DM Q&A: merchant pricing: how low is too low

[EDM Entori]

hiya

DM richard wrote:
"Twinking is giving a character any gear that gives him an edge that he couldn't be able to afford on his own at that point"

So as a merchants are now fairly common on the server, how low is too low? how low is 'giving away' an edge that he couldn't be able to afford on his own at that point?

I mean I've seen 12k(at 32 appraise) items sold for as low as 2500, 120k full plate going for 32k.

While the prices are not locked into the system. I'm just curious if the Dm's have a rule for too low, or if it applies at all? I had a discussion with another player deciding to bring it up for clarification.

[DM Richard (Retired)]

That is a good question and one we will need to discuss. There is more to it than just the price of the item though.

For example that 120K suit of armor sold for 32K gold to a level 18 character who has 120K of gold is not as close to twinking as it would be if it was sold to a level 12 character who can barely scrape together 32K gold.

We will discuss this and try to clarify.

[DM Richard (Retired)]

Items shouldn't be sold for less than 50% of what they can be bought for in stores. If someone can't afford it at 50% then most likely it would be twinking for them to have it at all.

If the item isn't for sale in any store, then it should be sold for a minimum of 2.5 times the amount you can get from a store merchant.

Selling at these values should keep you out of danger of getting into trouble over twinking.

[EDM Entori]

thanks

[dmimmersion]

And please use common sense if you have an appraise score that is out of this world that allows you to get items really cheap...

[EDM Entori]

IE if I were to buy item X, that is 10000, and have super appraise to make it 5000, selling it for 2500 is would be wrong (my personal opinion is yes)

if it cost 10k normally 5000 is min price.

and can we get this added somewhere that everyone sees this, maybe the rules?

thanks alot to both dm rich/ immersion.

[canuckkane]

this is precisely why I decided to go with the 2.5x the amount a store will pay for the item. It already factors high appraise into it.

[EDM Entori]

can I get a clarification if its either 2.5x, or 50% of the items price if found in store.

IE can the player pick and choose? example probably be a necklace of int +1, sells at 800 or so with a appraise of 32, double that is only 1600

for an item I've seen upwards to 12000, as low as 9000 going through.

I personally think around 6000 is the right price. some would argue with me over that it is only a +1. but I feel in the environment that we're in +1 is a fairly big step, as it should be to each circle.

So can it be picked, or must you do one or the other giving the circumstances.

[EDM Neo]

Sorry for posting in someone else's DM Q&A, but just while we're asking for clarifications on the same topic, to save making a new one...

What about items that are sold for different prices in different shops, not all of which are known or accessible to all PCs?

Or sell for different prices to different shops, not all of which are known or accessible to all PCs?

And what about items that are severely over or under valued in shops, where their price doesn't reflect their actual usefulness?

The only stable numerical indication of an item's value, that remains independent of the PC's appraise skill and the shop in question, is the item's value in the tool set, which isn't readily viewable without actual use of the tool set, nor is it really anything that could be determined ICly.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that trying to make hard and fast rules, rather then just guidelines, for how cheap is too cheap might be too difficult if based on shop prices which can fluctuate so wildly and readily... but, if there's going to be an actual rule for how you determine what the minimum an item can be sold for is, I'd like to be clear on just how it should be done so that I can follow it without inadvertently breaking it.

[Munroe]

May 29, 2008 14:32:27 GMT -5 EDM Entori said:

can I get a clarification if its either 2.5x, or 50% of the items price if found in store.

IE can the player pick and choose? example probably be a necklace of int +1, sells at 800 or so with a appraise of 32, double that is only 1600

for an item I've seen upwards to 12000, as low as 9000 going through.

I personally think around 6000 is the right price. some would argue with me over that it is only a +1. but I feel in the environment that we're in +1 is a fairly big step, as it should be to each circle.

So can it be picked, or must you do one or the other giving the circumstances.

Entori, if you reread what Richard said above, you'll see he already answered your question. The 50% and 2.5x values were for different situations.

