Your view of Forgotten realms Polytheism.

[megascorpion]

What is your view of Forgotten realms Polytheism? How do you think the people of the forgotten realms worship their gods? Is it different for a king or adventurer or a commoner or a priest? How does your character work with polytheism?


Short Version: My view: I think all gods, in most cases are be respected and at least paid lipservice to by the people(inside their pantheon) in the forgotten realms, come in contact with their portfolio((Tithing Malar before a hunt, Umberlee before going to sea.)) Exceptions being very few, with clergy of faiths who directly oppose eachother((Tymora/Beshaba)) or where the god is asking for worship of only one god((Bane, Cyric)). And I think labeling a character 'evil' in any way for giving a prayer or a tithe to Talos in a thunderstorm would be an incredibly odd practice, even for the most super zealous and narrow minded paladin.

----
Long Version: This topic has come up every now and then in different forms, and the last one got a bit hijacked and died, but I think it's time for another round. A day or two ago, there was a great storm raging over Greatgaunt, lightning struck down again and again, it nearly hit people at first, later actually did strike people. In the middle of this there were a priest of Talos, trying to get tithes for the Storm Lord. Strangely enough, in the middle of a raging storm, he got three out of a 'lot' of people. one from another follower of Talos, and one from my character, the third was from a follower of Kossuth because he took away the snow and made it rain instead, and so not to not get hit in the head with a lightning bolt. People even stood around shouting insults to Talos and others actively talking about how weak he is and how he has no might to do anything. This is all in the middle of a storm with lightning striking all around. Strangely enough none of those were actually hit by it.

Today, a lightning bolt struck from the sky suddenly, with no rain. To this two characters((mine being one)) shouted a quick praise to Talos to not get struck by the next one. To my surprise again they were the only one's, and were quickly accused of being 'worshipers' of Talos. Implying that Talos is their patron I assume, either way doesn't matter as it implies that that is an odd thing to do.

---
---

My view of FR's polytheism is that if a Storm is raging and lightning bolts are hitting all around, the reflex thing to do, and the thing all do((That are under the human FR pantheon that is of course, cross-pantheon worship is always completely optional.)) whether LG CG TN or CE in alignment, unless of a god with a monotheistic claim like Bane or Cyric, exception can also go to clergy of faiths with Talos listed as one of their major enemies. Or if you're a paladin((read paladin, not divine champion.)) And most definitely NOT shout out how weak and stupid and bad and what a bastard Talos is in the middle of it, unless you're playing a character with a wisdom of 3-5 that is. When lightning strikes 10 feet away from you, you offer a quick praise to Talos, and if you want to be a bit safer, offer a tithe to their clergy//temples or an offering yourself if you know how. I'd think would be the common reaction.

-----

My view is that even if you are LG or CG you: Give prayer and praise to Bane when you feel really afraid for some reason, to ward him off, offer a prayer to Cyric if you have a lie you really really don't want to get out, alternatively, Shar. Offer a tithe or some sort of offering to Malar before a hunt, or praise him while being hunted by a wolf so that maybe he will spare you. Whisper masks name as you try to hide from something, or when playing hide 'n go seek as a child. Praise to Umberlee before taking the ferry, or a tithe or offering before a longer trip by sea. As you go down in power level((or whatever it's called )) of the gods, the spread of worship and lipservice decreases. And of course some might not be very well known at all. But I'd like to add a little quote

"Although the thought of Beshaba actually appearing is enough to make most folk tremble, she is always invited and welcomed formally in speeches or ceremonies of formal functions (such as marriages and coronations), contests of sport or martial prowess, or at the naming of children. If not invited, she may take offense and wreak endless misfortune upon those involved."

That's from Faiths & Pantheons and notice the "always"((though I still do not believe it always happens of course or there would be no mention of what would happen if they didn't, but I at least have never heard of this being done on FRC and I have a feeling if it were, the goodies would gasp and be ready to lynch whoever invited her. I also believe a sick person would give praise or a tithe to Talona, as would the neighbors and family members of the sick person to not get sick as well.

The same goes for the good gods if you're evil or neutral and so on.((I see a lack of this the other way as well but it's less prominent.))

