A look at Hit Points

[DJalin]

The idea of Hit points has always bothered me in the 20+ years I have been a Role Player. How the heck does someone go from 5 hits points to 300 hits points. It is really how many times someone can take a punch.

Now in NWN I see people RPing bleading and being beaten up and many other things and the idea of what Hit Points should be hit me. Mind you, others may already have this thought, but I just wanted to put it into writting.

The start of Any profession marks a PC with minimul training in their profession. The hits points at that point actually represent how many times that person can tack a 'punch'.

As ones profession improves, a person learns skill in how to move with or get out of the way of a 'punch'. This represents extra hit points.

Before you argue, a wizard doesnt train in combat. Think of this, they get fewer hit points to represent their lack of training.

The way I see it, hit points actually represent a persons stamina and ability to keep from actually receiving 'true damage'. As a PCs hit points fall, they wear out and cannot keep that 'true damage' from happening. "true damage" is when tha weapon actually draws meat and ot blood.

Think of movie fantasy. How many times does the hero actually get hit? Not many, but if they are warn down (hit points running low) they will soon get hit.

So what does a potion of healing do? Does it actually close wounds? Well, not actually though it can. Most of the time a poition of healing will just give a PC back the energy needed to keep defending themself.

Just my thoughts on Hit Points.

Your Friendly Neighborhood DM
D'Jalin

[soulfien]

then how does a 20th lvl warrior withstand a wizard's magic missile better than a 1st lvl? It unnerringly strikes its target with no saving throw- i.e. reflex or fort.

Issac's greater missile storm can do over 100 hitpoints worth of damage easily.

[Panros]

I always looked at hit points as your vitality and resilience and I tend not to look at the number but rather the level of injury. When one is Uninjured/Barely Injured/Injured/Seriously Injured/Near Death I react as if the person or I have not a scratch/a few scratches/open wounds/large open wounds/fatal wounds. I try and give a person a "tell" for them to tell me how beat up they are before I make an observation (there is a cut on the arm) and I always try and remember to emote my wounds as I approach a group (*bleeds from the leg*).

Regarding the greater missile storm... it would take more hits to make an epic warrior injured than a newly made bard. Some people took a shot to the head eight times by Mike Tyson in his prime and were K.O.ed and others took it one time before they were K.O.ed. One could say the man who took the shot eight times had more hit points.

[DJalin]

The Damage is what it is and has no part in the Hit Points of a PC. Yes if something does more Damage it where a well trained adventurer down more, but it doesnt kill them.

Where as in the case of the begining adventurer who hasnt trained to improve their body and skills, they will most likely die.

Biggest point in this is, an adventurer isnt going to take a crushing blow and survive. They are human (or any other race) just like any of us (with a bit more skill).

The Hit Points represent that skill and ability to evade the damage. As for the Magic missle. The ability to hit is there, but so it the ability to evade it (hit points).

Just an attemp to put Hit Points into a better perspective.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

soulfien said:

then how does a 20th lvl warrior withstand a wizard's magic missile better than a 1st lvl? It unnerringly strikes its target with no saving throw- i.e. reflex or fort.

Issac's greater missile storm can do over 100 hitpoints worth of damage easily.

Same question as why does a child cry when they skin their knee and an adult just shrugs it off. Same wound, different reactions. With experience you learn to understand your body and its tolerances.

[thogrimur]

Well...it's an interesting perspective.

However, I still play that if I am badly wounded....I am badly wounded...which means that yes, I have actually sustained injuries.

This is nice, but is also kind of a cop-out for those who don't wish to roleplay the fact that they just got F'd up.

I'm at near death, but I'm not 'really' wounded yet....so hence I can keep right on running.

I like the way the game DOOM handled your 'hitpoints' - you actually got a visual of your guys face and it was quite apparent as you took damage how badly your guy was messed up. The game even gave you a limp and slowed you down when you took enough damage....I sure wish NwN had taken it to that level.

