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Post by shanisena on Oct 1, 2010 17:06:18 GMT -5
I've been trolling around the forums for a little bit , and something came to my attention. Something about a Paladin of the Red Knight.
I can't be sure if that's possible , since Paladins are supposed to be the most devout servants and warriors of Goodly deities , like Torm , Hoar and Lathander , who's doghmas suit the virtuous way of life a Paladin must lead.
In my understanding , a Paladin is not only a holy warrior and devout , but he should be a Champion of Good , more than anything. Opposing evil without breaking laws or his vows and codes. Also , a Paladin that does an act of evil , or ruthlessness , for example , if one such slays a goblin child , he would fall from the path of righteousness and lose the favour of his god , losing all his blessings , powers and so forth (and no , that doesn't mean that he becomes a Blackguard , Paladins who fall from grace strive hard to regain the favor of their deity) So , wouldn't it be impossible for there to be a Paladin , who believes in the most efficient and tactically sound way to battle evil , because sometimes , tactics would conflict with a Paladin's code?
This is just my opinion , I'm not saying anyone's wrong for making something like that , but personally I think there are only a few deities who really fit the real "Paladin" way of life , Torm and Hoar being the most prominent of all these , as well as Lathander , Sune and a few others.
So...any thoughts?
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Post by Syd's Blue Sky on Oct 1, 2010 17:40:03 GMT -5
Are you saying that list at the end fits especially well or not as well?
Sune is chaotic...
Paladins are hard to RP. If a player doesn't feel like that are up to the challenge to sort through these difficulties and turn them into a viable character then they aren't cut out to play a paladin.
As with all things it comes down to how you balance it. I'm sure you're gonna get a bunch of examples to follow, but I don't play paladins... so I'm not going to give any.
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Post by simondelsolis on Oct 1, 2010 17:51:35 GMT -5
I am NOT by any stretch of the imagination knowledgeable of the Red Knight Dogma, but I'll attempt to put some perspective on this.
Victory in battle thru superior tactics need not involve the slaying of innocents. Of course, victory CAN be achieved this way, but it is NOT an Honorable method of war and one most likely sought by those with a dark heart.
Superor tactics comes in many different forms. Usually the best tactics depend upon the battle field commanders knowledge of the enemy, terain and the capability of his team.
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Post by EDM Neo on Oct 1, 2010 18:01:15 GMT -5
Hoar is a Lawful Neutral (not goodly) god who believes in vengeance above all else. Just getting that out there.
He's just as LN as the Red Knight is, not goodly as you seem to imply. Paladins of some LN gods aren't entirely unusual.
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Post by shanisena on Oct 1, 2010 18:54:03 GMT -5
I suppose I should've checked up a little more , but personally I find Tyrran , Hoaran and Tormite the easiest of one of the hardest classes to play. Though , I think the base line for a paladin is their deity being Lawful or Good , and have most of the virtues of a paladin in their portfolio.
And as for LN deity paladins , the paladin , I suppose follows the chivalrous code , and seeks to do good , but for example , a Hoaran Paladin would want vengeance for all the injustice Evil brings.
As for Sunite paladins , I'm not too familiar with those , but I believe it's possible , Chaotic deity or no.
And I suppose if that's possible , most deities could have paladins as well. Just as long as it makes sense.
P.S. Don't troll the newb plix.
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Post by kaltorac on Oct 1, 2010 19:31:03 GMT -5
And I suppose if that's possible , most deities could have paladins as well. Just as long as it makes sense. P.S. Don't troll the newb plix. Just one more reason to boycott 4E.  In 4th edition all gods have paladins but they function more as holy men. What? Who likes to double post? |
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Post by EDM Entori on Oct 1, 2010 22:57:05 GMT -5
Ah but alas does the god match the player always? no, go one step rule.
Hoar may be the god of revenge, but a follower may feel that holy justice, is revenge. And while justice, is the thought of tormites and tyrans everywhere.
Lawful does not mean "law abiding".
Lawful means following the sets and tenants of the faithful, thus a blackgaurd of bane, can follow banes dogma and piss all over the rulebook of cormyr.
So Red knight or hoar, the lawful part comes from following creeds given.
So. Revenge then is the issue, well if you follow such faithfully and teants and dictates, to which revenge is honorable.
why not? sure theres a loop hole, but it can be creatively filled, with basicly, I see Hoar paladins having some sort of poem, or dogma ICly, that allows them to take an eye for an eye, that follows their revenge. But it must be a goodly act.
a Good paladin may not beleive that revenge for everything, but revenge to save others, to give out holy retribution to those that work against the forces of good, so that they may never finish their dark plots to maim women and children.
DND is very very combat oriented, and I do not see all paladins as Civilarious, I do think a paladin of hoar may fight dirty, given the teants of his faith and following a strict code.
or I may be talking out my bum.
