Skill: Taunt vs ....?

[archangel00]

I haven't found an answer to this question on the boards yet, so I figured I should say something before I taunt someone another PC . When I roll to taunt (yes backed with rp) someone, do they roll concentration or discipline or what to avoid getting all hot-headed and red in the face. Im not (at least at the time) trying to force the person to attack me, just to put them on edge.

The only reason I ask this question is that the NWN standard is Taunt vs Concentration. My target's argument was that he was I was trying to break through his training with my slander, so he rolled discipline. We quickly and peacefully resolved our conflict, but I wanted to post here to get something concrete to point to for the next time I do it.

Discipline as used in NWN is a skill solely used as a combat skill. It represents ability to avoid being restrained and knocked down, knowing how to hold your blade so that it isn't easily knocked out of your hands, etc. Nowhere does the description fit anything about mental state or focus. Fighters have access to a mental toughness skill, which is what NWN uses as the Concentration skill. Just because you know how to avoid my hip throw doesn't mean you don't get pissed off when I verbally assault you.

Please discuss so I know how to properly handle this in the future.

[The Supreme Watcher]

Concentration is the scripted NWN counter to taunt.

I would use that as the opposed roll in RP as well!

I use concentration for mental resilience and discipline for physical resilience (when a constitution or wisdom check isn't applicable).

[The Flying Ve]

What he said. I've even had Tao roll discipline to not vomit on Wyn.

I'm going to leave the broader issue of people "forgetting" skill checks aside and just say: "If you have issues about true sight 'metaing'/people constantly casting true sight, you should never have forgotten your move silently check with the invisibility. Or cast silence."

[EDM Entori]

resilience is the key word.

When I was in kung fu they did a lot of exercises to test the mental and physical will of a person.

Pain threshold with pressure points, was a Concentration check as it is all in your mind.

Discipline as I see it would be the ability to be disciplined enough to absorb a kick and not end up on your arse.

[brian333]

This was my character, and I was in a bad mood that evening, so I didn't adequately express myself.

My character didn't try to contest the Taunt. He is a bigot, and nothing a character says can make him hate non-elves any more than he already does. Basically, he autofailed the Taunt.

The Discipline check was for me to decide if I stayed in town or left. His training was the issue: was he disciplined enough to remain and continue his task or was he going to allow his anger to interfere with his mission? He failed and so my character left town after expressing his contempt for lower life forms.

You can argue that even then I chose the wrong skill, but they both have the exact same modifier on my character. My position is that he wasn't engaged in spellcasting or combat, and therefore no Concentration roll was required.

Now, as to particulars: rolling the dicebag after making a comment is not how Taunt works. It is a mechanical issue, granting nothing more than modifiers to combat. Had the taunt been made using the engine, the engine would auto-roll Concentration and apply the attack and Armor Class adjustments automatically.

(from Neverwinter Nights Instruction Manual)
Ability: Charisma
Classes: All
Untrained: Yes

Taunt is used to provoke an enemy into dropping his guard for a short time.

Check: The DC is a Concentration Check made by the target against the attacker's Taunt skill roll. It is considered an attack. If the Taunt is successful, the opponent suffers an Armor Class penalty equal to the difference between the Taunt roll and the defender's roll (to a maximum of -6) for 5 rounds. The target will also suffer a 30% chance of spell failure, if they don't resist the taunt.

Special: Taunt penalties are not cumulative. The diplomacy skill was broken into two skills, Persuade and Taunt, for Neverwinter Nights.

Use: Select Skill and then target creature.

Had I applied the effects of the Taunt failure as discribed, my character should have rushed over and begun pummelling the taunter.

If you wish to engage my character in roleplay, then you should feel free to verbally taunt my character all you like. There is no dice roll needed for that. If you wish to provoke combat then you should use the engine so that the save roll is automatic and the appropriate combat modifiers are applied if that roll fails.

[dirtysloth]

it seams your discipline check was not needed by your testimony
if someone uses the taunt ability your counter is auto rolled
deciding if the harrassment of others is enough to turn you from your goal would be more a personal decision of if you wish to take chances of an altercation
taunting is used to anger your opponent and put them in an aggressive mood that makes them drop their guard and lash out
ask any trained fighter and they will tell you anger is your greatest enemy
everyone thinks anderson silva is an amazing striker and that's why he wins fights but watch closely and you will see he has mastered the taunt, strutting about and bobbing his head until his opponent is angered and swings wild (the forest griffin fight is the best example of getting him to swing wild and make a big opening)
someone can taunt with no need for any dice rolls
if the non-elf's intention was to get you to leave town they could verbally accost your character and make you feel more threatened than angered
if you wish to "put them on edge" simply pick your words right and they will be on edge
any level of hostility can be achieved with the proper words
taunt should never be rolled from a dice bag, as it is provided through a tool and the existing mechanics

I have used taunt a couple times as experiment and it appeared to cause the defender to attack in response to the "attack" whether the taunt failed or succeeded.
playing with the radial menu on my companion I thought hey lets see what happens and nearly got myself killed by my own minion(I set him to follow to stop the assault but after the next altercation with a spawn he turned right back at me and nearly killed me again so I recommend never taunt your companion)
also you should never use the taunt on anyone you are not attempting to engage in PVP cause you may find yourself in combat like it or not

[archangel00]

Some people have a skill for insulting people and making their blood boil. Some people are also horrible at insulting people. Two people can say the exact two things to the same person and have two different effects. It's all about the delivery. To represent just how good Serra is at this delivery, I rolled her Taunt skill after I said some choice words that I thought would anger my target.