Apr 2, 2008 9:16:02 GMT -5 DM Richard (Retired) said:

Items shouldn't be sold for less than 50% of what they can be bought for in stores. If someone can't afford it at 50% then most likely it would be twinking for them to have it at all.

If the item isn't for sale in any store, then it should be sold for a minimum of 2.5 times the amount you can get from a store merchant.

[Munroe]

May 29, 2008 14:51:10 GMT -5 EDM Neo said:

Sorry for posting in someone else's DM Q&A, but just while we're asking for clarifications on the same topic, to save making a new one...

What about items that are sold for different prices in different shops, not all of which are known or accessible to all PCs?

Or sell for different prices to different shops, not all of which are known or accessible to all PCs?

And what about items that are severely over or under valued in shops, where their price doesn't reflect their actual usefulness?

The only stable numerical indication of an item's value, that remains independent of the PC's appraise skill and the shop in question, is the item's value in the tool set, which isn't readily viewable without actual use of the tool set, nor is it really anything that could be determined ICly.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that trying to make hard and fast rules, rather then just guidelines, for how cheap is too cheap might be too difficult if based on shop prices which can fluctuate so wildly and readily... but, if there's going to be an actual rule for how you determine what the minimum an item can be sold for is, I'd like to be clear on just how it should be done so that I can follow it without inadvertently breaking it.

You can use the best price you can get for it in a store to calculate your price. If you choose not to use that price because it's a store that would be hard to access by the player, I would say that's your choice.

Usefulness of the item isn't the issue, only the cost. If you think something is underpriced in the shops, that's something you should forward to a DM as the price may need adjusted.

[EDM Entori]

May 29, 2008 15:07:34 GMT -5 Munroe said:

May 29, 2008 14:32:27 GMT -5 EDM Entori said:

can I get a clarification if its either 2.5x, or 50% of the items price if found in store.

IE can the player pick and choose? example probably be a necklace of int +1, sells at 800 or so with a appraise of 32, double that is only 1600

for an item I've seen upwards to 12000, as low as 9000 going through.

I personally think around 6000 is the right price. some would argue with me over that it is only a +1. but I feel in the environment that we're in +1 is a fairly big step, as it should be to each circle.

So can it be picked, or must you do one or the other giving the circumstances.

Entori, if you reread what Richard said above, you'll see he already answered your question. The 50% and 2.5x values were for different situations.

Apr 2, 2008 9:16:02 GMT -5 DM Richard (Retired) said:

Items shouldn't be sold for less than 50% of what they can be bought for in stores. If someone can't afford it at 50% then most likely it would be twinking for them to have it at all.

If the item isn't for sale in any store, then it should be sold for a minimum of 2.5 times the amount you can get from a store merchant.

I understood it fine, it was an open ended question so that it would be confirmed for others to read...

kinda like your inclass and your teacher is saying something you get but is not quite going into it, or someone missed a point, so you ask a question to lead the instructor into giving the right information


Thanks for replying

[Munroe]

You know the other students tend to hate that guy, right?

But anyway, that's not a discussion for the DM Q&A.

[SlothfulCat]

I've just been informed that these pricing restrictions apply to merchant PCs buying "loot" from other PC that are just trying to get more money than they can selling them to NPCs... so does this rule work in this manner as well? Aka: Controling how much a merchant PC has to pay to secure goods for resale? If so.. can we increase the NPC purchase prices to from 15% to 50% as well?

[Munroe]

Jul 19, 2008 7:32:05 GMT -5 SlothfulCat said:

I've just been informed that these pricing restrictions apply to merchant PCs buying "loot" from other PC that are just trying to get more money than they can selling them to NPCs... so does this rule work in this manner as well? Aka: Controling how much a merchant PC has to pay to secure goods for resale? If so.. can we increase the NPC purchase prices to from 15% to 50% as well?

Yes, the pricing here includes situations of "merchant PCs" buying loot from other players as well. Merchant PCs for the sake of this rule are just PCs and this rule applies for PCs selling things to other PCs regardless of merchant status.

