The new rule ?

[Toreavamp]

As per this post frc.proboards37.com/index.cgi?board=serverrules&action=display&thread=1174582835 we can no longer tell anything OOCly to another person in a tell about our characters.
"This also includes speaking about secrets pertaining to your own characters. If players are meant to learn about your PCs little dirty secrets they are to learn about it In Character and not otherwise. This helps to avoid people accidentally metagaming your information."
I really don't get it, because it technically prohibits us from even posting up a background. If I want to go and tell my character Amith is a darkmoon monk to someone in a tell or if I want to tell Doust's player that Aren and Quen has kissed, I want to believe it is my very own decition to take that risk of people metagaming it, and in no way or shape for the staff to tell me what I can tell about my own character.

Metagaming of course is mentioned as a no go and eventually banable offence if taken too far or done too often, to which I totally agree, but frankly punishing someone for talking about their own character, I'm sorry to say it's reaching a point of big brother society. You wont ever get anyone to admit they've said anything about it and thusly in the end it'll be the one who metagamed the knowledge who will get punished. The only two ways to find out who told is be reading the server chat logs (assuming they log the tells too) or that the player who metagamed it have a log and/or screenshot of it.

Love
Hanne

[moulinous]

i would hafta agree as though it is a good idea to have this, i think it is also approaching a bit too much rule heavy and big brotherish. Kinda like saying i cannot have my chicken wings in trans fat rule. It would even mean all those fancy post of so many would be useless and need to be taken off as they would be considered metagaming. Now, giving up a major secret that has direct game results i can see...just think this rule should be a bit more fleshed out for all the rulemongers out there. Otherwise someone will take advantage of it. Maybe a common sense rule.

[Keetena]

I completely agree with Moulinous and Toreavamp, otherwise I dont see use to my 70 posts of Keetena origin and affairs

[Talus]

I think we are reading far to literally into this ruling. No one is saying that you can't post your journals on the forums.

What we are saying is if your character has a secret or something that people are actively trying to figure out, don't tell them or post it on the forums. Use common sense and not tell everyone that your character is a Shar worshiper, since they are you know, very secretive. Essentially don't give away the spoilers about your characters.

[DM Grizwald]

I'll speak from experience.

Once there was some interesting events going on that might of done some dramatic change. I had a good friend ask me what i was up to as he just logged on, and i told him i was busy with some "insert group of individuals here". He then went and crashed this party which he would of had no ic knowledge of and totally ruined what was happening. Its things like this that can be prevented and that the DM staff is trying to tell us not to do.

Journals and other minor things are alright but stuff like this (points above) and spoilers like Hemlock pointed out are not to be passed around.

[moulinous]

moulinous said:

Maybe a common sense rule.

which is why i said this...i know that i have done it and been done in by it but it one of the risk of telling anyone anything...one could make the argument that telling a dm could be bad since many of the dms are in some part of a guild and the guilds are serective and vs one another at times. Common sense should rule the day. If it will screw someone elses game up, dont do it. Hence, common sense...it has been rsurrectted so lets use it was all i was saying. I know some of these rules need to be made, but a simple reminder would sufice i think that everyone should try and not give out info as info is king.

[Toreavamp]

I'd completely agree, a common sense thingie would be much better. But the way the post is made it's an actual rule. it specifically in the first post say this: "This is an official warning from the FRC Team. Anyone caught doing so will be reprimanded for the act which can go up to and include a banning."
I know it's rulelawying, to say so but as it's written to say anything about one's character in a tell can eventually result in a ban. So as said, make it a good advice to consider, but to prohibit it is a bit too far out.

Love
Hanne

[Aodhan the Unusual]

Banning is only for extreme cases or for those that apparently don't get the hint that metagaming is wrong.

[marklar]

dave i remember that moment, it would have changed many things but it still did..INFACT i would say it had more impact after all the meta and such...pretty sad day in FRC that day.

that was a truely extreme case, one were there were mutiple small bans and massive damage done to both sides. i've never heard of such a case before.

i think metagaming is bad BUT if someone does it and the other people use that info, who cares? it's the person who said their secrets fault, as i remember a post was called back in the day "be careful who you metagame with." crying about someone using something YOU said to them...well just doesn't make sense. the simple solution, don't tell people those kinds of things! or tell only those who you trust completely.