EDIT: I'd also like to add that it's completely possible to actively work against a faith((it's clergy), but still offer lipservice to the god when in contact with it's portfolio.
-----

The 2e books Faiths & Avatars explains it really well, the FRCS also has a bit on the subject, and the faith system has changed a bit between editions anyway. But I think this quote sums it up rather well, along with the fact that not every polytheistic faith works the same in this or most regards. But I think this will do to explain some of the difficulty:

"The religions of the Forgotten Realms are not monotheistic. They are polytheistic, This is difficult for many a role-playing game players to understand, as most real-world nonoriental religions of the modern are are monotheistic." Faiths & Avatars p.2.

And this is not an accusation to anyone's roleplay but encouragement to discuss so I and as many as possible might learn something from it. I want to know other people's understanding of it.

Link to the previous thread: frc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=roleplaydiscussion&action=display&thread=10811

[Lady Frost]

I completely agree that many characters don't see this very well. Many gods come to an area, like Talona and Auril for example. They come to cause havoc and gain prayers from it. If nobody offers prayers lots of people die. The yell curses at Talos during a thunderstorm is just stupid. All the gods play a part in the world and should be respected to some degree. Zoe has no love for Sunites and their teachings and is the polar opposite alignment of Sune, but she understands the need for beauty and is glad Sune blessed her with beauty. That's just one of my many examples of how my evil cleric can understand and accept something "good". Just as a good cleric should understand that when 10 feet of snow fall in 2.5 minutes you should probably offer Auril a prayer.

Anyhow, I talked more about it in the previously posted thread.

[catmage]

The Alizarin Academy sent a formal invitation to Beshaba's shrine for it's grand opening, I believe note of it was placed on the forums somewhere.

I regularly play my characters as having multiple close to them deities, except for the few clerics I played and quickly abandoned. For example, as a scholar and a half dragon, Ailren holds both Tiamat and Oghma as sources of frequent priase and worship, even though Tiamat generally demands sole worship, since her dogma portrays her as being in essence aligned against all other deities. Taihaer is follower of Hlal, but considers every trickster deity to be his ally. Of course, when bad weather abounds, Tai goes for Aerdrie over Talos, but that's pure culture. Either character would find a devout monotheist weird, and a Faithless to be avoided like a slumber party at Shar's house.

As the book you quoted says, most players are used to monotheism, and used to the idea of declaring their faith, at least in their own minds. The average Faerunian is depicted as being largely unaware of having a personal patron, and pray to gods as the need dictates. They don't realize their patron until after death. For the most part, only evil deities maintain a need for exlusive worship, so I'd feel off base having a good or neutral monotheist.

[Roseanna]

OOC, this has been difficult for me, and not in the way of thinking monotheistically. My issue is that, as a player, I just don't -know- most of the faiths and gods well enough to be able to RP within their decrees well.

For IC purposes I have taken the time to RP with other characters of differing faiths, to find out why they pay homage to one deity over another and what makes that deity special for that character. It has been a great learning experience for me as a player, and I get to know more about the various gods.

For my character based on the psuedo-history I made for her, I had her mostly acknowledging one deity. Since playing, I have had her learn and consider paying homage to different deities when it makes sense to do so.

As far as evil gods go, there is a IC rule about worshipping or paying homage to a list of gods which will get you arrested. Now, my character does not want to get arrested, and being that OOC I cannot keep track of what god is what without more learning, I probably would not ICly condone nor verbally assault another character that does it.

At least when my character sees someone paying homage to a deity, I can emote watching out of curiousity and visit the FR Wiki to do a bit of research.

[megascorpion]

Thanks Catmage, I have not even thought of my chars not even knowing their patron, and all my chars are quite dedicated to one god while all but one pay regular tithes and give praise to all gods when I deem it appropriate. As well as asking people what patron//favourite god they have is a frequent topic of conversation for all of them. I do find not knowing who your patron is and worshipping all gods when in contact with their portfolio a lot more interesting.((Gets more difficult to get a 'This is what my char is like' response though hehe))

Roseanna: Yeah, this is part of why I think banning an entire faith outright is a bit absurd. Though I do not believe they have banned all lipservice//offerings//tithes? They might have, I think it's absurd either way and screaming to get Cormyr destroyed ((To my knowledge it is not source either, I've seen no mention of Cormyr banning any faith in source. But I might have missed it somehow I suppose hehe. And the ban is in place due to server history I believe.))

