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Post by simondelsolis on Mar 22, 2010 11:37:41 GMT -5
I'd like a rational understanding why a Ranger that later feels the call to Paladinhood must be forced to choose a different deity than the one selected upon character Creation.
Working under the character concept Hunter of the Dead, I started with Ranger levels. Given Lathanders penchant against Undead and I like that diety I chose that upon creation.
Was later told "you can't do that. Rangers of Lathander can't become paladins. YOu have to shift your diety to Torm." I did that thinking it was because of the Temple Store goodies, which makes sense from a "Server Balance" concept.
However, I couldn't justify changing Dieties for RP purposes.
My argument is as follows. According to the players Handbook 3.0 page 41 under Background.
"No one chooses to be a paladin. Becomming one is answering a call, accepting one's destiny. No one, no matter how diligent can become a paladin through practice. The nature is either wihin one or not, and it is not possible to gain the paladin's nature by act of will. It is possible to fail to recognize one's own potential or to deny one's destiny. Some who are called to be paladins deny the call and pursue some other life instead."
"Most paladins answer the call and begin training as Adolescents. Typically they become squires or assistants to experienced paladins, train for years and finally set off on their own to further the acauses of good and law. Other Paladins however find their calling only later in life after having pursued some other career."
Religion: Pg 41 PHP 3.0. Paladins need not devote themselves to a single diety. Devotion to righteousness is enough for most. Those who align themselves with particular religions prefer Heironeous, god of Valor over all others, but some paladins follow Pelor, the sun god. Paladins devoted to a god are scrupulous in observing religious duties and are welcome in every associated temple.
Rangers and religion: pg 44 php vs 3.0. "Though Rangers gain their divine spells from the power of nature, like anyone else they may worship a chosen diety. Ehlonna, goddess of the woodlands and Obad-Hai, god of nature, are the most comond deities among them, though some rangers prefer more martial deities.
Hunters of the Dead: Defenders of the Faith pg 62.
Most Hunters of the Dead are Paladins or Clerics. Fighters rangers monks druids and barbarians make excellent Hunters of the Dead.
Special requirement: Ability to Turn Undead.
Feats that close fit Paladin - Smite Undead - Can fit Smite Evil from Paladin. Divine Might also can be used to simulate this feat.
So while I could see where a Cleric of Lathander may take Ranger Levels to learn how to Hunt the Undead, and how a Paladin may take Ranger Levels to learn to Hunt Undead.....The rules on which the NWN is founded and the world of Forgotten Realms was created is based, there are no indications amongst my possessions to indicate a Paladin cannot feel the calling late in life, Simon does have Grey in his hair.
So can someone provide a logical answer to counter the information quoted from official published source books that allows a Ranger to worship any god he chooses and that says a Paladin cannot heed the call later in life after a time spent as a hunter/ranger?
I know some say paladins are "Knights" I tried to RP Simon was not so much a Paladin but a Hunter of the Dead. So another Paladin would recognize his zeal if you will, but Simon would not could not be considered a "Knight" of holy orders.
Simply added the DM Q&A to avoid any further confusion. - DM Aodhan
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Post by Munroe on Mar 22, 2010 11:53:51 GMT -5
FRC is set in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has paladin multi-classing by paladin order. These orders are enforced on FRC. You can see the list of paladin orders here: frc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=lore&action=display&thread=1804These orders are campaign-specific and supersede the information on paladin multi-classing presented in the Player's Handbook. And now for my contribution ;D Enjoy! Paladin Orders
The following table lists other known holy orders of paladins, the deity they hold as a patron, and the character classes open to paladins of that order for the purpose of multiclassing freely (orders of paladins that do not allow multiclassing freely, such as the Swords of the High One--paladins of Azuth--are not listed). Some deities have more than one associated order of paladins; these are listed sequentially. Not all paladins have to be associated with an order, but only those that are part of an order can multiclass freely. Other lawful good, lawful neutral, and neutral good deities that are not listed here can have paladins, but there are no known paladin orders for those faiths (in effect, paladins of those faiths are uncommon enough that rarely are there enough to band together and form an order). |
