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Post by EDM Neo on Sept 29, 2010 14:00:02 GMT -5
In my opinion, using the domination spell could never be considered a "good" act. Forcing someone or something to do something against their nature, to me, can never be a good thing, even if the person is rotten to the core and plan on killing everything in site. At best it's neutral, and IMO should cause a good aligned character that routinely uses the dominate spell (on people or monsters) to have an alignment shift towards neutral. Neutral and evil characters could use the spell at will with little in the way of consequences, although use of a dominate spell to murder people would be an evil act, and should shift the characters alignment to evil. In my opinion, using the domination spell could never be considered a "good" act. Actually not certain I agree with that, since dominating another person to me I see as more lawful vs chaotic not good vs evil. I could see a CG person using dominate as a means to an end. Then again for me it would be question of intent and what "actions" were ordered of the subject to determine the alignment of using the spell. But this if for a different topic. Actually not certain I agree with that, since dominating another person to me I see as more lawful vs chaotic not good vs evil. I could see a CG person using dominate as a means to an end. Then again for me it would be question of intent and what "actions" were ordered of the subject to determine the alignment of using the spell. But this if for a different topic. I agree with Grozer here, but DM Hackmaster once pointed out a Dominated person is considered a hostage, and in DND, when a person is "helpless" then harming a helpless person is an evil act I believe. or at least killing them is, now I've had a hard time wrapping my head around this aspect as it applies to all sorts of NWN spells, hold person, hold monster, bigbes, sleep, (list goes on). but a dominated person is at your mercy, to then turn them to their deaths is evil. Now to me this seems secondary to the other conditions that are good and evil. to preemptive strike against a group of orcs who are about to attack your village is not evil. if a Demon is laying waste to your allies, and then you dominate monster it, and turn it against your foes, well.. the scales to me still tip good, as it is a demon(hardly innocent) and you are saving lives. like anything else though it is a balancing act to weather or not you'll hold good, take a few evil points, but you definitly won't get good points for it, so probably what I would call a "fence sitter act". Just starting a new thread for this so that the initial one doesn't get totally sidetracked. It's a good conversation and should be continued, just that I don't want the other to be buried, either.  I'll add my own thoughts later. |
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Post by Grozer on Sept 29, 2010 14:36:41 GMT -5
Well since you started the discussion... I see domination or controlling another being's mind without their consent of course as an unlawful act and I specifically didnt say chaotic here for a reason. In my opinion depending on circumstances I could see it being a moderately unlawful act, i.e. neutral or a significantly unlawful, i.e. chaotic. To me how that control is then used is either good or evil. An interesting situation for me is when someone chooses "to kill" a dominated subject after they have served their purpose which basically translates into murdering a non-hostile subject (which most casters do after they are done with the monster  ), which is an evil act. |
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Sept 29, 2010 14:38:40 GMT -5
I don't believe that any spell without the 'evil' descriptor is meant to be considered evil. Sure, the idea of domination magic might make some peoples' skin crawl, but that doesn't make it inherently bad, or inherently good, or inherently anything except mind magic. I don't see why a Paladin would deny a wizard a chance to change the tide of battle if, say, he could dominate a boulder-throwing ogre and have him crush the orcs rushing a town.
My own Paladin, being a Helmite, focuses mainly on defense of his companions. It stands to reason, then, that he would want to prevent his companions from receiving harm. What better way to do that than to command an evil creature to turn on its also-evil companions? Evil is self-destructive anyhow, after all. If it came to interrogation, my Paladin would prefer to use domination magic to force answers out of a captured foe, rather than the alternatives of torture and fear.
I think the bottom line on the 'ethics' issue is that 1) it's not listed as an evil spell, 2) there's nothing written that states the process is painful, unpleasant, etc., 3) any spell effect can be used for good or evil - that is determined by individual intent and usage. "Mind effecting" can have many, many underlying branches, and it is not an indicator of whether something is more 'good' or more 'evil,' it is only different. On the inverse, you have divination, which can be much, much more insidious, but is not inherently evil either.
