Stronger IC punishments for "losing"

[Lady Frost]

Recently during my last Player Advocate questioning session the topic came up about stronger punishments for "getting caught". Too often players are unconcerned with the "loss" that comes with loosing. Now, the point of this topic isn't to make dying or executions cost more XP or gold. It really isn't about getting rules to back it up. The point is to see what the rest of the community thinks about other types of "loss" and how each of us goes about upping the stakes for ourselves or what kind of guideline we would like to see player hold themselves to.

On another server I played on I was allowed to play a special race. I played a vampire. The deal was, since my character could almost never actually die due to simply returning to her coffin, if she was actually destroyed somehow I couldn't play her for an extended period of time. Now that was not my specific rule but I certainly found it an acceptable one and one that I bring to this server. If Zoe dies in a place she would not likely be found I don't play her for a while. If she ever suffered a major PvP defeat I wouldn't play her for a while either unless RP dictated otherwise.

I know of a number of players that hold stricter standards for death than the rules require and I personally like that choice. Some choose to not and some have never thought about it. It is of course each of our choices. I would like to open it up for discussion though. How do you make the death rules stricter on yourself or why do you choose not to? And, how would you like to see the server on average treat major character defeats?

[Lokarn]

By now it is no secret that Wyn was once executed for the murder of about 13 people in the Wailing Wheel Inn in Suzail.

What may not be known or remembered is that I banned her myself for a three week period after to allow the defeat to have a lot more sting.

I did this because of a few reasons. I thought it was a large enough loss that she'd need to be shelved for a while in order to add some realism to being executed.

I also did it because I received a huge alignment shift, one that she still has not recovered from. And I thought I needed to add weight to that as well for her.

A long while back when I was playing Onisha she attempted to rob a bunch of dwarves. She made a miscalculation, and that allowed her to be defeated.

In order to escape questioning and be forced to give up her secrets, she killed herself. Those who were there know what happened next, and that rp needn't be revealed in an ooc way, but due to what did happen I discussed with the DM about a self imposed break for 2 weeks.

I felt these were necessary extra penalties to provide the "winners" with a little extra gravy, and so I could accurately represent the gravity of the losses those two received.

I won't ask anyone to do what I do, but it does allow the other side a little time to enjoy the win.

[ancientempathy]

So is the objective of the OP to talk more about loss from death - how there can be various applications to experience a burden more - or to discuss loss more in general other than that? The former is heavily mentioned numerous times, while the later is implied.

Because one type of loss is having gone to jail and being let go, afterall. It's not just about death. There's also badluck as a form of loss, and Forgotten Realms just has a lovely deity to represent such an aspect.

Only asking for clarifications before joining-in, so I don't go off on a tangent for mistaking a perspective.

[Lady Frost]

Oct 15, 2010 4:44:30 GMT -5 @ancientempathy said:

So is the objective of the OP to talk more about loss from death - how there can be various applications to experience a burden more - or to discuss loss more in general other than that? The former is heavily mentioned numerous times, while the later is implied.

Because one type of loss is having gone to jail and being let go, afterall. It's not just about death. There's also badluck as a form of loss, and Forgotten Realms just has a lovely deity to represent such an aspect.

Only asking for clarifications before joining-in, so I don't go off on a tangent for mistaking a perspective.

It is usually death, but it doesn't always have to be. I guess it depends on what you consider a major defeat. Most people don't consider it a major defeat unless death is involved and the situation was more than a simple PvE mishap.

[828stingstingneo]

When I first started here, I intended to permadeath all my characters. I haven't permadeathed Elvalith, though, because she made friends who also invested in her. There are a couple of alts I also don't intend to permadeath for other reasons. I will still probably permadeath most other alts, though.

I haven't really weighed the pros and cons of this idea in my own mind yet, but the idea occurs to me that if we remove the portal back into the Prime Material Plane from the Fugue Plane, characters who die without a raise would have to stay dead until the next reset. This would be another way to increase the death penalty a bit without adding gp or xp loss. Alternately, the portal could be set to only activate for the low level characters to give them some leeway.

[Levedara]

When Mithika committed suicide it was actually meant to be perma, until DM Urgh who had promoted a lot of Mithika's story stated that the dragons might save her if I wanted. I accepted that, and retired her for 3 months to represent the time spent recovering from the trauma that lead to her demise as well as get acquainted with her 'family'.

