a skill that comes natural to that class, and while they do not all have to.

I feel that one would eventually do so, as a class skill to not ever take a class skill, to me is funny. and I think 3.5 forces you to take some class skills each level, (not certain).


but to my point I do not feel sorcerers shoot out specific trigger sequences to specific spells, at a whim of "natural knowledge"

I feel they have to experience that, sorcerers are also limited, they cannot cast all spells, like a wizard can, I feel this means they lack the ability to, so they are limited to what they experience. thats a personal opinion while sorcerers can deselect spells on level up, that to me represents them experiencing a new spell and taking it in use of one over another, I do not feel this should be a concious act, but one as if one took up a new instrument, like the clairinet to the sax, after so long the skill of playing the sax would degrade.

(I did not wish to hijack the thread, but the link that started my thoughts can be found here: frc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=roleplaydiscussion&action=display&thread=14026)

Sorcerers vs Wizards

The goal of this thread is to discuss the similarities and differences between the two available mage classes, the Sorcerer and Wizard. While the spells they cast are the same, the process of obtaining such knowledge is vastly different. I would like to start with an emphasis on the process and the trigger sequence, as my quote of Entori suggests.

I remember Entori and Shamoke talking about this in game. The trigger sequences of spells are exactly the same for Wizards and Sorcerers. Meaning, if a spell requires a wizard to (ic) throw a vial of magical dust, a sorcerer has to do it too. That being said, I find it hard to believe if a sorcerer tries to say "I cast this spell by accident. I still need to control my power. etc." Simply put, the sorcerer still has to learn the trigger sequence.

As far as preparation goes, Entori is correct again. Wizards study for hours in the preparation of spells, up to the point of the trigger sequence. For example, they may prepare a material component, and say 3/4 of the required arcane words, leaving the last 1/4 (a complicated hand movement and speaking the final arcane words) as the trigger sequence. I know I am simplifying this a lot, but it is just for visualization. In FR reality, it has to do with the wizard digging into his subconscious, which can be confusing.

It is still a mystery as to why sorcerers need to only do the trigger sequence to cast spells. The predominant theory is that since magic courses through their veins, it is as if the preparation is "naturally" already there.

To address ic reasons for why sorcerers can only drop/learn spells on lvlup, I have a few ideas. One, sorcerers are naturally chaotic; The idea of sitting and studying is very unappealing to them, and they keep it to a minimum; I say this because it is a misconception that sorcerers NEVER study, and my reasoning for this was given in the previous paragraphs (they take points in spellcraft, and still need to learn trigger sequences); Two, their relationship with magic:

The way I view it, magic is much more "tacit" for sorcerers. Tacit knowledge means that it is difficult for the knowledge to transfer by just telling someone, or handing them a manual. An example of this would be riding a bike. None of us were handed a manual. It was something that we gained through experience. This also means that tacit knowledge is difficult to forget. You would have to stop the activity for a long time to "lose that feel for it."

Sorcerers do not wake up one morning and say "By Mystra's Magical Bosom, I know how to ride a bike!" and then the following morning say "Well bugger me sideways, I forgot how to ride a bike!" Entori suggested that the dropping of old spells to picking up new ones may not be a conscious choice. I provide an alternative: If you want an ic reason for your sorcerer dropping an old spell and picking up a new one, STOP CASTING THE OLD SPELL UNTIL YOU LEVEL UP, and roleplay that your character is working on a new one that he read about (or saw someone do).

I would love to hear some more comments from wizards and sorcerers alike (even bards), as this could provide a way for us to share ideas on how our characters grow and learn.

[Syd's Blue Sky]

People don't give charisma casters enough credit!

I always pictured spontaneous casting as something akin to a supernatural or a spell like ability, versus something that is PURELY training and hours of study. (I can already see someone picking that apart and pulling definitions out of the source...)