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Sept 29, 2010 15:09:59 GMT -5
Any time we make the supposition that a spell's effects are -more- than written in source, we are entering the realm of opinion. There is NOTHING written in source that says Paladins are averse to mind affecting magic, and there is NOTHING in source that states that mind affecting magic is evil, bad, or in any way against a Paladin's oaths.
Certainly, a Paladin wouldn't oversee the domination of a creature and allow the dominator or others inflict physical harm on the helpless creature, but there is nothing stating that the Paladin would not allow it to be dominated in the first place - for whatever reason. Additional firepower, hard-to-get answers, retinal scanner on the necromancers' keep, whatever.
You imply that approval of domination magic is a 'slippery slope,' and I believe that there is no slope involved. It is a spell effect that can be used for good or evil. The morality or immorality of its use is in the hands of the individual, as it is not listed as good or evil in Source. It is a sword. It can be used to vanquish evil, or it can be used to bring terror to the world, just as any other weapon. It is nothing more, and nothing less, than a mind affecting spell.
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Post by fred on Sept 29, 2010 15:15:19 GMT -5
I think that many of us can think of an example of a wizard formerly active in FRC who was known to use domination for "good" ends, but whose use of it was clearly evil to everyone watching. The ends most certainly do not justify the means. But it wasn't the use of the magic itself that was evil, it was the commands the wizard chose to issue while the subject was dominated.
I don't think that means that the spell itself is good or evil. I see it as neutral.
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Post by EDM Entori on Sept 29, 2010 17:39:12 GMT -5
I think that many of us can think of an example of a wizard formerly active in FRC who was known to use domination for "good" ends, but whose use of it was clearly evil to everyone watching. The ends most certainly do not justify the means. But it wasn't the use of the magic itself that was evil, it was the commands the wizard chose to issue while the subject was dominated. I don't think that means that the spell itself is good or evil. I see it as neutral. thats true as well FRC lacks it but there are spells with the [good] descriptor and using such would change your alignment equally so. (or so I beleive) |
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Post by catmage on Sept 29, 2010 17:39:33 GMT -5
I'm currently lost in the shadow realms of the net, but when I beat the will DC to leave my computer, I'll grab the Book of Exalted Deeds and respond with it's take. If I recall properly, it permits domination, as long as the victim is treated with respect, not harmed, and not forced to commit acts of EVIL!.
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Post by fred on Sept 29, 2010 18:01:12 GMT -5
I think that many of us can think of an example of a wizard formerly active in FRC who was known to use domination for "good" ends, but whose use of it was clearly evil to everyone watching. The ends most certainly do not justify the means. But it wasn't the use of the magic itself that was evil, it was the commands the wizard chose to issue while the subject was dominated. I don't think that means that the spell itself is good or evil. I see it as neutral. thats true as well FRC lacks it but there are spells with the [good] descriptor and using such would change your alignment equally so. (or so I beleive) ... was this in response to something I said? You quoted my post. |
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Post by ancientempathy on Sept 29, 2010 18:16:05 GMT -5
I'm currently lost in the shadow realms of the net, but when I beat the will DC to leave my computer, I'll grab the Book of Exalted Deeds and respond with it's take. If I recall properly, it permits domination, as long as the victim is treated with respect, not harmed, and not forced to commit acts of EVIL!. If you're lost in the net realms, you might want to check the FRC forums, then. I wrote up a lot of Exalted Deeds information in the LotL boards our forums got that just might cover this aspects. I'm too busy writing up papers right now to thoroughly search through an intel-heavy thread. Easier to respond to a post than it is to research, right? *shift eyes* |
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Post by Micteu on Sept 29, 2010 19:23:00 GMT -5
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Post by soulfien on Sept 29, 2010 22:00:09 GMT -5
I have always believed that mind magic (i.e. mental control of someone's free will) to be an evil act.
Dominating intelligent beings and forcing them to slay their fellow companions is not something good people do. I know it's done often in this game and this is only my opinion so there is no need to take offense. I do not expect anyone to agree with me on this. I do not intend to tell anyone how to play their alignment.
Now that the required disclaimer is out of the way....
