Polytheism

[Lady Frost]

It is no secret that the Forgotten Realms is a Polytheistic setting.

From Wikipedia:
Polytheism is the belief in or worship of multiple deities, called gods and/or goddesses. These are usually assembled into a pantheon, along with their own mythologies and rituals.

Something that I would like to discuss is this part: (from wikipedia also)
Polytheists do not always worship all the gods equally, but can be monolatrists, specialising in the worship of one particular deity. Other polytheists can be kathenotheists, worshiping different deities at different times.

I have always played PC's that have their patron deity but offer prayers to other gods based on the situation.

Do you, as players of good PC's, ever offer prayers to evil gods or vice-versa? It may sound silly to some but if a plague comes through, offering a prayer to Talona (the evil goddess of disease and poison) to be spared may be the ticket to surviving. Infact the plague could be for that specific reason, to gain the infected populations prayers. Many evil gods have small followings but gain their prayers from fear of that gods portfolio bringing harm to them. Auril is another example. On the flip side of the coin an evil PC could offer a good god/goddess prayers for whatever reason.

Thoughts?

[Deleted]

Nov 23, 2009 18:08:10 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

It is no secret that the Forgotten Realms is a Polytheistic setting.

From Wikipedia:
Polytheism is the belief in or worship of multiple deities, called gods and/or goddesses. These are usually assembled into a pantheon, along with their own mythologies and rituals.

Something that I would like to discuss is this part: (from wikipedia also)
Polytheists do not always worship all the gods equally, but can be monolatrists, specialising in the worship of one particular deity. Other polytheists can be kathenotheists, worshiping different deities at different times.

I have always played PC's that have their patron deity but offer prayers to other gods based on the situation.

Do you, as players of good PC's, ever offer prayers to evil gods or vice-versa? It may sound silly to some but if a plague comes through, offering a prayer to Talona (the evil goddess of disease and poison) to be spared may be the ticket to surviving. Infact the plague could be for that specific reason, to gain the infected populations prayers. Many evil gods have small followings but gain their prayers from fear of that gods porfolio bringing harm to them. Auril is another example. On the flip side of the coin an evil PC could offer a good god/goddess prayers for whatever reason.

Thoughts?

My character prays to a variety of gods for a variety of reasons. He is evil aligned, primarily worships a TN deity, but regularly visits the temples of and offers prayers to both good and evil deities.

It's all about how the character perceives him/herself. My character doesn't consider himself to be evil.

[iangallowglas]

Seamus primarily offers prayers to Sune (his current patron), and Shandukal (his past patron). But he also offers prayers to Tempus, Tymora, and occasionally to Garagos (especially during the war). That's as close as he gets.


I have another character that prays to both Tempus and Mask.

[ancientempathy]

Gorstag was once a fully dedicated warrior to the Red Knight that became a Champion, and now is a priest

Throughout the course of his development he had gainned respect towards Sune but views her and her faithful to be unreliable, save for members in military uniform (and even then he still questions their stability)

When it comes to looking for peace, Gorstag turns to Eldath for that. Tempus he respects greatly, Torm too, Helm, Tyr, and a variety of other lawful deities that may be good or neutral, with his Goddess being the front and center of the majority of his relationship

He greatly distrusts the fickleness of fate and wagers, e.g. Tymora, even despite being Cormyrean. His ecclesiastical outlooks are what some may consider zealotry at worst, but there are days he grudingly accepts Tymora's assistance - it's just not on the field of combat. When it comes to Beshaba, he hates everything she stands for with great passion, seeing that if its bad enough to relie on pure chance for some achievements, he can't imagine how horrible it is to invoke poor fortune on others, and finds that to be a dirty trick

He fears Talos more than respects him. He holds little to no respect for Bane and does his best to not give into the gods desire to invoke fear into people; this is reinforced with his passion for aiding followers of Torm (whose faith is allied with the Red Knights)

He distrusts followers of Umberlee but the goddess herself he keeps at bay, paying respect. He doesnt like sailing much and if he were ever placed in a position to undergo naval combat (which has happened once), he'd confine within Valkur.

