Classes - How do you think of them?

[JCrux]

The recent discussion about making rogues unique has surfaced some thoughts I've had about the various classes implemented in NWN. I'm wondering if other players think of them the same way. Instead of covering each class I'll pick a few examples.

Broad Professions
In my mind rogues and fighters fall in this category. The rogue class is a broad category that could be used to create a scout, a trap expert, a pick pocket, a thug, a detective, etc. Likewise there is a lot of variety in the fighter class: the strong two-handed weapon warrior, the sword and shield knight, the archer, the two-weapon duelist, etc.

Narrow Professions
The assassin class is an example of this. I don't think you should take an assassin level unless your PC is an assassin for hire. ^* On the flip side, I think you can play an assassin for hire without taking levels in the assassin class. There can still be some variety in this class but primarily it's for PCs opting to murder someone by striking with surprise from the shadows and killing swiftly. The Harper Scout and Purple Dragon Knight classes are also strong examples of narrow professions.

States of Being
The Dragon Disciple class is an example of this. It's not so much a profession as it is a state of being. Granted it's one that is limited to certain classes (which is justified by a state of being, having dragon blood). I see the Pale Master the same way. It is a state of being, but one limited to those who pursue the necromancer profession.

I'm curious to hear what people think of the divine classes. Is becoming a cleric a profession that your PC chooses? Is it a state of being, being in close communion with your god? Is it a combination of the two?

Of course no one is required to single class. Let's take the common example of fighter/rogue/weapon master. Does taking a few rogue levels make that PC a rogue, or is he/she a fighter who knows how to maneuver in combat (tumble) and hit where it hurts most when not watched (sneak attack)? In other words, can you take levels in another class to augment your primary class without it coming across as belonging to multiple professions? I think most of us will say yes to that.

I also like the idea of creating your own unique profession/PC concept by mixing classes together to pull strengths from each. Maybe you want to mix bard and fighter levels with your elven PC to create a bladesinger. If you do this the bard levels don't mean you are practicing the bard profession. You're just using classes as a collection of talents and skills that you mix and match to create the combination you want. It seems like some classes can be used this way but not all. No one can take paladin levels to represent anything other than being a paladin and upholding all that requires. ^**

That's all for now. Comments are encouraged. Please no flaming or criticizing someone else's RP or class choices for their PC. Let's keep this constructive.


* Unfortunately I think this makes playing an assassin difficult to do RP wise. It's hard to hire yourself out without other people hearing about it and becoming wary of you. Also, many players would rather do their own killing rather than hire someone, thus limiting how much you can practice your profession. But maybe I'm wrong about that.

** I'm not looking to reopen a debate about paladin multi-classing. I support the DM rulings on the paladin class.

[EDM Neo]

I generally think of most classes as merely skill sets, to be reflavored as necessary to fit the PC taking them.

To give an example... Eleanor is an ex Hin Fist monk/cleric of Yondalla, who recently has been beginning to take rogue levels. That is not because she's really rogue-ish in any traditional sense of the word! She's a LG super devout priestess, after all.

She spent some time in the company of a Hin Fist monk who took more than a single level of the class, and found herself somewhat envious of their martial prowess. So, she decided to try and pick up her own martial training again. She couldn't return to taking monk levels herself, having left her order to take cleric levels, but rogue made a good substitute.

Her fighting style in general is more about quick moves than strength; she took more skill points in tumble, representing improved acrobatic ability. The rogue level also improved her reflex saves, further representing the same. Her sneak attack I play as precisely striking at the pressure points/ki meridians/whatever of a distracted creature, thus inflicting increased damage. When something's full attention is on her, she doesn't have time to pick out the right spots. As she still only has +1d6 sneak attack, she's still generally not very good at it, but it was a noticeable improvement.

Makes sense?

Exceptions to this include most divine casters (I wouldn't say quite all), RDD, etc.

[ancientempathy]

A class is a series of individual skills a character has that they can put to good practical use.

One class will compliment another, but that doesn't mean personalities always will.

It's good karma to find someone of a skill set to compliment your own that you find agreeable. By compliment, I mean working together well-with. A fighter benefits with a wizard along, etc...

To me, every class is unique this way. Dual-classing and tripple-classing only makes the person more dynamic, but a single person can't do it all unless they are MacGyver.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts. If I seem vague, it was for good reason. Despite the fighter/wizard pairing example - I try not to look at this type of situation too mechanically. Because a fighter could be a teacher, and that's an important profession, and the best part is that the fighter might have wisdom, intelligence, and charisma higher than their strength, dexterity, and constitution.

