Paladins, Spells, & Party Members

[ancientempathy]

Pretty basic discussion on the following:

Should a paladin concern spell-preparing other party members with their spells, or worrying about themselves to keep them martially useful in combat?

Does perhaps the type of paladin in question matter? Paladins of Helm and Torm tend to not have the same mindframe as a Paladin of Sune or Illmater. When you look at the core of things in regards to how they use their spell, will their deity choice ultimately matter, or should there be more focus placed on their overall role (class)?

Discuss!

[EDM Neo]

My first thought's that it would depend on the paladin's personality. If they're the sort who's prone to acting without thinking, etc, etc, well, then they probably wouldn't be bothered to discuss spell preparation... but then they'd also probably not have the wisdom to cast spells to begin with.

Similarly, they might not want to discuss it if they're untrusting of their party members, or if there's no time, or anything else along those lines...

But, assuming a paladin with high enough wisdom to cast spells, and at least average intelligence, and they had time to plan with a group and didn't have any real relationship issues with them, I'm not sure there's any reason they'd refuse to try and work together to best ensure the group's safety and success. If they have less then stellar intelligence, they might have trouble deciding on what that might be, but they'd still at least try to figure it out.

To quote your Paladin Essentials thread (which was itself quoting Defenders of the Faith)... "Refusing to lie, cheat, or use poison doesn't limit you and your allies to frontal assaults in broad daylight, either. You are a trained warrior. You can use clever tactics: Set up an attack from an unexpected direction, lure opponents onto unfavorable ground, create flanking opportunities. Be prepared to look at the tactical situation, and be sure to ask your companions for their suggestions—they might surprise you."

[yusef86]

I agree mostly with what Neoseanster says. Just a minor point, I think it should be extremely rare that a paladin would adventure with someone he/she doesn't trust.

But I agree that paladins should act with the intelligence and wisdom they have. If they are the only one in their party who can provide Protection from Evil and that spell is likely to be useful then they should probably plan to cast it on as many in their party as they can.

On the other hand, if there are clerics, mages or bards who can protect the party as well or better, the paladin should coordinate spells with them. Hopefully the paladin is given some freedom to act according to their personality and knightly order (if they have one). Even paladins who serve the same god may choose to act differently. For example consider the orders of the Golden Cup and Companions of the Noble Heart. Both of these orders serve Ilmater. I imagine that paladins of the Order of the Golden Cup are more likely to prepare healing spells while paladins of the Companions of the Noble Heart are more likely to prepare offensive spells.

I think relying on a paladin's spells is an act of desperation for the party. Paladins are primarily warriors, not spell casters. If you are relying on a paladin's spells then you are missing some roles from a well balanced party. But that sometimes happens.

[brian333]

I like to think of a dedicated spellcaster as the team's magical tactician. It's up to him to insure he has the magic available to deal with what his team faces.

To that end, he must make use of whatever spellcasting resources are available, including those of other PC's in his team. A spellcaster who ignores the paladin's spell selection may duplicate spells unnecessarily, or may overlook the potential that the Paladin's buffs may be used on other party members thereby freeing up slots in his more varried and offensive arsenal.

[EDM Entori]

hm,

true. But I -hate- discussing spells, before an outing. more so then who is going to help who. and Very rarely would I do that.

I tend to size people up, find out what sort of weapons/roles they play, and then choose spells based on that roll.

example, sun beam, if I'm traveling with a group of rogues, Awesomesauce, against fleshy targets, if i'm traveling with 4 paladins, not as good, still get the adjustments from the blindness, but not the sneaks. I'd probably use that spell slot for something, like extended protection from spells, besides being godly saves that pallys have already, that'll really go far, esp with mind blank.


I also, think that IC, casters would have much different methods, and combinations from researched spells.

almost like dialects, the red wizard of thay is going to have spells much different from the haraluann, etc.

so I'm not sure my wizard would/should know all of what they could do.

that goes for a paladian, if he goes " I can bless my blade" well to a wizard that goes a long useless way, it's "the power" vs "the art".

IC.

but.... I'm a bit "special ed"

[828stingstingneo]

I hate pegging any class into a stereotypical, one-dimensional role, so I'm all for RPing paladins of different deities differently according to their beliefs. Secondly, if the paladin is intelligent at all, he should choose how to use his spells strategically, depending on who his allies are (as should any smart caster).

However, if you're playing the stereotypical lawful stupid paladin, you should generously buff your allies and charge into the fray, hitting as many spawn triggers as possible before you die.

[jensmann]

I agree a paladin is allowed to act according to his/her wisdom and int score. And it is up to the paladin to decide whatever spells he prepare and if he spares them with his comrades. Most paladins would do it i think, but it is also okay if they don't share the -blessings- with others, cause Paladins are rare and granted with the blessings from thier gods so they can destroy evil.