[The Flying Ve]

Banning faiths is mostly a practise done for political reasons to have grounds for an arrest and inquiry. As such, the rumour of worshipping an illegal god can be enough for detainment and inquiry(and anyone going "but the war wizards are gooood!" need but look at a certain wizard tower and recall specific former members). Cormyr may be a LG nation, but that does not mean everyone who works for Cormyr is that.

Quite a few of my characters don't know their patron, btw, and why would they? They'll know after they permanently die, unless they're divine casters, in the meantime, I'll swap their respective patrons depending on their development and behaviour, no matter if they actually pray at said god's shrine or not.

[kaltorac]

For any that read the FR Source Books, it's mentioned many times in them that most of the folk of Faerun while favoring one or a few deities, they acknowledge most of them. As Catmage pointed out, you can also not know ICly who it is you favor either. Or favor one and pay homage to many as circumstances dictate. (EX: Drizzt is a ranger of Meilikki, but was one long before he ever knew she existed also.)

It would be completely IC for even a LG couple to tithe to Besheba on their wedding day to prevent her from cursing them. It doesn't make the couple "evil" because they do this, it merely makes them prudent and knowledgeable.

A barbarian worshipper of Tempus can ask Talos to hold his fury until shelter in the wilds is found and it doesn't demean his worship of Tempus in the least. It merely shows the barabarian understands that his own favored deity does not hold sway over storms is all.

Dwarves, elves, gnomes, and halflings that worship a specific deity often pay homage to other deities in the pantheon for specific circumstances. This even applies to clerics. Acknowledging a deity's presence and portfolio is not the same as endorsing or following it.

My own main PC is a fairly devoute follower of Corellon, but invokes the blessings of many other deities during various times as well. Tymora for Luck and Waukeen for favorable deals at times or Shevaresh if on a hunt for drow and Erevan if he's pulled off a good prank on a friend (or foe).

Talona may be the goddess of disease, but a peasant seeking one of her clerics for a cure isn't evil for asking for aid. They are merely recognising "who" is responsible for afflictions is all.

The deity a PC selects should be the one whose portfolio and dogma best reflect the PC's own beliefs and actions. This shouldn't hinder them from acknowledging the spheres of influence other deities have though.

[EDM Neo]

First of all, I am completely agreed that MegaScorpion has rather accurately described the ways that most commonfolk (and indeed many adventurers) should handle polytheism.

However! I think that there's another important aspect of the story to consider.

I'd just like to post a few excerpts from Deity Do's and Don'ts, the official web enhancement for Faiths & Pantheons (the primary sourcebook for information regarding Forgotten Realms deities and religion), available freely from the Wizards of the Coast site here. I think it did a much more eloquent job of wording most of this then I could have.

(I left out three subsections under HOW TO USE DEITIES, namely DEITIES HAVE THEMES, DEITIES HAVE SPECIAL MAGIC, and DEITIES HAVE TIME because I felt that these weren't as closely related to the issue at hand, but I would suggest that anyone interested download the PDF and have a look for themselves)

Using Deities in the Forgotten Realms

For most creatures in Faerûn, the deities are distant, immensely powerful beings to be feared, respected, and worshipped, but never seen or spoken to. The vast majority of people will never see a deity, let alone speak to one. To them, a deity’s presence is felt through the mortal church and servants of that church. The exceptions, of course, are adventurers who get mixed up in the deity’s plans, and those lucky or unlucky souls who interacted with an avatar during the Time of Troubles. In most cases, this second- or third-hand contact is more than sufficient—anything more is far too dangerous to comprehend.