But thats my thought process on it all.
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Post by minion on Oct 2, 2010 2:10:28 GMT -5
*removed by polite request (thank you for that, Kottle) and due to current irrelevancy to any part of this thread (and for that  ). |
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Post by ancientempathy on Oct 2, 2010 10:26:38 GMT -5
I've been trolling around the forums for a little bit , and something came to my attention. Something about a Paladin of the Red Knight. I can't be sure if that's possible , since Paladins are supposed to be the most devout servants and warriors of Goodly deities , like Torm , Hoar and Lathander , who's doghmas suit the virtuous way of life a Paladin must lead. In my understanding , a Paladin is not only a holy warrior and devout , but he should be a Champion of Good , more than anything. Opposing evil without breaking laws or his vows and codes. Also , a Paladin that does an act of evil , or ruthlessness , for example , if one such slays a goblin child , he would fall from the path of righteousness and lose the favour of his god , losing all his blessings , powers and so forth (and no , that doesn't mean that he becomes a Blackguard , Paladins who fall from grace strive hard to regain the favor of their deity) So , wouldn't it be impossible for there to be a Paladin , who believes in the most efficient and tactically sound way to battle evil , because sometimes , tactics would conflict with a Paladin's code? This is just my opinion , I'm not saying anyone's wrong for making something like that , but personally I think there are only a few deities who really fit the real "Paladin" way of life , Torm and Hoar being the most prominent of all these , as well as Lathander , Sune and a few others. So...any thoughts? You seem to be a new community member here, so welcome first and foremost! I've a Red Knight paladin in circulation. Hopefully you can meet him to see if he's believeable or not! I've also a cleric/champion of the Red Knight out there that's gone from Lawful Neutral to Lawful Good. As a general note about paladins in Forgotten Realms so we're all on the same page: Deities that are: Lawful Neutral, Neutral Good, & Lawful Good can have paladins. Sune is the only chaotic good exception. This is the way the DnD creators saw it fit, so it's honored here on FRC too. Here's a good thread to read up on if no one has already: frc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=lore&action=display&thread=1804&page=1The above link takes you to a list of all available paladin orders your paladin can belong-to if they wish to multiclass. Multiclassing paladins must belong to an order, and the order is limited to the available list there. If a deity is not listed, then a paladin cannot multiclass. Please note that Bahamut can have paladins, and whether or not his paladins can multiclass [as I can't remember], will not be reflected in that list. Another thing to point out about paladins, and most any faith: not all faithful will get along with each other. Paladins will nominally always prefer lawful and good companions, even if the companion is of the same faith. Obviously the paladin is going to look into working-with and getting-along-with others of the faith, as best they can, to perform services to their sire. As to the Red Knight, here's some information about an order of paladins she has: Always found it interesting that a Lawful Neutral leader was running the show to the Red Falcons. As it's been mentioned, Torm and Red Knight are allies. I wouldn't put it past me if Torm's attempting to convert her to good. I wont bother looking into 4.0 DnD material because we simply aren't that. The Red Knight's probably on my list of top 3 listed deities in forgotten realms. She's always perplexed me as much as she's impressed me. Her followers could have down and dirty tactics to practice while others can have strictly honorable ones. The Red Knight doesn't really limit her followers on what tactics they can have. But, the Red Knight wont hold it agaisnt her followers if they are choosing a set-style of tactics. There's something known as seeking the mastery and perfection of a certain strategy that might be appealing to her, you could ponder on, as food for thought. Here's her dogma as of 3.5: I always found it a pretty straightforward dogma. Be prepared, be smart, strategize, study your opponent and yourself to work out the best approach on dealings, and so on and so forth. How the follower goes about doing all this is up to them, as long as its a lawful and carefully-planned-process. Personally, my red knightists that are Lawful Good tend to focus on the aspect of there needing to be peace after war in order for war to continue, which is much the line of thought as Tempurans. Tempus is a deity that I like to call, organized chaos. But what this means about my followers of the Red Knight is, they seek to settle conflict through negotiation and peaceful means, first, before outright whipping out their master plans to spank the other into submission. Honorably, of course! Its not particularly strange to me that a chaotic war god sponsored a lawful deity. Its chaos, it can do what it pleases. Its not strange to me any that a lawful god wants to remain a subbordinate under a chaotic deity. Its law, it strives to organize chaos. That being said, one could compare Tempus and the Red Knight as the Sword's and Shield's of war. Garagos is the random exploding gnome of destruction that happens by periodically. Tempuran: "Thats a fortress we need to sack! They stole chickens from farmers!" Red Knightist: "Ok, but before we do that we need to make a plan." Garagorian: "Violence? LEEEEROY JENKINS" Thats an exaggeration of my interpretation but a fun one ;D Hope that helps broaden perspectives or make for a good read. I find Milil having paladins that protect bards to be more strange of all the paladins. But so long as said bard is doing good service or non-evil work, then it's probably why its allowed. Milil is Neutral Good. |
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Post by EDM Entori on Oct 2, 2010 10:39:01 GMT -5
LLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
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Post by 828stingstingneo on Oct 2, 2010 10:41:34 GMT -5
Back to the original topic, I think it's unneccesary for there to be complete harmony between all worshippers in the various churches. I think it would make for very interesting RP for a Paladin of the Red Knight to come into conflict with a church member because he holds good or law in higher esteem than pure tactics, or for a Paladin of Hoar to come into conflict with a LN cleric who wants to exact vengence without mercy when it may not be the good thing to do in that case, or for a chaotically aligned Sunite to be irritated with a Paladin of Sune for being such a stickler for law.
