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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Apr 20, 2005 18:10:06 GMT -5
The DM staff is seeing alot characters that are more "built" than properly played. This is not only disheartening, it is totally unwelcome on our server.
Gut check time:
Your character has an 8 intelligence, yet still converses around the fire as if he/she were a Rhodes scholar.
Your character has an 8 charisma, yet their description tells of how charming and comely they are.
Your character has an 8 wisdom, yet somehow manages to act in a cool, calm, and collected manner at all times.
This not only has to end, but I think I speak for the whole DM team when I say this:
We give XP for good RP... we are going to have to start taking it away for poor. People who are power-building and demonstarting no concept of their characters true abilities are going to start feeling the pinch. If you are currently playing a character that makes no sense, well... that's your issue. Re-roll immediately, and call it a day.
Please play your characters to their abilities folks, to the best of your abilities. If you are not a skilled RP'er, I suggest NOT taking any challenging ability scores that require special attention to RP.
Most of you have been very good about this, and this only goes for those of you who are skirting the line.
Please consider this fair warning, and go ahead and ask any questions you might have.
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Post by Forum Administrator on Apr 21, 2005 0:50:13 GMT -5
Ability scores is a very important part of any character, and thus, it requires special attention at all times, since they form the engine of your character.
Please be considerate when placing an 8 in your Charisma score, or any other score for that matter, as we, the DM's, will be paying special attention to those that don't roleplay them accordingly.
Cheers, DM Bassa
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Post by Talus on Apr 21, 2005 0:58:13 GMT -5
I guess I have a question then about Wisdom and it being at 8. Not having played a rogue before I just hit recommended during build, put a 8 in Wisdom. So what does a low Wisdom mean for Kam. So I guess what I am askin is how does that affect him? I always thought wisdom represented kind of Common Sense. boy that kind of Rambles, I hope I got my question across
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Post by Forum Administrator on Apr 21, 2005 1:07:35 GMT -5
Wisdom equates common sense and your character's ability to "understand" and "measure" the environment that surrounds your character at any present time.
A character with a Wisdom score of 8 is most likely not very observant, nor does he have the ability to accurately understand other people; motives, intentions and personal agendas, etc. Forgetfulness and being easily confused is also common trademarks of a person with a Wisdom score of 9 or lower.
Cheers, DM Bassa
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Post by Spooks on Apr 21, 2005 1:13:13 GMT -5
I also have a question.
I made Luthor and Unfortunately... he has a 7 charisma... but it should be a 9, but its a -2 penalty for being a dwarf.
Now I understand that it cant be helped... but do we need to roleplay him being wicked mean, or smelly, or ugly just to compensate for being a dwarf?
So I figure I can roleplay him with a 9 charisma, as long as I roleplay him being a dwarf well enough (being as thats what the penalty is for) I mean come on... how can you roleplay every dwarf having a -2 charisma? That means all dwarves have either a social flaw or are naturally uglier than every other race. Thats all opinion... and I feel its a flaw in both PnP and in NWN that they give racial penalties on things that cant really be explained for everyone in the race... Elves are physically dextrous, and as such are less durable in the long run, explaining their -2 constitution its a natural trait... but to say all dwarves are naturally handicapped socially is a bit too presumptuous for my liking... I am soooo rambling, so please feel free to correct me
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Gusty
New Member
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Post by Gusty on Apr 21, 2005 3:42:05 GMT -5
Granted Charisma is not necessarilly an indicator of personal appearance the classic example being Hitler...
now Hitler was by no means an attractive man. In fact he is a stunted dark little weasle of a man with a poor sense of style and yet he had charisma of about 35.
likewise there are very attractive people that I wouldn't follow in line at the bank
As to the racial modifier the way that works is that within your own race you would have a 9 in this example but with characters and NPC's of other races you are a toad.