If you mentally dominate a frost giant and force it to fight on your side then you are committing an evil act in my opinion. You have removed its free will and instead of killing it in an honorable act, you are forcing it to kill its own fellows on your behalf. I do not believe that using domination on evil beings to murder other evil beings to be a "good" act.
A Zone of Truth, on the other hand, isn't really an evil act as it is preventive magic. It would be the same as a spell that prevents a creature from taking any hostile acts.
A Zone of Truth does not force someone to speak the truth. It merely prevents them from lying. There is a very big difference between the two.
Using mental spells to force the truth from someone is indeed evil as I see it.
No ifs ands or buts. (in my opinion)
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Post by soulfien on Sept 29, 2010 22:06:12 GMT -5
I believe the "Book of Exalted Deeds" specifically states that with good PC's, the ends never justify the means.
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Post by soulfien on Sept 29, 2010 22:10:36 GMT -5
Here's a thought for the paladin...
Imagine for a moment that Gerard was hit by a domination spell and then forced to walk into town and slay townspeople including women and children as this was the goal of the evil person.
Would this be simply shrugged off by the paladin as he was not in control of his own actions and thus not to blame for the slaughter? Would the paladin not be compelled to repent and repent heavily even to go so far as to submit to a cleric's Quest spell?
Or would the paladin, once free of domination, slay the offender and consider the job done, moving on to his next challenge?
Domination strips free will. To some evil creatures, being forced to slay your own kin under the effects of a domination spell is no less traumatic than if a good person were under its effects.
That's how I see it.
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Post by EDM Entori on Sept 29, 2010 22:26:41 GMT -5
I believe the "Book of Exalted Deeds" specifically states that with good PC's, the ends never justify the means. its how you do something yes, I suppose you are correct there. |
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Post by EDM Neo on Sept 29, 2010 22:39:52 GMT -5
I have always believed that mind magic (i.e. mental control of someone's free will) to be an evil act. Dominating intelligent beings and forcing them to slay their fellow companions is not something good people do. I know it's done often in this game and this is only my opinion so there is no need to take offense. I do not expect anyone to agree with me on this. I do not intend to tell anyone how to play their alignment. Now that the required disclaimer is out of the way.... If you mentally dominate a frost giant and force it to fight on your side then you are committing an evil act in my opinion. You have removed its free will and instead of killing it in an honorable act, you are forcing it to kill its own fellows on your behalf. I do not believe that using domination on evil beings to murder other evil beings to be a "good" act. A Zone of Truth, on the other hand, isn't really an evil act as it is preventive magic. It would be the same as a spell that prevents a creature from taking any hostile acts. A Zone of Truth does not force someone to speak the truth. It merely prevents them from lying. There is a very big difference between the two. Using mental spells to force the truth from someone is indeed evil as I see it. No ifs ands or buts. (in my opinion) I believe the "Book of Exalted Deeds" specifically states that with good PC's, the ends never justify the means. Book of Exalted Deeds has this to say, page 10: Also, it stats two high ranking good aligned outsiders who have dominate spells (the NG Bharrai, matriarch of the ursinals, and CG Morwel, ruler of the Eladrin). It's wrong under some circumstances, but by source, it's definitively not universally evil. Your characters are free to think otherwise, but by source material, they aren't correct, unless the DM team decides to rule the Book of Exalted Deeds as non-canon on this matter. Also... triple post, much, Soulfien? |
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Post by Micteu on Sept 29, 2010 22:56:26 GMT -5
Is putting someone in prison considered evil, too? It's robbing them of free will. They won't enjoy it. Sounds a lot like some of the domination mentioned earlier, but in those cases, some people said it wasn't lawful. I'd say a judge passing sentence according to his or her job is a very lawful act.
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Post by DM Hawk on Sept 29, 2010 23:34:39 GMT -5
Either Exalted Deeds or Champions of Valor (don't remember which) suggests domination as a good-aligned alternative to torture to gain information from an enemy.
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Post by Lokarn on Sept 30, 2010 1:57:10 GMT -5
so I was reading this and have come to my own conclusion, unless persuaded differently after I post this.
The spell it's self is neither good, or evil, it is simply a tool to be used however you may use it.
