DM Q&A: Spell: Protection from Alignment Spells

[HeatherRae]

In the book form of D&D, there are various Protection from Alignment spells - Good, Evil, Chaos, Law. As I remember it, if you were not of the opposing alignment, you could not cast the spell (i.e. an evil person cannot cast a protection from evil spell, a lawful person cannot cast a protection from law spell, but a neutral person can cast any of them, etc.).

In NWN, however, it appears that there are only two protection from alignment spells - protection from good, and protection from evil. What's more, ANYONE can cast protection from good and protection from evil. While you can equip only the opposing alignment in your quickslots (i.e. a good person gets protection from evil, an evil person gets protection from good), the radial menu allows you to cast either spell.

Also, in the books, I believe the protection spells have descriptors - good, evil, chaos, law (it may actually be that they are in the Evil, Good, Lawful, and Chaos Domains and I'm getting them mixed up, but I don't have the PHB on hand to look it up in). But in NWN, there is no descriptor, and the spell appears netural.

So, my question is, what is up with this? SHOULD you be able to cast protection from evil if you're evil, or protection from good if you're good? Is it a bug? What happens if you do so? If it's a flaw in the system, and we really shouldn't be able to cast both, should we ignore the option to cast the ones we shouldnt' be able to use?

Mind you, I never even considered the situation prior to this because the last time I played a tabletop D&D campaign was over a year ago and it was set in Ravenloft, where you get evil points for using Raise Dead and for even *learning* Fireball. I didn't even think heavily about it until Lydia Rosewater's player (whom I believe is Wolf Munroe?) mentioned it in the welcome area.

So, anyway, those are my questions.

((Edited for some clarity. Not much, but some!))

[Munroe]

The spell descriptions as I read them in the Player's Handbook does not limit them to being cast by a particular alignment. It does, however, state that they have a particular alignment, corresponding to the opposite alignment from their name. As such, Protection from Good is an evil spell.

Deities in Faerun cannot be everywhere and watch everything their divine spellcasters do. They are not omnipotent. As such, they don't see every spell that every cleric is using and, while they do grant the spells, they don't watch every spell every cleric prepares with a fine-tooth comb. However, repeated use of an evil spell can, and should, have repercussions for a good cleric.

However, to my knowledge, FRC has no stated rule to this end.

Some characters may know in-character that the spell is an evil spell, which can have ramifications for character interaction.

[HeatherRae]

wolfmunroe said:

The spell descriptions as I read them in the Player's Handbook does not limit them to being cast by a particular alignment. It does, however, state that they have a particular alignment, corresponding to the opposite alignment from their name. As such, Protection from Good is an evil spell.

Deities in Faerun cannot be everywhere and watch everything their divine spellcasters do. They are not omnipotent. As such, they don't see every spell that every cleric is using and, while they do grant the spells, they don't watch every spell every cleric prepares with a fine-tooth comb. However, repeated use of an evil spell can, and should, have repercussions for a good cleric.

However, to my knowledge, FRC has no stated rule to this end.

Some characters may know in-character that the spell is an evil spell, which can have ramifications for character interaction.

The reason I'm confused is that my book doesn't have it with an Evil Descriptor. What my book has is no descriptor, HOWEVER, the spells are part of the Domains of Good, Evil, Chaos, Law, etc. (i.e. Protection from Good is in the Evil Domain, Chaos is in the Law Domain, etc etc). That's why I'm confused. My book doesn't show Protection from Good as Evil, nor does it show protection from Chaos as Lawful, as it were. Et cetera.

[Munroe]

Protection from Good Abjuration [Evil] Level: Clr 1, Evil 1, Sor/Wiz 1

That is as it appears in my PHB 3.5e, pg. 266.

[HeatherRae]

wolfmunroe said:

Protection from Good Abjuration [Evil] Level: Clr 1, Evil 1, Sor/Wiz 1

That is as it appears in my PHB 3.5e, pg. 266.

Alright. Thanks.

--------------------------

Just thought of something - because quite a few players don't actually have the PHB and whatnot (given that you don't exactly need them to play here), would it be possible for this information to be posted somewhere where players would read? After all, I cannot tell you how often I see clerics I KNOW are evil with Protection from Evil on them. And surely if it's bad for a good cleric to cast Protection from Good, it's bad for an evil cleric to cast Protection from Evil.

Just a thought.

