Scrying Poll

[DM Justicar - Creator of FRC]

So as the question is posed... you can vote for scrying or certain degrees of allowance. This poll does not mean it is allowed even if it turns out 100% of the people voting want it. This poll is so the DM's can have a good look at the issue and make a rational decision.

This discussion started here:

frc.proboards37.com/index.cgi?board=roleplayideas&action=display&thread=1143247832

Please vote and voice your definitive opinion thus far.

[Foomanchu]

first vote, woot! lol yeah there is my opinion on the topic

[heimdall]

I could see it happening. But ONLY through the aid of a DM. If there happens to be no DM on, or the DM is too busy to aid with the attempt....RP it that the attempt has failed.

With no DM to aid with this, the potential for metagaming and abuse is just glaring.

[ShadowCatJen]

Heavily agree with Heimdall on this one. Should only be allowed via DM intervention. Otherwise things will get too metagame-ish.

[olwentheold]

Yeah, what Heimdall said.

[Talus]

Yeah I don't have any problem with it, if a DM is doing it. I have seen it used really well with DM help.

[DM Justicar - Creator of FRC]

shadowcatjen said:

Heavily agree with Heimdall on this one. Should only be allowed via DM intervention. Otherwise things will get too metagame-ish.

I couldn't agree more with Heimdall and the Shadowcat!

shadowcatjen said:

Should only be allowed via DM intervention.

A DM must be involved at all times!

shadowcatjen said:

Should only be allowed via DM intervention. Otherwise things will get too metagame-ish.

My only fear is that things will get out of hand even if DM's are involved. What do we do then?

Our DM's have been hand picked for their responsibility to the rules and the community. They are (of course) also human. I fear most the manipulative wolf wearing the cloak of sheep. There are so many examples over the last few years of FRC's existence that I shudder to think.

If you are all so sure this will "work out" I hope you know what you are asking for.

This practice is still illegal until the curtain falls. Illegal, mind you. IE... bannable.

[hexer]

I like the idea of scrying. It is a very handy tool that sadly NWN hasn't the means to properly manifest. Having said that, I thing it is a great possibility if given a DM and means to avoid being scried. Keep people on their toes and ever watchful.

5k for that handy anti-scrying ward for your guildhall. 12.5k for that nifty amulet of non-detection. Living in paranoia, priceless.


;D ;D ;D

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

*is dressed like a sheep* I don't know what justicar is talking about, there is no one around that is manipulative *smiles with wolf fangs*.

LET THE METAGAMING BEGIN!!!

Not like i haven't had to deal with it before.

[Grozer]

My vote is needs more discussion. Yes I know we have beat this to death already but call me a cynic and arrogant, since I feel like Ranan has the most to lose here. So ya I am voting for selfish reasons...

Truthfully, the basis for my vote is more about how I see scrying. Specifically scrying to me is NOT something any mage or cleric should be able to do, period. I don't care what the 3.5 rules state I never imagined this power would be attainable just by anyone.

For a cleric, he would need the divine help of his deity only gained through extreme loyalty and devotion, i.e. high level status. For a mage, I see PCs who want scrying help to seek out a powerful mage with mastery of the arcane and many years of study, not just any PC.

Secondly, I equate scrying to detect evil and lets not even go back to that debate that was batted around for months and months.

Thirdly, I disagree with the ruleset. I don't believe its a simple DC and will save. For reasons above it should be much harder for the average mage or cleric to attempt this.

To take it a step further, if scrying was truely attainable I am certain "some" characters would have researched, developed some kind of cloaking or offset magic to deflect the attempt. Speaking personally, I would expect someone like Ranan or for that matter Hrothgar as devout as they are to their gods to have some way to cloak themselves. Of course gods could care less about one or two followers but then again they grant spells and other divine powers so its not without reason that they wouldnt help in this instance.

Lastly, Quad mentioned that in some cases he was contacted when someone tried to scry for him (during the kidnapping plot) and he obliged. No offense Quad but I also dont want to leave this open to player preference or decision as to when and what is relayed in response to a scry attempt. Not that I dont trust Quad but we need it to be consistent whatever the decision. Good example, it was decided a long time ago detect evil was not available until a potential game device was developed. I won't go into the whys you can read the thread, but... the point is I know some players have choosen to play along when some Pally's send a tell "detect evil: are you evil?" I ignore it. But the fact that others do answer sets a precedent. I used to respond detect evil is not used on this server, RP is I am cloaking my alignment. And the response would be, "but others allow it."

Anyway my point is consistency so there is no confusion.

So bottom line, if we allow scrying I suggest we tweak the DC/saves/etc to make it more difficult and realistic and it wouldn't be available to just any PC, but controlled by an NPC.