| Deity | Name of Paladin Order | Allowed Classes | Description | | Arvoreen | Arvoreen‘s Marchers | Cleric, Fighter, Rogue | An order in Tethyr recognized by the crown, they are highly respected by local humans and halflings alike. Their chapterhouse is called Keeperstone. | | Baravar Cloakshadow | Knights of the Shadowy Cloak | Cleric, Fighter, Illusionist, Rogue | This order keeps a low profile in gnome communities and seeks to eliminate goblinoids, kobolds, and other evil humanoids, for these creatures cannot be redeemed. They work secretly so as to not attract attention or retaliation to local gnome communities. | | Berronar Truesilver | Berronar’s Valkyries | Cleric, Dwarven Defender | This order is exclusively female. They observe battles until they see a group of allies in particular danger, at which point they charge in to help. Most favor training involving mobility in battle. | | Chauntea | Field Guardians | Cleric, Divine Champion | As described in the FRCS | | Gaerdal Ironhand | Shields of the Golden Hills | Cleric, Fighter | They are a strictly organized order dedicated to defending gnome communities against any attackers and serving as officers and champions of larger gnome military assemblies. | | Helm | Vigilant Eyes of the God | arcane devotee, cleric, fighter, divine champion, Purple Dragon knight. | As described in the FRCS | | Horus-Re | Claws of the Sun and the Ankh | Cleric, Divine Champion, Divine Disciple, Hierophant | Caring little for day-to-day politics, this relatively new order spends most of its time fighting servants of Set (or even Anhur, when he has been causing trouble). | | Ilmater | 1) Order of the Golden Cup.
2) Companions of the Noble Heart. | 1) Cleric, Divine Disciple, Hierophant.
2) Divine Champion, Fighter. | 1) This order is dedicated to healing and protecting the sick, innocent, and weak, rather than seeking out evil to destroy. They are not opposed to such actions, but see their role as something different.
2) The Companions are the aggressive counterparts to the Golden Cup, for they are tasked with eliminating the cruel and those who are known to enjoy the torture and suffering others. The church of Loviatar is their greatest enemy. | | Kelemvor | Knights of the Eternal Order | Cleric, Doomguide | This is a recently-created order, founded to seek out and destroy powerful undead that tax the powers of the normal branches of the church. | | Lathander | Order of the Aster | Cleric, Divine Champion, Divine Disciple, Hierophant, Purple Dragon knight | As described in the FRCS | | Milil | Harmonious Order | Fighter | This group of personable and swaggering paladins encourages bards (whom they tolerate despite alignment differences) to accompany them to create ballads based on their exploits. Their role is to guard Milil’s churches and do good works in Milil’s name. | | Moradin | Hammers of Moradin | Cleric, Fighter, Divine Champion, Dwarven Defender, Runecaster | As described in the FRCS | | Mystra | Knights of the Mystic Fire | Guild Wizard of Waterdeep, Wizard | This group of paladins often accompanies other members of the church on quests to locate lost hoards of ancient magic. The church draws upon their ranks for the leaders of temple guardians. | | Nobanion | Legion of Lions (wemics & werelions only) | Cleric, Divine Champion | Founded shortly after the Time of Troubles, this fellowship exists to protect good-aligned monsters and slay the servants of Malar. | | Osiris | Order of the Risen Scepter | Cleric, Ranger | Drawn exclusively from those who have died in combat with servants of Set and been raised from the dead (sometimes spontaneously by the power of Osiris), they are primarily hunters of Set’s minions. | | Red Knight | Order of the Red Falcon | Divine Champion, Fighter | Housed in the Citadel of Strategic Militancy (northeast of Baldur’s Gate), this small order has a history of triumphing in the face of overwhelming odds. They train officers and others in tactics and military history. | | Siamorphe | Order of the Silver Chalice | Aristocrat, Fighter | This group is primarily Tethyrian nobles dedicated to locating lost members of noble families and restoring to power those who will govern with the interests of the common people at heart. After several years of debate, they have decided to support the queen of Tethyr, and the crown recognizes them as a knightly order. | | Sune | Sisters and Brothers of the Ruby Rose | Divine Champions | As described in the FRCS | | Torm | Order of the Golden Lion | Any one other class | As described in the FRCS | | Tyr | 1) Knights of Holy Judgment.
2) Knights of the Merciful Sword. | 1) Cleric, Divine Champion.
2) Fighter, Divine Champion. | 1) This order focuses on the more lawful aspects of Tyr’s philosophy, and hunts and punishes criminals and lawbreakers, particularly devils (seen as abhorrent perversions of lawful society).