He holds Loviatar at a respectful stance strangely enough. As a warrior he endures a lot of physical pain, so it's not unheard of to hear him ask more endurance from the goddess. He turns to Ilmatar for emotional pain however. Both deities are Lawful, and one is good while another is evil (Gorstag happens to be LN, with an inclination towards Good more)

That about settles that off the top of my head. I'd go into more detials but I'd rather folks figure out the rest in game ;D

Oh, and those damn chaotic elves he adores for their splendors and beauty and their typical pleasant/good nature...But it drives him up the wall most days at an elves need to be individualistic during adventures

[EDM Neo]

My two good PCs typically don't offer actual prayers to evil deities. They might respect or fear various dark gods to varying degrees, which I suppose is a form of worship, and they pray to numerous neutral and good gods, but they're both kinda zealot-ish when it comes to actively opposing most dark gods and their followers (they're more tolerant of some then others, of course).

One is a "redeemed" cleric (Celith), originally of an evil god, and now of a good god himself, and the other has 8 wisdom and thinks far more highly of his own sorcerous powers then he should (Rigrin)... its yet to come back to bite him in a significant way, but I'm sure it will sooner or later.

My neutral (Rosaline) and evil (Camina) characters aren't as picky. Camina's actually probably the least religious of my characters, despite being a druidess... it's very rare that she prays, or even pays lip service to any gods, preferring to just focus on meditating about those aspects of nature that she most strongly empathizes with (she still has a patron deity who grants her spells, she just doesn't really actively acknowledge them other then as having specific naturey things that she cares about in their portfolio).

[828stingstingneo]

Interesting. Elvalith, also a druid, considers herself pretty much a priestess of nature. She almost exclusively turns to Silvanus and prays to him rather devoutly. She is not above praying to other gods, but usually this is not dependent on the situation (ie. battle, being in love, etc.) but whom she is with. For example, if someone invokes the blessing of his deity on her, she will usually return it on him (the exception being deities that are clearly enemies of Silvanus such as Velsharoon). She will even willingly offer Lurue's blessing on her boyfriend (a priest of Lurue) first on occasion, both because she cares for him and because his deity is a particular ally of Silvanus. Also, her typical parting blessing on people is, "May Silvanus guide you on safe trails," but after a discussion with a certain mage who often travels by magic she will usually part with him saying, "May Mystra guide you on safe trails." In general she also honors the Seldarine because they are the gods of her People. She hasn't generally heard their stories since childhood, and she yearns to learn their history again.

I think it would be much more likely for a priest (or even another kind of divine caster) to be more exclusively focused on his own patron, but I think it makes sense for most other people to be more open minded. I see the worship of evil deities out of fear as something of a neutral act that most ordinary worshippers of neutral alignment would do. I don't think a character who takes his goodness seriously (such as a paladin or divine worshipper of a good deity) would do it, but someone who merely has good tendencies might, especially if circumstances are dire. I think evil people who wish to remain secret might pay lip service to good deities without actually worshipping them. I don't think someone who is very serious about his patron would ever actually worship any of his patron's enemies (the lip service idea being a possible exception), relying on his patron's protection rather than that of the enemy deity. That's just my opinion on how I think most FR citizens would worship. I realize there will always be quirky exceptions, especially where those crazy adventurers are concerned.

[EDM Entori]

Nov 23, 2009 18:08:10 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

It is no secret that the Forgotten Realms is a Polytheistic setting.

From Wikipedia:
Polytheism is the belief in or worship of multiple deities, called gods and/or goddesses. These are usually assembled into a pantheon, along with their own mythologies and rituals.

Something that I would like to discuss is this part: (from wikipedia also)
Polytheists do not always worship all the gods equally, but can be monolatrists, specialising in the worship of one particular deity. Other polytheists can be kathenotheists, worshiping different deities at different times.