So....folks can continue to RP the fact they are bleeding, beaten up, etc...as I know that some DM's do prefer to see the realism aspect and will reward you accordingly.

[thogrimur]

And I know it's been brought up that "if that giant had "really" hit me, I'd be crushed flat, not just "injured"

While true....it's your skill in the combat that kept you from getting crushed....but the giant still HIT you....perhaps you dodged and evaded the "killing" blow, only to have your knee get blasted. Either way...you took damage, thus you're injured to some extent.

And there's no 'evading' a magic missle. They streak towards thier target and unnerringly hit. Thus you are hit! Where you got hit can be interpreted by your hit points remaining. Perhaps it just impacted on your chestplate, only causing minor burns. Perhaps you threw your hand up in time to "catch" the magic missle...taking the damage on your hand...

I'll ask those who wish to play that they aren't wounded to sign up here....that way I won't actually try to heal you until you are dead....since you aren't 'really' wounded.

Just my two thumbs on the matter.

[Panros]

Testify Throgrimur, that is how I feel.

[DM Justicar - Creator of FRC]

This is actually a qoute from the FRC rules, but this is just how I have always explained it in my mind:

"Your character does not know what an experience point or a hit point is. To your character, hitpoints represent their overall vitality and ability to survive against enormous odds; likewise XP are not actual points in your characters mind. They are experience gained through learning that will eventually lead to your character's better understanding of the world, themselves and their capablities."

So that's how I look at it anyway. I think any way that gets you through the day is pretty much cool as long as it makes sense.

[Pookey]

My opinion:

I think of hit points as minor wounds and scratches progressively getting worse as your wound indicator, well.. indicates.

So, barely injured is a scrape or broken skin or a bruise, maybe.

Badly wounded is definitely bleeding from a big wound or a couple of moderate wounds, maybe a cracked rib.

The way hitpoints tie in is that now it takes more to get my character past barely injured to injured. The cuts and scrapes, etc., he sustains are the same. At first level, injured was a cut. At tenth level, it is still a cut. It is just a lot harder to get a decent cut in than it was because of luck, skill, etc which are abstracted and quantified by hit points.

Unless you're a Malarite Black Blooded Barbarian, in which case it's pretty easy to get him to near death. :-(

[soulfien]

Thogrimur, I couldn't have said it better myself!

[Munroe]

It's important to consider that hitpoints are not the number of damage you can sustain before you die. Hitpoints are the amount of damage you sustain before you pass out. Once unconcious, a Coup de Grace can kill any character.

For the magic missile, a level 1 commoner (with 4 hp) can take a magic missile hit (1 missile) that does 1d4+1 damage and say he takes 5 damage (The MM rolled a 4 on its d4). He's unconscious because he's not trained to endure that kind of hit. A level 1 fighter, on the other hand, (with 12 hp) can take the exact same magic missile blast and shrug it off. Sure, he's still sustained 5 damage, but he's conditioned to retain consciousness through it.

It may not be that the fighter can sustain more physical damage than a commoner, just that he can remain conscious and defend himself through more of it. Once unconscious, even a 300 hp barbarian can be killed by one Coup de Grace so maintaining consciousness is the key.

So what of creatures that don't have consciousness, such as undead, constructs, and the like? Well, they aren't "people" so their situation is different. Undead are destroyed when their HP reaches 0 (baring special cases such as liches and vampires), as are constructs. HP can be considered to work differently between different races and types of creatures because different creatures work differently.

Outsiders such as demons, devils, angels, &c, are returned to their native plane when their HP reaches 0 so it is equivalent to losing conscousness, they just don't stick around to receive a Coup de Grace.

Lastly, hit points and AC are abstractions. Trying to tie them to one particular element is not really desirable, at least not to me. My brother insists on calling AC "dodge", and I have to keep reminding him that a warrior in full-plate is not "dodging."

[soulfien]

that's not true either.

There are rules in place in D&D for knocking someone out without doing massive hitpoint damage.

I.E. It doesn't take a 1 ton boulder to knock down a lvl 30 fighter. If a 1 ton boulder hits him in the head he dies.