2) This order is focuses on upholding good in the world as defined by Tyr, and slays all kinds of evil monsters, particularly demons. | | Yondalla | 1) Shields of Yondalla.
2) Wayward Wardens. | 1) Monk (Hin Fist).
2) Cleric, Ranger. | 1) As described in the FRCS.
2) This group is a loose fellowship of wandering halflings who feel the need to see the world and aren’t tied to any particular settlement. They protect halfling communities whenever they are found in need of help. |
 //From the FRCS, pg. 26 |
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Post by simondelsolis on Mar 22, 2010 12:32:35 GMT -5
Simon Does not and has not pretended to be a member of the Order of Astor. He simply refers to himself as a Hunter of the Dead.
Worshiping a Diety does not imply a Hierarchial placement within the church. The RP of the Character is HUNTER of the DEAD not a Paladin of Lathander.
Your table does not preclude the idea someone may recognize the calling to Paladin hood later in life. Again....Simon is older..not a wet behind the ears teenager.
Furthermore to justify Hunter of the Dead concept....Simon HAS suffered the level drain that is required to become a hunter of the undead.
Simply put a focus in Ranger or Paladin would be a more powerful character than a split class. at 5/5 Simon could niether turn undead effectively nor call upon pet to assist.
Spell progression was such that Simon was not yet able to 2nd level spells from either class..again further limiting the power of the character. Couldn't cast Cats Grace for better AC, nor Bull Str to hit creatures harder, nor even Eagles splendor to improve the divine damage of Divine Might.
So I still don't see why someone whose spent a life in the wilderness cannot later acknowledge and accept the calling to paladinhood.
I got slapped because I had the temerity to actually RP worshiping Lathander. If I'd kept my trap shut and didn't RP YOU would not have bothered to pull the 7 levels from Simon.
The lesson I learned today is probably not the lesson you wanted to teach. RP is more likely to get you killed, DeLeveled and put in jail.
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Post by highknight on Mar 22, 2010 13:44:03 GMT -5
The Ranger -can- hear and accept the Paladin's call... ...by rerolling and restarting as a Paladin. You were not punished for worshiping Lathander. You were deleveled to allow you to continue using your Undead Hunter of the Morninglord concept while staying true to the rules and such of FRC. And, in the future, please begin each Q&A post with "DM Q&A: <Question>"  |
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Post by iangallowglas on Mar 22, 2010 13:47:11 GMT -5
I know this was painful and I'm not trying to be-little the experience having gone through something similar when I first played here, but the lesson everyone should learn is that players need to read the forums before they start making characters and playing on the server. Also feel free to ask Player Advocates and Dms questions after you've started.
Sorry feel free to delete this, didn't realize it was a DM Q& A.
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Post by The Flying Ve on Mar 22, 2010 14:00:06 GMT -5
The solution to your problem is simple and the same one I chose for Ra'ven as her PnP build is illegal on FRC.
Instead of paladin, take divine champion(Champion of Torm). They have similar abilities. If you wish, supplement with cleric. Simple as that.
Edit: What ian said x.x
Note to self- learn to read threads.
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Post by simondelsolis on Mar 22, 2010 14:35:23 GMT -5
Since I'm the apparent Minority or others are afraid to speak up for fear of repercussions how about a compromise. Since Ranger/Paladin is NOT an Illegal build so to speak, just Illegal to not have the Appropriate diety. And Seeing as it's apparently legal for Paladins take level in Rogue if you worship the correct diety.  Is there a LAW that counter to PHP, Requiring a Paladin and or a Ranger to worship a diety? I mean the easiest thing for me to do is take a level in Paladin, RP the belief the Gods are selfish Powergrabbing entities that are not worthy of worship. |
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Post by simondelsolis on Mar 22, 2010 14:40:11 GMT -5
The solution to your problem is simple and the same one I chose for Ra'ven as her PnP build is illegal on FRC. Instead of paladin, take divine champion(Champion of Torm). They have similar abilities. If you wish, supplement with cleric. Simple as that. Edit: What ian said x.x Note to self- learn to read threads. Actually, CoT does not Have the Ability to Turn Undead. thus limiting THAT particular portion of the Hunter of Dead concept. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 16:22:13 GMT -5
Since I'm the apparent Minority or others are afraid to speak up for fear of repercussions how about a compromise. Since Ranger/Paladin is NOT an Illegal build so to speak, just Illegal to not have the Appropriate diety. And Seeing as it's apparently legal for Paladins take level in Rogue if you worship the correct diety. Is there a LAW that counter to PHP, Requiring a Paladin and or a Ranger to worship a diety? I mean the easiest thing for me to do is take a level in Paladin, RP the belief the Gods are selfish Powergrabbing entities that are not worthy of worship. Rangers in FR are required to worship, and have a patron, who is a nature deity in order to be granted their divine spells. Paladins in FR must have a patron deity as far as I know, I suppose I could dig out FR references on this if you wish. |
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Post by Munroe on Mar 22, 2010 16:40:25 GMT -5
All divine spellcasters must have a patron deity in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.