Consider thusly: Two "mages" want to be in the NBA. One is Steve Nash, at short the eff short, and the other is Magic Johnson. Obviously one has to work harder, because he's naturally less inclined than the other. Steve Nash is an example of a wizard. Magic Johnson, a sorcerer. He still must train, of course, but he has a natural trait that helps him along all the while.

Sorcerers and bards very much have a physical trait that sets them apart from wizards. It is something that simply -is- in there, just as surely as Magic Johnson simply -is- tall.

All a bard or a sorcerer needs to do is walk into a room and flip a switch because the house is already wired for power. A wizard has to learn how alternating currant works and buy himself a fiberglass ladder.

[probablyamage]

I was always under the impression that sorcerers couldn't cast a greater number of magic spells then they can because they just don't have the capacity for it. They're basically storing innate magical knowledge on certain spells, yes? At level up, you can consider their storage capacity like a bag. You can take something out to make more room, and then fill it with something else.

Needless to say though, my knowledge of sorcerers is rather limited.

[Levedara]

My interpretation of sorcerers is thusly, an innate connection to the weave that grants them the ability to channel magic by force of personal will. I reflect that charsima is noted as ones force of personality, and therefor personal will, not to be mistaken for willpower.

Vorel will explain her ability to cast magic as "Having the will to make of the mystery the words" What this means is that by her personal force she is able to control the weave to channel spells.

She does not randomly learn spells, rather she takes inspiration and guidance from her life, and from gemstones. Every stone has a meaning, and she spends a great deal of time moving stones about and capturing different ideas as to what these would mean for a spell. She's not learning like a wizard does, but rather seeking the sparks that inspire her to craft different magics. A star sapphire represents defense from magic. On its own this is easily interpreted as Spell Mantle. A red tears on its own is the mourning of loved ones slain in battle. This could represent say, wail of the banshee. Put them together and you may see something like shadow shield, defense from magic such as the wailing of those that mourn. And so fourth.

Vorel casts her spells with some very odd 'triggers', such as 'moredifferent place' when she's casting teleport, or 'die when I tell you to' when she casts a death spell. She doesn't generally use strings of arcane phrases, though she does make hand gestures. This is my interpretation of her force of personality guiding the weave more than actual knowledge of how it is working.

As for forgetting spells, there are a number of spells vorel rarely uses, if she isn't using spells, she'll spend time with her stones, until she finds 'new words' which may replace ones that have faded from her mind. I only drop spells if I go a great deal of time without using them. As such, her spell selection hasn't changed in ages, as every spell she has taken has been for a purpose defined by RP and fit her personality.

Another thing that I do with Vorel is that as she is channeling magic with her personal will, when she does so it saps some of her energy. When she has cast a great deal of spells she will become tired, listless, and should she run out of spells entirely she will actually collapse, too exhausted to do more. In lower levels this reflected that she was not very skilled at manipulating her connection to the weave and so it wore her out quickly. Now with a great amount of practice and aptitude she's able to do much more.

- Generally I expect wizards will be a lot more meticulous about their spells, and their study is hardly so haphazard.

- I'm not sure how much that will apply to anyone else, but there's my two copper on the matter anyways.

[soulfien]

i have a question....

Sorcerers... charisma based PC's. Does this mean that all sorcerers are beautiful people? An epic sorcerer or sorceress has the radient beauty that simply makes nymphs look like trolls in comparison or that all sorcerers are born leaders even more so than paladins?

I never liked thinking of sorcerers in this way.

In my head it doesn't match the class. You are an accidental spellcaster either by having archwizards for parents or by having some other spark that fueled your magic. That in itself says nothing about appearance, confidence, or leadership.

It's confusing to me.

Unlike bards, I always thought sorcerers should be intelligence based as well since to cast complex spells in a skilled manner as a high level sorcerer, you should have more than an 8 intelligence. But, as the class sits, an 8 intelligence and wisdom doesn't hinder your ability to outmatch an arch-wizard in a spell duel with your 25 charisma.