[Munroe]

heatherrae said:

Just thought of something - because quite a few players don't actually have the PHB and whatnot (given that you don't exactly need them to play here), would it be possible for this information to be posted somewhere where players would read? After all, I cannot tell you how often I see clerics I KNOW are evil with Protection from Evil on them. And surely if it's bad for a good cleric to cast Protection from Good, it's bad for an evil cleric to cast Protection from Evil.

Just a thought.

As I'm a lazy blowhard (but not too lazy to respond), I would say I don't want to look through the spells to see which ones are evil or not to post them up.

That and, certainly more importantly, not everyone would know which spells are evil and which aren't. If there's a particular spell that you have a question about, I'd say asking regarding that spell and your character is the best idea. As Protection from Alignment is a level 1 spell, those who can cast it (especially divine casters) probably should be aware that it has an alignment and its corresponding higher level spells (magic circle, magic aura) do as well.

All spells (but not necessarily spell-like abilities) that summon/create undead are also evil, but not necessarily all necromantic spells. As to which ones...

Finally, regarding evil clerics using protection from Evil... They may have to take that up with their gods some day. Doing a little good to do great evil seems like a fair exchange to me though. In the case of good divine spellcasters, they have to deal with the cliche "The ends don't justify the means." Talosian clerics need not worry too much since Talos pretty much gives them free reign so long as they meet his requirement he places on them for divine spells.

[Munroe]

rpchallenged said:

On a similar note, I recently received a polite tell that protection from alignment has no visible effect. I'm sure if I looked up the spell in a handbook the player is probably correct, but as heather pointed out, it can be confusing when the game engine show's an effect that may not be in accordance with the handbook. If it's an invisible effect, there wouldn't be any little colored lights to indicate which spell had been cast.

I would love for the visual effect to be removed from Protection from Alignment. We have the means to remove the visual effects from spells (note Barkskin, Stoneskin, and True Seeing) so if you can see it on the character then we haven't removed the effect, which I would take to mean you can see it in-character.

Also worth noting, the visual effect for Protection from Evil is shared with at least two other spells. What you may be thinking is Protection from Evil might be something else.

[HeatherRae]

wolfmunroe said:

As I'm a lazy blowhard (but not too lazy to respond), I would say I don't want to look through the spells to see which ones are evil or not to post them up.

That and, certainly more importantly, not everyone would know which spells are evil and which aren't. If there's a particular spell that you have a question about, I'd say asking regarding that spell and your character is the best idea. As Protection from Alignment is a level 1 spell, those who can cast it (especially divine casters) probably should be aware that it has an alignment and its corresponding higher level spells (magic circle, magic aura) do as well.

All spells (but not necessarily spell-like abilities) that summon/create undead are also evil, but not necessarily all necromantic spells. As to which ones...

Finally, regarding evil clerics using protection from Evil... They may have to take that up with their gods some day. Doing a little good to do great evil seems like a fair exchange to me though. In the case of good divine spellcasters, they have to deal with the cliche "The ends don't justify the means." Talosian clerics need not worry too much since Talos pretty much gives them free reign so long as they meet his requirement he places on them for divine spells.

Actually, have you been around someone when its cast? It's pretty creepy - when the mage in our party told my character to cast it on someone (and at the time, I didn't realize it was evil - I should break out the old PHB more often, y'know), the effect given for the casting creeped my character out, and in game she was like, "I really don't like this spell. I don't want to cast it." I personally think that's a clue right there.

Also, I may not be able to see the sparkly lights (although, that really IS confusing that you can see them in game but you can't *really* see them, etc), but if I can see the caster *cast* the spell, then I think I should know (if I can spellcraft it). What do you think?

((Edited because I can't spell. *weeps*))

[Grozer]

wolfmunroe said:

heatherrae said:

Just thought of something - because quite a few players don't actually have the PHB and whatnot (given that you don't exactly need them to play here), would it be possible for this information to be posted somewhere where players would read? After all, I cannot tell you how often I see clerics I KNOW are evil with Protection from Evil on them. And surely if it's bad for a good cleric to cast Protection from Good, it's bad for an evil cleric to cast Protection from Evil.

Just a thought.

As I'm a lazy blowhard (but not too lazy to respond), I would say I don't want to look through the spells to see which ones are evil or not to post them up.

That and, certainly more importantly, not everyone would know which spells are evil and which aren't. If there's a particular spell that you have a question about, I'd say asking regarding that spell and your character is the best idea. As Protection from Alignment is a level 1 spell, those who can cast it (especially divine casters) probably should be aware that it has an alignment and its corresponding higher level spells (magic circle, magic aura) do as well.