From the paladin entry, FRCS page 25:
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Post by simondelsolis on Mar 23, 2010 10:07:19 GMT -5
I'm under the impression there is no reason against a Ranger from Worshiping Lathander Right?
Lathander does have Paladins. Lathander does have a sphere influence in nature, God of Spring, Dawn, Conception, Vitality, Eternal Youth, Renewal, self perfection, and Beginnings. It makes since for some Rangers to revere Lathander.
If that is the case..and a Ranger spends some several years in his profession as a Ranger, worshiping the God of Spring, Lathander and later in life he realizes the calling to Paladinhood; How then do we justify changing religions?
I can't very well see a man happy in his reverence to Lathander changing dieties because the Paladins of the Order won't like he didnt start as a squire to some knight first.
As I said, I thought the primary reason for the require to switch to Torm was for game Balance due to the Temple Stores..in which case I support and endorse.
However, I cannot logically see how a man or woman would change his patron saint just because he felt a calling to holy orders.
Would a devout Christian change to Muslim or vice versus just because they changed jobs? Not bloody likely. Would a Hindu Worshiper changed to Christianity just because he left India to work in the Medical field in the U.S.? Again not likely.
Another factor to consider. to become a Ranger actually requires training. More skills to learn. Tracking, listening, moving silently, animal friendship and more.
If Paladin can take Ranger levels later, why cannot a Ranger take Paladin levels later? Especially considering the number of"non magical" skills and feats used by rangers.
I'm not opposed to compromise. Seeing at the Phrase "Freely Multiclass" That doesn't say it cannot be done, there are stipulations to allowing it. For instance, I could agree that if a Ranger answered the call to Paladinhood..if he reverted back leveling as a ranger then he could no longer advance as a Paladin.
THAT can be logically argued. As a Paladin gains experience, he must be taught the higher mysteries, and the Church Hiearchy may see the fellow as not having strong enough dedication to the work.
I can agree it "Requires a steady heart" to be a Paladin. Not allowing multiclassing freely due to religious constraints, that too I can buy.
I think we have an difference in opinion on Interpretation. Freely means without price or consequence. For instance a Paladin/Cleric of Tyr can alternate when they increase specific classes without preconditions. So I can agree that if a Ranger of Lathander later in life chose to accept the path of paladinhood and later reverts back to Ranger he will be unable to advance further as a Paladin or some other condition is met.
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Post by summer on Mar 23, 2010 12:05:47 GMT -5
Really this post should be a message to a dm's box if wish to get something CHANGED that is what asking not debating what is there asking for something to be changed. Seems the policy is there already so if they decided and commented on it not being changed then that way it going to stand. The dms and admins get burnt out with the why can'ts and what ifs. I play monk sure like to be a paladin too or rdd or something but for most part there reason you can't balance or abuse of multi classing in the past that regulates why the answer is no. If can not use a different class to do same thing and roleplay that you are an undead hunter what is difference? A fighter rogue plays an assassin role all the time not assassin class persay but they call themselves assassin.
Why do not have blue dwarves running about or goblin children or vampire babies as characters.