I have always played PC's that have their patron deity but offer prayers to other gods based on the situation.

Do you, as players of good PC's, ever offer prayers to evil gods or vice-versa? It may sound silly to some but if a plague comes through, offering a prayer to Talona (the evil goddess of disease and poison) to be spared may be the ticket to surviving. Infact the plague could be for that specific reason, to gain the infected populations prayers. Many evil gods have small followings but gain their prayers from fear of that gods porfolio bringing harm to them. Auril is another example. On the flip side of the coin an evil PC could offer a good god/goddess prayers for whatever reason.

Thoughts?

Seldarine have no evil aligned gods, but very Chaotic gods, sharvesh for example.

may you watch out for their characters, we made a few the elf guild here did to show that side of elven culture here and there, a while ago.


while he is polytheistic, in terms of offering prayer to the seldarine He would not give worship to bane or gods forbid Loth.

side note: _{"Can someone send me a pm explaining druid casting and how it is not god related, and how a faithless druid can cast spells"}

[EDM Neo]

Nov 24, 2009 16:15:36 GMT -5 EDM Entori said:

_{"Can someone send me a pm explaining druid casting and how it is not god related, and how a faithless druid can cast spells"}

PM sent... just for clarity, I wasn't saying above that Camina is faithless, just that she cares more for certain aspects of nature then for her actual patron.



On another side note, though, I'm just curious... do many players of non-human PCs limit themselves to only paying respects to members of their racial pantheon?

Rigrin worships Yondalla's Children predominately, but still respects many human gods (and even some dwarven and elven gods... not so many gnomish, because he doesn't know much about them, having only met a handful of gnomes) greatly.

Rosaline grew up wheeling and dealing in Athkatla, and while she respects Yondalla's Children, she more often prays to human gods, seeing them as having more influence on her life.

Celith was raised by humans, primarily to respect the gods of magic. Through a series of events, he became a priest of Velsharoon, but in recent years, came to renounce him and took up the worship of Labelas Enoreth. Until a few months before then, he was only vaguely familiar with the Seldarine, and today, embraces his duties as one of their priests, but feels more strongly dedicated to "the greater good" as a whole then to any single god, human or elven, not discriminating strongly between other worshipers of the elven gods and followers of goodly human ones. He does, however, have quiet disdain for some worshipers of neutral gods, human end elven, not for that he begrudges them for asking their aid, but because he sees many of them as too apathetic.

[catmage]

As a formerly TN and now evil aligned character, Ailren has and does worship a number of deities. The lion's share of his prayers go to Tiamat and Oghma, since Tiamat is his patron, and OGhma was formerly his patron, and Ailren didn't leave the fold out of disagreement, but out of a feeling of duty to the Dragon Queen.

Other gods he follows include: Lendys(LN), the draconic god of justice, law, and balance, viewing him as the purest form of law that a physical being can be: Task(CE), the dragon god of greed, who is the simplest of his deities to follow, since Task's "worship" involves hoarding wealth, taking wealth, and enjoying wealth; Tamara(NG), The draconic goddess of heling and mercy, though he tends to avoid active prayer to her for himself, whispering or simply thinking prayers loudly for the sake of his allies and friends; Null(LN), the draconic god of the dead. Ailren worships both aspects of the deity, the indifferent watcher that chronicles the passing of life, and the Night Dragon that violently takes life and promotes undeath; Lliira(CG), a holdover from a more happy childhood; Hlal(LN), The god(dess?, source is unclear in some cases) of tricksters, messages, and bardic type things, that he worships for obvious reason.

Ailren grudingly offers lip service to the current form of Mystra, and was a fan of her last incarnation. He has on at least one occasion offered tribute to Vhaeraun, and while he hates the Seldarine, he will avoid harming worshippers of two of those deities, one because of his former worship of her, the other because he is an ally and friend of one of the Draconic Pantheon.