*shrugs* just my two coppers... (whoever used that line before I owe you a buck for using it ;D )

[Grozer]

quadhund said:

*is dressed like a sheep* I don't know what justicar is talking about, there is no one around that is manipulative *smiles with wolf fangs*.

LET THE METAGAMING BEGIN!!!

Not like i haven't had to deal with it before.

ROFL... I just posting my reasons against this and didnt even mention the metagaming issue, but even though he is being funny he is quite right. Hmmm... now I can find Hrothgar anytime I want huh.... nice!

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

*pouts* Fine I wont let anyone else metagame where I am at for your sake, you selfish wanna be sharran! Anyways, consistency is key i suppose, so until further notice, no one can ever find hrothgar unless I find you first!

Oh and as for the rules. Often times we think we have access to all spells and abilities of our classes. This is incorrect. For a wizard that wishes to scry, they must research the spell or be trained in some way. Just because you have access to 4th level spells in NWN doesnt mean you should have access to scry. And to go further, if you are not specialized in divination I would think it less likely that you would be able to use scrying. I think i am done for a bit

*steals grozers two coppers*

[Aodhan the Unusual]

I'm not so thrilled about the scrying stuff period. Unless, of course, anti-scrying equipment is made, which in turn, would make half the population or so unscryable because they're either evil, thieves, etc. and don't want to be found.

All in all, really, if it's needed for a DM run quest, I could possibly see it. If it's used for player-started quests, problems, etc. I say no. Even with DM help. Sorry, but you're going to have to do some old-fashioned RPing sleuth work to find out who murdered Little Red Riding Hood.

[Foomanchu]

well I think everyone on the server would get some anti-scry equipment simply because the baddies don't want to be found by the goodies, and the goodies don't want to be found by the baddies, and the neutrals just want to stay out of it and so on and so forth...so by the time anyone gets to scrying, all the anti-scry equipment would be sold out! like hot cakes! with yummy icing and cream filling and...err...sorry...but yeah, my other point was going to be...how can you NOT find hroth..what with all that spandex he's pretty noticable...like a...downhill skiier or a speed walker! just joshin man just joshin

[Booze Hound]

maybe I am just a simpleton (or like to keep things simple) but it seems like this is being a huge deal for something that doesnt seem that huge to me.

Like I said, I have known some scrying to be done on the server when some DMs were there to help out in the past, and it didnt seem like a big thing. It cost a crap load of money paid to an NPC, and really all it did was give us a spot to find someone...

I dunno, maybe I am just too much like my character and would rather fish and play in the woods than get in to drama with all you zanies.

but basically i think it boils down to...if this gets allowed
DON'T BE AN A-HOLE!!!

yea just play the game properly and by the rules and everyone has more fun. it's not like you are gonna beat the game or anything

but as long as PCs cant just go scrying their hearts out, i think it could be ok. if a DM is there to do it, and has the time, and it is for a good reason, and you have a crap load of money, and a finger or lock of hair or eyeball, and all that mumbo jumbo, then sure get a fuzzy description of where the person is.

Grozer, just make sure you dont give anyone your eyeball and you should be fine ;D

[Booze Hound]

quadhund said:

*is dressed like a sheep* I don't know what justicar is talking about, there is no one around that is manipulative *smiles with wolf fangs*.

LET THE METAGAMING BEGIN!!!

Not like i haven't had to deal with it before.

*swats Quad* I swear...you are the worst ever *rolls eyes*

[Grozer]

I hear ya Logan.. totally. And I'll agree maybe I am over thinking this, but I guess my "imagination" of scrying is that it is more than a 3/4/5 level spell. You make a valid point, if scrying is allowed in game dont overdue it and go by the rules. I really think everyone tries to do that.. the problem comes in when there is no direct or the issue is in the grey area and people have to make a subjective call... kinda like "seeing through a disguise" you know? By the time you make your case they dont notice you... the damage is done.

Heck part of me "wants" scrying... a little part of me... its also 5th level cleric spell! So Ranan can really take advantage of this, for example right now Ranan is searching like crazy to locate Chril, scrying would be sooooo handy right now! But I still think it should be controlled.

I can see where it might fit in game through an NPC to further a quest. I guess bottom line is I am not comfortable with it being available to just anyone... well only me of course! LOL just kidding on the last part.

*cuts Hroth's fingers off for trying to take his coppers*

[marklar]

i say lvl restrictions for sure if this is allowed, like Ranan said only power people could do this i don't want some lvl 2 scrying

[Munroe]

There is Scrying and Greater Scrying. Scrying takes an hour to cast, Greater Scrying takes a standard action. Scrying lasts 1 min./level, Greater Scrying lasts 1 hour/level.

Scrying is a Bard 3, Cleric 5, Druid 4, Sor/Wiz 4 spell.
Greater Scrying is a Bard 6, Cleric 7, Druid 7, Sor/Wiz 7 spell.