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Post by Artemisa on Apr 21, 2005 6:16:02 GMT -5
Regarding charisma... Many seem to connect charisma only with the abilities to be charming, nice apparence and such, but a person with high charisma can also be a person you'll instantly NOT like. It takes very much charisma to make someone instantly dislike or like you. In a simpler note: Charisma also represents a strong personality DM_Gustyrill made a great example. And a general note to DMs....Is it too much to ask to get a poke if you observe someone RP'ing their character wrong compared to their abilities? Personally I'm not a long time RP'er and only discovered the world of roleplay 2 years ago or so, so pointers are always nice. I don't expect you guys to babysit us more then what you already do, but I'd appreciate a small poke if I'm doing anything very wrong here and I bet more people would too
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Post by Talus on Apr 21, 2005 6:25:03 GMT -5
And a general note to DMs....Is it too much to ask to get a poke if you observe someone RP'ing their character wrong compared to their abilities? Personally I'm not a long time RP'er and only discovered the world of roleplay 2 years ago or so, so pointers are always nice. I don't expect you guys to babysit us more then what you already do, but I'd appreciate a small poke if I'm doing anything very wrong here and I bet more people would too Yep I would really like a poke on what I may doin wrong and maybe how to do it defferently.
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Post by MithrilBlade on Apr 21, 2005 7:23:24 GMT -5
About dwarves, a dwarf with 8 cha is quite much typical dwarf, you don't have to be yelling stuff for everybody if you have that. Why dwarves get their racial abilities is because their culture is like that, they encourage hard working for the clan and king, it's like 100% socialism (even communism perhaps) and well...Social skills aren't simply very highly valued there. Dwarves can be very hearty people to each others, but typical clan dwarf is usually a bit cold, suspicious and naive for everyone who they don't know, it takes time to get their trust but if you win a dwarf's trust a dwarf is the most loyal ally you can get. Dwarves are a bit complicated, personally I am expert with dwarves so if anyone has anything to ask of their behavior/gods/anything I would be more than willing to help, because I always love to see well roleplayed dwarf
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Post by soulfien on Apr 21, 2005 15:59:49 GMT -5
Charisma is a LOT of things...
Appearance Personality Leadership Cleanliness
etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...
You can break it down anyway you like. For example... You can be a complete b*tch, blatenly evil, attractive, and have great leadership skills. The last PC I played with those attributes had a charisma of 12. She had a knack for bringing paladins and blackguards together to accomplish a common goal. She could tlk her way out of any inquiries concerning crimes that she had committed.
All that is charisma (oh and I never used rolls- rp'ed it all)
You can have a PC who is attractive as heck and have the leadership skills of a rock. The kind of girl who'd never make a decision or have a strong enough personality to bark orders.
CHA is the least cut and dry skill of them all.
Also Wisdom is NOT the ability to be observant. There are some highly intelligent people in the world who could notice a mistake in a long string of binary programming at a glance. Wisdom and intelligence go hand in hand way too much to be properly broken down. No one has that great of an understanding of the human mind.
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Post by Lord_Raven88 on Apr 21, 2005 16:14:05 GMT -5
I guess I have a question then about Wisdom and it being at 8. Not having played a rogue before I just hit recommended during build, put a 8 in Wisdom. So what does a low Wisdom mean for Kam. So I guess what I am askin is how does that affect him? I always thought wisdom represented kind of Common Sense. boy that kind of Rambles, I hope I got my question across When I have a character with 8 Wisdom I usually RP them as a bit hot headed, impetuous or even naive. Basically I would tend to rush into things without considering the big picture or consequences. Anyway thats how I RP it, also its great fun to be gulible or naive, it make for great RP situations. ;D
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Post by Forum Administrator on Apr 21, 2005 16:30:36 GMT -5
Also Wisdom is NOT the ability to be observant. Yes it is, and no it isn't. As you said yourself, there are alot of interpolating factors that should come into consideration, but since NWN is a computer game based on a system of rules that allows playability, all things shouldn't be taken literally. Ability scores are naught but simple guidelines to a characters traits. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't take things so literal, Soul. Cheers, DM Bassa
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Post by Mr. Baboon on Apr 21, 2005 20:13:48 GMT -5
Ok, here's my take on it: Charisma doesn't necesarilly have to do with good looks, or even personality - it could also just be force of will. A Charisma score of 6 would make you a complete groupie, as compared to a 14, which would make you a good second-in-command, or wartime leader. 10 is average - you follow a charismatic leader, but aren't too easily influenced. Wisdom could just be scatterbrained, or a lack of common sense. A person with an 8 wisdom, while diseased, would push on while telling the party "Oh, it's just a flesh wound! Don't worry about it, I'm fine." A person with an 18 wisdom, on the other hand... would be like a wise old guru, imparting advice, and making up catchy proverbs that make perfect sense, and you should've thought of earlier. Intelligence is a measure of how much knowledge you know from books, lore, information. Someone with an 8 intelligence can't read becuase they're completely uneducated. A person with a 14 intelligence is well read, and knows alot about different organizations - although they confuse overly obscure things, such as the history of the Githzerai and Githyanki. I hope these are helpful for some of you...