[Booze Hound]

the reason behind this is 99.9% because a lot of people aren't using much common sense with it.

i HATE rules more than I am willing to wager almost anyone here, but there is a lot that you guys havent seen that we have.

there have just been so many instances of people sending tells containing IC information that it was becoming a problem.

everyone posting here, you have commone sense? yes, i know you all do, I know most of you guys personally, you have nothing to worry about. This and 99.9% of all the rules that have been written in FRC are for those that do NOT have the common sense to play on FRC in the spirit in which FRC was meant to be played.

So...don;'t sweat it.

*hic*

[Toreavamp]

I'd also like to point out cases where OOC knowledge about the other character can be very useful for the fun part. I wont completely spoil it all, but a character of mine isn't as she pretends to be, I felt -very- bad for leading the one she dated blindly into this, so much that I considered stopping the play, because I knew the character didn't have much gold but I also knew this character of mine would try and use him to get things, even if she could afford it twice, she used him in spybusiness. I spoke with several people about what to do; if to tell the whole truth, or just part of it and after a couple of days I decided to tell parts of the truth, and it was great. Firstly I didn't feel OOCly bad for possibly ruining the other character and thusly possibly the other player's fun, but secondly it's turned out that we can do things a lot more freely and know where each other stands, I don't have to worry about the times where I'm to roll bluffs or persuades, and I also know better when one of these rolls are required, because we discuessed the characters' relation and feelings too.

And I'd still to this day reserve the right for me to decide what I say to someone else about my characters, in OOC tells. If I don't want to risk someone metagame it it's my own responcibility to not tell, this isn't a kindergarden, if it becomes a massive problems it's the community's responcibility to simply not play with those who metagame/ruin the fun for others, not some police from the staff. Now what I say about another character, that's a different matter, it's the part about one's own character I have troubles with.
If I can't have that right I'd like to report myself for just the other day telling stuff on Aren's background in a tell to another player, things when I get it written will be possible to be read in her characterprofile as OOC information anyway.

With all this said, I know all too well the things which can happen from metagaming, I've mentioned before that I've admined elsewhere, I've seen the bad cases, I've seen a player getting a permanent ban, I've seen temporeraly bans as well. It's not that I don't know all that. Eventually as I said the community have a responcibility too in this.

Love
Hanne

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

I would also like to add that sending a tell and posting a bio are very different. When sending a tell, you are almost forcing the player to read the information. if you tell them to go check out your bio on the forums, they still have the option of not looking at it.

And also this isnt limited to 2 players in tells. What happens if player A sends player B a tell. Player A trusts Player B and knows they won't metagame. But what if Player B goes on to tell player C and player C has no common sense and metagames it? Suddenly player A, not intentionally wanting the information to get out and sending it to their friend they know doesn't meta has a big problem on his hands.

[Toreavamp]

It's what I suspect it is too, but it's not what the rule says. "We all like to speak about our own character, but to give away what your character thinks or what they will do is the equivalent of telling a person who the murderer is in a mystery novel when they're only two chapters in." For all I can say this is about me telling about my character, it's not me telling about Doust' character.

Love
Hanne

[Laurk]

In the instance of telling people OOC about your characters dirty secrets, I would add that this is something you "can" do "if" you have permission from that player. Ive had people tell me their alighnments, what gods they worship, their neferious plans... everything OOC and that does two things for me. A) It robs me of the fun I would have of figuring it out, B) it puts me into a trap where im not sure at what point I can "figure it out" without that person screaming meta-game. This is a problem we DMs have to deal with almost daily. Someone complaining about being meta-gamed off of OOC info. The differance between putting your OOC info on the forums, and sending it via a tell to some unsuspecting player is that on the forums, it is my "choice" to read your background.

If you ask permission to give another player OOC info and they agree, then you can tell them what you want about YOUR character... however, be warned, its going to require a significant amount of proof, a chat log, and some pretty extreme circumstances before we will consider meta-gaming from that player you told your info to OOC when he "figures out" IC all of your dark secrets.

Laurk

[Toreavamp]

I think I'll just drop my case with the words I've said before, you guys are really too paranoid some times.
Also you really need consider if this is a kindergarden, if it's how the majority of players are viewed yes then such a rule as this is needed, if it's not that way it's viewed maybe it's about time the community lives up to the responcibility it has and either tells the players who metagame to stop or if that isn't working freeze them out, stop playing with them/talk with them.

