Out of Character Kill

[The Supreme Watcher]

Tonight I had my paladin threatened by another character, in the middle of a DM plot with a large amount of undead. The offense was that I had not typed // ooc before I killed one of the wolves that we spawned in the Hullack.

What the intent of this thread is, is to ask the community: Does this make sense? Does typing // ooc make doing anything alright, even if it has potential consequences for your character (hp damage, gained experience, usage of spells, etc.)? What are the consequences of performing a regular 'out of character' action that affects the server, your character's stats, and your character's XP/GP flow?

Let me begin by giving my opinion: I do not believe that killing any monster, whether it be a wolf, an orc, a dragon, anything, should be considered out of character. Ever. If you play a druid, play them as feral animals. If you play an elf, play them as diseased and a threat to the Hullack. Justify it -somehow- in character, because we are not supposed to speak out of character in excess, so what is the justification for advancing our characters in an out of character manner?

[EDM Entori]

Mar 25, 2010 23:42:37 GMT -5 The Supreme Watcher said:

Tonight I had my paladin threatened by another character, in the middle of a DM plot with a large amount of undead. The offense was that I had not typed // ooc before I killed one of the wolves that we spawned in the Hullack.

What the intent of this thread is, is to ask the community: Does this make sense? Does typing // ooc make doing anything alright, even if it has potential consequences for your character (hp damage, gained experience, usage of spells, etc.)? What are the consequences of performing a regular 'out of character' action that affects the server, your character's stats, and your character's XP/GP flow?

Let me begin by giving my opinion: I do not believe that killing any monster, whether it be a wolf, an orc, a dragon, anything, should be considered out of character. Ever. If you play a druid, play them as feral animals. If you play an elf, play them as diseased and a threat to the Hullack. Justify it -somehow- in character, because we are not supposed to speak out of character in excess, so what is the justification for advancing our characters in an out of character manner?

I never got a chance to explain that action or what I meant totally, from the get go, so I'll restart.


a wolf was dragged away from the necessary battle, and entori used an invisiblity wand whilst saying leave it.. yet other characters attended to jump on it and kill it, a source of frustration..



the ooc thing. Is not meant to be a direct *run up and kill something* then type //ooc. That is not an out of character kill..


Where this has been used in the past is where us forest loving folks, do not wish to ICly slay our spawns. as it is not an in character action, and our rules say we must.

this is the point where we move on, and double back to kill such a creature, this is known as an ooc kill. and has been encourage by many members of the dm team in the past.

I encourage folks to use this, because your character cannot always *scare GIANT BEAR away with hits from the flat of his blade*.. or *knock wolves out with fist*.. it was a way to allow more immersion.


I'm sorry for the mis understanding.

what is IC, and IC however.


*shifty eyes, draws bow string*

[The Supreme Watcher]

Question stands, as does the suggestion!

Not about you, Entori. Just something I always thought was icky, and finally had the gumption to post about.

As another addendum to the opening post: We are also encouraged to kill all spawns to prevent server lag. What does this mean for people that normally would not combat animals?

[The Flying Ve]

Mar 26, 2010 0:00:24 GMT -5 The Supreme Watcher said:

Question stands, as does the suggestion!

Not about you, Entori. Just something I always thought was icky, and finally had the gumption to post about.

As another addendum to the opening post: We are also encouraged to kill all spawns to prevent server lag. What does this mean for people that normally would not combat animals?

They're tainted by the demonic influence of X, perverted into unnatural behaviour by the nearby shrine of god y etc. There's a dozen reasons to kill animals that attack you, the primary one: Rabies.

[EDM Entori]

Mar 26, 2010 0:04:12 GMT -5 The Flying Ve said:

Mar 26, 2010 0:00:24 GMT -5 The Supreme Watcher said:

Question stands, as does the suggestion!

Not about you, Entori. Just something I always thought was icky, and finally had the gumption to post about.

As another addendum to the opening post: We are also encouraged to kill all spawns to prevent server lag. What does this mean for people that normally would not combat animals?