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Post by narayan on Apr 22, 2005 11:18:49 GMT -5
Charisma doesn't necesarilly have to do with good looks, or even personality - it could also just be force of will. A Charisma score of 6 would make you a complete groupie, as compared to a 14, which would make you a good second-in-command, or wartime leader. 10 is average - you follow a charismatic leader, but aren't too easily influenced. I totally disagree with this at all. I see CHA the following way. (you might want to correct me if im wrong). I believe that Charisma is the way your character connects with other PC or not. It is the way people see you, it defines your personality, your looks, and depending on your CHA score it helps you tell how hard or difficult it is to make and keep friendships or relationships and most important - it gives the stranger the first idea about you - its your first impression. Characters with high CHA have as lots of friends, they are easygoing, they are one of those people you connect almost immediatly. On the other hand, a Character with CHA 6 would never be a groupie, or that well accepted socially, he would probably be an outcast. Because having a low CHA means that people find it hard to get on with you. Now if the low CHA character has a normal INT and WIS scores, and having the opportunity he would show people using a conversation or actions that theres more to him that what they are seeing. But nevertheless a lower CHA score is serious handycap when roleplaying a character - i see them as being anti-social. Also, i believe that a good Charisma score PLUS a good WIS and INT scores make a good leader. Why? Because its always about content and the way information is passed on to the receiver. A character might have a high CHA score (which helps you find his personality wonderful and a great person to be around), but obeying him and following what he says definately has to make sense to your character (using your WIS and INT) - he might be a Brad Pitt, but if he has no brains, and what he says doesnt make sense to you or captivates you, you'll never follow him into battle. My Character Gadush, has a CHA of 6, and if you read the Character description it says exactly that - that he stinks and looks bad to the point of nausea. I decided to go by that, this adds an extra to my roleplaying with him, he's an barbarian half-orc. Most of the people that have met him, know that he doesnt like the rain because it washes the blood and gore off his armor (thus keeping the flies away), he rarely takes his helmet off, but after the first impression, people see him as having a big heart - of course people wont get near him ;D, but he has made some nice friends in FRC, through conversation, but not looks. As i said before in my posts, this is just my opinion, and the way i usually see these scores and guide my character through role-play.
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RPR
New Member
Posts: 42
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Post by RPR on Apr 22, 2005 13:05:36 GMT -5
In a orchist society or in a barbarian society, charisma is not the main factor for a leader. In there, the law of the stronger makes the leader so, a good wisdom and above all, a good strenght would make the leader. However, in a civilized society, the charisma is important but not alone, to make a leader. The inteligence will be important too and/or wisdom to add to the charism. In another server, i played a char with a good charisma that would not be a good leader. This was a young female with a good charism. This charisma represented her good appearence and a strong presence in the society. She was good looking and was not shy, she wouldn't chose to be in a shadow when time to act or talk would come. She could lead or inspire a group but... She had a normal wisdom and inteligence. This means she was not the best to become a leader of a society, like a mayor. Also, to lead a group in a venture, she would be able to inspire and lead the group, however, the not so hi wisdom and inteligence would mean, she would not make the best choices when facing the enemy or chosing ways. Also, she would tend to act too fast and think later. Would the wisdom and inteligence be lower and she would be dangerous to follow. She could lead the party to some dangerous situations due to the low wisdom and inteligence.
