Law enforcement and players

[Islodain]

I have seen many people taking the law into thier own hands in Isinhold alot.

Are there any players that are really "empowered" to do such things?

I had seen one saying they are a purple dragon, another saying they are Red militia serving under a purple dragon, one said he was order of elves and upholding the law. (after his sneak attack shot in my back)

I am just wondering if and what players have the authority to do such things.

I do not want to rob anyone of roleplay experience, but I also have had some problems in the past with these kinds of experiences. The power to arrest, or the chance to "jump" someone can be be abused very easily.

[Kolfrosta]

As far as I know, only Purple Dragons and war wizards (i.e. that's read "the DMs") are the authority of the law in Cormyr. No, not even the Silver Shield is Law Enforcement.

Now, this doesn't mean they don't support the law, and will do what they can to aid law enforcement just short of arresting anyone, and preferrably by not killing anyone.

[Neathrshdw80]

Anyone can *claim* they are something they are not. If I claimed to be the newest lord of some kingdom no one has ever heard of, it's up to the PC to decide if I am full of crap or if they want to believe it.

Just RP it out, and let the DMs deal with them as required. It can make for an interesting RP experience if someone is PRETENDING to be a Purple Dragon and a REAL Purple Dragon shows up.....

[kenny26]

Neathrshdw80 is right. this doesn't have to be a problem.

but on the other hand it's a very serious subject and players can be very abusive by claiming to be an authority.
you might not think of it as a rich RP experience if a player interupts an otherwise great conversation and refuses very stubbornly to leave you alone 'cause he claims to be the law.

thankfully this has never happened to me or anyone that i know of, but it could happen. and i'll admit that i probably woldn't have the patience to keep everything IC in the above mentioned example, and things would turn ugly.

but to answer the question, to my knowledge only the DMs can be the law and no player has the right to arrest you, or judge you.
the exception is if the player is IC and his char sees a reason to act against another char, but even then there are limits to how much he can do to another player.

[Kolfrosta]

As long as someone isn't impersonating a Purple Dragon...as well as impersonating a DM at the same time.....not a wise thing to do.

And since the Purple Dragons are the DMs......be wary in trying that stunt.

[Boogiedk]

Gero carries a purple dragon armor and if people ask if i am a purple dragon I will answer "No but I aspire to be *nods*" If i see people breaking the "law" of Isinhold , I will gently turn them to the signs and not make further notice of it other than a strong dislike for the person. . . . . However . . . . . A law I will take into my own hand is the "NO carnivorus or "dangerous" familiars within the city limits" . . . And i have received alot of "bitching" for slaying a "hell houndesque" creature in Isinhold. . *shrugs*


Be good
B.

[manyasone]

I think that players should enforce laws if a member of a group like the Shields. Perhaps (just so no one claims to be a law enforment officer) you should create a badge item or something that they can show other players who question their authority.

Just a suggestion...

[kenny26]

yeah something that proves them to be an authority, both oocly and icly.
that would help reduce the amount of impersonalters i think..

[Talus]

*watches all the Rogue types in the corner drooling over the idea of stealing somones badge*Yeah I think this would be a great idea. um...what are you looking at? Badges? Badges? I don't have no Stinking Badge. ;D

[tskfrc58]

...hmmm...maybe now would be a good time to field-test a certain "sure-thing" funds-generating plan. Roleplaying a "toll-collector" (um...yeah, thats it) for use of the king's road. Of course, the money doesnt have to actually GO to the king...a perfect scheme! After all, who is going to question the laws of the land? Especially miles and miles from the nearest seat of government...hmmm.....

[Daresh]

I would think role-playing a character who assists the Crown in upholding the laws....is absolutely no different than role-playing an assassin, blackguard, or thief who flaunts them. (re: see the numerous threads upholding how important it is to be allowed to be evil).

I again point to the fundamental flaw in 'law enforcement' in NWN; a PC can do anything they want - from assuming a Red Dragon form to walking around with a banner of Cyric or Bane (both of which I've seen) - right in front of a Purple Dragon or town militia with no consequence, unless a DM happens to be using that NPC at the time.

And remember the time setting NWN and FRC emulates - roughly medieval. It was a time that the Government ruled by might of the sword and any threat to the Government was dealt with by immediate execution. Or, if you happened to be a close relative of the Monarchy, imprisonment for many years, then execution.

If anyone seriously annoyed the authorities, they'd be hunted by every Purple Dragon, War Wizard, milita, and guard in the Realm. Since that isn't happening, I think there is a need for PC based law enforcement. The PC could never show his face in civilization again. And it wouldn't be hard for the War Wizards of the High Clerics of the Realm to invoke arcane and/or Divine aid in identifying the cause of the annoyance....

Done well, of course. A badly played law authority would be just as annoying as the badly played 'evil' PC who kills everyone he sees 'because I'm evil, dude, and that's what evil people do!'.