They're tainted by the demonic influence of X, perverted into unnatural behaviour by the nearby shrine of god y etc. There's a dozen reasons to kill animals that attack you, the primary one: Rabies.

what about all the more likely reasons, such as you encroached on their territory?. use wilders would prefer that one (and will probably hold most people to that one).

as I said, you can use those excuses, or the ooc method (it makes us feel better).

the fact is there is very little saying what the creatures are like, besides the fact that a ranger can tame them, meaning their not tainted, and their not evil. most animals are neutral, if they attack you, they are doing so for good reason. What the human see's and what the wolf sees are probably two different things.

(theres also the elf whos hidden in the tree)

I get both sides, I just wanted to make sure my point is clear cut. because tells are icky

[lakhena]

Eh... what about those of us who can't kill the animals we tame b/c they're tougher than we are? I've seen other nature folks do the ooc kill (which is awkward to me, but understandable). However, I'm fairly certain that if I try it, my druid will die. She's kind of wimpy...

[Munroe]

Mar 26, 2010 0:12:23 GMT -5 EDM Entori said:

the fact is there is very little saying what the creatures are like, besides the fact that a ranger can tame them, meaning their not tainted, and their not evil. most animals are neutral, if they attack you, they are doing so for good reason. What the human see's and what the wolf sees are probably two different things.

As a sidenote to this conversation, "what a ranger can tame" is a horrible logic of what isn't ill and isn't evil. Mechanically, in NWN, a ranger can tame a worg, or a winter wolf, or a displacer beast, all of which are in fact evil.

Really, animal empathy shouldn't affect magical beasts with an INT higher than 3, but NWN doesn't check the creature's INT score at all, only its creature type. Magical beasts, which can be of any alignment (usually by race), and have high intelligence (up to and beyond human level), should not all be susceptible to Animal Empathy when they're intelligent, but when the engine judges, they are.

I run a vampire plot. Vampires can summon bats, rats, or wolves. These creatures are, plot-wise, utterly dominated and under the control of the vampire that summoned them. That doesn't change the fact that the first druid or ranger on the scene is likely to empathize the creature when it should be impossible.

In short, the engine ability to use Animal Empathy is a horrible justification that an animal is "fine."

================================================

To the main topic of the thread, OOC kills are sucky, but they're a necessary sucky. If you wouldn't kill a creature but server rules require you to clean your spawns (which they do), then you still need to OOC kill it. However, if your character WOULD kill the creature then OOC kill is a bad way to avoid appropriate in-character repercussions.

[Lady Frost]

Under the right circumstances, I think its fine. Examples:

~A druid that has calmed animals then "sent them on their way".

~Unhostile creatures

~Spawning something that you could avoid a fight with but clearing them for "lag" reasons.


There are a number of races, creatures, faiths that Zoe has no interest in killing but has to because they spawned way off in the distance someplace. I could have her just continue on and ignore them, but the server asks you to kill your spawns so I do, OOC'ly. I don't prefer the idea of OOC killing animals that haven't been "calmed", but it honestly doesn't rank all that high on immersion breaking for me.

[The Supreme Watcher]

Mar 26, 2010 0:12:23 GMT -5 EDM Entori said:

(theres also the elf whos hidden in the tree)

Alright, so when you are being observed without knowing it: Should you still announce // ooc kill to the emptiness, or should the player watching from stealth interpret it as an ooc kill? There -are- spawns that are unavoidable, after all. All of this applies to Banites fighting the Zhentarim, Gruumsh half-orcs killing orc shamans, etc. etc. as well.

[simondelsolis]

There are Scientific reasons to kill an animal that a druid or even Ranger would normally prefer not to.

Injured- to put out of misery.

Balance in nature. If thre are too many wolves for an ecosphere it could lead to too much culling of the Deer and other herbivores and could lead to starvation for not just a lot of wolves but for others that get sustenance from deer.

There are scientific studies that detail how bad it is for an ecosphere when there is too much of one species in an environment.

