Merchants Are Not Stupid

[Rook]

Several times lately I've seen someone walk up to a merchant, drink a Fox's potion, and then begin bartering. Since I haven't been playing a lot lately I'm inclined to think this is happening quite often. If I was on as a DM instead of as a player I would possess the NPC, chew the PC out for trying to cheat him (or her) out of coin, and then refuse to deal with the PC.

Merchants are not stupid. They've been dealing with adventurers long enough to know the effects of these potions. The same goes for spells. They may not have enough spellcraft skill points to know what spell you just cast, but they are suspicious enough not to trust that it was for their benefit.

I'm not saying you can't use a Fox's potion before bartering with a merchant. It's a smart thing to do if you think a one or two point gain in appraise will pay off over the cost of the potion. I'm just asking that you be discreet about it. Do it around the corner of a building or far down the street so the merchant doesn't know you are magically enhanced.

Some of you may think this is being nit-picky. For me it shows who thinks about actually "living" in the world of FRC versus someone who is just playing the numbers. It's the difference between thinking of merchants as real people rather than an appraise score to beat.

[The Flying Ve]

Mar 23, 2010 9:21:10 GMT -5 Rook said:

Several times lately I've seen someone walk up to a merchant, drink a Fox's potion, and then begin bartering. Since I haven't been playing a lot lately I'm inclined to think this is happening quite often. If I was on as a DM instead of as a player I would possess the NPC, chew the PC out for trying to cheat him (or her) out of coin, and then refuse to deal with the PC.

QFT. Certain merchants may also respond in a more unpleasant manner, come to think. Same goes for people bringing their own food and drink to inns, incidentally. The taverns are not empty when no PCs are there and if a paying guest wants your seat while you have neither food nor drink, the typical response in my experience is to be asked to leave.

The apparent problem is that in the past, there have been different responses from DMs on emoting how an NPC would likely react to a given situation. I personally greatly appreciate folk emoting NPCs, even and especially unseen ones. I think it adds to the flavour of the world. Getting hammered for it leads to less of this however, and thus ultimately to many seeing the NPCs as "shops" rather than possible aids to RP.

This also leads to characters frequenting areas they would simply /not/ be allowed in, f.ex., into the back halls of the temple of Hoar in VR as a blatant non-Hoarite or other places where I can just say "oh dear" and shake my head, like elves having "secret meetings" in the back room of the Obscene Ogre; the blood drenched place with half orc bouncers, ya know? And that nifty little dialogue they got...This is not a go against elves in general, by the way. Merely an example which may not even have actually happened. Call it a horror scenario

[megascorpion]

hum, there are two problems here, what is IC, and the, if you raise your appraise score you get another roll for the merchant exploit...

I don't know how much the first part is actually a problem, unless the merchant is a crook... Take the appraise gloves for example, according to their description, they let you 'feel' better, so that you can better judge the quality of items... For a merchant to throw someone out because they want to estimate a things worth would just be absurd imho... Exploiting the new roll each time appraise is raised is bad though I think hehe.

However the issue was with potions... What is it that they actually do? I'd say they let you estimate prices better, become more certain of them and so give you an advantage. I'd think it weird for an honest merchant((If you'd say there is such a thing... But Cormyr being generally LG, I'd say there should be a few...)) to deny such...

On that note however, the two PC's I have that actually bother casting spells to barter I generally do cast the spells away from the shopkeepers, since it'd still feel really weird to walk up to a shopkeeper, ask him to wait while you cast a few spells and drink a few potions... Spells specifically as has been said, they don't have enough spellcraft and if it is GG or some place like that which regularly has murders and the like, I'm guessing the merchant would shrug back and get really suspicious...

And yes, my chars have complained to others who've brought their own food and drink before, Veshal even bought water from the innkeepers even though he can just as well create them himself, just to be a fair and good human

While we're on the topic, can people please stop walking into Garrots to change clothes? He must be horrified at the number of adventurers running in there, getting naked and then dressing themselves again... That goes for all places where there'd be people coming through regularly... None of these really destroy RP for me or anything I just think they're a bit weird/fun

[summer]

I think Dm rook makes a great point and even though might not be in game as much I agree that happens alot right in front of the merchant. I have different color robes for the banking attire and was told that hey make them same then when switch it not so noticable easy. I made them totally different to each other o make sure they were noticablely different.