Next
Summer
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2010 14:14:49 GMT -5
I'm under the impression there is no reason against a Ranger from Worshiping Lathander Right? Lathander does have Paladins. Lathander does have a sphere influence in nature, God of Spring, Dawn, Conception, Vitality, Eternal Youth, Renewal, self perfection, and Beginnings. It makes since for some Rangers to revere Lathander. If that is the case..and a Ranger spends some several years in his profession as a Ranger, worshiping the God of Spring, Lathander and later in life he realizes the calling to Paladinhood; How then do we justify changing religions? I can't very well see a man happy in his reverence to Lathander changing dieties because the Paladins of the Order won't like he didnt start as a squire to some knight first. As I said, I thought the primary reason for the require to switch to Torm was for game Balance due to the Temple Stores..in which case I support and endorse. However, I cannot logically see how a man or woman would change his patron saint just because he felt a calling to holy orders. Would a devout Christian change to Muslim or vice versus just because they changed jobs? Not bloody likely. Would a Hindu Worshiper changed to Christianity just because he left India to work in the Medical field in the U.S.? Again not likely. Another factor to consider. to become a Ranger actually requires training. More skills to learn. Tracking, listening, moving silently, animal friendship and more. If Paladin can take Ranger levels later, why cannot a Ranger take Paladin levels later? Especially considering the number of"non magical" skills and feats used by rangers. I'm not opposed to compromise. Seeing at the Phrase "Freely Multiclass" That doesn't say it cannot be done, there are stipulations to allowing it. For instance, I could agree that if a Ranger answered the call to Paladinhood..if he reverted back leveling as a ranger then he could no longer advance as a Paladin. THAT can be logically argued. As a Paladin gains experience, he must be taught the higher mysteries, and the Church Hiearchy may see the fellow as not having strong enough dedication to the work. I can agree it "Requires a steady heart" to be a Paladin. Not allowing multiclassing freely due to religious constraints, that too I can buy. I think we have an difference in opinion on Interpretation. Freely means without price or consequence. For instance a Paladin/Cleric of Tyr can alternate when they increase specific classes without preconditions. So I can agree that if a Ranger of Lathander later in life chose to accept the path of paladinhood and later reverts back to Ranger he will be unable to advance further as a Paladin or some other condition is met. I am pretty confident in saying that 'freely multiclassing' means that you can for instance, take a paladin level, then a monk level for instance, and then another paladin level, provided your paladin order allows monk as a multiclass option. If you -cannot- freely multiclass (as in the case of a paladin who does not belong to a paladin order, such as the one you are proposing), then you could only for instance, having begun as a ranger, then take paladin levels. Taking further ranger levels -after- you had taken that first paladin level would cause you to immediately forgo the ability to take any more paladin levels. I am pretty sure I am correct on this but I am on my lunch break and lacking the time to look this up. I'll check this thread after work and see if someone has clarified further. My current interpretation of the rules, and not the opinion of the entire team necessarily, is that you are allowed to become a paladin of lathander, but you cannot freely multiclass with ranger. So if you take a paladin level..you need to stay a paladin and not take more ranger, or other class levels, aside from paladin levels. Otherwise I think you either become an ex-paladin, or just lose the ability to take more paladin levels. |
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Post by simondelsolis on Mar 23, 2010 21:46:31 GMT -5
[ I am pretty confident in saying that 'freely multiclassing' means that you can for instance, take a paladin level, then a monk level for instance, and then another paladin level, provided your paladin order allows monk as a multiclass option. If you -cannot- freely multiclass (as in the case of a paladin who does not belong to a paladin order, such as the one you are proposing), then you could only for instance, having begun as a ranger, then take paladin levels. Taking further ranger levels -after- you had taken that first paladin level would cause you to immediately forgo the ability to take any more paladin levels. I am pretty sure I am correct on this but I am on my lunch break and lacking the time to look this up. I'll check this thread after work and see if someone has clarified further. My current interpretation