[theseeker]

sounds good long as we do not get to many lynch mobs running around.. seen it happen attacking on sight cause ïm good man its what i do "types...many good pc have died that way trying to take the law into there own hands no trial kill first .. most of the time breaking more laws than the so called bad guy.. ive seen it first hand PvP in town ..most times i think its new pc summons etc , or some one told to put there weapon away... then killed cause they do not comply.. it can put first timers off. thow if rp good it makes things interesting.. mayby not to mutch deadly force for a simple small crime

[Munroe]

That reminds me of another server I played. A drow was in town and one of the "good" characters killed it. Another good character saw her kill it and said "That's murder" so she was put on trial for murder and eventually found innocent on the grounds that it was a drow, and drow were outlaws in the kingdom. The ruling was a death sentence on drow meaning kill on sight.

That character was later sentenced to ten years in the army for killing a man in cold-blood over romantic issues. Luckily he was able to be Raised but she did it right in the middle of town with a number of witnesses. Murder is murder.

I'm guessing FRC doesn't have a public court system? Trials can be fun sometimes but they also can be very tiring and/or stressful for a DM. I once logged seven hours in court in a single session as a player witness. After that the DM tried to keep trials closer to two hours. The courts in that land had a Justiciar and magistrates who served her, and it was up to the Justiciar or acting magistrate to make the ruling. Each court DM had a different magistrate with a unique personality so a criminal might hope to get one magistrate over another.

And lastly: Please do not assume the Purple Dragon Knights are doing nothing. The other day when the woman had the undead dominated in Isinhold, her excuse was "The Purple Dragon Knights don't have a problem with it, why do you?" Several other players used this response as to why they did nothing about it. "The Purple Dragon Knights don't have a problem, why do you?" Uh... the Purple Dragon Knights are blank faced NPCs unless there is a DM around, assume they would be doing something! Ah well.

[Manshin]

People keep assuming FRC is based on our current legal system. Keep in mind, the middle ages were a brutal time where suspecting one of a crime was often enough to win them a ride on the big wooden crucifix. The fact that this Raven guy walks through town brandishing a flag of Cyric, and the silver shields and red militia bicker about if they have enough evidence to bring him in for "questioning" always makes me smile.
Imagine, even the king of England walking through feudal Europe brandishing a big satanic flag. If you dont think the catholics would have had him on fire in the town square in two seconds, than you need to read your history. "Not" mind you, that this is feudal Europe, but I do think that we are a bit too civil in Isinhold for realism's sake. As has been pointed out, the NPC guards dont really seem interested in anythiing outside of direct attacks on other players (Though you can contatact a DM if you think guards should be doing something), so that leaves only one source of law enforcement... PCs. Granted, you will have crooked cops, but that adds to the fun. I think that when "Venom the Blooddrinker" struts into town and parks his butt on the log, and begins talking about his plans to be a hired killer, it should be well within the law for a silver shield to bust his ass on suspicion alone. Fair? Probably not, but then again, this would certainly force "villans" to be a bit more cunning, instead of rubbing their eveeel into the faces of Paladins and than laughing about how the Paladins cant do anything because they dont have proof. There is nothing I think is funnier than when an "evil" character is offended that he is being persicuted without evidence of having commeted a crime. No one is angrier at being ripped off than a theif.

[Grozer]

Manshin said:

Granted, you will have crooked cops, but that adds to the fun. I think that when "Venom the Blooddrinker" struts into town and parks his butt on the log, and begins talking about his plans to be a hired killer, it should be well within the law for a silver shield to bust his ass on suspicion alone. Fair? Probably not, but then again, this would certainly force "villans" to be a bit more cunning...

If a bad guy starts openly bragging about his plans like that in a very public place he deserves the grief I'm sure he would receive. I definitely agree with your point about "being a bit more cunning". Couldn't have said it better myself!

Manshin said:

There is nothing I think is funnier than when an "evil" character is offended that he is being persicuted without evidence of having commeted a crime. No one is angrier at being ripped off than a theif.

LOL... ok so you have a point, but there is nothing wrong with trying to manipulate the situation and use a PCs own beliefs against them! Such is sheer joy. But then again, one should always be prepared for it to backfire...

[Jerico]

The big issue is that no player group has been issued the authority to enforce law. The Silver Sheilds and the Red Militia have to abide by the PvP rules of the game.

No player laws can be put into place unless it has been authorized by the DMs.

It is funny though how PCs blaim inactive NPCs for their inaction. And they blaim other PCs who can not break server rules of PvP for inaction.

[soulfien]

Since this was brought up, I'll interject. The current legal system of FRC is laughable- of course, you see this on all other servers as well.

If someone comes into town and is a known villian, but too much for the guards to handle, then it is up to the heroes. If a known hero smites a known villian, then they should not be held for murder. The "no fighting in town" law is meaningless when the heroes are the only ones being held accountable because the villians always claim to be the victim.

Example: Villian kills a PC in cold blood and runs up to a gaurd before the PC's party member catches up to him and slays him. Now, the PC (the hero) is arrested for murder and the villian is raised and exhonerated.