[Syd's Blue Sky]

Well, someone will come along and give a nice, full answer...

But for now, I'm just gonna say look at "charisma" in your sourcebook, and maybe check out Warlocks (the class) and the UMD class skill for how that all works with force of being.

It's actually a very inventive concept, and it answered all those questions to my satisfaction when I did that.

Too tired for more lol

[iangallowglas]

I always have played my sorcerer's as seeing or even hearing about a spell and then practicing on his own to learn how to cast it. In fact, I have always felt that each sorcerer cast his or her spells differently from any other sorcerer and from wizards. As to why a Sorcerer doesn't have that many spells, it's because figuring out spells on your own just isn't an easy thing to do since you don't have any blueprint to go off of. But really, you can pretty much RP a Sorcerer however you want since as far as I can tell there's no description of how it's done in any of the rule books, other than very general descriptions.

[Shamoke]

Oct 17, 2010 16:33:07 GMT -5 Levedara said:

My interpretation of sorcerers is thusly, an innate connection to the weave that grants them the ability to channel magic by force of personal will. I reflect that charsima is noted as ones force of personality, and therefor personal will, not to be mistaken for willpower.

Absolutely. Certain sourcebooks or online references will mention "will" or "imagination and creativity." I never interpreted this as "I'm going to invent my own way of casting Wail of the Banshee," but rather "I am going to increase my effectiveness with the spells that I already know." I do not necessarily disagree with how Vorel learns spells, because it is simply hard to define how a sorcerer learns. The Weave flows through them, the arcane words are already there. It could just be a matter of introspection to discover what the trigger sequence is to the spell that they feel inside of them. If that works for you, I like it, I am just not sure if D&D lets you pick your trigger sequence.

A big example I have used ic and ooc is gaining the extra missiles of Isaac's Greater Missile Storm. A wizard (in my understanding), after learning the basic spell, must study long and hard (through the levelup process) to gain those extra missiles per level. Example: He learned the algebra, now he's moving on to the calculus.

Sorcerers, in my interpretation, use their force of will and their imagination to increase the multitude of those missiles. They learn to draw upon their blood even deeper and more effectively. Example: The artist learned how to make basic red paint, but figured out that mixing certain shades can make his red more vibrant.

I compare wizards and sorcerers to musicians. Wizards go to Berklee School of Music and read sheet music, while sorcerers play by ear and read tablature. Sorcerers are born with perfect pitch, while wizards must train their ears vigorously.

[Shamoke]

Oct 17, 2010 16:49:38 GMT -5 @soulfien said:

i have a question....

Sorcerers... charisma based PC's. Does this mean that all sorcerers are beautiful people? An epic sorcerer or sorceress has the radient beauty that simply makes nymphs look like trolls in comparison or that all sorcerers are born leaders even more so than paladins?

I never liked thinking of sorcerers in this way.

In my head it doesn't match the class. You are an accidental spellcaster either by having archwizards for parents or by having some other spark that fueled your magic. That in itself says nothing about appearance, confidence, or leadership.

It's confusing to me.

Unlike bards, I always thought sorcerers should be intelligence based as well since to cast complex spells in a skilled manner as a high level sorcerer, you should have more than an 8 intelligence. But, as the class sits, an 8 intelligence and wisdom doesn't hinder your ability to outmatch an arch-wizard in a spell duel with your 25 charisma.

Intelligence would not fit the class at all, since intelligence implies that you know what the hell you're doing! If you want an example of why Charisma makes more sense, look up Wild Mages.

No source I have read indicates that having wizards as parents allows you to be a sorcerer. If that is true, it is news to me. As it stands, that doesn't make much sense to me.