So, i have heard much about the charisma and i do believe it reflects the appearance of your char; the presence (shy or willing to show in a group); The way he/she passes his/her ideas to others and how he/she can inspire or influence others by words or by actions (even visual impression). In order to become a good leader, one must also combine and RP the Inteligence and/or wisdom. This will influence the kind of leader the char is and how he would act. In the case of orcs or barbarians, Charism seems to be not the most important, since they will obey and follow the strongest. The one that can defeat all others and impose his position by force. Of course, if they have a somehow med charisma, it can help. Wisdom as well and inteligence would be very rare among barbarians and orcs.
That's my opinion.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Apr 22, 2005 13:57:55 GMT -5
Ok now I have to throw in my ideas here.
First off, Wisdom. Wisdom to me reflects not only your ability to discern the truth and meaning behind things, but also your ability to be manipulated. Hence the tie of wisdom to your will save. Wisdom allows you to see more than what is presented as well resist another persons ability to "pull the wool over your eyes". Would this make a quality for a good leader, yes.
Second, Intelligence. This is your "book smarts". It influences most everything you can learn by reading. It would allow you to perform well in negotiations, by knowing whether or not logically things make sense. Does the two coin I give the merchant equal the value of the item i get? Would this quality make a good leader, sure.
Finally, Charisma. Basically this ability score is the most intangible of them all. It doesnt just have to be about your looks, or your personality. But it also is your personal magnetism. People are drawn to you. They want to be around you. when you say something, truth or not, they are going to listen to you. You can persuade people to do things outside the norm (not extreme stuff though). But in my opnion, this is the only quality that a person who wants to lead needs. Take for example a real life situation. USA, and specifically our president. Now I dont want to get into a political arguement and I'm not trying to bash the guy but here a few things that strike me. Is Bush intelligent? Maybe. Is Bush wise? Who knows. Is Bush charismatic? Gods yes. How else do you think he won the election. It is not because he is necessarily a good leader, but it means that people will follow him because they are drawn to him. He is the prime example of how charisma works. If you ever are confused about how to act with a high charisma, just ask yourself: WWGWBD (what would george w bush do?).
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Post by Munroe on Apr 23, 2005 0:27:30 GMT -5
Don't forget also that Charisma is the primary determining factor for a the Turn/Rebuke Undead ability of a cleric, paladin, or blackguard. The charisma that is used in that is a force of personality, kind of a "YOU WILL Turn AWAY by the POWER of my GOD" kind of thing, the D&D/NWN equivalent of "Get thee behind me, Satan!" It is using the person's force of personality to impose authority convincingly.
"I do have the authority to destroy you! Back in the name of Lathander!"
"I do have the authority to command you! In the name of Bane, serve me!"
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Post by DM the Usurper on Apr 23, 2005 16:35:03 GMT -5
RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH!
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Post by Lord_Raven88 on Apr 25, 2005 17:45:34 GMT -5
Ok now I have to throw in my ideas here. First off, Wisdom. Wisdom to me reflects not only your ability to discern the truth and meaning behind things, but also your ability to be manipulated. Hence the tie of wisdom to your will save. Wisdom allows you to see more than what is presented as well resist another persons ability to "pull the wool over your eyes". Would this make a quality for a good leader, yes. Second, Intelligence. This is your "book smarts". It influences most everything you can learn by reading. It would allow you to perform well in negotiations, by knowing whether or not logically things make sense. Does the two coin I give the merchant equal the value of the item i get? Would this quality make a good leader, sure. Finally, Charisma. Basically this ability score is the most intangible of them all. It doesnt just have to be about your looks, or your personality. But it also is your personal magnetism. People are drawn to you. They want to be around you. when you say something, truth or not, they are going to listen to you. You can persuade people to do things outside the norm (not extreme stuff though). But in my opnion, this is the only quality that a person who wants to lead needs. Take for example a real life situation. USA, and specifically our president. Now I dont want to get into a political arguement and I'm not trying to bash the guy but here a few things that strike me. Is Bush intelligent? Maybe. Is Bush wise? Who knows. Is Bush charismatic? Gods yes. How else do you think he won the election. It is not because he is necessarily a good leader, but it means that people will follow him because they are drawn to him. He is the prime example of how charisma works. If you ever are confused about how to act with a high charisma, just ask yourself: WWGWBD (what would george w bush do?). Bush may be charismatic, but if it came to a crisis I wouldn't want to follow him, I'd rather follow someone who was able to come up with a logical well thought out plan (Int & Wis). Saying that Cha is an important quality, if you have high Int & Wis but a low Cha, you may have good ideas, but it would be hard to get others to follow you, a leader needs a degree of magnitism and force of personailty to inspire others to follow. A high Int & Wis person would be a great advisor on the otherhand, this would then allow the charismatic leader make the right decisions. Obviously the best leaders have good Int, Wis and Cha.
