Sayings that work/don't work

[ShadowCatJen]

It's very easy sometimes to let some common sayings slip into the way your character speaks. However, there is a limit to what sayings will work and those that do not in a fantasy medieval setting.

For instance, something like 'piece of cake' is easily acceptable. Cake would certainly exist in Faerun. However, a sentence like this:

"All systems are go for me to be in the Bardic Academy."

This is just seems all wrong to my personal RP sensibilities. Not only is this a modern day reference to the space program, but even if Spelljammers would be involved I don't think even they would use the term.

So when you have your character use some figure of speech please do make sure that it's at least well within the realm of the universe we play in.

[hexer]

;D Well said.

[Dachshund]

That's very true.

I recently caught myself saying to Kam that he would get twenty percent off any price he got for selling an item for me. It then occured to me that percentages perhaps aren't in use in this setting, so I quickly changed it to "one-twentieth".

Sounded more medieval I think.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

snubletraad said:

That's very true.

I recently caught myself saying to Kam that he would get twenty percent off any price he got for selling an item for me. It then occured to me that percentages perhaps aren't in use in this setting, so I quickly changed it to "one-twentieth".

Sounded more medieval I think.

Someone is getting ripped off then (being that 20% is really 1/5). Percentages may or may not have been used ... it is hard to determine. I suppose the meaning behind them can be represented other ways.

[marklar]

i accidently do that stuff all the time, just habit i guess. Even still this really isn't nessicarily medieval times, in essance it is but at the same time it's not...anywho if it were few Pc's talk like they would have back then.

i don't see why percentage wouldn't be around, the general public wasn't smart but those people who were educated weren't that far behind in the math skillz.

[ShadowCatJen]

Percentages are certainly something that's passable... especially since I'm terrible at fractions. I mean, my character might have mad math skillz, but I don't. Gimme my calculator!

But really, that shouldn't be a problem. It's not something that is blatantly modern.

[Dachshund]

Percentages are good then. ;D

(and I did mean five percent! lol, stupid danes mixing up things.)

[Nim_White]

A very late contribution, but this topic interests me.

Don't percentages depend on the concept of 'zero' and numerals having 'place values'? This was a late mediaeval/early renaissance development in Western Europe. So a scholar or noble might know the concept, but the average commoner or peasant would not?

It is, incidentally, a feature of modern Chinese (or at least modern Cantonese) that there is no direct translation available of 'per cent' - the concept is understood but one has to use a bit of a circumlocution to express it.

And following on from 'percentages' I doubt the average person in Cormyr would understand 'mark-up' or 'discount'; although I have no idea when these terms became current IRL, I think they can't be very old.

[DM Justicar - Creator of FRC]

mezereon said:

A very late contribution, but this topic interests me.

Don't percentages depend on the concept of 'zero' and numerals having 'place values'? This was a late mediaeval/early renaissance development in Western Europe. So a scholar or noble might know the concept, but the average commoner or peasant would not?

It is, incidentally, a feature of modern Chinese (or at least modern Cantonese) that there is no direct translation available of 'per cent' - the concept is understood but one has to use a bit of a circumlocution to express it.

And following on from 'percentages' I doubt the average person in Cormyr would understand 'mark-up' or 'discount'; although I have no idea when these terms became current IRL, I think they can't be very old.

I preface what I am saying with an assumption that we all temper our fantasy world around our own understandings. That is to say that D&D was originally conceived as a game called Chain mail and that it made massive assumptions that the player would abide by the laws of physics on earth and history as we know it. D&D fantasized on this concept but still maintained that we would always balance the game based on universal truths. My intro sucks but I hope you understand why I preface it at all...

I for one, totally agree with your concept - however:

www.mathmojo.com/interestinglessons/originofzero/originofzero.html

Arguably it is said that another Italian from Pisa invented the zero, but this last article suggests otherwise. Maybe he popularized it, and hey, that's good enough for the modern era. Pop culture always wins and those who have the savvy to write themselves into history always win.