In regards to beauty and personality, epic sorcerers are "mythical beings" as nwn puts it. In my view, it is the magic in their blood that grants them this "supernatural" character and beauty. Beauty does not necessarily imply physical attractiveness, but rather how people are so easily "drawn in" to you, or how well-kept you are. Two people could have close to equal beauty, but one of them is like a magnet to the opposite sex. That is where charisma comes into play.

Some people argue that you can be handsome or pretty without a good Charisma Score, but I would argue against it because that leaves D&D open to have EVERYONE be STUNNINGLY BEAUTIFUL without "putting points" into it. As it stands, Charisma is the only category that makes sense for it. Some people say you can be an excellent leader without beauty, but I regretfully find that hard to believe. Being good looking and having a solid personality makes you so much easier to follow.

In order for someone to progress as a sorcerer, they would have to have a deep imagination and a complex personality, and the magic in your blood grants you that. I would consider it a pretty big boost to confidence if you have the blood of Fey or Dragon or [insert ancient creature here] in you.

I hope that helps with your question.

[soulfien]

there's an arcane option for sorcerers from what I hear which makes sense to me because imagine if while you're mum is pregnant with you she was casting lvl 9 spells to fend off a huge army that dared strike against the town she was trying to settle down in.

The magic coursed through her body and found a foothold in you, a developing fetus. You were then bound to the weave as it was to you and after you were born, you began to warm or chill your milk according to your personal taste.

Or your father, in an attempt to master the weave, began trying to use sheer force of will to strengthen his spell casting abilities. This wizard practiced night and day until the magic began to take a small unnoticed hold in his body. This unseen trait was passed down to his son.

I like these explanations better than having a magical creature in your family line. But that's just me

[probablyamage]

As far as looks. I always figured that 18 was the limit. Everyone at or past 18 is awfully -awfully- attractive. But 25 isn't noticeably better than 18. After 18 it stops being about looks, and starts being more about personality. Take RDD's for instance. They get charisma bonuses as they take more RDD levels. This means that as they're growing scales, claws, wings and such they're gaining charisma.....Most people would -not- find a scaled woman more attractive than a non scaled. So its probably not the physical that their charisma bonus represents.

[Shamoke]

Ahh okay, that makes more sense Soulfiend. I am curious if that works. Also, if you don't like having a magical creature in your bloodline, you can go the "I survived a Slaadi egg" route! ;D

I like the idea there, Probablyamage.......I think I'll just call you Pam. I don't know if I see 18 as a limit, but one has to keep in mind good looks relative to one's race.

An Ogre with a Charisma score of 32 is NOT going to swoon an Elven maiden. An Elf with a Charisma score of 8 has a better shot.

[Syd's Blue Sky]

*coughs* CR 25 ancient gold in toolset has +9 cha mod... and that's only CR 25!

Mrowl.


One of the beautiful things about sorc/bard is that it can be so full of mystery. It leaves much up to the interpretation of the player... within reason, of course.

I want to make a... hefty body type female sorc with a half-orc head in a pink, red, green and brow skin tight body suit and roll CHA checks endlessly to seduce male PCs.

Merna: *drops her slice of pie on the floor. Bends over to pick it up with her hand and plops it back onto her plate. Farts while she does so - CHARISMA!* 18+12=30.

James: *can't..... help.... but peek....*


Okay, in all seriousness, though... Charisma as force of will is best exemplified by Warlocks, I feel. They SCARE people! They are cha based, and they use invocations not spells. They have bonuses to UMD due to, basically, their personalities... obviously they also have odd lineage, usually.. but... It's more of the same, but without "spells."

Favorite base class ever... Too bad they're so weak in NWN2...

Falchion+hideous blow... *twitch*

[Lokarn]

While Charisma has much to do with physical beauty, it also measures ones force of personality.

I like to think of it as an old school scale..

On one side of the scale, you have attractiveness on a purely physical nature. On the other side you have one's personality.

All of this has to be balanced within your CHA score, and it doesn't have to be equal parts.