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Post by hoffman900 on Apr 25, 2005 20:58:55 GMT -5
Since everyone has their interpretation, I feel oblige to add my own grain of salt to this "stew" ;D
I once read somewhere - PnP book or magazine, cant remember - a good comparison between INT and WIS scores:
Lets suppose a party being chased by monsters. They flee to a disrepaired rope bridge. The INT score will evaluate if tha bridge can support the party or not, based on physics knowledge and whatnot. The WIS score, on the other hand, will decide if it is worth taking the risk of loosing a party member to cross the bridge versus fighting the monster. Logic vs. common sense.
As for CHA, at one point there was a distinction - PnP again - between Comeliness and Charisma, the first being raw looks and (sexual) seductive powers, while the other represented leadership and magnetism (or how well to managed to rally others despite your looks). Sure one influenced the other, but you COULD be but ugly and still enthrall the masses (the Hitler example again).
Anyways it's all relative: as a more personnal example, supermodel type chicks are considered beautifull by most standards. I still have a hard time finding them arousing. Hey, what can i do, I dig nerdy looking women. So yeah, dwarves are generaly though as uncharismatic to outsiders but still makes good war leaders.
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Post by darkvoid on Apr 25, 2005 21:16:59 GMT -5
It all depends on the culture too. Think orcs. Strength is what they value most, so the strongest orc would make their best leader. It doesn't matter how much Cha. an orc has, if he's a wuss he'll get nowhere. Whereas in most of the other races it is most likely cha., int., and wis.
It also depends on what type of leader you're looking for. If you're looking for a leader for the party that's going to fight the evil drow and get the Sword of Doom, you'll probably want a guy with good str. and wis. Str. to fight the bad guys and wis. for a little common sense. But if you wanted to enter the Tower of the Evil Archmage to capture the Scroll of Doom, you'd want a wizard with high int. to be able to figure out the traps.
Alot of this stuff is relative.
-DV
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Gusty
New Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Gusty on Apr 26, 2005 7:34:27 GMT -5
intrepretation doesnt matter. the point here is that people with double 8's are a thing of the past. If you think you have been roleplaying it you are wrong. Sorry. My best friend in the world is getting their character rebuilt tomorrow. So guess what chance you have of keeping your double 8? if you guessed none you were right. You can collect your prize of a brand new rebuild behind door number 2. Those double 8's who confess and schedule a rebuild with me will get a small bonus and bit of respect back from me. If I have to come to you it will not be as much fun for you I am shure of that.
thanks - The Evil One
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Post by Artemisa on Apr 26, 2005 8:30:21 GMT -5
intrepretation doesnt matter. the point here is that people with double 8's are a thing of the past. If you think you have been roleplaying it you are wrong. Sorry. My best friend in the world is getting their character rebuilt tomorrow. So guess what chance you have of keeping your double 8? if you guessed none you were right. You can collect your prize of a brand new rebuild behind door number 2. Those double 8's who confess and schedule a rebuild with me will get a small bonus and bit of respect back from me. If I have to come to you it will not be as much fun for you I am shure of that. thanks - The Evil One In other words I better rebuild my bard with 8 in strenght and wisdom, or else....?