All spells (but not necessarily spell-like abilities) that summon/create undead are also evil, but not necessarily all necromantic spells. As to which ones...

Finally, regarding evil clerics using protection from Evil... They may have to take that up with their gods some day. Doing a little good to do great evil seems like a fair exchange to me though. In the case of good divine spellcasters, they have to deal with the cliche "The ends don't justify the means." Talosian clerics need not worry too much since Talos pretty much gives them free reign so long as they meet his requirement he places on them for divine spells.

Ok so I have a slightly different take... um.. I dont see any need to answer a god about using protection from evil by an evil cleric.. I dont believe there is any issue with it...

Evil aligned clerics have enemies that are evil, it doesnt mean they are foresaken their gods power to protect themselves. A Banite cleric, lets say , doesnt necessarily like Cyricists... he or she might be all too willing to destroy them on sight. Considering they are evil too, I see it perfectly acceptable for said cleric to protect himself before wasting the Cyricists. Does it mean he is good? Umm no... does it mean his god would be angry for destroying evil? no... of course I could insert any other evil beasty in place of Cyrics and the answer would hold true. At the end of the day, an evil deity doesnt care if their followers destroy other evil so long as their dogma is pushed forward. I could be wrong but that's always been my take on it..

On the other hand you cannot make the same arguement in my humble opinion for protection from good... the FACT that you need protection from good (since in theory they shouldnt be agressive unless you DID something to provoke it) is in itself completely an evil act not to mention an oxymoron (for lack of a better term).

[Munroe]

I don't disagree with what you said, Grozer. I was trying to make the point that Good clerics are held to a higher standard than Evil clerics in that regard by the whole "The ends don't justify the means" argument for good clerics. Whereas evil clerics may not (probably aren't) beholden to that standard.

Ultimately it comes down to individual gods. The deity's alignment can matter too because, for instance, some LG clerics worship LN deities and vice versa. Some CN clerics worship CG deities and vice versa. If a deity allows neutral aligned clerics then I would see that deity accepting that their clerics use spells of opposing alignments sometimes. They do, after all, allow neutral clerics. In the case of NG gods which only allow good-aligned clerics, I think they would have more of a problem with opposing alignment spells than deities that allow LN/N/CN clerics.

I would also say that paladins, no matter what deity, would not be casting Protection from Good because of their oaths. (I think engine-wise they may be able to cast it.) Being a paladin is about more than just what your god allows.

[Munroe]

heatherrae said:

Also, I may not be able to see the sparkly lights (although, that really IS confusing that you can see them in game but you can't *really* see them, etc), but if I can see the caster *cast* the spell, then I think I should know (if I can spellcraft it). What do you think?

If you identify a spell with Spellcraft during the casting of that spell then you definitely know what it is.

I did also say above that unless the scripted visual effect is removed, it can be seen that there is magic on the person. You may not be able to identify it accurately that way though since Protection from Evil is not the only spell that uses its effect. (Though I think Protection from Good may be the only spell with its effect.)

wolfmunroe said:

I would love for the visual effect to be removed from Protection from Alignment. We have the means to remove the visual effects from spells (note Barkskin, Stoneskin, and True Seeing) so if you can see it on the character then we haven't removed the effect, which I would take to mean you can see it in-character.

Also worth noting, the visual effect for Protection from Evil is shared with at least two other spells. What you may be thinking is Protection from Evil might be something else.

[HeatherRae]

wolfmunroe said:

heatherrae said:

Also, I may not be able to see the sparkly lights (although, that really IS confusing that you can see them in game but you can't *really* see them, etc), but if I can see the caster *cast* the spell, then I think I should know (if I can spellcraft it). What do you think?

If you identify a spell with Spellcraft during the casting of that spell then you definitely know what it is.

I did also say above that unless the scripted visual effect is removed, it can be seen that there is magic on the person. You may not be able to identify it accurately that way though since Protection from Evil is not the only spell that uses its effect. (Though I think Protection from Good may be the only spell with its effect.)

wolfmunroe said:

I would love for the visual effect to be removed from Protection from Alignment. We have the means to remove the visual effects from spells (note Barkskin, Stoneskin, and True Seeing) so if you can see it on the character then we haven't removed the effect, which I would take to mean you can see it in-character.

Also worth noting, the visual effect for Protection from Evil is shared with at least two other spells. What you may be thinking is Protection from Evil might be something else.

Ohhhh. I misread.

I happily misidentify spells all the time. ^_^