Grushnak for instance is ugly, he's ugly even to his own kind. But his personality is one that commands attention. He is verbal, he is in your face, and he has no problem showing you he's the big boy on the block.

While my last character Onisha was pretty enough, but she had no personality that made you stop and pay attention to what ever she was doing.

I think of Sorcerers like that. It's not that they are all pretty and glamorous. Some of them just have "something" that makes you drawn to them, even though hey have a scar running down their face, or a charred arm. They still command your attention even though not necessarily your interests.

Pretty ones are just average, stereotypical representations of the class.

[Shamoke]

I think I'll go with Lokarn's idea in balancing beauty with personality.

On a side note to my fellow mages, how do you guys roleplay Premonition? I never liked the idea of it just making you move out of the way, because it didn't make much sense to me why it would deplete.

I view Premonition so far like this: An orc is slashing downward, you see it a split second before, and concentrate magical shield energy to where the blow is. I see it sort of as a concentrated stoneskin that you move around.

Any thoughts?

[828stingstingneo]

I like the analogy of mages to musicians. I, too, think of them as right brain vs. left brain casters. As far as both requiring the same components, that fits with the musical analogy as well because whether you are a piano man in a blues band or a concert pianist, you need the same instrument to work with. I guess I have always roleplayed a mage's studying as exactly that, not pre-casting part of the spell and leaving the last part of it to be executed when he needs it. Perhaps that would be better used as roleplay for quickened spells.

As far as roleplaying a sorcerer's charisma (or any character's charisma), I do not equate charisma entirely with looks. For charisma, I like the analogy of acting. If you think about your favorite movie actors, maybe some of them are good looking, and maybe that has helped them become successful. (Unfortunately, I think beauty is much more a requirement to be cast as a female actress.) However, there are also some really great actors who aren't good looking at all but you still love watching them because of their force of personality. That is charisma in action.

Another way I like to think of charisma as a separate entity from beauty is with the intimidation factor. A hideously scarred leader could have a lot of points in intimidate and use that skill, augmented by his high charisma, to get people to do what he wants. In his case, his total lack of beauty could be an asset.

Likewise, a beauty could have low charisma, standing shyly and not talking much, not saying anything interesting when he does speak.

Charisma isn't all about beauty to me; it's about getting what you want with what you've got. I admit my sorceress Selee is the stereotypical beauty, but it is her charisma that allows her to use her beauty as a tool: to flirt and manipulate to get what she wants. Ugliness can just as easily be charisma's tool if you know how to use it.

Also, to say that sorcerers are "naturally chaotic" I think goes a little too far. The Player's Handbook 3.0 says, "Sorcery favors the free, chaotic, creative spirit over the disciplined mind, so sorcerers tend slightly toward chaos over law" (emphasis added), but they can be of any alignment.

[lakhena]

Oct 18, 2010 9:45:39 GMT -5 828stingstingneo said:

Likewise, a beauty could have low charisma, standing shyly and not talking much, not saying anything interesting when he does speak.

I had a guy-friend like this in college. My female friends were terribly jealous until they realized how utterly boring he was once I introduced him to them... but he /was/ nice and nice to have around as eye-candy!

Beauty does not equal high charisma. That said, there are way too many beautiful people in nwn pws. Make some ugly pcs with high charisma, people! Do it!

[Malignant Naricissism]

Oct 18, 2010 10:30:28 GMT -5 lakhena said:

Beauty does not equal high charisma. That said, there are way too many beautiful people in nwn pws. Make some ugly pcs with high charisma, people! Do it!

Well, I play a high charisma dwarf, does that count?

[Levedara]

When I see high charisma scores I expect one to be somewhat forceful via 'personal will' as I mentioned in my previous post.