The prices NPCs pay for items are not going to change in the foreseeable future.

The economy is not designed so Billy can buy Magic Belt from Tom then turn around and sell it to NPC Guy for more gold than Billy paid to Tom. If Billy buys the belt from Tom, he can turn around and sell it to Jane for more than he paid Tom. In this way the item stays among PCs and does not just pass through a middle man to an NPC for the middle man's profit.

[SlothfulCat]

Alright... so PC buying at just above NPC prices from PC to sell at higher price at later time to NPC - not allowed.

but... PC buying between NPC Prices and 50% from PC to sell at higher price at later time to PC - is allowed?

AKA: Group just came from X dungeon and are splitting up loot.. I see Y item on the ground.. and they want to sell it to the NPC... I am allowed to interceed and pick my merchandise without being forced to make an ungodly high offer over what they would get otherwise?

And if I have to pay the group at -least- 50% price... I do not have to worry that it will be considered twinking to give them so much more money than they would get otherwise ((Think with 2 or 3 appraise a +1 con belt goes to a NPC at 500gps while following the 50% rule makes that 3000gps the group would get.... using aria's ridiculous appraise, and not what 50% is for most PCs))... ?

I know these are specific questions but it seems I've just been told the way PCs have been handling their PC-PC trade since this rule went into issue has been illegal the whole time.

[Munroe]

Jul 19, 2008 9:58:51 GMT -5 SlothfulCat said:

Alright... so PC buying at just above NPC prices from PC to sell at higher price at later time to NPC - not allowed.

but... PC buying between NPC Prices and 50% from PC to sell at higher price at later time to PC - is allowed?

AKA: Group just came from X dungeon and are splitting up loot.. I see Y item on the ground.. and they want to sell it to the NPC... I am allowed to interceed and pick my merchandise without being forced to make an ungodly high offer over what they would get otherwise?

And if I have to pay the group at -least- 50% price... I do not have to worry that it will be considered twinking to give them so much more money than they would get otherwise ((Think with 2 or 3 appraise a +1 con belt goes to a NPC at 500gps while following the 50% rule makes that 3000gps the group would get.... using aria's ridiculous appraise, and not what 50% is for most PCs))... ?

I know these are specific questions but it seems I've just been told the way PCs have been handling their PC-PC trade since this rule went into issue has been illegal the whole time.

You have to pay the same for it whether they just got it in a dungeon or whether they've been walking around with it for two weeks. (The exact amount would be detailed above.) If you were with them in the dungeon then it can be split as normal for loot.

As for using your "ungodly" appraise score to find out the price, you can use it to find out prices to sell by and mark up on prices for items otherwise sold in shops (it only determines minimum price) and use whichever appraise score works out as the better deal for you in the buying department. (Of course it may be that they figure the price based on their appraise score and that doesn't necessarily work for your advantage...but sometimes you win some, sometimes you lose some.)

[DM Valkyrie]

We were asked about this recently by a player, and I thought I'd bump the thread (since I finally found it!).

PC merchants keep in mind to sell items at no less than 50% of what it would cost from an NPC merchant, or, if the item cannot be found in stores, for 2.5X over the price offered by an NPC merchant.

[EDM Entori]

if I am corrected for items not found in stores.

(such as an admanteen helm) and I know there are similiar found in stores.



but the crafted items.. the 2.5x rule is correct eh?

[yago]

Oct 16, 2009 15:03:41 GMT -5 DM Valkyrie said:

We were asked about this recently by a player, and I thought I'd bump the thread (since I finally found it!).

PC merchants keep in mind to sell items at no less than 50% of what it would cost from an NPC merchant, or, if the item cannot be found in stores, for 2.5X over the price offered by an NPC merchant.

Hello to anyone reading this,

I would like to make sure my understanding of something on this topic is correct. I would invite the DMs in attendance to set me straight.