Extended Points.....

I disagree on the points under the State of Being part with you, JC

As we both know, you're required to have a certain amount of lore ranks in order to meet prerequisites for this PRC. In PnP, you're also even supposed to know Draconic. Upon learning Draconic, you could read scripture in the language to add to your lore - scripture about dragons, their habits, and types. Disciples explore, and exploration can be much like what Enterprise does - seeking out new lifeforms and cultures - or in the case of a Disciple, just knowledge of themselves and dragons. Incidentally, disciples prefer areas that are known to harbor dragons.

Knowing that ones state of being could change during the process might even shut-out some arcanists from the continued pursuit (the concept of scales could be gross afterall), but if not and should they continue, then it's entirely probable to claim that this pursuit of a new state of being is a personal profession, in and of itself. Arguably, its no different than seeking an enlightened state of being, which is a life profession of many. If a profession is an occupation requiring extensive education, then I'd say a Disciple fits the bill. Such characters could arguably be mini scholars of their particular dragon type, or more, depending on how much lore is continued in investment. And effectively - during ones pursuit of an enlightened state requires educating yourself on how to best go about this. Some even pass the knowledge on.

Same applies for Palemaster!

This perhaps thinks too much into your assesments, I'll admit, but hopefully it added constructive flavor.

Edit:

As to divine classes - its a profession. It can be a calling, and you can choose to heed the calling, or you can make your way. And if you answer the call, you're pursuing a path, a profession, to educate yourself on how to best go about meeting the criteria and standards your deity is going to be expecting. That's the greater picture for me.

[EDM Entori]

I agree with Kung-fu there, mostly, (especially the RDD, but I say no more at risk of hi-jacking)

the profession classes, can be professions or not.

I see a wizard, as a wizard, even if he has levels elsewhere.

I know a player that has one level wizard on their main and went to me one day and said "I'm a wizard too".. I personally laughed out loud. Because the character did not rp their wizardness, or that side of their character too much.

I know Entori has a Weird class set, mainly wizard, and some cleric and a ranger level.

So my idea on that, is that his base class, of wizard was his base class, that is what he is. He is a labelan, and through personal interactions he felt the call to labelas, and to finding that part of him, but not overly so, thusly only 2 levels.

Finally the Ranger, was based off his labelan-ness. (funnily enough)

he had his wife teach him to be more sneaky, as labelas fosters their clergy to have sneaky gear/skills. So the Ranger, was a good outlet to get those, and have his wife rub off on him, he is no way a tracker or scout, but a sneaky wizard, devote. for the record there I had enough sneak to get by without the ranger level, thusly why it came so late.

Classes are skill sets, but I think one often has to judge, how their character, gets those skills, and if it is worth the class or a few cross class skill points, or a few cross class skill points this level and next level enough to advance in those sets of skills.

I do not think Barbarian is a profession to acheive in, nor does one level wizard make you a wizard, merely the intial traits are given to you.

Fighter is a few levels that anyone could add to enhance their melee, etc.

PRC's I see more as paths a character chooses to go down, they are not a race, or state of being. the two prc's nwn offers that changes states of being do so by active actions on behalf of the original caster.

I see AA, or Champion of Torm, or any a profession a character has to aim for, thusly prerequisites.

anyways the above is just a rehash of what was already said I think, and I give it my stamp of approval..

the only weird part is where divinities come in, Such as A fighter of helm becoming taking too many Ranger levels. and gaining spells.
even then I personally do not feel it is a problem as long as the character does not use or make use of such spells. As for Scrolls, and wands, I'm fuzzy on how that would work, I feel that a scroll is a scroll, and that rangers/druids/clerics all share divine magic, while bards sorcerers, wizards, all share arcane, so I feel that if you can read a ranger scroll you should read a cleric scroll.

While many will argue the source of such magics the original go at Magic of Faerun says theres only two sources of power. The Weave, and "the power".. which is the gods, so really its either one or the other, (IMO)

[iangallowglas]

I think of classes as sets of skills, professions, and "States of Being" (nice wording JC), depending upon the class and the character outlook on life. So I pretty much agree with JC's post.