To exemplify this I will tend to exaggerate speech and motions of my character in situations where her 'force of personality' comes to bare. Such emotes as

*Her mood seems to change with rapidity, bringing the force of a thunderstorm to her suddenly hot tempered words leaving it crystal clear that she finds the topic distasteful*

or whatnot. I will then add a charisma roll at the end so the point is put through that she's really serious about this. Or when she's feeling particularly serene I'll include things such as

*An aura of calm irradiates notably from this woman as she stands with a serene smile on her face. Her words are spoken with a gentle calm that those around her may find soothing*

These are examples of a forceful personality that is palpable, rather than just saying something and not having any particular weight to it other than the words.

Words can mean a lot more if you give them some 'gusto' when your character has some force behind them. To me this is far more important than the fact that she's pretty. Of course, this is speaking from trying to play a 36 charisma.

[fred]

Oct 18, 2010 10:30:28 GMT -5 lakhena said:

...there are way too many beautiful people in nwn pws.

Ooh, ooh! I must derail now!

My favorite is how many of the human males are six foot six or taller, and how many of the human females are taller than six feet and, as CC would say, stacked.

It's like a Robert Heinlein novel sometimes, I swear.

[Syd's Blue Sky]

James is 5'8!

[Malignant Naricissism]

Oct 18, 2010 11:12:06 GMT -5 Syd's Blue Sky said:

James is 5'8!

Ander is 6'0", only because I'm the same height in real life.
Hrothgar is just a big northerner. I figure like how the Romans saw the German tribes as just gigantic, that's him.
And Ruarch, well he's a dwarf.

[Shamoke]

Oct 18, 2010 9:45:39 GMT -5 828stingstingneo said:

Also, to say that sorcerers are "naturally chaotic" I think goes a little too far. The Player's Handbook 3.0 says, "Sorcery favors the free, chaotic, creative spirit over the disciplined mind, so sorcerers tend slightly toward chaos over law" (emphasis added), but they can be of any alignment.

This is what I meant by "naturally chaotic." They naturally favor the free, chaotic environment. I could be "naturally a good basketball player" but I might dislike the sport.

[simondelsolis]

Charisma is a combination of factors, but usually derived from the ability to charm or lead people.

People with High Charisma - are not necessarily handsome and vice versa.

Adoph Hitler. I'm not femail but I can't imagine he's all that handsome. So Charismatic he was able to convince an entire nation, the hope of the nation required an Austrian lead them and try to eliminate an entire race of people.

Bill Clinton.- He's an old man but still manages to get people to listen to him. He's an accomplished liar but yet people still believe him.

Barrack Obama- Another accomplished Liar but people still believe him.

Robin Williams - Classic Bard type. Very charismatic, I wouldn't say he's got a forceful personality.

I've met people with forceful personalities. They tend to be very polarizing. 1/4 will actually like, 1/2 will tolerate and 1/4 will strongly dislike. I typically do not consider these people to have a high charisma. Usually they are very intelligent though, and appear self confident.

So is a Confident person a Highly Charismatic person, or something else.

I've known self confident people that do not have forceful personalities but yet most everyone they meets likes.

[iangallowglas]

Oct 18, 2010 10:49:50 GMT -5 fred said:

Oct 18, 2010 10:30:28 GMT -5 lakhena said:

...there are way too many beautiful people in nwn pws.

Ooh, ooh! I must derail now!

My favorite is how many of the human males are six foot six or taller, and how many of the human females are taller than six feet and, as CC would say, stacked.

It's like a Robert Heinlein novel sometimes, I swear.

Continues with the de-rail.
Seamus is 6'6' but I made him a little tall to begin with because of his fairly recent dragon parentage (his grandfather was the dragon, even though he doesn't know that, I do). The rest of my characters are around 6' (between 5'10 and 6'2') because I'm about 6'1' IRL and it's easy for me to identify with that height. Seamus also falls under the category of being the big good looking, musclebound, chiseled guy to account for his 26 STR , 16 CON, and 18 CHA. I try and play his personality such that it's forcefull when he wants it to be and laid back the rest of the time. But he could be an arrogant ----- when he wanted to be, which may or may not be charismatic depending on the situation and people involved.