[highknight]

My personal opinion follows (it is by no means the opinion of the DM Team):

If you can find an IC reason to kill a spawn you wouldn't normally, please do so. If you can substitute an IC action for a kill (i.e. *smacks with flat of blade to shoo/knockout*) then I'm fine with that, too.

If you really can't come up with anything at the moment, typing "//ooc kill" is acceptable, but please use it sparingly.

A & B are great and open up RP opportunities. C is an easy out if nothing comes to mind.

*drops the two coppers on the floor and heads off to do work in the math lab like he should be doing *

[828stingstingneo]

My druids/ranger sometimes OOC kill animals, mainly if I dominated them and need to clean the spawn before I go into town. In most other cases I don't worry about it too much. After all, the animals are attacking me first. There's no better excuse to kill them than that: "It was self-defense." If wild animals (that in RL would normally just run from people) are attacking, then I don't think anyone should get bent out of shape with a nature lover fighting back. I agree that it's preferable to take the time to emote chasing them off, but I do sometimes just want to be able to finish typing before my party members have already killed it. Perhaps a quickslot is in order.

As for killing off spawns you can dominate but not fight, I often leave them unbuffed and unhealed through the adventure so if the other things I've been fighting haven't done it for me I can more easily kill it myself at the end. Perhaps all of that is OOC since ICly a nature lover would care for the creature and leave it behind at the end of the day. If you can't kill a spawn at all, it is acceptable to leave it behind (rather than leave it behind by poofing to the Fugue Plane), and with a dominated spawn you can even move it out of the way where passing adventurers are less likely to stumble on it. The cleaning script should get it eventually. You can also give a heads up on the DM channel; I believe some will take the time to clean spawns ahead of the script.

P.S. I also secretly love to OOC kill those annoying unrepresented NPCs. Somehow, they just keep respawning, though. ;D

[Lady Frost]

Mar 26, 2010 2:12:36 GMT -5 The Supreme Watcher said:

Mar 26, 2010 0:12:23 GMT -5 EDM Entori said:

(theres also the elf whos hidden in the tree)

Alright, so when you are being observed without knowing it: Should you still announce // ooc kill to the emptiness, or should the player watching from stealth interpret it as an ooc kill? There -are- spawns that are unavoidable, after all. All of this applies to Banites fighting the Zhentarim, Gruumsh half-orcs killing orc shamans, etc. etc. as well.

I try to annouce it anytime I kill something OOC. It rarely happens so its not a burden.

[soulfien]

knowing animals as well as I do....

Animals do not attack people without a VERY good reason. Most will avoid people at all costs yet not at the cost of their territory. If a druid takes an army of adventurers through the territory of a wolf pack containing a den of wolf pups, then the druid should fully expect the wolves to attack and the party to kill the wolves.

If we really want to be IC here, then the druid should never have taken the party there- or the ranger.

There are two reasons animals attack- Food and Protection. Either protecting themselves or their young or their mates or their pack (depending on type of animal- some will defend others in a pack and some won't)

Most adventurers aren't food for a normal animal so it's usually protection. That means there ain't nothing a druid or ranger can do to calm the animal and change its mind about wanting to kill the adventurers tromping through it's space. IC? Forget it. IC? The party is gonna kill it.

Now a druid or ranger alone can calm some natural animals easily enough, but NOT in a party. There aren't ooc kills in a party.

[Charon's Claw]

My own way that I RP it is that my character hurts them a bit, but they run away. In essence they're defeated because they "retreat". Just because the game engine is the way it is, it won't make things that have a shred of common sense retreat from an overwhelming situation, ssssooo.. the more sensible thing for a smart and well animal do is retreat when overwhelmed.

They're "defeated" so you're awarded your xp, and the animal still "lives".

[soulfien]

Another thing.... Why are we more concerned about the welfare of an animal than we are about the welfare of a human being?

For example.... A group of adventurers entered the Bramble where my druid Glenduil happened to be. The party killed the two bandits that spawned just as a black bear charged around the bend and headed towards them. Glenduil killed the bear before it reached the party (because it's easier to kill a charging bear than it is to right click a moving target and charm it).