From time to time, adventurers may become tangled in a deity’s plans, usually by coming into conflict with that deity’s mortal agents. Now that Bane’s church controls the Zhentarim, every fight against the Zhentarim is combat against agents of Bane. However, Bane’s hand is not behind every Zhent raid, and his eyes do not watch over every Zhent caravan; he has clerics to take care of little things while he works on his greatest plans. Only after many struggles with the more powerful members of a deity’s church are adventures likely to interact with direct representatives of that deity, usually in the form of servitor demons or other outsider allies of the church. When someone attacks the pinnacle of church power, such as the temple of Bane in Zhentil Keep or Fzoul Chembryl himself, a deity probably will intervene. Under such circumstances, Bane may send an avatar to defend his temple or avenge his Chosen. It is only in the most strange and dire situations that Bane would appear personally in his true form, not in avatar form. Such direct intervention attracts the notice of other deities, both enemies and allies, and multiple deities appearing in their true form on Faerûn could cause irreparable damage—it may actually be forbidden by Ao himself. The deities are allowed certain means to express their desires and channel their power into the mortal world, normally through their divine spellcaster worshipers. Exceeding these means has consequences.



How to Use Deities

Here is some advice on how to use deities in a campaign. Remembering these facts about deities will help ensure that you guard the balance of power, keep the heroes as the campaign’s central figures, and maintain the suspension of disbelief needed for a fantasy game.


DEITIES HAVE FOLLOWERS

No deity in the course of a normal day should be forced to manifest on the Material Plane to deal with a problem. Such an act requires the expenditure of a lot of divine power and draws untoward attention, which can lead to open conflicts between deities. Instead, deities have all sorts of servants, from the celestial or fiendish attendants to mortal worshipers. Considering that it takes at least a lesser planar ally spell to get even a hound archon or a succubus to show up for any length of time, it usually proves a more efficient use of a deity’s power to send a worshiper to take care of a problem on the Material Plane. That worshiper could be a cleric or simply a devout member of the faith. Mortal worshipers also have advantages compared to outsiders in that they actually belong in the world; they aren’t thwarted by magical barriers designed to hedge outsiders, they don’t radiate an overwhelming alignment aura (a typical evil mortal worshiper radiates one-fifth the evil of an outsider of the same Hit Dice), and, if slain, they can be brought back easily with a raise dead spell (whereas outsiders need a wish or miracle).

Mortal followers are fun for a Dungeon Master to use because they come in such an amazing variety. Bane, for example, has many human, half-elf, and dwarf followers, and his more monstrous legions include beholders, black dragons, banelars (from Monster Compendium: Monsters of Faerûn), and several kinds of new undead. While some players may memorize the abilities of every type of devil in the book, an unarmored humanoid could be a monk, sorcerer, wizard, rogue, some undead creature in disguise, or a cleric with glamered armor. The abilities of such a being remain the DM’s greatest secret.

Deities use mortals to take care of their problems because, while they wield incredible power, they wisely conserve it, preferring to use the least effort necessary to create an effect. If an evil deity needs a monster to attack a village, it is less costly to send a cleric to cast endure elements, bull’s strength, and endurance on a dire wolf, rather than arranging to send a fiendish dire wolf to the Material Plane. If a good deity needs a tracker to hunt down a demon, it proves less costly to send a ranger and a cleric than a hound archon (and the ranger and cleric won’t attract as much attention); a multiclassed ranger/cleric might be an even better choice.

While it is tempting to reach for the big guns as a challenge for the player characters, remember that if it were that easy to send such creatures to take care of business, there would be no need for adventurers—the good deities would send celestial minions just as often as the evil deities sent fiendish ones. Let the heroes be heroes, and let the mortal villains be the villains, and have the outsiders (and the deities themselves) remain the exception.



How Not to Use Deities

The above section describes the normal ways a deity interacts in a FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign, as described in published novels, game sourcebooks, and adventures. These are by no means the only ways, but they are certainly the expected methods of involving a deity in an active campaign. Should you choose to give deities a more active role, carefully examine these pitfalls that arise from relying too much on their qualities.


