Elven years

[ancientempathy]

An 18 year old elf, is not an 18 year old human. An 18 year old elf; you may as well still breastfeed them. The cusp of adulthood for elves is like, 110+, or something HIGH?

Yeah...

As for something to actually discuss, and likely more of an interest to elves out there: At what age do people think the youngest elf would let their wanderlust send them out to adventure?

My low is 85...Go!

[Charon's Claw]

Well, I think Drizzt was 60 or so when he managed to survive the Underdark, but a drow is different than an elf since they're battle hardened from birth almost. So I would say 80 minimum.

[ancientempathy]

Despite having a sourcebook to teach me, I never bothered reading about the drow and its society much, other than the cool part about their women wearing dominatrix outfits and into kinky whipping

Or was that something else I read?

[EDM Entori]

my lore, and collective knowledge Pretty much says that 80 is the end of Adolesence/ teenage years.

With 120 being the standard of NWN.

Anything less then that. means your playing a child really.


However, let us not forsake what an elf is.

For an Elf is taught things long before it enters the world. my source is unoffical here, but I've been looking up on Reverie, on the Communion of elves. Trying to find out more.

I found a interesting clause regarding children, as a child is sung to in the whome, while a mother rests, it is taught things and has "communication" Elven children can Walk and talk from birth.

So your 10 year old elven child, has known elvish, about the seldarine amongst other things, if the mother so passed such down.

Where it gets complicated is if a mother had forsaken her elven side, had slept instead of dipped into the communion of Reverie, and for all intents and purposes, become a "pointy eared human".

I'm working on a word document with different examples and phrases about Reverie, and elven children/teachings soon.

However, even still 80.. pushes it, but it does depend, out of the high forest, or waterdeep and other places where elves mingle more with humans, may see it sooner.

I think that the elven mindset however, is formed at birth, see the long view in my link below in the lore of the lands section by Daschound.

I'm not saying anyone who Rp's this differently is wrong, however, If your 80 year old elf from evermeet shows up who dresses and acts very much like a human, in terms of tendancies, etc. you may need to justify that more.

It takes ALOT to play an non standard elf, above and beyond what it takes to play an elf, but you got to answer some tough questions about your character. IMHO.....



Now, so to put it lightly.

High forest/ Faerunian locations: 80

more Elven areas of faerun: I'd top at 110-130.

Evermeet, - near 200. Evermeet is the near utopia for Elves, it is as close to living in arvandor (heaven) as you get, if one leaves, it is usually not for a long period of time, if it is, it usually carries a mission. This mission May take 40-50 years, but such is understood, especially if it's needed in the community, such as regaining lost relics/ lore.

[EDM Neo]

Hrm... correct me if I'm wrong, but elves, up until they hit mid-twenties, age about as quickly as humans? They physically mature at a "normal" rate, up to a certain point, then they come to a near complete stop for the next few hundred years. Just that they take a fair deal longer to reach what's generally considered emotional maturity amongst their own people.

I don't know how a elf who hasn't hit a hundred yet would seem to humans and other outsiders, though... anyone have any thoughts on that?

[kaltorac]

Nov 21, 2009 21:54:33 GMT -5 @ancientempathy said:

An 18 year old elf, is not an 18 year old human. An 18 year old elf; you may as well still breastfeed them. The cusp of adulthood for elves is like, 110+, or something HIGH?

Yeah...

As for something to actually discuss, and likely more of an interest to elves out there: At what age do people think the youngest elf would let their wanderlust send them out to adventure?

My low is 85...Go!

Physically, elves mature at roughly the same rate as humans. It's emotionally that they are ill equipped until 70 to 100+ in most cases. Elves also have societal duties and obligations that few would not complete and fill those extra spans of years. Most are taught dance ... and singing ... and poetry ... and study various lore through their formative years. Almost all outside wildelves study magic whether or not that ends up the path they'll continue on or not. They aren't simply born better swordsman and archers than most ... they study those weapons in their early years.

It's also well known that many younger elves spend these formative years freguently frolicking and giving into their "fleshly" desires. It's not unheard of for an elf to start adventuring in their 20s ... it's just rare and often indicates that they were orphaned ... or adopted by a shorter lived race. They'd also be lacking in the "culture" that most elves carry with them.