Should it be used by good, they must treat the dominated individual with respect, and courtesy, as they have now become a helpless prisoner. Treating them in less than those terms, is at best a nutral act.
Due to the above situation, and the new area cleaning scripts, PCs of good alignment, who intend to remain good, should never kill a dominated being, they should instead, have it wait somewhere and simply dismiss the spell once they are out of the range where it would attack.
Evil PCs would likely not care about this, and perhaps encourage the killing of a dominated being.
I am wishy washy on the aspect of good using a dominated thing to attack it's own allies, or friends. ( I assume if it was fighting you with the group, it was friends with them)
On one hand, how is it ever a good act to force another to kill his friends? Would that not cause his friends to feel completely horrified and violated?
On the other hand, most of the time these things will be evil monsters, and it might not be uncommon for them to fight and kill eachother.
I just question how a good minded person would percieve the act of his friend being forced to kill him, or a husband being forced to kill his wife. Any good being would feel horrible about this.
Those are my thoughts on this so far.
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Post by magius on Sept 30, 2010 5:56:06 GMT -5
To quote Mystra and Elminster talking Aabout magic in whole. from Elminster the makeing of a mage before he became a chosen.
Elminster ''Weildering little power can be pleasure, no one should have to much''
Mystra ''what is to much''
elminster ''for me lady anything, i hate magic, a mage slew my parents, on whim, it seems, or for an afternoons entertainment. he destroyed a village in less time then it would take to tell you what befell, no man should be able to do that''
mystra ''is magic then evil?''
elminster ''yes, or perhaps not but it twists men to indulge evil''
mystra '' Ah, is a sword evil ?''
elminster nay, lady but dangerous. not all folk should have them to hand''
mystra '' who is to stop tyrents- and magelords- then ?''
Elminster'' ye seek to trick me with clever words, lady''
Mystra '' nay, i seek to make you think before you offer your own clever words and quick sure judgements, i ask again is a sword evil ?''
Elminster ''nay, for a sword cannont think,''
mystra ''is a plow evil''
elminster ''nay, what mean ye ?''
Mystra '' if a blade is not evil, but may be used for evil, is not magic the same?''
a little later cause there is alot of things to write emotions and reactions
Mystra '' i let mages use spells freely so that all beings who use magic may escape tyranny but from that freedom come such as the magelords in this land''
given what Mystra is and stands for.. The magic is a TOOL Magic is not evil or good.. the person useing it decides what way to go from there.. but the magic is neutral
So no the domination spell is not evil.. the person useing it for evil is..
so atleast is my beliefs
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Post by maeglhachel on Sept 30, 2010 13:36:14 GMT -5
Is giving somebody LSD to make him tell the truth evil?
I was always thinking magic is a tool just like ANYTHING is a tool ... the thing with the [Evil] spells being that they specifically require genuinely evil energies ... pure evil, if you will?!?
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Post by soulfien on Sept 30, 2010 14:48:54 GMT -5
Is putting someone in prison considered evil, too? It's robbing them of free will. They won't enjoy it. Sounds a lot like some of the domination mentioned earlier, but in those cases, some people said it wasn't lawful. I'd say a judge passing sentence according to his or her job is a very lawful act. Nah, not as I see it, Micteu. Placing someone in a cell for breaking a law does nothing to rob them of free will. They still have their mind. That's how I perceive it as I said. This is only my opinion. Domination robs them of even the ability to choose or think for themselves. That's why I don't like it. Is giving somebody LSD to make him tell the truth evil? I was always thinking magic is a tool just like ANYTHING is a tool ... the thing with the [Evil] spells being that they specifically require genuinely evil energies ... pure evil, if you will?!? Umm yes.... Drugging someone with drugs as heavy as LSD is indeed evil.  |
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Post by probablyamage on Sept 30, 2010 20:20:22 GMT -5
If I'm not mistaken (and I may well be) Zones of Truth, and mind magics are routinely used in courts of law in the more magically adept countries. Where pursuit of the truth is the main issue, so long as no one is specifically harmed, it only makes sense to simplify matters and reduce the chance of error with magic. My wizard was absolutely appalled watching a Cormyran trial where truth magic was not employed. He considers that nearly as foolish as the country not taking steps to see that executed criminals aren't immediately raised.