Love
Hanne

[Laurk]

Being paranoid insinuates fearing a problem that might or might not exist. This problem is most certainly real, and therefore doesnt fit into the realm of paranoia. DMs encounter it almost daily in player complaints. Players handing OOC info to each other and than screaming about meta-gaming when one of the multitude of people they told comes back, saying they uncovered all the diry secrets through IC methods and therefore have every right to do whatever they want with the info. "Thats impossible, I was so carful, they must have meta-gamed it!" These complaints have to stop, and the best, most sure-fire way to do it, is to stop the spread of unwanted OOC info.

Get permission to talk about your character to another player before disgussing it. If people want to volunteer to put themselves into a meta-game mine field by hearing other peoples OOC info, then more power to them, but let the rest of the players have the choice to remain comfortably uniformed.

And for all those who insist that it should be okay to disguss everthing OOC and then go through the motions of RPing as if your characters dont know... do me a favor, and try it the other way. You'll find the experiance of role playing becomes vastly more immersive and fullfiling when you actually dont know who your friends are, and who is just pretending. Who is lying, and who isnt. The reactions are so much more realistic and exciting. For those of you who havent experianced this... try it. Then you'll see why most of us really just dont want to know OOC. The less OOC there is floating around, the purer and more realistic the game becomes.

Laurk

[Aodhan the Unusual]

disCuss - To talk about

disGuss - While technically doesn't exist, looks awfully similar to disgust, which is - to not like




But yes, Laurk is right. If you really must tell someone about your grandmaster plan to take over the Zhent keep and use it for your nefarious plans, please ask a player if they'd like to hear a super-awesome-totally-cool secret before just blurting it out. I know it's hard on me to try and hold back the things I know about characters when I'm told via tells, because over time, unless you write it down that it was OOC knowledge, the lines will blur and you'll start to think you learned it IC.

[Toreavamp]

I just feel like repeating myself

toreavamp said:

...maybe it's about time the community lives up to the responcibility it has and either tells the players who metagame to stop or if that isn't working freeze them out, stop playing with them/talk with them.

Futher I do not say the DMs do not have this trouble, I refer to the people who actually do the metagame screaming. They told it to someone who couldn't shut up. Punish the one who couldn't shut up and tell the person who told it to be more considering next time, do -not- punish the one who told, I trust they've already through the actions done IG had their punishment.
And I am fully aware of the glee from discovering things ICly, I've roleplayed the last 10+ years. Though as long as the post is modified to not tell me about my character and what to say I'm fine with it.

To summon it up, I do not have a problem with a rule about metagamers and what happen to them, nor do I have a problem with an advice to players to be careful what they say to who and to consider if they really really think that other person want to know, I do how ever have a problem with a rule prohibiting me for telling those things. Otherwise we completely agree on all the things said.

Love
Hanne

PS: I'm sorry if my tone in the two last post has been harsh or the likes, I had a rather bad day yesterday.

[Savage]

laurk said:

B) it puts me into a trap where im not sure at what point I can "figure it out" without that person screaming meta-game.

I agree with this comment. I mean I can use deductive reasoning to figure out things. Things that my character has come to believe that may or may not be true. Since I play my character as something of a detective type I try to be careful with what I allow people to tell me OOC. I have been asked more than once in a tell: Where did you HEAR that? or HOW do you know that?

I was asked IC to tell who a source was. When I refused IC I was asked OOC through a tell. I can’t answer that question because it exposes OOC info about another player. So if you asked me one of these questions and I avoided the answer then I am sorry I was not trying to be rude but trying to protect others and myself from claims of OOC info. Now I was asked How does Hoot know something from a DM once. I completely spilled the beans because it was a DM asking. However I wish that the DM had not asked because if he just kept listening he would have learned why Hoot thought what he thought and the OOC tell was not needed.

I try to use logic and actions to see the truth rather than listening to the stories I am told. I allow everyone to tell my character stories but he usually only looks for the -facts- in the stories that he can verify with others. Also, my character has told false information to different other characters to see there reactions or to help him learn something about some one else.