But a quick blow to the base of the skull just right can knock him unconsious.

Or blood loss. Hitpoints can not be defined! PERIOD! There are rules in place all throughout the DM's guide that will contridict any rational explanation you can place on them.

Basically, D&D characters increase in body. They grow in physical prowress. Deal with it because these rules don't follow reality.

If you are injured then you have a nasty wound. If you are badly wounded then you can bet your ass you're in a great deal of pain. If you're near DEATH (that's DEATH, not fatigue or passing out) then it means exactly that! You are almost DEAD! Seek immediate medical care!

Near passing out means that you sit down for 10 minutes, catch your breath, and keep going. Or simply exit the fight and walk to the nearest town, winded, to do your shopping. That isn't the case. Consider yourself near death, not near passing out.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

Of course everyone is going by what Bioware says of putting literal percentages to your health. Just like the name that floats above your head, I think these terms of uninjured, barely injured, injured, badly wounded, and near death should be ignored. I think Panros had it right, if you really care about what the other persons status is, ask them in a tell or RP it out. Justify for yourself what the state of your character is. If Bioware had only put in three states: 100% = uninjured, 1%<health<100% = injured, and 1% = near death, would you guys still be arguing?

[Munroe]

I didn't mention anything about the titles, and I did negate everything I said in my post by saying they are just abstractions. Most of D&D is abstractions in order to simplify the game.

I didn't mention the overhead titles precisely because they are a Bioware contrivance that means even less than hitpoints.

[soulfien]

The point of those status names above your head are to give a quick assessment of who's in front of you. There's a huge and very noticable differance between uninjured and near death.

You walk up to Joe who is "near death" and he smiles and shakes your hand and then says goodbye as he runs up a hill clutching his bow as if nothing is wrong.

Something's wrong with that. You should always be able to tell when someone is at 2 out of 306 hitpoints.

Here's one example of when I found myself hurt and with no healing. My Druid, Celindra, tried to make it to Redmist on her own at like lvl 3 or 4. By the time she made it she was poisoned and near death without a single healing kit or potion. The poison had run its course, but she was really weakened by it and not to mention bleeding like mad (considering that orcs carry bladed weapons, I decided her wounds were open and bleeding rather than simply having a bad headache or bruised ribs- VERY noticable!).

She walked through Redmist (no DM's on at the time so the NPC's were of no use to me) looking for the inn and begging for help from any passerby (NPC's) she saw. She was leaning heavily on her bow and in tears from the pain of the poison and multiple wounds. She finally made it to the inn and collapsed in a chair unable to make it up the stairs.

Fortune smiled on her and Sharita walked in and saw her. She quickly lent her healing magic and got her back on her feet for a good night's rest upstairs.

[heimdall]

I don't really see it as an arguement so much as a discussion.

I can tell you that folks who RP their status, whether it be wounded, diseased or poisoned or any combo of the above are a LOT more likely to get a shot of RP xp from me....

I've said before...somewhere...that I believe someone could hide the fact that they are injured if they so chose to do so. (which one of my characters often does) You could probably even hide the fact that you were badly injured if you weren't doing anything too strenuous at the time, but you still wouldn't be volunteering for any heavy lifting...but if some one was beaten, stabbed, crushed, etc..to the point that they are nearly dead....I find it quite unreal that they would keep on running around as though nothing were wrong with them.

So long as you RP the situations you're fine. How you choose to RP the situations is left more to your discretion.

And as far as the floating names go....do yourselves a big favor and just turn them off. Go to Game Options / Feedback Options / and uncheck the 'show mouseover feedback' button.

[Laurk]

I have a somewhat differant view of magic missles and Issaics missle storm spells. I RP that magic missles are not particularly powerful, but a direct hit to the head can render you unconcious, or to your heart can stop your heart and kill you... almost like a well placed electric shock. New adventurers (low level) have very poor defense and do not have the experiance and know-how to react to magic missles. I pretend that by their nature, magic missles seek out these vulnerable areas on your body... i.e. They always aim for your head or your heart. However, as you get higher in level, you learn to *accept* magic missle hits in less vulnerable areas. For example, when a high level character sees a bunch of missles coming at him, he intercepts most of them on his arm... in a sense, blocking them. Though they cannot miss, the damage can be lessened by using limbs to intercept the bolts.