I don't expect that everyone will want to take a huge long break, but when Mith came back, many people were very excited to see her, and I was also able to portray an affected character, with notable personality changes after her time 'away'. This was important character growth in my mind. Downtime can be rewarding, if you have the patience for it.

--

[Syd's Blue Sky]

Oct 15, 2010 4:44:30 GMT -5 @ancientempathy said:

. . .There's also badluck as a form of loss, and Forgotten Realms just has a lovely deity to represent such an aspect. . .

Oliver will be delighted to pray for curses all around.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sometimes death is more significant than normal, and I think there should be a self imposed consequences for things. It's called realistic roleplay?

James is currently involved in something of a self penance, and I'm enjoying it a great deal. I consider adding consequences to my defeat to be the most selfish thing I could possibly do considering the amount of flavor it has added to him, so I don't think I quite understand the sacrifice angle. As such, I would much rather bring my char back immediately so that I can RP his defeat rather than have him sit in my vault for a few days and come back fully invigorated. This option seems much more realistic (as well as more INTERESTING) in most situations, though there are obviously going to be exceptions.

Off the topic of death there are plenty of unfortunate situations that can befall a character when they "lose." For instance let's just say someone found out you're a cleric of Shar, or a best friend just found out you killed someone. Maybe your girlfriend found about about that donkey show.

All of these have LASTING effects, while death I find to usually be a temporary effect. I TYPICALLY see that the more substantial conflicts are ones that never result in death at all... Especially with that pesky memory rule.

That having been said, whenever I intend to PvP someone I do everything I can to make sure that the RP lasts long enough for them to remember who killed them... OR I just flat out send them a tell and give the thumbs up to just pretend that fight lasted longer. I think this nourishes RP in the end for everyone, and it's something I would like to see more often.

I guess my point is that if you want to RP loosing then shut up and do it! It's fun! If your character "loosing" is somehow upsetting to you, then I might recommend you take a step back and remember that this is about your character, not you. Let them loose and have some fun doing it.

[soulfien]

I think the town laws have been lax lately. There are currently people attacking adventurers and townspeople in town and even in the last few months (good and evil) who are identified and witnessed, yet still run free in and out of the town or city they made the offense in. The guard is extremely lazy these days.

I think the punishments (when enacted) are fine as far as the xp loss is concerned, but I think if you are executed then your PC shouldn't be instantly raised. Period. In fact, I don't think they should be raised at all, but that's just my feelings on the matter.

If you are locked up for mass murder on a massive scale and you are then executed, what government would simply hand over your corpse to your buddies allowing you to be simply raised that afternoon and then allowed to continue your evil murdering ways?

As far as losing in PvP? Permadeath unless IC'ly raised by someone.

[Deleted]

I think that shelving the character or such penalties makes a lot of sense in some pvp situations, but not all. I would hate to see a blanket rule about it when players are capable of dealing with it themselves. That being said, I could see the punishment for executions including a certain amount of time your character had to stay dead.

My personal take on staying dead for longer/etc is that my character's defeat will be directly related to the amount of rp leading up to the conflict. If there was virtually no buildup before the pvp then I probably won't penalize my character at all. On the other hand, If it was an interesting plot to take down one of my characters I would definitely up the stakes to at least a temporary leave of absence for the character. RP'ing a limp or being weakened for a period of time would also be an option.

I don't see permadeath as a realistic option. This only works on a server where permadeath is universal.

[Munroe]

FRC is not a Permadeath server. We will not be forcing permadeath on any characters whose players are not also permanently banned.

We do disallow characters that have invalid domains and irreparable mechanical problems, but we do not prevent their players from starting the character over as a valid character unless the player is also being banned.

This is not going to change.

=================================================

We currently have 250 xp/level loss (with potential level loss) if your character is executed. It SHOULD be uniform across the board for executions but I'm not sure it has been treated as such, what with some DM-assisted ways of rescuing prisoners awaiting execution and things like that.

We did have 1000 xp/level loss (with guaranteed level loss) if the character was executed, but some found that to be too harsh.

As for handing the body over to an executed person's buddies, that doesn't seem odd to me. It's perfectly reasonable to hand over the body of the deceased for burial/cremation/care by loved ones. Execution should be such that it would require at least a Resurrection.

Resurrection should be harder to come by than it is in-game though since D&D Resurrections normally require holy water and a sum of diamonds valuing 10,000 gp as material components for the spell. (Material components are consumed in the casting.)