[Deleted]

Elvewyn oftens sits and discuss spells and strategies and such with the people he is partying with. That is it it is the first time he travelled with them. Elve knows what Korista needs the most for example, and prepares them withotu asking. Alot of fun rp comes from discussing spell preperation before an outing.

As for Paladins, i am not sure if they would share there blessings with party members. A paladins blessings are few, and they are ment to aid the paladin in destroying evil, in my oppinion anyway.

~Sio

[EDM Neo]

A few people have mentioned the paladin's blessings as being limited and therefore that they should be used exclusively for destroying evil. Does that mean they have to do so directly? It might be most beneficial to the group, and therefore most likely to aid in destroying evil, if the paladin can cover someone's protection from evil.

Also, instead of saying they must use them to destroy evil, shouldn't it be dependent on the paladin's order and deity and personal beliefs, as a few people said? Just as one example, the Order of the Golden Cup:

Order of the Golden Cup: This Ilmataran order is dedicated to healing and protecting the sick, innocent, and weak. Its members are the peaceful counterparts to the Companions of the Noble Heart, soothing the hurts of the world rather than seeking out evil to destroy. They are not opposed to such actions, but see their role as something different, though they are not pacifists and never hesitate to fight evil when confronted with it. Paladins of this order can multiclass freely as clerics, divine disciples, and hierophants.

They seem like they're quite devoted to confronting evil when they can, being paladins, but that they put more emphasis on helping people.

[nura]

a paladin with high wisdom and say a few levels about 15 or 16 might have a few blessings to share but wouldnt be a lot on th plus side if your facing undead and the like, paladin blessings are peculiarly efficient.
but I wouldnt base a parties survival on th paladins tiny variety of short duration magics.
paladins a warrior and deicated to the aims of his church he do anything to promote his churches aims and his god but that makes him a great frontliner versus a specific sort of enemy not a support character like a cleric or mage

[jensmann]

As i said before the blessings are given to a paladin from his god, a paladin might consider if it is needed to share his blessings and with whom. He wil not likely share them with someone he does not know, always hides under a hood and is untrustworthy all over, but it is up to each paladin if they want ot share them. At least they shoudl say, Okay you don't need to prepare the spells *insert spells names* for me, i will handle those for myself so you can prepare more spells for others.

but that are just my two cents about it.

[SlothfulCat]

For whats it worth, after playing a paladin of Sune here... she always doled out her "blessings" to where they were needed the most, from level 4 when she started aquiring them. If she could swing 2 Protection from Evils and was traveling with a rogue and a fighter, the other two got the mind wards with her banking on her superior resiliance to magic (IE: will save). And the wizard /always/ got the deathward out of everyone in the party as a priority... everyone else other than the rogue would probably be pretty strong against death magic. The one spell level I was always greedy about was level 3 and GMW, with her lower than average strength for a melee PC, she needed the AB and damage boost to contribute offensively to the party... but then... wasn't above giving someone else the spell and just keeping everything busy. This was a paladin with 14intellect and 14 wisdom.

But as a Sunite, Zoriya as a rule generally cared about her companion's well being more than her own, and being a primarily defensive-style fighter was willing to do long drawn out duels with enemies instead of demanding to have the spells in reserve for a very quick kill.

[The Supreme Watcher]

I believe that a Paladin will provide their spells to anyone and anything, assuming that the subject is good of heart, law-abiding, or in need of aid.

If a Paladin is spending a week in Targos, and during that week a person falls ill and several others get wounded in, say, a crane accident, I would expect the paladin to be the first to offer their services as a healer.

If a Paladin is going through town and there's a robbery, the Paladin should throw his lot in with the town's guards, providing them with magical assistance (and healing) where it is needed.

In my opinion, Paladins should NOT cheapen their divine abilities by handing out buffs and such to people who could otherwise provide them for themselves at a GP cost. I also do NOT believe paladins would be expected to assist people of "questionable" morality, where "questionable" could mean anything from possibly evil alignment, chaotic tendencies, or even atheism.

Paladins are (typically) sworn to oaths of charity, which often manifests itself in a tithe to their church, but I can see use of the Paladin's divine gifts in service to a specific temple's patrons - once again, healing the wounded, curing the sick, dispelling curses and the like - as a viable means of fulfilling their tithe.

When it comes down to the nitty gritty, a Paladin's spells are bestowed upon them, not their party, and barring an urgent problem, the Paladin's spells should be used on the Paladin before any others.

Edit: I forgot to add a note about the Paladin's "personality."

It has been said that Paladins' personality and order changes the mindset of the Paladin towards use of their spells and the role they play in the Paladin's life. This is true, but at no point should the Paladin's personality interfere with the virtues of righteousness and compassion. The Paladin whose personality causes actions such as this is in a dangerous position, and is opening up the potential for a fall. Personality and order, in my opinion, should change the Paladin's spell set, not how he uses them.