[catmage]

According to Races of the Wild, anelf is a full grown adult at age 25. The starting ages for elves in Player's Guide to Faerun are thus ages that an elf who has chosen that particular profession generally get the urge to wander.

An elf doesn't start to show signs of aging after reaching 25 until about 150, and not even another elf can tell the age of an elf until they interact with them, since younger elves show less maturity, grace, and poise than a more mature elf.

Elves do not get wrinkles, grey hair, or any other physical signs of aging, instead taking on an otherworldly quality. Elves enjoy good health and pyhsical beauty up until the moment of their death.

[ancientempathy]

oh ho! Then I concede to the elf masters on this

I suppose I should have known better than to go by what a novel says. I believe that in the Archwizard series, one of the younger elves was about 80 or so of age and they mentioned how young she was, or at least I think it was 80

[ancientempathy]

Oops, so I forgot to mention...based upon what the book told me, the underlieing impression was that -80 was very young still

[EDM Entori]

I am rereading that Series right now AE.

a good example there is the main characters younger Sibling, she has house hold duties ETc to attend to..

I'll add to what khalbren said there. Elves are also very self sufficent, in terms of Crafting. Smithing, cloth making, Anything needed for daily life, (this includes magic to elves, hense why wizard is their favored class) would be studied in that time. preparing a meal. etc




I believe this is related here

"PsychologyMore than any other single factor, an innate respect for individualism governs an elf’s behavior. Though elves do live in communities, each elf strives for self-sufficiency as well as harmony with the land and his fellow creatures. This attitude engenders an expectation that other beings are equally able to care for themselves unless ill or injured—which sometimes makes elves appear haughty, uncaring, and unhelpful to humans, dwarves, and other less chaotic races. In truth, elves are no less willing to help others in need than any other goodaligned race, but their respect for the boundaries of others often prevents them from offering aid to those who seem more or less capable and have not requested help.

The strong sense of individualism that pervades the elven nature also gives rise to a strong need for self-expression. Given an elf’s natural aptitude for the arts, such expression often manifests itself in sculpture, painting, textile art, music, architecture, landscaping, gourmet cooking, storytelling, acting, dance, or any of various kinds of crafts. It may also take the form of pointed disagreements with authority figures and even an occasional impassioned expression of opinion. The naturally reserved dwarves often see such outbursts as an inability to control one’s emotions, but to an elf, failure to express opinions represents a foolish abrogation of the self.

Elves consider the free expression of sorrow or joy as not only a personal right, but also a societal necessity. No stigma is attached to an elf who laughs or cries in public, or who makes others do so by means of story or song. The fact that most elves are comfortable with expressing their own emotions makes them particularly good bards and actors. Nevertheless, many elves who spend time with members of other races learn to curb their emotions in public, often resorting to dry humor to mask profound feelings.

Personal privacy is a matter of utmost importance to an elf, and the designation of personal space is a vital expression of self. Elves are taught from birth to establish their own space and respect that of others. Thus, approaching another elf too closely—or, worse yet, touching one—without invitation is considered the height of rudeness. Since most elf communities are established in outdoor settings, space is rarely at a premium. Thus, each individual can have at least a room—if not an entire dwelling—of his own. An elf’s private chamber is an extension of his own personal space and is considered off-limits to others unless express permission is given to enter. When a community’s size becomes unwieldy and threatens the sustainability of the surrounding resources, a contingent of young adults often splits off to find new territory."





and from Elven Values.....




The lack of greed that most elves display stems from their self-sufficiency as well as their respect for other beings and the natural world. Taught from birth that their communities must be sustainable, they take only what they need for their personal livelihood and projects. All elves have the same rights to support themselves, and taking more than one’s share interferes with that right. In the same manner, elves replant trees that have been cut and ensure that the resources their communities use are continually renewed and replenished. To do otherwise would be to doom their own race as well as others, and elves have little patience with other races that cannot see this particular truth.Since elves have no need to exist in the kind of close confines that dwarves occupy and do not have highly specialized societies, they find it both easy and logical to place the needs of the individual above those of the group. Each elf largely takes care of himself, though all contribute to the community in one way or another.




and Technology and Magic


Magic is as necessary to most elves as breathing. Even those who do not become wizards, sorcerers, or bards usually consider magic part of their daily lives and use it in the form of magic items. To an elf’s way of thinking, there is almost nothing that cannot be done wholly or partially by magic. Because of their highly individualistic nature, elves frequently develop new spells and create new magic items.