One of the adventurers shouted out "Bear Killer!!"

Glenduil's response was "Bear killer? I just saw you slay two humans!"

Another adventurer stated "A common practice"

So umm.... yeah.
Kill a wolf and you get threatened. Kill a human and no one bats an eye. Unless you kill an adventurer in town- then it's suddenly murder. But then if someone brings an animal in town everyone says the animal must die...

So... I'm REALLY confused... In town, killing people is bad, but killing animals is good...

Outside of town, killing people is good, but killing animals is bad!

*brain explodes*

[anerwyn]

I tend to use the "knocks out animal" thing with Nadie. Sometimes I RP her moving the animal off the road so someone else doesn't come by and finish the job for her.

I have also killed an animal for food before too, though not enough drop raw meat. I usually emote KOing it or killing it for food. Unfortunately some parties won't wait for someone to field dress an animal.

Of course Nadie tells people that she prefers to KO them if she doesn't need food but she will kill something big and dangerous if she has too. This is like a dire bear or grizzly Nadie might be strong but those types of creatures might be a little too much to attempt KOing.

[dirtysloth]

*applauds Soulfiend's point *
animals come at us with aggression just as the humanoids
there should be no need to OOC kill an aggressive creature
non-aggressive creatures however need to be killed to keep the server clean OOC
so an OOC action for an OOC need may be appropriate

the deer south of greatgaunt have always made me uneasy
being 6-8 of them on the tile they need be cleaned
but in such a high traffic area you run the risk of being seen by tree hugers and entering a heated debate of why you believe you need to kill the deer
depending on how aggressive the tree huger is it could be fun RP or a start of unwanted PvP that results in a character's death

I don't like the OOC kills but for some it may be better suited to keep the server clean without hurting your character morals

though I was assuming the non threatening animals where added for the tree hugers to acquire needed meat and hides as they most generally provide for themselves and would likely take refuge in a cave than stay on a cot at the local inn growing fat on Sams Soup

[The Supreme Watcher]

Time to add another variable to the mix and continue discussion:

What about hunting? Hunting has always been an enjoyable pastime for the wealthy (something all adventurers undoubtedly are), and is a necessary and normal thing in Faerun. What is the community's stigma regarding hunting of animals?

My character Garum Glandash regularly enters the Hullack for no reason other than hunting boar. He does eat the food he gets from it (some day I plan on hosting a hunting trip and a barbecue), but he often kills much more than he alone can eat. I would like to sell this to innkeepers and restaurateurs but sadly you cannot.

On the question of killing humans (bandits): Playing a Paladin recently, I would prefer it if you -could- OOC kill these folks and 'bring them to justice.' However, my own personal opinions on OOC killing have always restricted me from that. Perhaps that will change, with this discussion. I do not believe there should be any social stigma attached to killing animals, however, for reasons others have stated: they are dangerous, they could potentially be diseased or deranged, and they might be damn tasty (alright that last one was mine).

[Lady Frost]

*spoken in general to the community*

I think with some of the obvious things common sense is needed.
Sure a paladin may not want to ruthlessly wander around killing bandits but it is still D&D and only so much can be done. Sometimes we just need to accept that the game was made to go around and kill things for experience and to take it away from that is sometimes quite difficult or nearly impossible.

[EDM Neo]

Mar 26, 2010 0:00:24 GMT -5 The Supreme Watcher said:

Question stands, as does the suggestion!

Not about you, Entori. Just something I always thought was icky, and finally had the gumption to post about.

As another addendum to the opening post: We are also encouraged to kill all spawns to prevent server lag. What does this mean for people that normally would not combat animals?