It's also arguable whether unholy water counts as holy water for the purposes of a material component so Resurrection may need water blessed by a priest that makes holy water rather than unholy water. (Of course may churches have holy water freely available, such as the church of Sune, that has it in holy water founts and also presumably in their bath.)

[cmwise]

This is an interesting topic, because as a new player it has been the most confusing for me. Here's why; I have heard or witnessed the burning of GG, the murder of several characters and the subsequent executions of certain players.

The confusing part comes when the next day you see this executed player walking around the very same town they just ravaged and burned the day before. Or the public announcement of an execution, only to see that same character walking about the town quite healthy.

What is the problem with that you say? It makes it most difficult to RP such things as executed characters walking about, characters that are wanted for some crime, or notorious characters that are known assassins. It would be easier if they were in disguise, acting suspiciously or such.

But I can't really say what would be a solution to such an unrealistic or non immersive situation... (frankly other servers dont do all that well with these sorts of things). The worst i have seen for wanted characters is being banned from certain cities and killed on sight by the guards.

Things usually get worked out with tells but still..there is enough of a criminal element in FRC to warrant some sort of standards for RPing these types of things?

[soulfien]

I also think that thanks to Greatgaunt being in martial law, people with hoods, helmets, or disguises without making rolls for being in a disguise (last I knew this was still a rule, but I never see it enforced), the militia should be performing searches on these people, demanding that they either leave or reveal who they are.

And with all the phelzaron copies running around, wouldn't phelzaron be shot on sight just in case he's one of the copies?

I think all this could be a penalty for "losing". The town really DOES become wary.

Just saying.

This is why I am convinced GG is a Neutral Evil aligned town. Nothing is enforced there.

[soulfien]

Oct 16, 2010 11:30:21 GMT -5 Munroe said:

As for handing the body over to an executed person's buddies, that doesn't seem odd to me. It's perfectly reasonable to hand over the body of the deceased for burial/cremation/care by loved ones. Execution should be such that it would require at least a Resurrection.

I know the Crown isn't stupid when it comes to handing over a vicious multiple offender to his cohorts who's only goal is to resurrect him from the dead that very afternoon. IC'ly it would indeed be something very odd.

I understand this is not a permadeath server, but it's not IC for the Crown to execute someone and allow them to be instantly rezzed.

This is only my opinion of course. I was going to perma Garistan after his execution but he was acquitted at the last moment.

[Munroe]

Oct 16, 2010 11:48:24 GMT -5 cmwise said:

This is an interesting topic, because as a new player it has been the most confusing for me. Here's why; I have heard or witnessed the burning of GG, the murder of several characters and the subsequent executions of certain players.

The confusing part comes when the next day you see this executed player walking around the very same town they just ravaged and burned the day before. Or the public announcement of an execution, only to see that same character walking about the town quite healthy.

If you see this happening, this IS a problem. Execution carries with it a clause that, should the person be returned to life they are also exiled from the town in question for a set period of time.

[simondelsolis]

Oct 16, 2010 11:54:25 GMT -5 @soulfien said:

I also think that thanks to Greatgaunt being in martial law, people with hoods, helmets, or disguises without making rolls for being in a disguise (last I knew this was still a rule, but I never see it enforced), the militia should be performing searches on these people, demanding that they either leave or reveal who they are.

And with all the phelzaron copies running around, wouldn't phelzaron be shot on sight just in case he's one of the copies?

I think all this could be a penalty for "losing". The town really DOES become wary.

Just saying.

This is why I am convinced GG is a Neutral Evil aligned town. Nothing is enforced there.[/quote]

You know, I think you may have something there.

I think PCs wear hoods and helmets far too much. Inside talking with friends, hoods cover their faces...Many will say "doesn't cover face". Unless I'm specifically told it doesnt cover face I have I assume the " *Smiles goodnaturedly* " is not seen.

As one that has worn a cloak with a hood, I promise you, the hood gets annoying. I don't know anyone that can wear a hat non stop for days at a time without removing the hat to rub the scalp.

I think you may be right, Great Gaunt may just be Neutral Evil.

[Lokarn]

TN at worst imo

[Malignant Naricissism]

Or just true neutral and the rulers don't give a damn...

[Charon's Claw]

What bothers me the most after an execution of a character is seeing them back walking around, not necessarily in the town they should be banished from, and speaking like they are immortal or something because they managed to be raised from the dead after the execution.