[The Supreme Watcher]

I've always thought most players of elves dropped the ball.

All of this is just further proof that I was right to be disappointed.

Elven masters, you have broken my heart by proving your aptitude for the pointers.

[ancientempathy]

Nov 22, 2009 4:21:28 GMT -5 The Supreme Watcher said:

I've always thought most players of elves dropped the ball.

All of this is just further proof that I was right to be disappointed.

Elven masters, you have broken my heart by proving your aptitude for the pointers.

Critisism without an explanation?

Come on garum, if your balls are being dropped they must be rather light weight ;D ;D Do indulge some please

[The Supreme Watcher]

Every time I read one of these topics on elves, and then reflect on how I've seen people play elves, it makes me think of how damned hard it really would be to portray an elf, and how poorly most people go about it.

Not criticizing the posters, since they're elf players that have made impressions on me, just making an observation about elven RPers in general.

[qewaye]

Nov 22, 2009 5:16:03 GMT -5 The Supreme Watcher said:

Every time I read one of these topics on elves, and then reflect on how I've seen people play elves, it makes me think of how damned hard it really would be to portray an elf, and how poorly most people go about it.

Not criticizing the posters, since they're elf players that have made impressions on me, just making an observation about elven RPers in general.

I appreciate that you appreciate that. It is very difficult to play an elf. A lot of people can't get into the slow "long view" mindset or end up playing the dreaded "pointy-eared human".

Most players I know are very good though, from the most elven of elves to Amara(who plays a non-elven elf in a believable way).

[ancientempathy]

Nov 22, 2009 5:16:03 GMT -5 The Supreme Watcher said:

Every time I read one of these topics on elves, and then reflect on how I've seen people play elves, it makes me think of how damned hard it really would be to portray an elf, and how poorly most people go about it.

Not criticizing the posters, since they're elf players that have made impressions on me, just making an observation about elven RPers in general.

Ahh, I understand now If you've seen some disappointments in the game, I can assure you there's a fair amount of good examples that are to your liking I think. They're just bloody hard to come across because they're prancing in woods or some such

[iangallowglas]

I've heard this argument that people don't play this class well or this race well. When I make a character, I make them and play them how I feel they should be. I feel free to embrace or ignore stereotypes from books, and such, and let the chips fall where they may fall for the character. After all, if all paladins were perfectly lawfull and perfectly good, we'd have no fallen paladins, and if all drow were steeped in evil, their would be no Drizzit.

Just my Opinion.

[Lady Frost]

Nov 22, 2009 6:09:52 GMT -5 @qewaye said:

Nov 22, 2009 5:16:03 GMT -5 The Supreme Watcher said:

Every time I read one of these topics on elves, and then reflect on how I've seen people play elves, it makes me think of how damned hard it really would be to portray an elf, and how poorly most people go about it.

Not criticizing the posters, since they're elf players that have made impressions on me, just making an observation about elven RPers in general.

I appreciate that you appreciate that. It is very difficult to play an elf. A lot of people can't get into the slow "long view" mindset or end up playing the dreaded "pointy-eared human".

Most players I know are very good though, from the most elven of elves to Amara(who plays a non-elven elf in a believable way).

I think this is what needs to be remembered. Your asking a human to get into the mindset of playing an elf. Most people don't even know what that means. It could be disappointing, sure, but we'd be crazy to ask or think that everyone that plays an elf is going to spend weeks researching elven psychology. Most people click "elf" as their race and ponder a few movie character elves or something they read in a book. Many adventurers tend to have unique personalities anyhow compared to the common of a race.

[Deleted]

Nov 22, 2009 13:25:42 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

Nov 22, 2009 6:09:52 GMT -5 @qewaye said:

I appreciate that you appreciate that. It is very difficult to play an elf. A lot of people can't get into the slow "long view" mindset or end up playing the dreaded "pointy-eared human".

Most players I know are very good though, from the most elven of elves to Amara(who plays a non-elven elf in a believable way).