My understanding of what I have read in this thread is as follows:

If a PC with a Greatgaunt merchant's license wants to sell something to another PC in Greatgaunt jurisdiction, the item must be sold for:
- a minimum of 50% of what the item would cost if a PC was to buy it from a NPC shopkeeper / merchant. (I will hereafter refer to this formula as the "50% formula").

And, that if a NPC shop-keeper / merchant who sells the item is not found by the PC Merchant, only THEN can the PC Merchant offer to instead set a selling price (to another PC) of a minimum of 2.5 times the value at which a NPC shop-keeper / merchant would offer to buy the item. (I will refer to this formula hereafter as the "2.5x formula").

Is that correct?

I ask because OOCly some players have expressed that my PC has the OPTION of choosing one or the other of the above formulae (that is to say, either the 50% formula, OR the 2.5x formula), whereas my attempt to understand this thread leads me to believe the 50% formula supersedes the 2.5x formula.

Now on a related note, and well and aside from all that... I only read this thread for the first time recently, and before doing so, I was having Yago simply sell to other PCs for whatever the NPC would buy it for, plus 100 lions or so for inventorying costs (I can't see it in his personality to be in it for straight profit). NOW that I have read this thread, and once I have clarification on my earlier question, I would appreciate confirmation (and hopefully consensus) from DM(s) that Yago is either:

- OK to continue selling as he has been (he did get 170 XP from one of his previous transactions, though the DM watching at the time may not have realised Yago was underselling - I mean, I sure didn't!)

OR

- NOT ok to continue selling as he has been, and must adhere to the correct formula (whatever it is - awaiting a response to my first question for that).

Thank you for taking the time to read this long post!

Playaaaa (of Yago M.)

[happypanda]

*bumps*

[Munroe]

Yes, there is really a formula out there to distinguish merchants from twinkers. The order of precedence is as playaaa interprets it.

My understanding of what I have read in this thread is as follows: If a PC with a Greatgaunt merchant's license wants to sell something to another PC in Greatgaunt jurisdiction, the item must be sold for: - a minimum of 50% of what the item would cost if a PC was to buy it from a NPC shopkeeper / merchant. (I will hereafter refer to this formula as the "50% formula"). And, that if a NPC shop-keeper / merchant who sells the item is not found by the PC Merchant, only THEN can the PC Merchant offer to instead set a selling price (to another PC) of a minimum of 2.5 times the value at which a NPC shop-keeper / merchant would offer to buy the item. (I will refer to this formula hereafter as the "2.5x formula"). Is that correct?

That is correct.

It doesn't apply to crafted items but to found items and purchased items that are being resold. Crafted items have a base crafting cost so things shouldn't be sold for less than it. Ideally there should be some mark-up as well, but minimum mark-up isn't specified explicitly. (In some cases, such as scrolls, crafting an item costs more than it costs to buy it so there's no good uniform formula for crafted items.)

In a few cases of crafting, we ask that players not resell them at all, such as with that one paladin spell that is a weapon enchantment. Holy Sword, I think. Paladins can scribe it very very cheap for some reason and it has a high caster level/long duration and a lot of benefits to the user. If they sell it at a competitive price with the market, they make a fortune. If they sell it based on how much it costs them, they put a very powerful weapon into circulation for very little gold.

[Munroe]

Jan 23, 2010 0:13:40 GMT -5 Munroe said:

In a few cases of crafting, we ask that players not resell them at all, such as with that one paladin spell that is a weapon enchantment. Holy Sword, I think. Paladins can scribe it very very cheap for some reason and it has a high caster level/long duration and a lot of benefits to the user. If they sell it at a competitive price with the market, they make a fortune. If they sell it based on how much it costs them, they put a very powerful weapon into circulation for very little gold.

It's actually Bless Weapon, not Holy Sword.

[Munroe]

Bumping the merchant pricing threads. Note that the Merchant License has been updated with set minimum prices for many common item types.

The pricing minimums (50% of shop or the license-listed minimum) still apply whether the seller is licensed as a merchant or not. That includes when a licensed merchant PC is buying items from an unlicensed (non-merchant) PC.