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Post by soulfien on Sept 30, 2010 21:20:17 GMT -5
Zone of Truth is not domination or what I call "mind magics".
All Zone of Truth does is prevent you from lying. It in no way forces you to tell the truth.
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Post by Charon's Claw on Sept 30, 2010 21:51:53 GMT -5
It has mind affecting in its descriptor, and it prevents someone from doing something that may or may not be fundamentally a part of their free will. It is also enchantment. While some may not feel it is so, that does not change that it is mind affecting, perhaps not at the degree of domination, but it does limit one's mind and actions. www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/zoneOfTruth.htm |
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Post by soulfien on Sept 30, 2010 22:11:08 GMT -5
CC... I said "mind magics" with quotes. That is a label I use to group cruel (as I see it) mental magics into.
I in no way meant to insinuate that zone of truth is not a mind spell.
I know what the spell does and that it requires a will save. I know that it is a mind spell and what its effects are.
I mean that it isn't a spell that I do not like... and thus does not fall into a label that I created based on my own opinion of mind magics.
Thus I say that it is not a "mind magic".
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Post by Charon's Claw on Sept 30, 2010 22:13:40 GMT -5
Just clarifying. "Mind magics" could have referred to a great amount of things. It technically is a mind magic, however it is not a mind magic that could be used for evil purposes to my awareness. Which does indeed fall under your personal qualification that I was previously unaware of, as relatively benign enchantment.
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Post by Lokarn on Oct 1, 2010 0:37:27 GMT -5
I'd say that "mind magics" as a personal term is not the best choice to use to mean what you use it for Soul, why not call them "evil mind control spells"
I only add my thoughts here because in the game world we play in "Mind Magics" is a term that will almost always be interpreted by others not privy to your own term, to mean "mind affecting spells".
Without the ability to instantly ask for clarification, like we would have in a real spoken conversation, sometimes text allows for misunderstandings and incorrect interpretations of intent.
It's good to be aware of these limitations.
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Post by magius on Oct 1, 2010 8:22:04 GMT -5
a zone of truth might be a mind magic.. a Truth Scrying spell i dont know what that is.. it just allows the caster of the spell to know when they are trying to hide away truth or lie. much better it don't effect their free will it just allows the caster to know what is truely spoken/hidden in the things one say is the moral in that spell Evil aswell ?.. *shrugs* i dont see anything spell evil.. dominateing a Frost giant to fight for you untill he die's or kill him.. is all the same to me.. domanateing a person to comit murder on people is anoter thing.. that is the personal evil.. But magic isn't evil.. Yes some spells indulge negative energys.. but i don't see negative energys as ''evil'' persay.. i see them as more like Bad.. man how to put it..mm nevermind.
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Post by soulfien on Oct 1, 2010 12:25:38 GMT -5
Just clarifying. "Mind magics" could have referred to a great amount of things. It technically is a mind magic, however it is not a mind magic that could be used for evil purposes to my awareness. Which does indeed fall under your personal qualification that I was previously unaware of, as relatively benign enchantment. I'm sorry CC for sounding snippy in my response. I'll try to work on that. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2010 14:06:52 GMT -5
Dominate Person and Dominate Monster are both neutral spells. They are neither Good nor Evil. Casting the spell will not change your alignment. However...
This is pretty much how I see it. Many different things can be done to someone while they are dominated. Just a few examples from my own experiences to illustrate this.
My own character dominated someone to force information out of them. He made them spill some of there secrets and then he killed them while they where unarmed and unable to defend themself. And then he left the corpse for someone to find. An Evil act.
Someone else dominated someone and then made them dance against there will. In public. This to me is again an evil act. Because it is robbing someone of their free will and humiliating them.
I have also seen people use domination to keep allies protected. Or to turn evil against evil. As Glandash mentioned. This is a good act. As is using domination to discover the truth in a none harmful way. A Tyrran, in my oppinion, would welcome the use of domination magics in a court room. As long as no harm came to the one dominated. Because it would be a certain way to acheive justice.
~Sio
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I'll add my own thoughts later.
), which is an evil act. 