of the rules, and not the opinion of the entire team necessarily, is that you are allowed to become a paladin of lathander, but you cannot freely multiclass with ranger. So if you take a paladin level..you need to stay a paladin and not take more ranger, or other class levels, aside from paladin levels. Otherwise I think you either become an ex-paladin, or just lose the ability to take more paladin levels. Thank you DM High Herald. I have no problem with the concept of not being able to freely switch back and forth between Paladin and Ranger. Once Simon returned to Ranger, he could never again progress as a Paladin. The character concept being a Hunter of the Dead, not a "True" Paladin. I'd planned on taking favored Enemy Outsider too. Another item that should fit Lathander seeing the spheres of Lathander are Sun and Good. |
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Post by Munroe on Mar 24, 2010 10:47:49 GMT -5
Thank you DM High Herald. I have no problem with the concept of not being able to freely switch back and forth between Paladin and Ranger. Once Simon returned to Ranger, he could never again progress as a Paladin. The character concept being a Hunter of the Dead, not a "True" Paladin. I'd planned on taking favored Enemy Outsider too. Another item that should fit Lathander seeing the spheres of Lathander are Sun and Good. IF YOU TAKE PALADIN LEVELS, YOU ARE A PALADIN. There is no taking paladin levels on FRC without being a paladin. If you have paladin levels, you are playing a paladin. It is not available to substitute for other classes. Taking the first level of paladin has the same restriction as taking any other level of paladin. For instance, if you are a paladin that cannot multiclass freely, and if you are paladin 1 then take ranger 1, you cannot take any more paladin levels. Now, let's say you're ranger 1. You want to take paladin 1, with no declared order (therefore cannot multiclass freely). Why would you be able to take paladin 1 then? You're effectively ranger 1/paladin 0. You don't qualify to take another paladin level under the paladin multiclassing restriction. Paladin 1 is no different from any other paladin level. If you wouldn't qualify for paladin 2, then you wouldn't qualify for paladin 1. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2010 13:25:50 GMT -5
Thank you DM High Herald. I have no problem with the concept of not being able to freely switch back and forth between Paladin and Ranger. Once Simon returned to Ranger, he could never again progress as a Paladin. The character concept being a Hunter of the Dead, not a "True" Paladin. I'd planned on taking favored Enemy Outsider too. Another item that should fit Lathander seeing the spheres of Lathander are Sun and Good. IF YOU TAKE PALADIN LEVELS, YOU ARE A PALADIN. There is no taking paladin levels on FRC without being a paladin. If you have paladin levels, you are playing a paladin. It is not available to substitute for other classes. Taking the first level of paladin has the same restriction as taking any other level of paladin. For instance, if you are a paladin that cannot multiclass freely, and if you are paladin 1 then take ranger 1, you cannot take any more paladin levels. Now, let's say you're ranger 1. You want to take paladin 1, with no declared order (therefore cannot multiclass freely). Why would you be able to take paladin 1 then? You're effectively ranger 1/paladin 0. You don't qualify to take another paladin level under the paladin multiclassing restriction. Paladin 1 is no different from any other paladin level. If you wouldn't qualify for paladin 2, then you wouldn't qualify for paladin 1. Munroe, is this standard PnP and/or FR rules? Or is this FRC rules only? I am just wondering if I have been in the wrong in PNP rules in regards to FR for awhile now. |
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Post by simondelsolis on Mar 25, 2010 7:19:51 GMT -5
FRC is set in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has paladin multi-classing by paladin order. These orders are enforced on FRC. You can see the list of paladin orders here: frc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=lore&action=display&thread=1804These orders are campaign-specific and supersede the information on paladin multi-classing presented in the Player's Handbook. And now for my contribution ;D Enjoy! Paladin Orders
The following table lists other known holy orders of paladins, the deity they hold as a patron, and the character classes open to paladins of that order for the purpose of multiclassing freely (orders of paladins that do not allow multiclassing freely, such as the Swords of the High One--paladins of Azuth--are not listed). Some deities have more than one associated order of paladins; these are listed sequentially.
Not all paladins have to be associated with an order, but only those that are part of an order can multiclass freely.