And percent is... Latin/Roman:

www.mathgoodies.com/lessons/vol4/meaning_percent.html

We do need to regard the campaign of NWN/FRC/Faerun as one that is based in a Renaissance period. For terms of basic digestion consider in earth years it is somewhere in the 1500's. So, I just agreed then readily disagreed. Though I do think what you are saying about peasants is totally valid.

Imagine the gameworld as High Renaissance culture in any given RL country that frames it properly for you. I personally liken it to France/Italy of the late 14'-15's with magic and orcs and dragons, etc.. but that's just me.

Good thought and cheers!

[moulinous]

and with some of the other races, like dwarves and the marvelous engineers they are, would probably know about percentages as they seem like they would be more of a math based society unlike elves who would be more literature based. *shrugs*course i am really tired and just thinking out loud on paper...errr, computer screen i mean.

[Nim_White]

Isn't engineering a bit different - do you need a 'zero' to do plane geometry? The pyramids and Stonehenge were built with ramps and manpower, to plans which could have been worked out with sand tables and string. And the Romans built their aqueducts and arenas using a mathematical notation which had no concept of 'place' whatsoever. Even in Hong Kong only 40 years ago, the traditional boatyards built sea-going fishing junks without really measuring anything at all - the boatbuilders learnt a pattern of junk when young and always built the same size and type thereafter

I think it must depend on status in life, access to education, and a need for some sort of advanced maths. I failed to become competent with logarithms when I was learning maths at school, and never needed them after I left (of course logs are just not used in this modern age of calculators and computers) but I grew up 'in trade' as they say, and never had any trouble totting up accounts or adding up a customer's bill......

[catmage]

I would think all wizards would have a good grasp of mathmatics and thus understand percentages, since their's is an intelligence based path to magic.

[DM Justicar - Creator of FRC]

mezereon said:

Isn't engineering a bit different - do you need a 'zero' to do plane geometry? The pyramids and Stonehenge were built with ramps and manpower, to plans which could have been worked out with sand tables and string. And the Romans built their aqueducts and arenas using a mathematical notation which had no concept of 'place' whatsoever. Even in Hong Kong only 40 years ago, the traditional boatyards built sea-going fishing junks without really measuring anything at all - the boatbuilders learnt a pattern of junk when young and always built the same size and type thereafter

I think it must depend on status in life, access to education, and a need for some sort of advanced maths. I failed to become competent with logarithms when I was learning maths at school, and never needed them after I left (of course logs are just not used in this modern age of calculators and computers) but I grew up 'in trade' as they say, and never had any trouble totting up accounts or adding up a customer's bill......

You are talking about a society that didn't require the zero for it's models. I am not entirely certain that the zero fits into engineering at all as I am not an engineer.

I do know that architecture of the late 14-15 hundreds was vastly more complex than that of ancient Greece or even Rome, Egyptian, etc... and the Renaissance folks *did* have the zero. Coincidence? Maybe... but let's get some facts. I have to leave town and look forward to hearing this when I get back.

I am still not entirely certain what you are arguing considering that NWN2 takes place in an era with castles and complex buildings rather than stone plane geometry monuments.

But it is your argument, not mine.

[♥Zach♥]

Leaving the subject of math ;D

I don't think the word "cool" would really be a word used to describe the tempretures and not how you say "The bee's knees" or "Top Drawer" ;D

I know sayings like...uhh "By a hairless gnolls uncle!" would work in Faerun but not "Thats far out man!"

[Paragon]

Well, I'm certain that I use certain anachronistic statements and phrases all the time while roleplaying. This is directly due to modern culture and mass media, and is impossible to prevent. I could speak in almost pure middle English, and that still would contain a lot of modern thought and phrases because it's unlikely for me to unlearn thought patterns just for roleplaying.

That having been said, I'm certain that I've seen hundreds upon hundreds of phrases and slang that come from modern time in the game, not only used by players, but NPC's as well. What's even more prominent is the fact that modern ideas, (such as deviations of thought that come directly from the middle ages,) saturate the attitudes and actions of all characters and players.