Beyond that, the only time he considers prayers to other deities is because of reasons of appeasement(Such as tithing to Talona to avoid plagues), perceived connections to his "personal" pantheon, or because he has slighted the deity by attacking their worshippers, not from wishing to oppose the deity. Oh, and he'll offer tithes to deities of friends on occasion.

[Deleted]

WRT good characters "praying" to evil gods, I think a few good examples would be:

- Trying to ward off misfortune by praying to Beshaba
- Praying to Umberlee to avoid her wrath before a sea voyage
- Praying to Auril to avoid snowstorms during a winter trip

It might also help to think of it as sacrificing/tithing/giving them deference rather than actually worshipping. For example a good seaman would probably worship Valkur, but he'd also give money to the local shrine of Umberlee before a voyage and bow his head and say something like:

"All who sail the seas recognize your omnipotence over the waves, Queen of the Depths. We bow before your mastery of the briny depths and ask that you spare our vessel for this trip across your demense."

Similarly, a groom/bride might tithe to Beshaba before a wedding to ward off ill luck.

[easternenterprise]

There are good-aligned deities Sharteel deliberatly tries to oppose while there are some she would never seek to harm (and would likely prefer to aid).

We have no priests of Eldath, but were one such to exist, their very philosophies in life and calming presence could potentially repulse Sharteel away, or compel her to aid them if its within her invested interest. The days that she could be repelled is when she's done a particularly nasty action (or is simply feeling very evil), and the Eldathan's site causes her to reflect inwardly on the spot, thus troubling her mind and pushing her off. The reason being to this is due a past where she actively worshipped Tempus. Now she gives prayers to him at appropriate times.

Ilmater is a deity who she'll oppose at every turn and his followers too when she can. She's much more interested in him than any of the other members of the Triad (Tyr and Torm), and would rather avoid conflict with the rest, so she acts descreetly. She's aware that a paladin from the faiths wouldn't be initmidated by her and likely wouldn't show the kind of respect she'd desire (the fearful kind), but she would hope her personal power would be enough to make the paladins be at a neutral stance with her. Speaking from a novel standpoint, in her mind, she fears an outright crusade made agaisnt her of paladins of the Triad. Paladins don't have detect evil in NwN, but I don't mind if a paladin tries to pin her as a being with the stench of evil (its something I like to call, giving the player the benefit of the doubt). Now if they choose to call her on it, then they'll have to contend with her manipulative words and she can make people look quite foolish Anyway...

There are evil gods she'll oppose, like Cyric and sometimes Mask. She doesn't appreciate Masks' underhanded manners but can recognize that the deities followers do know how to make coin - so if she can boil them in water or sautee' them, they've got to make for nummy snacks. To date she's never really been given a chance to reconsider her position with Mask, as she's never gotten a business offering from the deities servants.

As I mentioned in another thread Sharteel actively opposes Sune with great irrational hate.

When it comes to Waukeenar, they can either help her make coin, or get smelted so she can gild them into something! She adores Waukeen's skills at merchantile trade, mostly influenced upon her very greedy nature.

Sharess is a goddess Sharteel can sometimes see eye to eye with. Due to her draconic heritage it's not unheard of for Sharteel to be highly hedonistic and wanting to try new delights for the sensation of it.

She hates Lliira, finding her followers to be exceedingly annoying and too frail to give the time of day.

She'll oppose followers of Shar without much hesitation, having learned ICly of Shar's perversion of the Weave.

Mystra she respects mostly out of fear of the goddess' might and her numerous famous followers that wield exceptionally scarey magics.

The Vaunted is a deity Sharteel doesn't particularly like because she dislikes the undead, finding them to be better-off used as toys on seldom occasions than to make them a daily commodity. She finds an undeads presence to be a perversion of beauty and nature (hint hint).