For example, Ian has fighter (14) and rogue levels (4). He was born the son of a thief and his rogue levels (and associated skills) were taken to represent his time as a young thief learning the trade. However, Ian was changed forever when his father was hung and told him on the gallows that the best way to steal was not to steal from humans because you'll end up like him, but to go out and kill monsters and steal their stuff, because the people will call you a hero instead of a thief. So Ian learned how to fight like a warrior so he could steal from monsters. Ian is a very conflicted fellow and deep down still considers himself a thief (his profession), but his outward appearance is that of a fighter (his major skill set). Ian worships Tempus and I wanted him to take Champion of Torm levels, but I consider the PRC Champion of Torm to be "State of Being" class. I just didn't think that a guy that deep down considers himself to be a thief could ever get to the proper state of being to be accepted by Tempus as one of his champions. So, Ian has no COT levels.

So, I guess in parting I think of all the base classes with the exception of Druid and Cleric as both Professions and as skill sets.
Druid and Cleric to me are professions but are more importantly a "state of being" and not a set of skills. If you have Cleric or Druid levels, then your a cleric or a druid. PRCs are focused skill sets based off a characters preferred profession, with the exception of RDD, Pale Master, and CoT which are "States of Being".

[828stingstingneo]

The way I think of a class depends on the class. I think clerics are professionals kind of like a RL Minister/Priest/Rabbi. Even if they make a living on the side doing other things, they are always in part bound by their church and their clerical duties. Paladins in a strict order might similarly be professionals, but one not of an order might just be a LG fighter with special blessings from his god and an individual calling. A druid could also be part of a circle and may have ritualistic duties that make him more of a nature priest. It is my understanding that in the FR world not all mortals know for sure who their patron really is, so I could also see loner druids and rangers who develop their divinely granted abilities through their closeness to nature without knowing which patron is looking out for them.

I would argue that being a sorcerer is a state of being also since a sorcerer's abilities are inborn rather than studied like a wizard's. I'm not sure if the research required to become an RDD or pale master means it doesn't change your being in some way. Perhaps it wouldn't be if you had to continue certain learned rituals to maintain your status. However, what would happen if someone studied to become an RDD, got his wings, bumped his head, and could no longer remember the lore he'd learned? Would the wings fall off? I don't know enough about the class to say for certain, but I doubt they would.

I personally view bard as a profession mainly because I can't picture a bard without performing in some capacity, even if he is only using his art to inspire the troops.

Barbarians seem like they should be a culture or a life-style almost. His gift comes from his wildness, but he hasn't the education to be able to read or use the sophisticated equipment fighters use. I have a hard time picturing someone acquiring barbarian traits later in life and multi-classing into barbarian, but I personally haven't really looked into using the classes available to build classes unavailable, so perhaps acquiring barbarian later might help if you need the skill set.

Fighters and rogues can indeed fill a wide variety of roles. Both classes are very flexible with their roleplay. I see them as more of a skill set than having a defined role. Actually, I feel the same about wizards. Wizards are just ordinary people who have taken the time to study the weave so they can use it. The weave is powerful enough that someone with wizard as a main class would probably use his magic somehow in his profession, but other characters could just as easily use arcane casting as a skill they picked up because they felt it was useful. I wouldn't personally scoff at anyone who wished to RP he was a wizard after only multi-classing into one level of it, though. Perhaps he adopted the study of the arcane late in life, but he's no less a wizard than a lowly level 1 player who happened to take wizard as his first class. Of course, a powerful wizard who has dedicated his life to acquiring arcane power might rightly scoff at both ICly and view them as mere lowly apprentices still too wet behind the ears to be deemed real wizards yet.

I think that covers all the main classes, and I don't want to get into all of the prestige classes because I'll probably forget some of them. In any case, you probably get the general idea of how I think of the classes. In general I would say I prefer to see them as flexibly as possible unless the nature of the class dictates otherwise.

[ancientempathy]

Here are some assessments I've been making so far:

The class we might be, is a state of being. Some classes can change their physical and mental states.

But leading the life of the class is a profession in and of itself. You develope tradeskills to work with so that others can benefit in some way, and some of which involves teaching.

I had to think long and hard about Divine Champion. Yes, it is a state of being, but it can be a profession too. You're living up to your gods ideals, afterall, and being the epitome of their values in some way. Incidentally, you're a walking icon of the faith, and whether or not you actively preach it, you do live a life that's fit in a professional manner of the faith's doctrine. Whether this is an active, concious approach or subconcious matters less, as it's the outcome that's more important.