So thats my take.

Also, im sure this has been written elsewhere, but I generally RP that my lost HP are physical exhaustion or bruising until I reach badly wounded. At badly wounded I will RP cuts and punctures and other bloody wounds.

As a side note... most of the wounds people RP as slight would actually be near fatal in real life. I've heard people speak about exposed ribs, or bone deep cuts while "injured." The paramedics out there can speak for that fact that 80% of punctures and cuts which are 3" deep are fatal. Not to mention that when your muscle is cut... whatever job that muscle was doing... i.e. controlling your arm... is now useless. So even though in the movies, heroes get cut on the arm with knives constantly, a real cut to the arm that did more than break the skin is probably going to render your arm completely useless. It is for this reason, and the fact that all of your damage can be healed by resting for the night that I attribute most damage to exhaustion.

As for the whole dodging the Giant's club thing... well, I still say, if a giant hits you, your dead... unless you have simply amazing shock absorbing armor. But imagine how much energy it would take to dive out of the path of an entire tree being swung at your head.. especially in armor. A fellow could only do that so long before his body just wouldn't react like his brain was telling it to... its that last hit that knocks the life out of you that was the "direct hit."

[soulfien]

laurk, didn't you once say that you attempted to shoo away a low level who wanted to follow manshin and company on a dangerous assignment by attempting to hit him?

You rolled your hit and he simply said "dodges out of the way" til you made him admit his AC.

Your post, like DM DJalin's, seems to say that aperson DOES dodge out of the way of the hit.

In which case Manshin should have swung multiple times in order to tire him out quickly (i.e. knocked him down to badly wounded)

[Dachshund]

hehe... you guys are worse than Phel and his Magic Rant.

[Laurk]

Well, Soul... had i hit him, he would have actually been dead... having had fewer HP than the minimum damage Manshin can deal. So in that case, yes, it would have been a hit and not sudden exhaustion. However, There is certainly something to be said for "rolling with punches." Though, I do of course want to thank you for once again riding one of my posts with such a compelling nit pick and forcing me to expound upon a simple concept which was meant only as a guidline and not a solid rule.

Let me equate this to the RP game Palladium. I started playing with a group of people in Paper and Pencil D&D. They were accustomed to playing Palladium and during a fight, one of the players wanted to use a Palladium combat option called "simultanious attack" in which the player chooses to take a hit in exchange for automatically scoring a hit against his enemy. I replied... "You are a gnome... this is a full grown orc with a greataxe. If you take his attack with no attempt at dodging or defense, you would be a little red spot on the ground and the orc would have a small puncture to help decorate his patchwork of scars."

The point is... it doesnt matter if you RP your loss of HP due to the fatigue associated with diving out of the way of a giants club, or the shock abosorbed in deflecting the mightly blow which sent you sprawling, or just plain rolling with the hit in a manner which keeps you safe from blunt trauma... it is certainly NOT a direct hit... because direct hits are fatal.

And by the way, a clean dodge doesnt require a lot of energy. What I am refering to when you actually loose HP is a maneuver which was exceedingly difficult... i.e. Dodging narrowly with a diveroll at the last moment which required a great amount of energy (as in you take damage) as opposed to shifting with a swift pivot to avoid the blow with minimal if any effort. (A clean dodge... not taking damage.) Or, in the case of a warrior in heavy armor, perhaps a parry angeled so perfectly that the club is deflected and no shock is abosorbed (Not taking damage) as opposed to taking the club on your shield which sends you reeling backwards with your arm stinging from the force of the impact, knocking you off balance and perhaps knocking the wind out of you. (Taking damage) Hopefully that is a bit clearer.

Laurk