Once or twice I would expect a decision like this, but when the villians continuously get away with murder it begins to get disheartening.

There have been many times that a Cyrist has walked through town carrying a banner and the heroes have had to ignore it to avoid being arrested for "taking the law into their own hands". Let's see a knight or wizard in Isinhold take on a high or even epic villian PC. The standard militia is only up to lvl 5 as no high level PC would retire and work in the town guard. High level wizards only serve as protectors to nobles who can pay them to do so. Usually by letting them have a tower within the city limits at no cost to them.

When Raven was slain in Isinhold, he was let go and all the heroes were lectured about breaking the law. Now, everyone knows that Raven is a villian and that he's too much for the local militia.

We have to keep in mind good vs. evil in our little fantasy world. It's not just evil vs. good.

[Blackstaff]

There are some good points being made here and there could be some simple solutions to the law and order problem.

Why can't any organisation of individuals if they so wish RP with the DM and get a royal charter that says that they are an organisation that is permitted to carry out the law in whatever town(s) the charter specifies. They can then arrest, fine and/or attack any lawbreakers according to the law that is set down for everybody to know eg. "sir, you have been warned previously not to summon your succubus in town. According to the town law, paragraph 2 subsection 3 you are banned from entering Isinhold for the next two days"

This might sound like a lot of work to put in place but who said law enforcement was easy. Even in medieval times there was a diffrentiation in punishments. You didn't generally get your head cut off for littering so the charter wouldn't be a license for the LG paladin sheriff to execute anybody that he doesn't like the look off.

Since the DM's cannot be everywhere at all times, which is represented well in the game by the country being in chaos, the crown would probably be happy for someone to keep law and order in Isiinhold or any other city in the meantime

[thogrimur]

One of the ideas that I had been playing at this week was an attempt to give the guards themselves a little more authority to handle situations that erupt from time to time within the city limits...

I was visiting a friend from my buddy list who happened to be in this unnamed other server. I saw him in there and popped in mostly to say hello, as it had been weeks since I had seen him online...

While I was walking the streets of this other server, one of the city guards walked up and told me to put my crossbow away while within the city limits. I did, and the guard thanked me and I continued on my merry way for a few minutes before I thought to myself...put my weapon away or WHAT? So I pulled my weapon out again and went to find another guard. The guard again told me to put my weapon away...but this time I refused...to make the long story short, the guard warned me a total of three times, each warning more aggressive than the last, before he finally turned hostile and attacked me. At this point I put my weapon away and began to beg for my life...but it was too late. Luckily I stabilized. And luckily the guard didn't remain hostile after kicking the snot out of me, so I was able to get up and limp my way back to the inn. I was still left wondering how tough I would have to be to actually defeat the guard in combat, but I bet the strength of the guards could be modified to where one or two guards should be able to handle any potential infractions of the law within the cities of Cormyr.

If the guards were beaten, I think that any do-gooder would then have clear justification for the citizen arrest or execution of the offender.

I do believe that I found the script that would allow the guards to behave in this fashion, and the script also allows for the guards to have a bit of racism towards unhelmed half orcs (or other races that might be looked down upon) - sadly, I have been trying to recreate this effect from my own toolset with no luck...but I am just learning to script myself...

I don't know if maybe you DM's have something like this in the works already or if you are interested, but I think it would add a nice touch to the law enforcement within cities. PvP involves weapons, so PvP within the towns would draw the guards over regardless of whether there was a DM around...

Anyway, I just thought I'd share - if you are interested in checking this out, let me know and I will send you a PM with a link to the script and even the name of the server where I saw this in effect.

[thogrimur]

(Heh. I also find myself thinking of the way that in BG2 the unauthorized use of arcane magic within city limits would trigger a spawn of guards and wizards to deal with the offenders...)

Posted by: Blackstaff Posted on: Mar 21st, 2005, 4:33pm

Why can't any organisation of individuals if they so wish RP with the DM and get a royal charter that says that they are an organisation that is permitted to carry out the law in whatever town(s) the charter specifies.

This is an excellent idea considering....

§ Adventurers in the nation of Cormyr are required to have a charter from the crown. A long history of gurilla warfare and running skirmishes on the border has made the royalty sensitive to armed persons within the realm. A chartered adventuring company must pay a 1000 gp fee, and a further tax of 300 gp a year, due at the anniversary of the procurement of the charter. There is a 20 gp late fee for every late day, up to 10 days after the tax is due. After that, the charter is suspended and any persons bearing arms under the charter are arrested. All members of the adventuring company must bear a symbol or badge of the company when in the nation, and membership of the group is noted in Suzail. Changes to the membership of an adventuring group must be reported as soon as possible at High Horn, Suzail, or Marsember.*

*this law is not enforced in the city of Arabel

This info was gleaned from the Lore of the Lands / Info on Cormyr thread...

Again, I imagine that there are greater minds than my own already working to implement this into the realm but I thought I'd throw it into the sauce just in case it had been overlooked. (And because work today is REALLY slow and I am trying to get through this last hour...thanks to all for listening!)