DEITIES ARE POWERFUL

Deities are so far above the power level of any adventuring party that introducing one as a direct adversary presents an unbeatable obstacle to all but the highest-level characters. If, every time an evil cleric dies, his deity appears to avenge him, the heroes will end up fighting—and losing to—the deity every session. That is no fun for the players. Even a limited intervention of this type—such as a permanent bestow curse spell falling upon any character that slays an evil priest—discourages heroes from fighting evil. In fact, it punishes them for it. If the evil deity is there holding the evil cleric’s hand, avenging wrongs and negating ills, the heroes will wonder why their cleric’s deity doesn’t back them up the same way. This sort of play causes an escalation of power the game isn’t designed to handle and soon reduces the player characters to pawns in a game controlled entirely by the DM. D&D is about heroes fighting villains, not about heroes watching their deity battle another deity. Use the game’s tools to make level-appropriate challenges for the heroes, and remember that adjusting the power of a character at a particular level (even to add something as innocuous as a deity-invoked bestow curse at the villain’s death) changes the creature’s Challenge Rating and the Encounter Level, so adjust the heroes’ rewards accordingly.


DEITIES ARE KNOWLEDGEABLE

Another trap to avoid is a deity’s omniscience. If every evil cleric the heroes face knows what they can do and has spells and magic items to thwart them, the game becomes less fun—the heroes can’t do what they are good at doing. The Adventures chapter in the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide says to not preempt character abilities; don’t throw a dozen fire-resistant foes at a wizard who just learned fireball, for instance. The same goes for using deities in a game. Deities may be omniscient, but they normally don’t have the time to advise all their clerics of every single foe and how to thwart them. This puts the heroes and villains on equal footing, for the good deities can’t sneak information to the heroes, either. Of course, spells such as augury and divination allow either side to anticipate the powers of the other (just remember to account for this in the villain’s prepared spells and previously cast spells). Likewise, a recurring villain will learn the player characters’ tactics and plan for them.

Consider this the reverse of the player knowledge vs. character knowledge axiom; if you don’t want the players using out-of-character knowledge of monsters to their advantage, don’t let the NPCs use your knowledge of the heroes to their advantage, just because the villains enjoy a deity’s backing.


DEITIES ARE LEADERS

As beings of phenomenal power, deities attract like-minded individuals to their service, or create such beings to serve them. In addition to their huge numbers of mortal servants, deities acquire, create, or enslave many other beings, from fiendish humanoids to conventional outsiders to bizarre monsters related to their portfolios. It is easy to hurl gangs of minions at heroes whenever they deviate from an adventure’s plot. However, this is unrealistic, particularly if the minions had no reason to be there other than to drive the heroes back to the main story. It’s also frustrating for the players, who usually resent being railroaded.

This trap really is another aspect of the “Deities Are Powerful” problem. Just as you shouldn’t use a deity’s overwhelming power as an overt foil to character actions, don’t use a deity’s overwhelming armies of minions to do it, either. Such actions make the player characters feel ignored by their own deity, for no horde of celestials ever appears to back them up when the tide turns against them. What’s fair for the villains is fair for the heroes. Plus, it’s much easier on the DM to run a game for two small opposing groups rather than two opposing armies.


DEITIES ARE ENEMIES

Sometimes the player characters find themselves used to deploy one deity against another. If, while fighting the Banite church, the heroes manage to defeat the high priest only to find he has just summoned an avatar of Bane, the solution isn’t to ask the party cleric to summon the avatar of Torm. This reduces the heroes to bit parts in a larger drama and forces them to watch the DM roleplay interaction between the two near-impervious avatars.

Just as the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting says you should make the PCs the stars of your campaign and not sideline them with famous NPCs, you also shouldn’t sideline them with deities. Making a deity a star in this manner is even more frustrating than doing it with a famous NPC. While the heroes (with the right multiclassing and the proper spells) theoretically can manage the same feats an NPC performs, using “star” deities tells players that their characters could never have solved the challenge regardless of smart and resourceful play. Part of the fun of D&D is overcoming challenges, and challenges that can’t be overcome aren’t fun.


DEITIES ARE EXOTIC

Deities operate at such an incredible level of power compared to mortals that any divine appearance should be a remarkable event. Even the avatars are usually more powerful than 20th-level characters, and introducing an avatar should be something special. If the deities or their avatars appear often in a campaign, they begin to feel mundane. If the heroes get used to encountering avatars on every adventure, characters like Fzoul, Szass Tam, and the rulers of countries seem lessened by comparison, The heroes are more likely to dismiss the presence of their powerful-but-mortal adversaries and wonder when Garagos is going to show up.