Therefore, I'm pretty forgiving of most deviations, like people saying, "Let's go hang out and kill giants," and "That'd be really awesome," but I won't waste a lot of time with anyone that uses abbreviations, like "THX" or "ok" over and over while speaking to me IC.

Even if someone uses words like that, I still don't consider it a big deal, if at the very least I can tell they're trying to roleplay.

[Munroe]

"OK" is a very modern word, it is an abbreviation for a mispelling. (O.K. was short for Oll Korrect, a mispelling of "all correct") That having been said, "OK" is the most pervasive casual conversational term in the world and I personally have no problem with someone saying it. OK is not a shortcut for "okay." "Okay" is an attempt to make "OK" seem more "wordy." The closest synonym I can think of to be used in-game is "alright," which is also a casual spelling.

From dictionary.com:

[Origin: initials of a facetious folk phonetic spelling, e.g., oll or orl korrect representing all correct, first attested in Boston, Massachusetts, in 1839, then used in 1840 by Democrat partisans of Martin Van Buren during his election campaign, who allegedly named their organization, the O.K. Club, in allusion to the initials of Old Kinderhook, Van Buren's nickname, derived from his birthplace Kinderhook, New York] —Usage note Few Americanisms have been more successful than ok, which survived the political campaign of 1840 that fostered it, quickly lost its political significance, and went on to develop use as a verb, adverb, noun, and interjection. The expression was well known in England by the 1880s. Today ok has achieved worldwide recognition and use. It occurs in all but the most formal speech and writing.

—Usage note The form alright as a one-word spelling of the phrase all right in all of its senses probably arose by analogy with such words as already and altogether. Although alright is a common spelling in written dialogue and in other types of informal writing, all right is used in more formal, edited writing.

[Masterbard Alyster Darkharp]

I just try and modify whatever sayings I am going to use if they need it. For instance instead of saying hindsight is 20/20, I usually say, hindsight is always seen through elven eyes.

[Driderman]

feanorre said:

I just try and modify whatever sayings I am going to use if they need it. For instance instead of saying hindsight is 20/20, I usually say, hindsight is always seen through elven eyes.

Heh... why not through the eye of the Beholder?

At any rate, we all have to step carefully around modern sayings and such. No quicker way for removing all attention from your character than using terms like 'u' instead of you and the likes...
But of course, people trying to use words such as 'thee' and 'thou' and failing to use them correctly can break the immersion just as much. Perhaps we should have a guide to those expressions?

But I digress...
As far as I've seen most people are quite adept at using a language that isn't exactly modern but also not so medieval so as no one understands it. So basically, we're all good for the moment. Yay!

...So why am I even posting...?
;D

[Artemisa]

Not even a day ago since last I, by accident, blurted out the 'modern' expression 'what's up?', to which the other PC replied with leaning back, gazing up the the sky describing dotty clouds and whatnot. Hehe - we all slip occasionally and behind my monitor I could only laugh at it. It was a very natural way for the other PC to react ;D

I'm easy going, as long as people do their best. Though I wholeheartedly agree that certain modern terms should never, ever be used in the medieval setting we play in, most of them already mentioned in posts above.

[ShadowCatJen]

I'll certainly admit to a slip up from time to time. Like the term "right off the bat". I had one of my characters say that and no one really caught it and I didn't realize it until a couple of minutes later. It's a baseball term, and unless the sport had somehow made it's way to Faerun I was completely off.

.....*snicker*

Play off season and the Waterdeep Giants have finally made it, but can they beat the Calimshan Scorpions? And will the Luskan Blood Socks trade their failing half-orc barbarian ace hitter for a decent elven pitcher? The Daggerdale Wizards once again have a losing season, will they dump the lackluster Elminster as manager in favor of fan favorite Blackstaff? And the controversy at the last game between the Aglarond Angels and the Thay Sabers. Did the Sabers use magic at the last pivotal game between these two long time rivals? Latest word from the FBL Officials. All this and more, right after these messages....

*ahem*.......

Sometimes, term and phrases are so ingrained into the common vernacular that it's far too easy to just use it without thinking.