Execution should be one of the ultimate defeats, and personally if any of my characters are executed, or even defeated in PvP by an enemy, I shelve them for a while and sit the rest of the plot/battle/storyline out of the fight. When the particular plot/fight/storyline that caused my character to die is resolved is when I let them come back.

If I did not have another character, I would play them but remove myself from said plot/battle/storyline until its resolution. It's kind of like dodge ball. You get hit, you're out. At least to me personally. It seems to mostly solve the issues of being killed, getting raised, then seeking revenge ect. Circular battles and grudges such as that tend to get old fast.

[828stingstingneo]

CC's approach seems reasonable to me. Perhaps I could even stomach PvP a little better if this was the way things were universally handled. However, how do you determine when the plot/fight/storyline is over, especially if you're not playing at the moment because your character is "out"? Maybe you got slaughtered in a general attack on Greatgaunt and you don't even know what the plot is because you just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. Only happening to see one or two parts of a plot is common for me. Also, what if your character's death is part of another character's long term goals and there's just no end in sight? I guess I'd be for coming back after a time but not having to be involved with that character anymore. Yeah, you killed my character, and yeah, it was no fun for me, but at least I don't have to deal with your character ever again.

[Charon's Claw]

Typically if my character is killed as a side effect of the plot, and not because they were involved I still give them some time off, to represent the severity of the wounds, ect. However I bring them back sooner than if they were heavily involved.

I treat it more like PvE death at that point. I typically give my characters a couple days off even if they die in PvE.

Also if it's difficult to determine when a plot is over, and I really, really wanna play the character again I do bring them back. However I do not dive into the plot/fight/storyline if it isn't over and does come back up.

[Charon's Claw]

Generally it's not a hard coded set rule that I give myself, but a guideline that's flexible depending upon the situation. It's difficult to give rules and exact details of what to do every time, because each situation is different.

Overall I just use some common sense, and if I'm beaten, I give who has beaten me their due. They earned it, so I fade away for a while, and I don't have characters come back seeking revenge. All characters are technically "immortal". We know that, however a character should not really think they are, IMO. Unless they're delusional, but really.. that can be kind of lame if you use that to bring them back over and over and over and just rub it in people's faces that your back. It doesn't make any friends ICly and OOCly.

The 30 minute death amnesia rule is there after all, not because we want people to sit with a stopwatch and time each and every minute and second so they know what they remember and what they do not. It is there to avoid needless and endless cycles of kill revenge, kill revenge, ect. Often times I will take death amnesia even longer if it will prevent a silly cycle like that.

[Syd's Blue Sky]

Oct 15, 2010 15:04:17 GMT -5 @soulfien said:

I think the town laws have been lax lately. There are currently people attacking adventurers and townspeople in town and even in the last few months (good and evil) who are identified and witnessed, yet still run free in and out of the town or city they made the offense in. The guard is extremely lazy these days.

I think the punishments (when enacted) are fine as far as the xp loss is concerned, but I think if you are executed then your PC shouldn't be instantly raised. Period. In fact, I don't think they should be raised at all, but that's just my feelings on the matter.

If you are locked up for mass murder on a massive scale and you are then executed, what government would simply hand over your corpse to your buddies allowing you to be simply raised that afternoon and then allowed to continue your evil murdering ways?

As far as losing in PvP? Permadeath unless IC'ly raised by someone.

I think that takes the fun out of it.

[Syd's Blue Sky]

Then, of course, there are times when death brings us all together!

...What? This isn't how your family celebrates thanksgiving? Who killed the bird?

I may or may not (honestly don't know!) be involved with something that started.. well, picked up after a long break, with a PvP resulting in death. I dunno what the 30 minutes covered, but dammit I'm not letting a PvP remove my character from a plot line when it's just going to add to RP for all involved. This is probably why I don't see anyone complaining about it. The word of the law and the spirit of the law don't always frollick hand in hand.


Let's see... worst case scenario...

"I don't want that player getting a DM reward so I'm going to brain them and remove them!"

I dunno about that... Obviously this should -never- happen, but this is just a point I would like to make in response to CC.

His approach isn't my approach. I've been involved in two events plots and one maybe event plot in my three years here, and I've been killed at least once in every single one of them.

EDIT: hey, I forgot to paste that sentence back in! This one was a mess. lol