This problem ties in to the “Deities Are Knowledgeable” trap. If the deities have so much free time that they can drop by the Material Plane whenever they feel like it, why do they bother with clerics at all? To preserve the feel of the setting and the role of adventurers in the world, actual appearances by deities or their avatars should remain scarce. Let the characters be the heroes, and save the host of avatars for the Time of Troubles.

So... yes, it makes perfect sense for most good PCs to pay their respects even to evil gods, and for most evil PCs to pay their respects even to good gods.

However, failure to do so should, more often then not, *not* result in a deity's avatar coming down and personally putting the smack down on the transgressors.

If someone loots a shrine, it should, more often then not, *not* result in the god the shrine is dedicated to putting a curse on them... it should result in them triggering a magical trap set by the deity's *followers* to do so, which may use divine magic, but which will only use divine magic that the local clerics actually have access to.

If Cormyr bans the worship of Bane and Cyric and Shar and Gargauth, it should *not* result in the avatars of those deities coming down and wreaking havoc across the lands. It should *not* result in those gods sending an army of fiends to punish the foolish infidels. It *should* result in the *worshipers* of those gods taking offense and trying to punish them for it... possibly even with the aid of divine guidance or suggestion, but not actually by the gods' hands personally.

That's not to say that direct divine intervention is *always* a bad thing, just that it should be used in moderation. It wouldn't be feared or hoped for if it didn't *sometimes* happen. But it should be a rare, very special event, not something that happens once a week like clockwork. Things are a bit more lenient with matters directly regarding a deity's portfolio, like in the example MegaScorpion used of people loudly attempting to taunt Talos in the middle of a thunderstorm, essentially at the center of his power, but the point still stands.

In short... the gods of Faerun are not all powerful. They might as well be, when compared to most mortals, but they still aren't free to intervene in the mortal world at will, lest their enemies choose to do the same. If you're going to have an avatar of Cyric swoop in to stop a paladin of Torm from defacing one of his shrines or killing his followers, you'd better have a pretty good explanation as to why an avatar of Torm doesn't come to protect the paladin in turn.

As is written in Deity Do's and Don'ts, "The deities are allowed certain means to express their desires and channel their power into the mortal world, normally through their divine spellcaster worshipers. Exceeding these means has consequences."

[soulfien]

Garistan: Feared no God. If a God had something to offer him he'd pay tribute. He would tithe to Mystra and Tymora while offering praise to Azuth.

He would have completely destroyed the Cyric shrine if he could have made it to it but it's locked away to all non-worshipers. He even destroyed the Velsharoon shrine. He refused to be intimidated into worship. If he had a string of bad luck he'd simply think it was because he hadn't tithed to Tymora lately. He would never pay tribute to Talona so that she would stop throwing plagues about. That was silly to him.

Glenduil: He's an elf who refuses to pay tribute to evil gods. Elves don't tithe to Lloth so that she'll keep her drow from attacking on the surface. It just doesn't happen and he applies this to human evil deities as well.

Tonall: Refuses to tithe to Auril in hopes she'll make it finally stop snowing in Greatgaunt. Instead he tithes to Kossuth in hopes he'll stop her from making it snow in Greatgaunt. He's a Kossuthian. He hates Auril.

[piousheretic]

The deities who you'd be more likely to pay homage to would not be deities like Shar, Cyric, Bane, and Gargauth. I think they're notable exceptions to the rule, given the following:

- Cyric's followers believe he's the one true god
- Shar's faith is full of nihilists and the goddess herself wishes to end creation
- Bane wants to rule everything
- Gargauth wants to make Faerun the Tenth Hell.

Those are some pretty strong belief systems, and many of them are hard to reconcile with the many other belief systems. The worshiper of Chauntea would probably be more than willing to tithe the wandering Talassan to avoid having the thatched roof to his homestead suddenly get struck by lightning. By contrast, there's not much that Chauntean can do around a worshiper of the Black Sun other than be converted or die, given Cyricists are monotheists and see their faith as "The One True Path".