In regards to the word "zero", it's true that the concept of it may be questionable as far as Faerun is concerned, specifically with the uneducated working class commoners. However, even a farmer knows that when he has no eggs, he has no eggs. He may not know the word "zero" to represent it, but he certainly knows that he "ain't got any". So the concept of there being none of something is still there, just not using the specific word zero.

Merchants, on the other hand, may have come up with the term by now. Since there is a monetary substance in the coin of the realm it needs to be counted and kept track of by writing it down. I would especially say that since there is shipping of cargo ship over great distances, mathematics and, thus, the term zero, would be used.

But that's really kinda getting nit picky on it. Long as you don't have some dumb farmer NPC doing algebraic equations in the dirt then things should be fine.

[moulinous]

I have foud that using sayings from today but changhing them a bit hlps me. Things like right off the bat become right off the ogres club...or just a few minutes i say two swishes a of a dragons behind me be ready...almost any saying can be changed to somethin cool...one of my favs is $hit happens and i changed it to Th'ak happens...th'ak being the name for dung in dwarf.
I have quite a few of these like azna for ale and even the big f bomb i sometimes use in dwarf without typing /dm[] so i do not drop them on the dms. It helps...alot. course now when i am coaching my girls i sometimes get mad and yell th'ak at them too...anyhows, hope some of this helps....

[Thanatos]

There seems to be a bit of an oversight in this thread that almost any mis-used expression can easily be covered up IC. What we type - English/Common - is more often than not our character's second language. Usually our character's first language would be decided by race (Elven, Dwarven, etc.) or region (Chondathan, Illuskan, etc.)

I generally consider myself a capable enough writer when it comes to English, but everyone makes mistakes. I once caught flak for calling a follower of Oghma an 'Ogmite' (I forgot the 'h')... Excuse? Illuskan's my character's mother tongue and as such, he didn't know the Common name for someone following Oghma was an Oghmanyte.

Granted this doesn't excuse a lot of the anachronistic phrases sometimes used... It is one way to go about it. Lets face it, people who say "Lets go hang out by the Giant's lair" are probably a) not reading these forums and b) not really that interested in RP to begin with. But for those of us who occassionally make these silly mistakes... My two cents!

[btaf90]

If we are going to discuss language in the game, I think it is important to keep in mind that D&D is, and always has been, an anachronism.

This was one of the first servers that I logged onto and when I first read the rules I actually thought to myself, "Holy crap! They want me to type in Middle English? I can barely read Middle English..."

Cormyr is not even close to historically accurate. But then, it's not trying to be. D&D is an eclectic mix of a variety different mythological traditions that is only loosely set in the middle ages/early Renaissance.

So if Grumm wants to hum dwarven opera (a musical form that is a by-product of 18th century Romanticism) then I can't really pick on him because, as he so aptly pointed out to me...there weren't dwarves in the middle ages either...

[ShadowCatJen]

D&D certainly is an anachronism and some flexibility is sort of needed when in regards to the way language is used.

However, I'll still bring it all back to my original point that there are most certainly some terms and words that should not be used. Period.

For instance:

I ran across a player who had a very bad habit of having his characters use the word "cool". As to say, "Hey, that's cool." I playfully bopped him on the head over tells over that one a few times and the first time he used the term I had my character reply that it wasn't cool, it was the middle of summer and blazing hot.

Or earlier today I overheard someone say "can you give me a ballpark figure". The player, realizing the mistake quickly recovered with, "Oh, I doubt you dwarves have played the same childhood games human children do. Let me rephrase...."

It is very easy to make the mistake as the words are used quite often in our "modern" vernacular. The main intent of the post is to just keep people on their toes. ^_^

[btaf90]

I don't disagree with the principle. I agree that appropriate language is an important part of the overall realism of the RP experience.

But if we get ourselves all tied up in knots about it, that too can hinder the RP. So I just wanted remind everyone not to stress _too_ much about it.

I try to stay in character, but I must confess that my sense of irony does me in everytime...

Apologies to Max for the rock, paper, scissors joke the other day...

[Driderman]

In my not-so-humble opinion, rock-paper-scissors is universal and timeless. It has always existed, it will always exist and it exists everywhere...