The Seldarine isn't something Sharteel particularly understands a whole lot. Her past education and present educational pursuits do not include the Seldarine. Sharteel doesn't avidly hate elves like what some of her companions may do. Afterall, elves can be physically tastey as much as their bardic talents are, and she's a beast that can be soothed by music

Thus leading me to comment on Milil, who she's head-over-heels over. One of these days she'll get her claws on a particular follower of Milil she knows and force him to be a consort of hers if he's not willing! LOL

There's a lot of other stuff I could detail but this is enough

[catmage]

Ah, that reminded me of the list of Deities Ailren Can Not Stand.

Shar's the number one on the list. Though he enjoys keeping secrets same as anyone else, Ailren can't stand her overall prevention and perversion of knowledge, making her the clearest enemy to Oghma he can make out. The same holds true for Cyric, since lies are as horrid to him as twisted knowledge, but Shar is in a class all her own, thanks to the Shadow Weave. Ailren knows just enough about the Shadow Weave from IG learning to understand that it's magic that doesn't come naturally to dragonkind, and isn't a direct reflection of that natural magic, like wizardry is. Thus, he considers the Shadow Weave to be in opposition to the Dragon Queen's(In his mind) rightful claim on the bulk of innate casters.

Bane Ailren does not oppose per se, but he does attack his followers given half a legit reason and the belief that he'll win, or that Fzoul won't have any reason to become personally involved.

Other than those, Ailren doesn't actively work against the gods. He considers himself too unprotected to move brazenly against the followers of the Seldarine, and he'll act against anyone a deity he worships or is trying to appease tells him to, but he avoids speaking ill of or angering deities without need, something I think is in need of consideration...

How does your character react to followers of gods they don't like, and how do they speak of those gods?

Ailren rarely mentions gods he respects/fears by name if possible, even though he knows to some degree that the simple act of considering a god grants that god some ability to understand what's going on around the speaker. It's still a matter of respect, and even if you don't like a god, over indulging on the bad mouthing increases your odds of that god arranging events so that you come into conflict with their worshippers, or some other method to get your character screwed without drawing attention to themselves and thus granting other deities a chance to strike back.

Same vein, whenever an Alizarin function is being held, Ailren always tithes to both Tymora and Beshaba, and will deliver a formal invitation to the latter, since according to Fatihs and Pantheons, it is considered proper(Read, safest thing to do) to invite Beshaba to formal events, sporting events, weddings and the like, because otherwise Beshaba might feel slighted and say, sink an academy by the sea, or cause an earthquake to drop a boulder on the blushing bride.

[easternenterprise]

When it comes to Sharteel, if the person is a follower of a god she doesn't like, she probably wont give them the time of day unless they're kissing both of her cheeks. She wont openly speak out agaisnt the god either unless she truly feels to be in a position of supremacy (in other words, she truly feels protected at the current time with her own faith).

Actual followers of deities she opposes she'll only engage when she finds the constructive reason to (afterall, killing someone for their faith is no different than attacking someone based on the fact that they're good or evil, there's got to be more of a poetic/novel excuse involved). Like the Sunites for instance. Off-hand, there's Sunites she doesn't care for, but she doesn't nessecarily feel compelled to harm them (quite the contrary, she'd rather sexually seduce and corrupt than harm them, but anyway).

She understands that gods have supreme talents at knowing when they are being spoken of so she rarely speaks out agaisnt them out of respect and fear.

I'd type out more but I've been drinkign some So minds gone blank

[Lady Frost]

In response to this:

Nov 25, 2009 19:40:52 GMT -5 catmage said:

How does your character react to followers of gods they don't like, and how do they speak of those gods?

Zodika rarely says the names of gods, especially the ones she doesn't care for. She will however speak openly and clearly against certain gods and actively defiles holy places/symbols and kidnaps followers of them. She feels if she can become a big enough problem that the gods have to get involved she is doing a good job and thus if she dies her patron will be there for her in one way or another.