For example the other day I made a claim to one PC that I felt another was corrupt. The other PC totally defended the one I suggested migth be corrupt and so I now know –they- fully trust that source. This helps me track the flow of information or manipulate other to my bidding.. *insert evil laugh here*

[tskfrc58]

Now how about those character/players that , through various reasons, have had their character reduced to playing with a select few individuals that wont lop their heads off on sight?

Rather than wander the realms incessantly searching for their travel mates, what would you suggest? You cant realistically post on the message boards "Meet me a 5pm sunday, after i get home from work in (insert city)" Or its meta. You cant send someone a tell saying your gonna BE there at 5pm sunday after work.

I suppose you could just stand in (insert city) and ask passersby if theyve seen so and so, as if they know who they are, or wont report your presence to the authorities, shadow you, or kill you as soon as you leave town for trying to group up with an "undesireable"

The whole "sends a raven(killed on sight intown), familiar(killed on sight in town), or "messenger boy"(no graphic representation thereof) has been discussed to wits end in other threads, but seems to violate this new rule.

Moral bieng, for group formation, how do you go about telling your regular buddies where you are so they can come find you? Or is there an added intent to fracture the normal groups?

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

frc.proboards37.com/index.cgi?board=serverrules&action=display&thread=1174582835

Read the second line.

[Aodhan the Unusual]

It's one thing to send tells to people saying, "Hey, let's meet up in Redmist about 5pm."

It's another to send things like Suzy telling Joe "Bob's here in Suzail," when Joe is currently hunting Bob for a bounty and no where near Suzail.

Or Mike sending Rob a tell saying, "Hey, I had this great idea! I'm going to use Dan to get in to the high council and then work my way up to being leader of Nowhere..."

Or Billy sending Tina a tell saying, "Hey, guess what? Juggs is a Banite now! No one would ever guess he's an assassin too!"


The last three examples are good ways to ruin the game for others and set your character up to having things revealed about them that you wouldn't want to be made public knowledge. The first example is an acceptable use of tells. And yes, I understand about travelling with a select group of people that won't kill you on sight.

[ShadowCatJen]

Everyone, please take a look at the ruling again. The wording was changed to fit more of the criteria we're looking for.

I have refrained from saying things here due to several reasons. The largest being frustration.

One of the players that had become a victim of the recent metagaming outbreak, the team can not help. The situation happened a month ago and by the time we had heard of it, everyone and their mother seemed to know the information. We can not put some official announcement to just have everyone forget they ever learned it because a months worth of roleplay has occurred since then concerning it. Because of this there is a level of frustration for us as a DM crew.

The source of the metagaming had been because "friends" were talking to "friends" about this information OOCly. Unfortunately, because so many "friends" were chatting about it, we couldn't trace the source any more directly.

People, friends talk. You know how it goes. Folks may have their reasons for spilling OOC information to those they trust, but how do they know those they trust aren't passing information off to people they feel they can trust. This sort of thing happens, we know it does, we hear about it all the damn time.

I'd like everyone to consider several different things when you feel a need to give OOC information to someone.

- By telling the player of your character's dark secret then you have just cornered that player into reacting in a certain way. The player can't take measures to have their character figure things out IC, because that would bring calls forth of metagaming. It is very unfair to that player.

- By spilling information about your own character, you increase the risk of people metagaming. It may not even be the original person you told it to, but someone else in your friend's friend's friend's circle of friends.

- The mature way to play isn't to go about blabbing about what your character's plans are OOCly and trying to trust them or who they speak to to not metagame the information. The mature way is to actually let everything play out In Character and trust the player to react accordingly with no hurt OOC feelings.

- The player you're speaking to might not even want to know the OOC information and prefer to find things out legitimately via IC. Many find this to be a more meaningful way to find information and the IC reactions to such do come off far more genuine.

What we are asking for is a great deal more of decorum when it comes to telling people OOC information. We know we can't stop it, there is no possible way we can. However, if everyone simply refrains from doing so, then we'll end up with far fewer headaches.

This next bit is going to sound a little bit harsh:

No matter what your excuses may be for passing on the information, in the end it only ends up hurting the community as a whole. It comes down to a question if weather you as a player would rather have the DM crew run quests, or have to spend their time instead with metagaming issues. It is your call, but think hard before you do it.

If anyone has any personal issues regarding all this, please don't hesitate to PM me and I will be more then happy to discuss things.

[Toreavamp]

Looks absolutely great.

Love
Hanne