I think this is what needs to be remembered. Your asking a human to get into the mindset of playing an elf. Most people don't even know what that means. It could be disappointing, sure, but we'd be crazy to ask or think that everyone that plays an elf is going to spend weeks researching elven psychology. Most people click "elf" as their race and ponder a few movie character elves or something they read in a book. Many adventurers tend to have unique personalities anyhow compared to the common of a race.

I both agree and disagree with parts of this.

I think if a player chooses to play an elven wizard from Evermeet or a priest of Labelas, they need to do some research and conform to the mainstream views of these types of characters. These characters are steeped in centuries of elven tradition.

If a player wants to make a character who has never been a part of a traditional elven community, and is a common adventurer....sure, they don't need to be a model of elven stereotypes.

Both types of characters are fun, I've played the latter type, but not the former, at least in NWN.

[ancientempathy]

Nov 22, 2009 13:34:47 GMT -5 @dmhighherald said:

Nov 22, 2009 13:25:42 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

I think this is what needs to be remembered. Your asking a human to get into the mindset of playing an elf. Most people don't even know what that means. It could be disappointing, sure, but we'd be crazy to ask or think that everyone that plays an elf is going to spend weeks researching elven psychology. Most people click "elf" as their race and ponder a few movie character elves or something they read in a book. Many adventurers tend to have unique personalities anyhow compared to the common of a race.

I both agree and disagree with parts of this.

I think if a player chooses to play an elven wizard from Evermeet or a priest of Labelas, they need to do some research and conform to the mainstream views of these types of characters. These characters are steeped in centuries of elven tradition.

If a player wants to make a character who has never been a part of a traditional elven community, and is a common adventurer....sure, they don't need to be a model of elven stereotypes.

Both types of characters are fun, I've played the latter type, but not the former, at least in NWN.

*thumbs up*

And speaking of research, we've a ton of lovely stuff in the Lore of the Lands thread to help in this endeavor! *shamelessly promotes*

[Lokarn]

I find this topic very interesting, thank you for bringing it up. I usually play humans because it's easy. The other races are hard to get right. Dwarves, elves, and hin all have inherently differing emotional outlooks on life that makes playing them take a good deal of effort. To do well anyway.

Dwarves are the most difficult, finding ways to spell so that it sounds like you have a Scottish or Irish accent is hard.

[ritefoot]

18 is way out.

Last I remember ages are somewhere like this.
Elf - Human.
1 - 1
5 - 2
10 - 3
18 - 4.5
30 - 10
50 - 12
75 - 15 (About when they start adult training)
120 - 18 (When they are able to be heard in public as an adult)
150 - 21
200 - 26
300 - 30 (When they might get married without it being odd)
400 - 40
500 - 50
600 - 60
700 - 70
1000 - death in a cloud of bubbles.

Elves are not human. They are also not perfect. People play both sides too much. Thing is who is to say this is wrong.

Many long players act like Elves can do no wrong and life in perfect balance.

They are chaotic. They do wander. They are dropping in number.

Personally I say if people listen and do not ham it up too much more power to them.
Community means we listen too.

I am not sure an elf can be played properly. The social and age thing is a big deal.

For an elf to take up service under a human, for example, would be like you collecting twigs for a chimp as a job. In six months you would see him age by 6 years and he would many times show a passionate lust for something you could never understand like collecting berries, and show violent bouts of throwing poo.
There is just no way you would be impressed by that.

Your grandmother would have danced naked with you at last springs moonlight feast and remember 700 years ago when she dances the same way at those spring dances too. Only she was not as good at it then.
Grrr Go Gran Go Gran Go Gran!

Elves are becoming extinct but this is new. As a race they have lands and wealth scattered over the whole world and debts to collect from nations and powerful other worldly beings.

A given elf will not have money per say but elves will protect a stray. They all know this. They will not try to collect money beyond what they need. You need to protect wealth and what is the point? They spend from 120 to 300 with no need to support themselves beyond their day to day needs. Things like planning so they can buy a house or pay for college are meaningless. For them these are things so far into the future they would not plan for beyond a sense of duty to maintain their hereditary lands and to their families. These however must stay forever.