Mar 26, 2010 15:00:44 GMT -5 dirtysloth said:

*applauds Soulfiend's point *
animals come at us with aggression just as the humanoids
there should be no need to OOC kill an aggressive creature
non-aggressive creatures however need to be killed to keep the server clean OOC
so an OOC action for an OOC need may be appropriate

the deer south of greatgaunt have always made me uneasy
being 6-8 of them on the tile they need be cleaned
but in such a high traffic area you run the risk of being seen by tree hugers and entering a heated debate of why you believe you need to kill the deer
depending on how aggressive the tree huger is it could be fun RP or a start of unwanted PvP that results in a character's death

I don't like the OOC kills but for some it may be better suited to keep the server clean without hurting your character morals

though I was assuming the non threatening animals where added for the tree hugers to acquire needed meat and hides as they most generally provide for themselves and would likely take refuge in a cave than stay on a cot at the local inn growing fat on Sams Soup

I don't think it's really necessary to kill off every last deer you spawn. A DM can correct me if I'm wrong, but it probably really isn't even a hundred percent necessary to kill off each and every wolf or bear you spawn, if you expect doing it might get you killed or something, especially if it's a low traffic area.

We have cleanup scripts for a reason, after all. Yes, we're encouraged to and should clean up our spawns where we can, especially if there's reason to believe they might be dangerous for other PCs, but if it was expected that we'd never ever leave anything behind, we wouldn't have scripts to deal with it.

[megascorpion]

ow, I disagree with so much here

I think OOC killing is fine, for example, Siyl won't kill snakes, and will discourage everyone she's with to not do so. If the party sees snakes, she will hold them with hold monster, or if she's alone or with just a few, turn the party invisible. This would ICly let the party pass them without killing them. And is what I would have Siyl and the party do if it weren't for the rule to kill all spawns, so what I do is pass them to the point where we would have gotten away, and then go back to OOC kill them. Of course I have her avoid all places she knows there are snakes at, unless they're right on the road to somewhere at which she turns invisible and passes, and then I OOC kill them. If there were still a snake dungeon(And when there were) she wouldn't and never did go there.

There are five alternatives here, 1. Never have Siyl go somewhere where I OOCly know there are snakes. 2. Don't play a character who is opposed to killing anything that could spawn as hostile. 3. Kill them ICly anyways even though they could easily have been avoided, leaving my chars hypocrits and with moral traumas 5. Avoid them, and then go back to OOC kill them.

Note, I don't loot anything while doing this, and if there was a way to avoid xp for it I would. I don't see a problem with this, and yes, I always type "//OOC kill" for this even when it is only me there.


And an arguable difference between killing humans and animals is that animals don't have the intelligence or consciousness to know what they're doing. Either way I think this is more an IC thing than an OOC thing. If someone's char has an IC reason for not wanting violent bears killed but not caring if humans get killed, that's an IC thing.


I do also get annoyed by people who just run up to animals and go "//ooc kill" when ICly they would have no way at all to avoid them. I am also torn on the issue of people running up and 'knocking out' animals/bandits.. as well, trying to knock things out and not kill them is a lot harder than it sounds Especially if you're carrying a hammer/sword w/e...

From Dirty Sloth: "animals come at us with aggression just as the humanoids
there should be no need to OOC kill an aggressive creature"

...Even if your character would not kill it, and has turned themselves invisible so they could ICly get away..?

My chars all have things that they won't kill. Veshal won't run around and kill Banites for example, so he never goes to the places where they are. of course going there and OOC killing the lot, and taking the loot is not acceptable. Even without taking the loot it's not acceptable. Animals are generally right on the road to other places though. And of course having things that my chars won't kill cripples my characters xp and GP wise. I deal with it

On the matter of non-hostile creatures, I generally never touch them. They probably cause lagg to, like all NPC's in town do however, so I don't know what I should do without them, kind of makes me feel like OOC killing hostile things isn't really necessary and I might as well leave them However then there's also the issue of them killing some lower leveler of course.

...As for hunting, if there are militant vegetarians or w/e ..Why shouldn't they be allowed to be opposed to hunting?

[soulfien]

I'm just gonna throw this out there.... Bashing animals with your weapons to knock them out and then leaving them is umm.... bad for their health.

They may not recover and they may simply become a meal for something else... or in the battle, they may suffer such a wound that they suffer for quite a while because the bleeding heart adventurer that critically injured them felt that it would be more humane to leave them in agony than to outright kill them.