I agree think I have done it myself drank a potion when I find one and go to the merchant. So good point of forgetten immension to remember to do. So thanks for the point and helps improve the roleplay.

summer

[Munroe]

I agree completely about the drinking of potions. A merchant might not know what a potion does, but they know the intent is to help someone squeeze more money from them, or buy things for less.

As for things like the back room at the Temple of Hoar, there's no sign up that says "Hoarites only." If there were, most people wouldn't go back there (with the exception of some chaotics and otherwise curious folks).

I agree completely about changing in Garrot's. That doesn't make sense to me. If I change clothes, I'll go to an inn room, to the conference room in the inn if it's not in use, to the barracks, or, if it's not in use, occasionally I'll go to the merchant building. It is nearby and has a sign outside noting whether it's in use for business, so the chance of running into "invisible NPCs" (I really dislike invisible NPCs, btw) is pretty slim. If a PC merchant happens to walk in on my character while she's changing, that will be interesting.

I was going to comment on another point, but I'm having trouble remembering what it was.

Oh yeah, as for bringing your own food or drink into an inn, if I plan to eat food from another establishment, sometimes I'll pay for a room. Other times I take my chances and worry about getting a room if the innkeeper says something.

[soulfien]

On that note, why not make the merchant insist that the wizard or rogue not be the one they deal with. that way they can continue to sucker the fighter or druid by offering 3 gold for something that's worth 1200.

The merchants here are crooks and if they get bent out of shape because someone employs something that will give them an edge towards honesty then that's their issue.

That's how I feel about it. Though if the merchant wishes to raise hell because I walk up in a banker's outfit and run my gloved hands over each item while bartering then it's up to him.

But I certainly don't see it as my pc's trying to cheat him... it's more along the lines of preventing being cheated.

Also, going by this logic, I don't think any merchant would be dealing with Mouse anymore.

[The Flying Ve]

Mar 23, 2010 13:47:37 GMT -5 @soulfien said:

On that note, why not make the merchant insist that the wizard or rogue not be the one they deal with. that way they can continue to sucker the fighter or druid by offering 3 gold for something that's worth 1200.

For one, that is more often than not metagaming on part of the NPCs.

[soulfien]

umm... how could that possibly be metagaming?

The whole point of an appraise skill is to know the worth of something and I don't think it's a far stretch for a merchant who's in the trade to know the worth of something so ...... how on earth is it metagaming to offer a very small amount of coin for something that can be sold again for much much much more?

Or how can it be metagaming to know that a necklace of intelligence that sells for 6,000 gold in stores is only getting you 120 gold from a merchant?

Who said anything about metagaming?

[The Flying Ve]

Knowing a PC's class levels=metagaming. Being addressed as "rogue" or "wizard" f.ex., when dressed like a completely normal person, is irksome and unless I'm the uber-epic mage-of-great-reknown or regularly walk by the merchant in my shiny, starry robes, I don't see how the merchant would know. Even and especially NPCs should follow the rules, IMO.

edit for people who have difficulty reading.

[soulfien]

Hmm... once again, I'll say that seeing the man in robes carrying the glowing staff is a wizard...

If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and feels like a duck, it's not metagaming. Ever.

I know you like tossing that word around, but it's not always the case.

Rogues are the ones dressed in light leather or cloth carrying the twin daggers or shortswords at her hip.

Also, by the way they barter, it can be quickly made obvious how educated they are. That's nto metagaming. Oh and another thing... if you constantly deal with the same merchant over and over throughout the years, he's going to know right off the bat that you're not going to let him cheat you?

See? this is why I hate dealing with people who play PC's who like to be secretive... it's not always metagaming.

[Deleted]

Locking this thread before it becomes a flame war. *clink*

I think Rooks statement was pretty much valid, and to the point. I am not sure we need to argue the specifics of it. Just use common sense.