They see and hear better than others and have access to magical places creatures and things. This goes to the point that they almost do not live in the same world. A child elf will remember when that forest over there was 3 times the size. It is not a tree hugger thing, they might not cry over the death of a squire, after all they do hunt meat. Seeing a needless kill is more like watching a punk graffiti. It does matter and they know it. They do not think they can turn the decline.

It would be strange for there to be poor elves. If lands grew weak the shrinking numbers would make them amalgamate clans. They would help each other.

Elves will have known each other for so long in closed protected worlds that the death of even an enemy would be mourned. Your enemies will be leaving flowers at your grave and feel sad. Your loss would have shocked their world and everything they knew.

They do not look human at all. Those ears are not pointed. They run up the whole side of the head and are stiff. Elves do not have human eyes. They would be creepy to be near and think much the same of you. Look at the player’s handbook. The picture of that elf is not wrong. Socially this would have lead to historical racial strife stronger than black and white.

Their things are special. It is not like their all carry Excalibur and pocket teleportation devices but their things would be seen in much the same way a 12 year old will see a cell phone of a person in their 30s. To the 12 year old the cell phone would require them to deliver news papers and cut lawns for the rest of their life, or 3 years, which ever is longer. To the 30 year old, to get anything less than the I-phone would be pointless as they do not want to think about getting another cell phone in less than 3 years.

People are people no matter who they are. You just have to remember what their lives are like and what their hopes are dreams are.

Rite.

[EDM Entori]

Nov 22, 2009 12:46:46 GMT -5 @ancientempathy said:

Nov 22, 2009 5:16:03 GMT -5 The Supreme Watcher said:

Every time I read one of these topics on elves, and then reflect on how I've seen people play elves, it makes me think of how damned hard it really would be to portray an elf, and how poorly most people go about it.

Not criticizing the posters, since they're elf players that have made impressions on me, just making an observation about elven RPers in general.

Ahh, I understand now If you've seen some disappointments in the game, I can assure you there's a fair amount of good examples that are to your liking I think. They're just bloody hard to come across because they're prancing in woods or some such

Because of their ways too, There is MUCH the community does not see. There is a great deal of thought and inspiration and events that have gone.. underfoot never to be told.

also I agree with Garum the FACT that we are human and we want to play an elf, on set human terms is difficult, because the game was designed for GOld grubbing Duengon diving Adventurers..

Not Self sufficent, gold not needing community dwealing Elves...that live 1000's of years (though HH has proof that elves only Rarely live that long)

You ritefoot has a point they are often in their own little world, We've seen this quite recently, during the silver rush plot, when you literally Had two Very interconnected story lines involving humans/elves, But were very much disconnected, untill they utterly had to be connected...


Kudos to all involved there. and to AE in his design and aid in that, it gave many of us to let characters shine through and develop.

[EDM Entori]

Nov 22, 2009 13:34:47 GMT -5 @dmhighherald said:

Nov 22, 2009 13:25:42 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

I think this is what needs to be remembered. Your asking a human to get into the mindset of playing an elf. Most people don't even know what that means. It could be disappointing, sure, but we'd be crazy to ask or think that everyone that plays an elf is going to spend weeks researching elven psychology. Most people click "elf" as their race and ponder a few movie character elves or something they read in a book. Many adventurers tend to have unique personalities anyhow compared to the common of a race.

I both agree and disagree with parts of this.

I think if a player chooses to play an elven wizard from Evermeet or a priest of Labelas, they need to do some research and conform to the mainstream views of these types of characters. These characters are steeped in centuries of elven tradition.

If a player wants to make a character who has never been a part of a traditional elven community, and is a common adventurer....sure, they don't need to be a model of elven stereotypes.

Both types of characters are fun, I've played the latter type, but not the former, at least in NWN.

or an Elven Wizard AND priest of labelas

[EDM Entori]

Nov 22, 2009 13:11:07 GMT -5 iangallowglas said:

I've heard this argument that people don't play this class well or this race well. When I make a character, I make them and play them how I feel they should be. I feel free to embrace or ignore stereotypes from books, and such, and let the chips fall where they may fall for the character. After all, if all paladins were perfectly lawfull and perfectly good, we'd have no fallen paladins, and if all drow were steeped in evil, their would be no Drizzit.