I would support Scrying but not Greater Scrying because it casts in a standard action and lasts for hour/level. Too powerful.

However... Bard, Sorc, and Wizard are less likely to get scrying than Cleric and Druid because bards and sorcs have to choose their spells at level-up and wizards have to research/find theirs.

I support scrying, but I think there are some important things to consider:
1. Just because you are a wizard, you do not know how to scry.
2. Scrying takes an hour. You may find out where your target is, but by then you may not be able to reach him/her. It takes an hour to cast and leasts 1 min./level so it is impossible to be scryed upon all the time.
3. Scrying shows you the target. It does not tell you where the target is. In that regard, it is better for spying than tracking someone down.

If we allow Scrying, Detect Scrying should also be permitted. I expect it would be. It is a bard 4, sor/wiz 4 divination spell. You know the location of all sensors within 40 feet radius. If the caster of scry is within 40 feet of you, you immediately know his location. If he is not then the two of you make opposed caster level checks (d20+caster level). If your check at least matches his, you get a visual image of the scrier and an accurate sense of his direction and distance from you. Duration of Detect Scrying is 24 hours and casting time is a standard action.

I also support Commune for clerics. It is a level 5 cleric spell. I like it better because it answers yes/no/unclear or, if that would be misleading the DM may choose a short answer of 5 words or less. It is also not necessarily answered by the deity but can be answered by a celestial in service to that deity. Since deities in FR are not all-knowing, the deity (or their representative) may not know an answer. Also, they answer in such a way to meet their own ends. It lasts one question/caster level or one round/level (whichever is shorter) and ends prematurely if the communing cleric gets sidetracked. Also, because the cleric could potentially be talking directly to their deity (they don't automatically know if a deity or its agent is answering), overuse would be a bad thing.

As for Detect Evil, I thought the agreement was that it always required player consent? I always allow it in my interactions between NPCs and the players.

[gathera]

For scrying to be effective wouldn't one need a personal effect of the target. It would have to be something worn or dear to the person as well not just a missing button. Besides scrying to my mind would not tell you exactly where the target was but only a description of the location. It would by design be a DM function and hence the skill of the scryer could limit the information gained. My two cents worth anyway.

[Booze Hound]

the one time I was actually involved in a scrying we had well we had Manshin's sword, and used that. Him being a weapon master, and Korfuji being his soulbound type weapon thingy, it seemed like a good thing to use, and did it through an NPC wizard in suzail.

the other time we thought about scrying was going to be for Visitant, and I had her freaking head!

So definatly without some sort of item like this (and I dont mean a scrap of cloak) but something genuinly tied to (or severed from) the person you are looking for, forget it

[DM Grizwald]

i am still not really one for the idea. kind of takes the fun out of trying to find them. But whatever you all decide i will go with...

[Mehangel]

I would have to say that I am for scrying, though I would agree that there would have to be some sort of detect/negate scrying device or spell, otherwise all your Wanted criminals would be found within moments. If scrying is later confirmed to be removed I would say that Commune and Commune with Nature would still be appropriate for FRC.

[Driderman]

First of all: This thread was last posted in 9 months ago, Mehangel... ;D
Secondly: As stated in the thread by one of those many DMs, scrying does not show the location of the scryed subject.

[EDM Entori]

well I don't know much about DND, but I do read forgotten realms *looks at server name*. And in Forgotten realms any cleric or mage of some power can scrybe, using items or rituals. so Maybe at a certain levels (5 ... 10..15) you get diffrent items that allow you to scry more information.. plus you need spell parts to use it. and depending what you are looking for you will certain compoents. like my character is searching for the elven sancuaries in cormyr.. so he would need to get certain items plus his item that he got with his level. and use the item to look for that and he would say.. that he is looking for the lost lands or what not and that would be sent to a dm.

or.

just give selections to what to scryb and take a price in XP and gold.. or in some of hte books I have read rituals would drain the caster. so drop his intl to 1 and then back up again.. he will loose all spells prepared for that day. just a thought

[EDM Entori]

one more thing I forgot to add. a DM commented this on my first doing it. In the Realms mages can send telepathic messages through the weave.. no more than 5-8 words with a spell.. maybe that can be brought in use a ring or something or prehaps a light cantrip can be altered.. so that the message can be sent that a cantrip is claimed
.. just a thought I really enjoy this server and I read alot of these books so..
I just want to help

later

Ent

[EDM Entori]

.dis regard 9 months sheesh..

[heimdall]

Scrying, telepathy, detect evil and ALL these types of divinations are not allowed on FRC except for the rare exceptions already detailed in previous responses.

Nor will they be. I am locking this thread and this poll as we have already decided this matter.