Yes, I noted that "Taunt is an attack" was highlighted. Are you saying that every time someone insults you, that is an attack? Because they are the exact same thing. Again, to show just how trained and skilled my pc is at it, I rolled. Im guessing that most pcs do not have ranks in taunt, so in their mind, why would they bother rolling the skill.

It kind of goes along the same lines as Intimidate. How many of you play big tough guys, but take minimal ranks in Intimidate? Or how many of you are really high level, have 0 ranks in Intimidate, but are intimidating anyway because we know that you can drop a death spell on us with the snap of a finger? Now imagine that same high level death spell dropper with 20 ranks in Intimidate.

(PS Brian, seriously, sorry for the bad mood, hope Serra didnt have too much to do with it )

[soulfien]

Taunt is an attack because you can walk up to a PC and use the taunt skill inflicting on them an attack penalty up to a maximum of -6 and a 30% chance of spell failure at the same time forcing them to strike at you...

Which will get them arrested and if they kill you, executed granting them a 250 xp per level penalty possibly deleveling them.

Need I say more?

[kaltorac]

Actually, if you use the Taunt Skill against someone IG, it's long been considered here as if you "swung first". Taunt when used this way is a PvP attack and nothing less. Though I can't find a referrence in the rules section, I know that a few have been "dealt with" here in the past when they constitantly used "taunting" as a way of making others "start" a fight.

[longearmage]

Well (and I might be a bit behind) what if all you're using the skill via the dicebag and not the Taunt skill itself?

[soulfien]

Mar 18, 2010 14:01:42 GMT -5 @kaltorac said:

Actually, if you use the Taunt Skill against someone IG, it's long been considered here as if you "swung first". Taunt when used this way is a PvP attack and nothing less. Though I can't find a referrence in the rules section, I know that a few have been "dealt with" here in the past when they constitantly used "taunting" as a way of making others "start" a fight.

Being arrested is done IC thus you have to prove you taunted them... a few choice words whispered and boom! It has to be proven.

[soulfien]

And though the actual skill wasn't used.... once a hin taunted my CE mage for 3 days in Isinhold. He would constantly taunt everyone around... everyone wanted the hin killed.

Finally after 3 days I couldn't take it anymore and attacked the hin, lost, was killed, raised, and sentenced to 24 days in jail and a 7 day banishment from town.

So.... taunting isn't really an excuse to attack someone.

This was recent.

[archangel00]

Mar 18, 2010 13:28:36 GMT -5 @soulfien said:

Taunt is an attack because you can walk up to a PC and use the taunt skill inflicting on them an attack penalty up to a maximum of -6 and a 30% chance of spell failure at the same time forcing them to strike at you...


Need I say more?

But I didnt walk up and use the Taunt skill on the person, or force an attack, or anything. I used the dice bag to roll a Taunt to reinforce just how much punch her words pack. I had no intention of attacking the pc, or for the pc to attack me. I wasn't in the pc's face, more like 10ft away. I wasn't using the taunt to try to lower their ac. The whole reason I started to sling words at him is because he was badmouthing humans in general, and continued to do so.


[edit] spelling

[dirtysloth]

we can taunt without dice rolls
simply picking the right words will get the right result if you only wish to change their mood and opinion of you
remember your not playing against lifeless counterparts they are driven by real people who will respond as they believe they should in the situation
if you wish to force them to respond as you wish you can use the taunt skill to enrage them into swinging or use the intimidate to scare them into leaving the area (what is the counter to intimidate here? in 3.5 you add character level to the counter but I don't see that plausible here)

what is the reason for taunting with a dice bag other than attempting to force another into a state that may not suit the opinions of the character

[archangel00]

Mar 18, 2010 15:48:47 GMT -5 dirtysloth said:

remember your not playing against lifeless counterparts they are driven by real people who will respond as they believe they should in the situation

what is the reason for taunting with a dice bag other than attempting to force another into a state that may not suit the opinions of the character

(broke it up into parts to make it easier to explain)

1: If that is your case, then why do you roll for anything? Why bother assigning stats the way you do? Can I RP an 8 charisma PC the same as an 18? The reason I ask is because these numbers all have actual value in game terms. Using your same logic, if a wizard casts a DC32 dominate person on my 4 will save barbarian, but I dont roll a save because I believe my barb wouldnt ever be dominated, I don't think that would fly. Thus, I'd use a dice roll. Which leads me into...

2: I taunted with a dice bag to show just how much Serraphin can really get under your skin with words. Would you react to someone that taunted you with a 2 the same as if they rolled a taunt of 22? I provided the die roll so the other PC could gauge how strong her insults really are, and left it totally up to the PC to decide the outcome. I didn't force a thing

Now, I'm not saying Dice are the end all, be all. However, if you're doing something your character excells at, I feel a dice roll with a high result shows just how excellent your PC is doing that task. This is especially important if I'm playing a 20 int wizard that is attempting to solve a riddle that is -completely- over my average head.

Again, thank you all for talking with me about this in a calm manner

[Munroe]

Using the Taunt scripted ability IS an attack for purposes of FRC and for purposes of game mechanics.

Taunting someone verbally either with or without the dicebag is roleplay, not an attack.

If you use the Taunt ability (the same mechanic found on the radial menu, regardless of how accessed), this IS an attack. If you have trouble wrapping your head around how a "taunt" is an attack, you were poking or shoving the person to provoke them and therefore started the fight.

Taunting through insults (with or without rolling dice) is not an attack. If someone wants to roll concentration against taunt, they may do so, but failing a concentration check doesn't mean they attack you, it just means you're a distraction for what they were trying to do. And let's be honest, if you're taunting someone without the dicebag, you're probably a distraction anyway.