Ha, so I guess life is a profession with the state of being we are in, an ever-changing process, due to our tradeskills and talents we develope that can be shared with others.

CONFUCIUS SAY

[Not so surly dwarf]

Good thoughts so far, just figured I'd add some of my own...

So let's say you're a Lawful Good character. You're a fighter who has trained and excelled enough to become a CoT or WM or DD. Somewhere along your journey you battle an extremely powerful creature that makes your martial prowess insignificant. So rather than give in...you start to wonder what made that creature so powerful, how did it defeat you? Most of the time the answer is...magic. So maybe your fighter starts to dabble in reading arcane runes and scrolls, maybe he picks up a wand and actually understands it...in other words: You mechanically take rogue levels for UMD. Now, while this may be considered poor rp or 'you're doing it wrong' by some, I hopefully have given folks a way to justify taking rogue classes without having to radically change your LG character. Now as to SA and other rogue specialties?Well, you can still rp fighting the same way if not making SA's is important to you, or else you can justify it as knowing when and how to strike your opponents from the flank. Now, if ya always hide in shadows and strike from there and your lore or what have you is against that, could be a problem. Otherwise I'd love to see critiques, other justifications, or scathing hatred for these words:)

[EDM Entori]

I disagree that sorcerers are states of being, their magic may be driven by personality and heritage.

But Magic is still magic, the spells are equally described for sorcerers as they are for wizards, thusly somatic, verbal, and components are required for some spells.

For a sorcerer to say, oh I just figured that spell out by doing nothing, ...

in FR novels, and even in some FR lore Shamokes character gave me earlier this month. Sorcerers, do not go through the perparation wizards do, wizards have to study 18 pages of ritual and such for a level 9 spell, they have to memorize a trigger sequence that activates the spell..


A sorcerer just needs to rattle off the trigger sequence, so thus he picks these up and the preparation before that is not required.

So given that Sorcerers put ranks into Lore, and spellcraft, I still say they must have some study to gain the understanding and insight that they do, or at least the experience of being of watching other casters and sort of learning as you go.

alot like natural basketball players they just have a feel for it.

but that experience is like a 50 year old airplane captain, he knows how it should feel.

so yes its a state of being in some regard, but to continue down the path and open the secrets of your blood line, given the skill sets of a sorcerer, i would imagine a character to peruse that.

[Lokarn]

Entori, no caster "has" to add any points into lore, or spell craft to cast the spell, the only prerequisite is being the correct level, and class.

Aside from epic spells, obviously.

Classes are the foundation on which you select certain building blocks to further flesh out your character's person. What I mean is, each class has skills, and abilities that they come with, or grant access to.

Classes are a part of your character's background. Generally we seek to have our character's class represent in some way their background. Rarely a class is restricted through alignment, to me, this means that the class is more than just what your character is learning to do, but it represents what your character is learning to "be" or "is"

So I'd place all base, non restricted classes as learn able skill sets.
While all alignment restricted classes are states of being.
Further, any classes restricted by feats, skills, and others are skill set specializations.

Non restricted classes never infer any alignment that the PC may be for me. A ranger is just as likely to be evil as good, same as a rogue. For me it is how each skill in your skill set is played out.

Sneak attacking is not all ways a back stab, that was removed a while ago, your bonus comes from knowing where to strike while flanking. And wanting to kill something is not evil in and of it's self, or Paladins would be pacifists.

A rogue may choose to spend time learning any of his available skills, but he doesn't have to. He may choose to represent his sneak attack as a well placed flanking strike, or as a from the darkness attempt to cripple and maim with ill intentions.

What I don't agree with though is when people take a class and use it to try to represent a different class that is selectable.

A sneak attack is a sneak attack, it is not a greater understanding of inner chi any more than a dominate person spell is a really convincing argument. Within the game, abilities are what they are because they are that ability.

A death attack is not a hold person spell placed on an arrow, it is a shot that causes so much pain that the victim is unable to move for the duration.

[simondelsolis]

Historically speaking, often many professions were chosen for someone. Either by accident or by parents. Almost every class represented in the DnD class options are Professions...some are a bit more.

Paladins are both a state of being and profession. Professiong as training to be a warrior; and State of Being because the holiness of a Paladin is a specific calling from the God. - FRC Policies on Paladins reinforce this logic as well.....PC's that start as some other class cannot change to Paladin unless he worships the correct God. He will NOT be accepted into the ranks to be trained as Paladin unless that particular Knightly order accepts those of that ilk within their ranks. *resists temptation to say more*

Clerics can be a profession and a state of being....In PnP a Cleric is not required to declare a god he worships until something like 5th level. The higher level spells are granted by communing with a god. Therefore until level 5 he's been trained and can cast the lower levels spells but doesn't have that holy connection with his god until higher levels.