But a person can be ugly and still be very charismatic, just think Abraham Lincoln.

[Syd's Blue Sky]

Oct 18, 2010 10:36:47 GMT -5 Malignant Naricissism said:

Oct 18, 2010 10:30:28 GMT -5 lakhena said:

Beauty does not equal high charisma. That said, there are way too many beautiful people in nwn pws. Make some ugly pcs with high charisma, people! Do it!

Well, I play a high charisma dwarf, does that count?

His beard is drop dead gorgeous.


Basically everything that has come up so far is explained just as well in the "Charisma" section of the 3.5 PhB...

[DM Smass (Retired)]

Oct 18, 2010 10:49:50 GMT -5 fred said:

Oct 18, 2010 10:30:28 GMT -5 lakhena said:

...there are way too many beautiful people in nwn pws.

Ooh, ooh! I must derail now!

My favorite is how many of the human males are six foot six or taller, and how many of the human females are taller than six feet and, as CC would say, stacked.

It's like a Robert Heinlein novel sometimes, I swear.

Remember - adventurers are not "normal". They probably represent less than a tenth of a percent of the population. Since adventuring is a physical activity it would make sense that most adventurers are above average in height and weight. As far as the boxum female characters go - remember that most of them are played by men...gah!

[simondelsolis]

All this talk of Charisma and the force of personality. How many players actually RP a character with a lower than average Charisma, Wisdom, or Intelligence.

Low Charisma - I contend tend to be people with odious habits some may find offensive. In some cases, it could be a distinct stench or obviously unclean..
I currently play one that is "Downer" He's one of those people it's hopeless. I'm sure we've all met someone who's negative attitude was a put off.

Cantankerous?- there is a reason why a Charismatic Dwarf is the exception rather than the rule.

How about Low Wisdom- Since this influences the ability of a person to resist mental attacks, and be gullible, I tend to take this as one that is easily fooled. Not one with much common sense. The Players handbook says its possible someone with low wisdom can be absent minded.

Low intelligence seems easy enough- I've seen quite a few "Dumb" characters-
I contend Low Intelligence reflects difficulty in learning. Dumb gets hurt doing something because he lacks the ability to determine two actions will result in pain.

The question is..how does one balance a higher than avg wisdome with a lower than average intelligence or vice versus?

[Malignant Naricissism]

There's a short description in the DMG I believe, or maybe PHB, on how the various mental stats can interact with one another personality wise.

A character with high intelligence but low wisdom may be smart but absentminded, or knowledgeable but lacking in common sense. A character with high intelligence but low charisma may be a know it all or a reclusive scholar. A smart character lacking in both may put her foot in her mouth often.

A character with high wisdom but low intelligence may be aware, but simple. A character with high wisdom but low charisma knows enough to speak carefully...The character lacking in both...is uncouth and unsophisticated.

A character with high charisma but low intelligence can usually pss herself off as knowledgeable until he meets a true expert. A charismatic character with low wisdom may be popular but she doesn't know who her real friends are. A character lacking in both...is likely to be shallow and unaware of others' feelings.

[Lady Frost]

Oct 18, 2010 15:19:11 GMT -5 simondelsolis said:

The question is..how does one balance a higher than avg wisdom with a lower than average intelligence or vice versus?

You need to meet Kethoth. He is very smart but sometimes he isn't quite all there. He commonly doesn't get jokes and says lewd things on accident and doesn't think twice about it.

IMO, very simply:

Intelligence = knowledge

Wisdom = how you use knowledge

Opposite Kethoth: Zoe has "normal" intelligence (though it is usually buffed) and high wisdom. I don't RP that she knows everything but she does have a very deep sense of how to talk to people, the right things to say, and a good understanding of how to use the knowledge she does have in the best ways possible.