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Apr 26, 2005 9:04:32 GMT -5
In other words I better rebuild my bard with 8 in strenght and wisdom, or else....? It's for your own growth as a role-player. We are not doing this to be tyranical. It is also for the growth of the community at large. Many players are disgruntled by the fact that there are players who are "built" edging them out because they chose to make a more realistic, more playable character. It is only in the spirit of fairness that we are undertaking this.
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Post by MithrilBlade on Apr 26, 2005 9:43:32 GMT -5
I would like to notice that Artemisa didn't put her character 8 str and wis for powergaming reasons, she plays insane character that is very weak physically as well.
I think the point here was those fighters who take 8 int and 8 cha because it doesn't really give them anything "bad" and gives them 4 extra points to put in combat skill to make uber munchkin fighters and still they won't roleplay that their characters as dumb and annoying bastards, which they should really be (For half-orcs this is different thing, but humans 8 cha and 8 int means really really frustrating bully or something).
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Boogiedk
Old School
A mans home is his castle - But it shouldnt have to be his fortress
Posts: 252
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Post by Boogiedk on Apr 26, 2005 10:13:11 GMT -5
Kinda like rerolling your level 3 times . . . Check some of the characters hitpoints. There is NO WAY you can be that lucky when you get a new level ; Be good B.
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Post by Artemisa on Apr 26, 2005 10:14:14 GMT -5
It's for your own growth as a role-player. We are not doing this to be tyranical. It is also for the growth of the community at large. Many players are disgruntled by the fact that there are players who are "built" edging them out because they chose to make a more realistic, more playable character. It is only in the spirit of fairness that we are undertaking this. As much as I can understand the reasons for this I think it's completely unfair towards those people who actually spends hours on deviding the ability points for their characters to be sure it truly will represent the personality they had in mind for their characters. Even if I were to rebuild my bard I can't possible see how I could put any more points on strenght or charisma and play her the same way as I currently do. Or did now. Obviously I wont play her anymore. Not really sure what to say...other then that it's just sad.
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Post by narayan on Apr 26, 2005 10:20:22 GMT -5
but humans 8 cha and 8 int means really really frustrating bully or something). But a fighter with 8 WIS makes you run away everytime you go inside a circle of fear and makes you very vunerable to mind affecting spells, so as a fighter you shouldnt run from battle everytime you see a mummy. Also a fighter with 8 INT makes you earn less skill points to use, which mean that the fighter would be unable to do anything except killing, which in a role-play" its a character that wont fit. As a fighter i prefer to have a better score of WIS and INT, instead of DEX and CON because you're always fighting against magical monsters, where DEX and CON rarely favour you. Basic rule: balance has always been the key for character creation.
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Apr 26, 2005 10:28:47 GMT -5
As much as I can understand the reasons for this I think it's completely unfair towards those people who actually spends hours on deviding the ability points for their characters to be sure it truly will represent the personality they had in mind for their characters. Even if I were to rebuild my bard I can't possible see how I could put any more points on strenght or charisma and play her the same way as I currently do. Or did now. Obviously I wont play her anymore. Not really sure what to say...other then that it's just sad. I realize there are some cases that may need exception. The main problem here is, what would happen if we relied on the community to self cure? Would everyone come forward? More likely, only the people who are already properly playing their abilities would. So, you can probably see where this leads the team... we have to do *something*. I have a proposal... those characters who really feel that it would ruin their characters and their ability to be played the way they were intended should SUBMIT A LETTER OF INTENT/EXPLANATION TO THE DM TEAM. If you are asked in game regarding your stats, and you have not yet submitted your letter, just mention this to the DM. In these rare cases, there better be a really good story and logic. I am not saying the explanation need be long, in fact it would be best if the logic/reasoning is short. If it makes sense, I see no reason we shouldn't allow it. Should we get a flood of similar, or BS explanations, we will move forward as planned. We are really looking to weed out power builds, not to disrupt legitimate role-play and players.
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Post by Artemisa on Apr 26, 2005 10:34:47 GMT -5
Good! This is exactly what I wanted to hear. *wanders off to write*
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