Wizards is a Profession..as in Trained---in the Original book the starting age for a wizard was 10-15 years older than Fighters, representing the time required to learn basic casting skills.

Sorcerers...either you are a sorceror as in have it your blood or you don't.

The same for RDD - either you're decended from a dragon or you're not.

Bard- is a profession..-trained--all the Lore I've read about bards indicates one trained in story telling and such.

Barbarian....is a cultural or perhaps a racial factor...either born a barbarian or not..However, I've read multiple stories of people from civilized world "going red" from rage...so it's possible for one to take barbarian levels later, thus a possible racial factor.

Rogues----Profession....Training is usually self taught school of hard knocks, and by learning special tricks from others. Rogue class covers any number of profession's as mentioned earlier.

Fighters--Profession--Specifically training in the Use of Heavy armors and all manner of weapons. again this can be self taught and could result from training under tuteledge.

Champion of Torm- This could be both a state of being and profession, but I'm inclined to go with state of being. Primarily because of the special abilities and saves.

Assassin, - Profession - Special training required.

Ranger - Profession - Trained or learned skills - Historical evidence of Rangers, Scouts for Armies, etc.

Druid - Profession - trained...Origininal notation of Druids they pulled their power directly from nature...Historical/ legends suggest druids were men with special skills-Also implications of apprentiship.

Harper Scout - Profession- training required

Black Guard like Paladin is combination Profession and state of being...Profession for training in war, state of being for the depth of the evilness required to have the abilities of the BG.

The Dwarven Defender - Profession- training. of skills and feats.

Palemaster......This is a Profession- to start but progessess beyond as the body changes then he/she's a state of being. as in this combination of skills and learning toward the point where the character is so intune with the Dead to almost be Undead himself. Bone Arm, Immunity to Crits, and other such perks.

[EDM Entori]

I probably should say "can" instead of "do"..

Because the class can take spellcraft, (the art of learning and building spells), I assume it is a skill that comes natural to that class, and while they do not all have to.

I feel that one would eventually do so, as a class skill to not ever take a class skill, to me is funny. and I think 3.5 forces you to take some class skills each level, (not certain).


but to my point I do not feel sorcerers shoot out specific trigger sequences to specific spells, at a whim of "natural knowledge"

I feel they have to experience that, sorcerers are also limited, they cannot cast all spells, like a wizard can, I feel this means they lack the ability to, so they are limited to what they experience. thats a personal opinion while sorcerers can deselect spells on level up, that to me represents them experiencing a new spell and taking it in use of one over another, I do not feel this should be a concious act, but one as if one took up a new instrument, like the clairinet to the sax, after so long the skill of playing the sax would degrade.

[Shamoke]

Oct 16, 2010 4:17:19 GMT -5 EDM Entori said:

I probably should say "can" instead of "do"..

Because the class can take spellcraft, (the art of learning and building spells), I assume it is a skill that comes natural to that class, and while they do not all have to.

I feel that one would eventually do so, as a class skill to not ever take a class skill, to me is funny. and I think 3.5 forces you to take some class skills each level, (not certain).


but to my point I do not feel sorcerers shoot out specific trigger sequences to specific spells, at a whim of "natural knowledge"

I feel they have to experience that, sorcerers are also limited, they cannot cast all spells, like a wizard can, I feel this means they lack the ability to, so they are limited to what they experience. thats a personal opinion while sorcerers can deselect spells on level up, that to me represents them experiencing a new spell and taking it in use of one over another, I do not feel this should be a concious act, but one as if one took up a new instrument, like the clairinet to the sax, after so long the skill of playing the sax would degrade.

I do not wish to hijack this thread, so my thoughts on Wizards and Sorcerers and be found here:

frc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=roleplaydiscussion&action=display&thread=14057

[themarquis]

Classes are a history of the character for me.

I tend to view classes as indicators of gained experience depending on the source of the experience. The source may be anything from the location where the person gained that experience (living out in the woods? Ranger experience), some sort of blood lineage (magical/draconic blood? Bard/Sorcerer experience), or more broadly how that person gained the experience (martial training? Fighter).