Other lawful good, lawful neutral, and neutral good deities that are not listed here can have paladins, but there are no known paladin orders for those faiths (in effect, paladins of those faiths are uncommon enough that rarely are there enough to band together and form an order). |
When I started this thread I asked So far no one has been able to reference any source that says it's illegal to have a Ranger of Lathander that later chooses to succumb to fate and become a Paladin. Other than Alignment restrictions the only restricted class for Paladins I've found ANYWHERE is the Sorc/Pal combination. Again I ask for a reference that outlaws Rangers becoming Paladins. The reference to Paladin Orders list those that allow multiclassing without preconditions. It does NOT say any other combination of Paladin is Illegal. A Ranger can worship Lathander. That's been established. A Cleric of Lathander can later become a Paladin, later advance cleric and later still advance Paladin under the Order of Aster. This too has been established. Again There is NO indication anywhere on any website on FRC or anywhere else to indicate Lawful Good Rangers of Lathander can Never be Paladins of Lathander. If someone can LOGICALLY present a case why a Ranger of Lathander cannot LATER become a Paladin of Lathander; I'll shut up. So far all I've seen is references that LIMIT Multiclassing Freely. nothing that says specifically, it is an impossibility, like Paladin/Sorcerer for game balance. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2010 11:22:14 GMT -5
FRC is set in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has paladin multi-classing by paladin order. These orders are enforced on FRC. You can see the list of paladin orders here: frc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=lore&action=display&thread=1804These orders are campaign-specific and supersede the information on paladin multi-classing presented in the Player's Handbook. When I started this thread I asked So far no one has been able to reference any source that says it's illegal to have a Ranger of Lathander that later chooses to succumb to fate and become a Paladin. Other than Alignment restrictions the only restricted class for Paladins I've found ANYWHERE is the Sorc/Pal combination. Again I ask for a reference that outlaws Rangers becoming Paladins. The reference to Paladin Orders list those that allow multiclassing without preconditions. It does NOT say any other combination of Paladin is Illegal. A Ranger can worship Lathander. That's been established. A Cleric of Lathander can later become a Paladin, later advance cleric and later still advance Paladin under the Order of Aster. This too has been established. Again There is NO indication anywhere on any website on FRC or anywhere else to indicate Lawful Good Rangers of Lathander can Never be Paladins of Lathander. If someone can LOGICALLY present a case why a Ranger of Lathander cannot LATER become a Paladin of Lathander; I'll shut up. So far all I've seen is references that LIMIT Multiclassing Freely. nothing that says specifically, it is an impossibility, like Paladin/Sorcerer for game balance. No one produced source yet that says that an order that does not allow multiclassing with ranger would admit a multiclass paladin/ranger into their ranks either. What DM Munroe is saying is very logical if you really examine it. He is simply saying "If an order doesn't allow a paladin to freely multiclass with rangers..why would a ranger/paladin make a suitable candidate for this order?" You are 100% correct to my knowledge that the orders requirements are listed without preconditions. Just hold your horses though man, the DM Team is actively discussing this situation as a whole. We will reach a decision on this and we usually come to a decision that is the best decision in the interest of FRC. That may be slightly different than what is allowed in PnP for various reasons. I'll go ahead and give you one of these very logical reasons. We have lots to do as DMs, and our private forums are choked with requests/tracking/etc, where we keep up with what is going on on the server. Do we really need another subboard full of threads about special exception paladins who had this or that class before joining a paladin order, but now can't have further levels in said class because their order doesn't allow it, but they can take levels in class x, x, and x because it is allowed? The decision we reach will usually be the one that is reasonably fair and keeps standards the same across the board for every character with a minimum of confusion for all parties. The fact remains though that if you do not belong to a paladin order that allows freely multiclassing with ranger, and you mixed paladin and ranger levels improperly (i.e. took any ranger levels after becoming a paladin) then neither my, or Munroe's interpretation of the rules supports what you did. Here is your rational explanation: Torm has an order that allows a paladin to freely multiclass as a ranger. Torm would be a good choice for you if you want to play a character that plans to intermix paladin and ranger levels. The PHB is VERY clear that once a paladin switches classes, they can never again take a level in the Paladin class. It is only with special FR Paladin Order rules that you can ever be a paladin and then take a level in another class, and then return to taking paladin levels. Munroe has been a DM on this team for a long time, and FRC has existed as a PW for a very long time and has been very successful. This is the case, because we are very careful about what we allow and we generally discuss it as a team (as we are doing now). My intention wasn't to outright disagree with Munroe, but to point out that there is obviously more than one way to interpret these rules. As in PnP, we will hold to the fact that it is up to us as DMs to say what does and doesn't go. Bearing all of this in mind, please try to be a little more patient and not continue to post disagreements with us, we are very aware that you disagree. |
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Post by simondelsolis on Mar 25, 2010 14:26:55 GMT -5
Thank You DM High Herald.
I admit to Ignorance of that rule, regarding switching back to Ranger. Which in my opinion is logical and fitting.
To be honest, I was forced to take an additional level of Paladin than planned. The program does not list Divine Shield as an availabe feat when leveling Rangers even if the Multiclassed character does have the Prerequisites. Something I didn't know when I developed the concept.
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Post by highknight on Mar 26, 2010 9:02:20 GMT -5
WHEREAS this facet of the topic has been exhausted AND WHEREAS this topic has been started. I HEREBY declare this thread locked. *snick* "Vote for me!" |
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