Whether paladins of a deity exist is not up to the other worshippers of the god but up to the god himself. As loyal as an individual worshipper may be to his god, he may not understand or agree with why his deity chose to use paladins. He doesn't even have to like his deity's decision because it's the deity's choice to grant the paladins their spells, not the other followers.
It's hard to envision in a game where characters are divided up between the many deities of multiple pantheons; PCs tend to stick together with the few other PCs who follow the same gods they do. However, a lone paladin PC is often a member of a larger order that may not be in complete harmony with a priestly clergy that is also larger than the PCs we've created for the game. Internal religious disagreement is possible and even open conflict is extremely common in some churches. So, if source says a deity supports paladins, I find it completely believable by thinking of it this way in cases where there may be differences of alignment or purpose. It's certainly no stranger than the fact that there can be both NG and NE clerics of TN deities, for example.
EDIT: ninjaed by Ancient Kungfu--He also touched on what I was trying to say:
"not all faithful will get along with each other"
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Post by Teneas on Oct 2, 2010 11:57:57 GMT -5
//removed
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2010 12:57:05 GMT -5
Hoar is definitely one of the most challenging deities to base a paladin off of. To explore how revenge can be seen as lawful, I would be tempted to use some of the ancient greek ideas of arete (honor/excellence/fullfillment), hubris (overwhelming arrogance and haughtiness) and nemesis (retribution against those who succumb to hubris). These themes are some of the main ones behind the Illiad and Odyssey.
edit: updated as I remembered the right greek terms.
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Post by Munroe on Oct 2, 2010 22:12:58 GMT -5
I don't see an Idea or Suggestion here. If there is one, I can move this thread back, but I'm moving it to RP discussion.
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Oct 2, 2010 22:49:09 GMT -5
I've been playing a Paladin of Helm for a while now. It works, really!
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Post by marredwolf on Oct 3, 2010 19:07:05 GMT -5
And I suppose if that's possible , most deities could have paladins as well. Just as long as it makes sense. P.S. Don't troll the newb plix. In 4th edition all gods have paladins but they function more as holy men. does that mean there are paladins of every alignment? like good has paladins, evil has blackguards but are there neutral paladins as well? |
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Post by simondelsolis on Oct 3, 2010 19:15:39 GMT -5
In 4th edition all gods have paladins but they function more as holy men. does that mean there are paladins of every alignment? like good has paladins, evil has blackguards but are there neutral paladins as well? yet one more reason to not waste any money on 4th edition. |
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Post by Syd's Blue Sky on Oct 4, 2010 5:45:10 GMT -5
There have always been paladins variants of other alignments if you look hard enough.
The divine book.. something Divine... I forget the name.. Complete Divine? Anyway, it has them... and they're fun.
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Oct 4, 2010 7:59:15 GMT -5
I think the book you're looking for is Unearthed Arcana, which has Paladin of Freedom, Paladin of Tyranny, and Paladin of Slaughter.
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Post by Munroe on Oct 4, 2010 13:47:50 GMT -5
I think the book you're looking for is Unearthed Arcana, which has Paladin of Freedom, Paladin of Tyranny, and Paladin of Slaughter. Unearthed Arcana (3.x edition, which does mention those three paladin variants) is a book of published house-rules. Not only are they not canon for Forgotten Realms, but they're not even official in 3.x source either. Unearthed Arcana 3.x also includes rules for gestalt characters, making bard, ranger, and paladin into PRCs, as well as facing rules, among other things. (I do like the idea of paladin as a PRC though.) |
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Post by simondelsolis on Oct 4, 2010 16:44:46 GMT -5
There have always been paladins variants of other alignments if you look hard enough. The divine book.. something Divine... I forget the name.. Complete Divine? Anyway, it has them... and they're fun. The concepts are fun ideas, but choose the diety to worship carefully. My attempts to develop 2 of those classes has been well and soundly defeated by the staff because the characters in question do not worship the correct Diety. |
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