Just my Opinion.

I certainlly Agree with you.

all I am saying, is Drizzit has a reason why he's a little different, as do that paladin. If something Does not work right up in their mind.


there is a Elven Moonblade holder who never ever returns to evermeet by source after a certain attack, Such a flaw!..

But where I am coming from, is that their must be reasons why characters are outside the norm. yes?

Elves who live in utopia, and do not mind the "dullness" of it, and live in utter communion and happiness, leave.. but why, where does that change them, where does their Self Reliance/sufficency go to gain coin and adventure, or for an Elf to Require "fame and fortune"

[Munroe]

Nov 22, 2009 14:12:50 GMT -5 ritefoot said:

18 is way out.

Last I remember ages are somewhere like this.
Elf - Human.
1 - 1
5 - 2
10 - 3
18 - 4.5
30 - 10
50 - 12
75 - 15 (About when they start adult training)
120 - 18 (When they are able to be heard in public as an adult)
150 - 21
200 - 26
300 - 30 (When they might get married without it being odd)
400 - 40
500 - 50
600 - 60
700 - 70
1000 - death in a cloud of bubbles.

This does not reflect the D&D 3.5e aging table (PHB page 109).

Race	Adulthood	Middle Age	Old Age	Venerable	Maximum Age
Human	15 years	35 years	53 years	70 years	+2d20 years
Half-elf	20 years	62 years	93 years	125 years	+3d20 years
Elf	110 years	175 years	263 years	350 years	+4d% years
Dwarf	40 years	125 years	188 years	250 years	+2d% years
Halfling	20 years	50 years	75 years	100 years	+5d20 years

[catmage]

The ages for elves in FR are slightly different, Munroe. According to Player's Guide to Faerun, all elven sub races reach "adulthood"(Time they are inclined to adventure, if we go by Races of the Wild, to be reffered to further in the post as RotW) at the same age, with non-sun elves progressing at the rate your table shows. Sun elves, however reach middle age at 210, old at 315, and venerable at 420, with the the max life being +6d% years.

Elves have a physical death same as any other standard race, barring death by GREAT BIG MAGICAL DOOM!, and according to RotW, barring events that force it to be otherwise, an elf corpse is cleaned up, dressed in her favorite outfit, and left in a tree for viewing. After a few nights, a cleric of Corellon or Sehanine have a short ceremony culminating in a spell called Dust to Dust, which turns the body into dust, preventing necromancy and hastening the return to nature.

[Munroe]

Is part of your first second sentence missing? I can't tell whether you're quoting Players Guide to Faerun or Races of the Wild, or if you're saying they contain the same information.

I can accept easily enough that Sun Elves age differently. They always did think they were better than everyone else.

[Lady Frost]

Nov 22, 2009 13:34:47 GMT -5 @dmhighherald said:

Nov 22, 2009 13:25:42 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

I think this is what needs to be remembered. Your asking a human to get into the mindset of playing an elf. Most people don't even know what that means. It could be disappointing, sure, but we'd be crazy to ask or think that everyone that plays an elf is going to spend weeks researching elven psychology. Most people click "elf" as their race and ponder a few movie character elves or something they read in a book. Many adventurers tend to have unique personalities anyhow compared to the common of a race.

I both agree and disagree with parts of this.

I think if a player chooses to play an elven wizard from Evermeet or a priest of Labelas, they need to do some research and conform to the mainstream views of these types of characters. These characters are steeped in centuries of elven tradition.

If a player wants to make a character who has never been a part of a traditional elven community, and is a common adventurer....sure, they don't need to be a model of elven stereotypes.

Both types of characters are fun, I've played the latter type, but not the former, at least in NWN.

I completely agree with you HH. Somethings should be researched. I would really like everyone to research their PC first. I've spend oogles of time reading about Loviater and Dambrath and drow and on and on so I feel that Zoe would act and respond to things accurately. I just understand people don't and since nearly nothing requires an application, they don't have to.

[catmage]

Editted my post, hope it makes more sense now.

Since no-FR source I've found discusses just -how- elves age, Races of the Wild is the only available source. Granted, I'm inclined to want to ignore certain parts of it. I prefer the idea of elves aging slower physically, if only because it is the idea I've seen more often.