[The Supreme Watcher]

I'm just really tired of people giving my characters weird looks when they say "Umberlee's letting it all out today," or "Beshaba's got her eye on us, it seems." I always chuckle when good people say "DON'T SPEAK THEIR NAME ZOMGZOMGZOMG."

[Lady Frost]

Nov 26, 2009 20:37:52 GMT -5 The Supreme Watcher said:

I'm just really tired of people giving my characters weird looks when they say "Umberlee's letting it all out today," or "Beshaba's got her eye on us, it seems." I always chuckle when good people say "DON'T SPEAK THEIR NAME ZOMGZOMGZOMG."

Well, that is because saying the wrong name can sometimes have unfortunate consequences:

(from forgotten realms wiki)
Orcus has a chance of hearing his name whenever and wherever spoken, and of reacting by manifesting to the speaker in an irritated mood. Unscrupulous merchants in various parts of the D&D have used this by selling parrots trained to speak only innocuous phrases until at a predetermined location, when they scream Orcus' name non-stop. This summons the demon, who slays the adventurer, allowing his or her equipment to be looted by the merchant's associates.

[Charon's Claw]

LOL! That's good business!

[ancientempathy]

Nov 26, 2009 22:23:17 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

Nov 26, 2009 20:37:52 GMT -5 The Supreme Watcher said:

I'm just really tired of people giving my characters weird looks when they say "Umberlee's letting it all out today," or "Beshaba's got her eye on us, it seems." I always chuckle when good people say "DON'T SPEAK THEIR NAME ZOMGZOMGZOMG."

Well, that is because saying the wrong name can sometimes have unfortunate consequences:

(from forgotten realms wiki)
Orcus has a chance of hearing his name whenever and wherever spoken, and of reacting by manifesting to the speaker in an irritated mood. Unscrupulous merchants in various parts of the D&D have used this by selling parrots trained to speak only innocuous phrases until at a predetermined location, when they scream Orcus' name non-stop. This summons the demon, who slays the adventurer, allowing his or her equipment to be looted by the merchant's associates.

The best aprt is, it doesn't just extend to deities either. Beings with enough power (mortal), can sometimes have the detective means of knowing when their name is being beckoned. Descreetion is the better part of valor, but not every adventurer will understand this notion; that particular gods' names are best left unmentioned.

I remember on an adventure once with a friend, my character was in caverns and uttered Shar's name once. Ooops? The DM on at the time made it an interesting point to show that the goddess at the time heard her name mentioned, and sent in some recognition for it lol It was awesome fun

[soulfien]

What about the other side of the coin?

What happens when an evil person who worships Bane tells everyone he worships Lathander when questioned?

Do the good deities put up with this behavior?

[ancientempathy]

They dont like it

I think Munroe or High Herald can come up with a better response than me on that

I always felt that if a PC is faking their religion, they should, at one point or another, start to experience some heat from the deity they are hiding behind in some shape or form

A good example that comes to mind comes from the game Baldurs Gate. You're doing a mission service for the church of Lathander, they task you to relcaim a ring-relic that had been stolen from them by Shadow Thieves, who were working for the Talosians at the time. You find the leader's hut in time and request the ring handed over; your disguise was under a Talosian sect. The leader asks the PC if they can state their loyalty to Talos...you then have a few options, which mostly consists or refusing to do so (which lead to combat), killing the leader outright, or agreeing to do so.

If the PC agree'd, then Talos struck the PC with a lightning bolt effect. It didn't harm the PC, but it was one of those obvious omen marks that suggested, "This fool is lieing, he is not of the faith"

Talos isn't exactly descreet

[The Supreme Watcher]

Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate II are the best Forgotten Realms games ever produced. FANBOY ALERT.

[soulfien]

Nov 27, 2009 14:41:41 GMT -5 The Supreme Watcher said:

Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate II are the best Forgotten Realms games ever produced. FANBOY ALERT.

QFT

[Lady Frost]

Don't Even Start To Hijack This!!