On another note entirely, why is Gargauth explicitly mentioned as one of the banned faiths? Only a handful of people even know of the Outcast, and those who do worship him (see: The Knights of the Shield) don't even know they're doing so. It's a super-secret faith, so it doesn't make much sense to me.

[jensmann]

May 18, 2010 13:03:26 GMT -5 @soulfien said:

G

Tonall: Refuses to tithe to Auril in hopes she'll make it finally stop snowing in Greatgaunt. Instead he tithes to Kossuth in hopes he'll stop her from making it snow in Greatgaunt. He's a Kossuthian. He hates Auril.

So basically instead of Snow he wants to have Rain i see.

Okay now back to Tophic, the Furys and Talona are the best examples for evil deities worshiped by normal folks. If some crazy Adventurer insults Talos in town the locals nearby would most likely shaken in fear of the next storm and tithing and begging for forgivness, so Talos wrath will hit the one who insulted him and not them.

Talos, Malar, Auril, Umberlee and Talona represent disasters and natural catastrophes, they are not to be taken lightely.

Isnedir does his best not to anger the evil deities, he even tithed once ot Umberlee before he help the first spring festival, seeing it was near the costs, it is no evil to give a few coins of respect.

Of course there are Crazy Evil deities like Cyric, no sane man wil tithe to them.

As well what i have heared, it is a common traditoions in the FR to invite Beshaba to your wedding, she won't come anyways, but she is deeply insulted if she is not invited. Meaning she will bless the bond make with bad luck. ((but i am not to 100% sure about that, woudl be nice if our triad of useless knowledge can confirm it))

But basically, the gods exists, the gods have thier portfolios, and they take them -very- seriously.

Gran for example my be a thayan but he has mask as a Patron god. But he also tithes to Shar, and the other Gods as well. He also tithed ot Tymora after he restored from one.

There are many gods and all do thier thing, you better respect it or suffer the consequenses.

[megascorpion]

I agree with Neo that an avatar shouldn't come down to smite people every time someone desecrates their shrine, but I think pissing on Gruumsh shrine should still be a rather stupid thing to do. I also think that if the gods have any power at all, it is through their portfolio, so if Talos can't or won't send lightning into people who's shouting what a bastard he is heads when they're standing in a great storm with lightning striking all around, I fail to see how their portfolio matters in any way at all. I'm not saying every person doing this should always get a lightning bolt in their head, but I'd not think it'd be too rare or Talos might as well be the god of crippled pink ducks.
---
My thoughts are thinking Garistan would be a bit of a fool((low'ish wis anyways)) in the FR setting There are no evil gods within the elven pantheon, so that is entirely within what I've been saying hehe. As is Tonall as I believe he is a priest or at least a very devout follower of Kossuth.
---
Pious: This is part of a point I wanted to get through, but can't explain very well, the clergy of a god, and the actual god is not the same thing. Cyric's followers do believe he's the one true god, but offering a tithe to him, even through his clergy, because you're an illusionist or really don't want your husband to know you think he's fat, ought still not to be a problem. Giving a tithe or prayer to the god is not endorsing him or encouraging what he's doing, it's simply wishing your lie to get through.

You're not wishing: Oh Bane you're so awesome I want you to rule the world. And give me lots of power.
When you're afraid of the dark so you can barely sleep.
You're wishing: Go away bane so I can sleep.

What the gods and their clergy's goals are and what shenanigans is quite irrelevant. And 'every' priest of Cyric doesn't go around murdering people, nor is every priest of Shar a very good priest of Shar at all but merely picked the profession up as something to do. I've seen a number of stories about terrible Chauntean priest drunks who barely perform their rituals and so on, but are still priests. Take tithes and instruct people to prayer, and so still fills a function for society in that the farmers get their tithes and prayers through.