That's why my druid does NOT do OOC kills. He does not "knock them out". Also, it's really hard to chase off an animal from a place that's obviously its home if it has a nest or den or something.

If an animal runs out of its home and charges, then it's okay to "chase it off" back into its territory. But most of the time, I am going to have to face it. Animals were placed in this mod to me carnivorous human eaters by being made hostile so that's why I simply play it like such.

Now... it should also be noted that my druid does NOT go out of his way to harm animals. If a small circle of trees holds a bear spawn I'll never go in there with Glenduil. Now if I am caught doing that it means I had forgotten a bear was in there and now I must deal with it -- so if any DM's see me do that, then sorry for my forgetful nature

But, as far as the Bramblewood is concerned, I have tried, but I cannot find a path through that bypasses all of the animals.

[anerwyn]

I don't see a problem with KOing an animal. Nadie doesn't usually run in to areas where animals would spawn anyways. Tho only animals I end up having to take down are right on the road.

Of course having an animal spawn right on the road strikes me as odd in and of itself. Animals are not stupid as we'd like to believe. Animals know that the flat place with the weird ditches are where people walk and people means stuff that can hurt them. Taking everyday life for example, even bears, leave humans alone because it has been proven that humans are dangerous.

As far as I have researched there is only one animal that actually stalks humans and that's not even adults. As for the need for food or protection most animals would rather hide or sneak around to avoid humans, even if they are hungry or need to protect something.

Wolf packs avoid humans who are walking in their territories and so on.

I've had nadie "KO" animals before by hitting the animals unarmed too. Nadie is strong enough to KO a larger animal but there is a limit to her power as well, size is a factor, the large wolves in the hullack are good examples. I don't think Nadie could actually KO those with a fist so she uses the flat of her axe. of course, as stated in my previous post, I do actually RP nadie having to kill a huge animal like a dire bear or grizzly as I can't really think of a way that she could physically KO them, yet.

Now, as for the deer, I always thought the deer spawned on the NPC spawning script not a trigger. I only see 2 deer at any given time and it's remained that way since I started.

[soulfien]

I've seen up to 6 deer south of what is now Greatgaunt.

The only time my druid got involved was when 2 players had a campfire set up and were killing deer after deer after deer after deer and cooking up the meat.... this went on for over 30 minutes that I observed and my druid gave them two warnings before calling his hawk and having it start pecking at one of their faces. They packed up and left.

Those deer are really great xp and easy kills for a lvl 1 though

As far as hunting? Glenduil is an elf... Don't know if anyone here knows that. And being an elf, he needs to eat. Animals taste good. He will sometimes fish (which is catching and killing an animal by the way) and hunt boar and deer for food.

[liamofwaterdeep]

I don't think I've ever seen someone kill Farmer Goodman and his Chickens and say ooc kill.

[archangel00]

So...why not just set bears and wolves to non-hostile?

[gainreduction]

It's stupid to just leave spawns there.

I'm all for chasing the wolves off (and killing them oocly)

[The Flying Ve]

Mar 26, 2010 23:02:02 GMT -5 liamofwaterdeep said:

I don't think I've ever seen someone kill Farmer Goodman and his Chickens and say ooc kill.

;D Well, next time, he should be less protective of his chickens....

[dirtysloth]

as we all know there are many unrepresented NPCs
as such you must imagine there are likely unrepresented animals
the ones you don't see are those scared timid ones you think they all should be
the ones you do see are not hiding
likely because they are hungry
and there are many many tales of attacks on people from hungry animals of all sorts (due to the no rape rule monkeys where removed from the server)

if you know your coming to an area with an animal you don't wish to kill why not stop to "adjust your bootstraps" or whatever excuse you can think of to allow the group to go ahead
and catch up just in time to RP the devastation of how you may have been able to prevent the slaughter if you hadn't stopped to do whatever
(this way the group gets the XP and loot then your the only one that misses out due to your RP characteristics)