---

Jensmann, why is tithing Cyric more insane than tithing Talos? Neither to me is encouraging their churches or the gods to run around murdering people, or burn down their houses and forests with destructive fire.
---
Anyhow I don't think I've gotten my point across very well in this post, I'll have to think more on the whole matter. And, I use words like should and is but note it's all my view and my opinion and I realize that hehe

[qewaye]

May 18, 2010 14:19:30 GMT -5 megascorpion said:

There are no evil gods within the elven pantheon, so that is entirely within what I've been saying hehe.

Actually there are 2 that have had evil followers on FRC in the past, Fenmarel Mestarine(the god of elven outcasts)and Shevarash(revenge, loss and hatred of drow). So there you go, it is possible to have evil Seldarine-following elves. The one step rule.

[megascorpion]

Note, I said there are no evil elven gods, not no evil followers of the gods. And his entire comment was to evil gods, not elves being evil. Also to add: You can have LE and NE followers of the seldarine to, the one step rule is only for clergy.

[ancientempathy]

Heck even GORSTAG recognizes Tymora's blessings and power. If you know Gorstag then people will know he's very picky about the use of luck and where it has its places

Great post Neo

[qewaye]

May 18, 2010 14:31:08 GMT -5 megascorpion said:

Note, I said there are no evil elven gods, not no evil followers of the gods. And his entire comment was to evil gods, not elves being evil. Also to add: You can have LE and NE followers of the seldarine to, the one step rule is only for clergy.

Yeah there are no evil elven gods, followers yes. The one step rule was just a throwaway comment about clerics, that is what I meant. I've met CE and NE followers of elven deities, it's a shame the choices don't show up on our rather rigid deity selector.

[828stingstingneo]

I can totally sympathize with Roseanna's problem. I can much more understand the concept of polytheism than actually learn and remember what is probably common knowledge about the pantheons to my characters living in the polytheistic world. If any of my characters had been there for the lightning storm/Talos RP, I as a player would have been thinking, "Who is Talos again?" and probably just not participated much (neither on the appease Talos side nor on the abuse Talos side). The only thing I really know about Talos is that he's a griefer (from Soulf's signature).

I like the idea of not knowing your own patron, but because I don't know enough common knowledge about the pantheons I actually find it easier to RP that my characters do know who their patrons are (or at least think they know). That way I can focus my own research on that deity and at least know who his allies and enemies are. In general, I don't think characters who know their patrons would even pay lip service to enemy deities, instead appealing to their own and trying to give their own more power over that enemy.

Other than having that sort of focus, the best way I learn about the polytheistic world of FRC is in game. Because of this I really appreciate players who RP devotion to their patrons/pantheons well (and thanks to the many of you out there that do that), but yes there is some confusion when people take different interpretations on how their characters would react to the mention of certain deities.

Because of IC experiences, my main character is inclined to seriously mistrust specific evil deities. She has reasons to doubt that offering tithe or even praise to an evil deity would really appease him; it's most likely just superstition, or worse giving the deity in question more power. On the other hand, she's more likely to follow a different superstition that some PCs follow by avoiding the mention of certain names.

I guess my take on RPing in a polytheistic society is that the commoners, and probably even most adventurers, don't really know how much is superstition and propaganda of the clergy vs. how the gods really are affected by mere mortal attention. After all, as Neoseanster's post pointed out, the gods themselves have very good reason to be subtle with their maneuvers. In general, no matter what their personal beliefs are, I think our characters would at least not be too surprised when they encounter the varying beliefs and superstitions of others.

Edited grammar

[maeglhachel]

May 19, 2010 10:07:46 GMT -5 828stingstingneo said:

I guess my take on RPing in a polytheistic society is that the commoners, and probably even most adventurers, don't really know how much is superstition and propaganda of the clergy vs. how the gods really are affected by mere mortal attention. After all, as Neoseanster's post pointed out, the gods themselves have very good reason to be subtle with their maneuvers. In general, no matter what their personal beliefs are, I think our characters would at least not be too surprised when they encounter the varying beliefs and superstitions of others.

Edited grammar

That's one of my bigger issues with the whole faith thing in FR (and other fantasy settings). It's not really faith in the sense that it's your belief. What the gods do or don't is often treated as known fact. Which reduces the whole question to one of who the mortal wants to bow to. That's very different from RL faiths.