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Post by uriziel on Aug 8, 2019 12:18:35 GMT -5
So, was just wondering about some things in my own oddity. This isn’t pertaining to any character I’m making, just a general curiosity.
For the set up:
Paladins of Torm can multiclass as any one class. (Order of the Golden Lion)
Sun Soul monks can multiclass in any one class, so long as their monk level stays higher.
My question is this: Can the paladins of Torm multiclass into monk? Can the Sun Soul monks multiclass into paladin?
It says any one class, which could mean that it could, so it got me to thinking.
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Post by DM Sauron on Aug 8, 2019 13:53:27 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that the answers are: No, paladins of Torm cannot multiclass freely into monks. And no, monks of the Sun Soul cannot multiclass freely into paladins. Even if monk would be listed as a possibility for tormish paladins, the would be monk would need to join a monastic order that allows multiclassing into paladins. If memory serves right, only the Hin Fist order offers this possibility and they worship Yondalla. Even if paladin is techincally listed as a possibility for the Sun Soul monks, no paladin order (that follows Sune or Lathander) allows its members to multiclass into monk. Then, Selune has no canon paladin orders anyways. Basically, the only way for having free multiclassing as a paladin/monk in FRC, is to belong to the Hin Fist and be a paladin of Yondalla's order.
Lawful organizations and walks of life in the FR are like that...
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Post by uriziel on Aug 8, 2019 15:48:31 GMT -5
Cool, I do have a secondary question then.
Can I begin taking paladin or monk later after taking a class outside of the restrictions? Say someone started as a fighter when the when order doesn't multiclass freely into fighters.
According to D&D rules, there's no reason why someone can't someone can't, in fact it specifically mentions multiclass characters starting up as something else and going into monk.
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Post by DM Sauron on Aug 8, 2019 18:47:31 GMT -5
Cool, I do have a secondary question then. Can I begin taking paladin or monk later after taking a class outside of the restrictions? Say someone started as a fighter when the when order doesn't multiclass freely into fighters. According to D&D rules, there's no reason why someone can't someone can't, in fact it specifically mentions multiclass characters starting up as something else and going into monk.
Thing is, the moment you take a class that is not listed as allowed for either paladin or monk, the character then becomes an "ex-paladin" or "ex-monk". The character retains the paladin or monk class features, but the levels will be locked for either of the classes from now on.
The issue with Torm, is that even if it is not impossible he has monks serving him, his monks are not allowed to multiclass freely (without getting the class locked) because they have no official order.
His paladins can multiclass if they belong to the Golden Lion order, but they cannot go monk, because, again, there is no official monastic order in source that is linked to Torm. Yes, monks can be faithless, but faithless monks usually cannot multiclass freely either. I suppose they could still multiclass and have their monk levels locked, but what is the point?
By taking levels of monk with your paladin, you would get the paladins levels locked, but then so would be the monk ones because there is no tormish monastic order that supports the two classes combined.
Edit: By taking levels of paladin with you monk, then I suppose it could be possible. Monk levels would be locked the moment you take paladin though. Munroe ?
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Post by DM Sauron on Aug 8, 2019 19:09:31 GMT -5
The only possibility that I see, is to begin as monk, take as many monk levels as you want, and then (if worthy or whatever RP) go Torm paladin in the Golden Lion Order and never go back to monk.
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Post by Munroe on Aug 9, 2019 1:58:36 GMT -5
So, was just wondering about some things in my own oddity. This isn’t pertaining to any character I’m making, just a general curiosity. For the set up: Paladins of Torm can multiclass as any one class. (Order of the Golden Lion) Sun Soul monks can multiclass in any one class, so long as their monk level stays higher. My question is this: Can the paladins of Torm multiclass into monk? Can the Sun Soul monks multiclass into paladin? It says any one class, which could mean that it could, so it got me to thinking.
On a related question. Are PC's required to start as a monk? I thought I heard once that monks and paladins are required to begin as such, but I may have just imagined that. If the order doesn't allow for the class they start as, then they can't multi-class into paladin or monk. The same rule applies for taking level 1 in the class as applies for every other level. So no, they don't have to start as a paladin or a monk, but they do have to start as a class allowed by their paladin or monk order, and they have to follow the applicable rules of that order. So, for instance, Old Order, which specifies that monk levels must be higher than the total of all their other possible class levels (rogue, sorcerer, and/or shadowdancer) would have to start as a monk, and maintain their monk level higher than the combined totals of their other levels. The same goes for Sun Soul monks, who can have any one other class (provided that class isn't otherwise restricted) as long as their monk level is higher. In these cases, the monk class must be taken first so it can be higher at the start of the multi-classing, and they'd have to take two levels of monk before multi-classing. Monks of the Hin Fist, which allows, rogue, fighter, and paladin [of Yondalla] multiclassing, could start as a monk, rogue, fighter, or paladin, and multiclass into monk. Note that a paladin/monk of Yondalla could not take the Hin-fist allowed rogue or fighter classes and continue to take paladin levels, because their paladin order doesn't allow them. Paladins of Yondalla (order: Shields of Yondalla) could start as a monk of the Hin Fist and multi-class into paladin, as long as they didn't also have rogue or fighter classes, because the Shields of Yondalla paladin order doesn't allow those multi-class options. Making sense? A paladin of the Order of the Golden Lion could not multiclass as a monk because there is no monk order that will accept a paladin OF THE GOLDEN LION. A Sun Soul monk cannot multiclass as a paladin because there is no paladin order that will accept a monk OF THE SUN SOUL. To go either direction in these orders would require a change of faith that would invalidate the previous order. (Also, Sun Soul must maintain monk as their highest level class.) Paladins of Yondalla and Monks of the Hin Fist can multi-class freely either direction though, as long as they don't have any other conflicting classes.
Also, as relates to starting as some other class before becoming a monk or paladin: Is this an FRC rule or a PNP rule? I admit it's been years since I last read up on the 3rd edition source book but I don't remember such a rule This I think comes from "the Deities Do’s and Don’ts web supplement, pgs. 7-8" In other words, a 3rd edition source. The FRC rule regarding not multiclassing into level one of monk or paladin with classes outside of an order's allowed classes it an interpretation that applies the same standard to level one in the monk or paladin class as is applied to all other levels of the class. The individual multi-classing options are from Deity Do's and Don'ts. |
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Aug 9, 2019 10:34:33 GMT -5
A challenge!
Sooooo... A paladin of Torm could still become an orderless monk who then would have to stop progressing as a monk after taking a level in either paladin. No?
Seems like it'd fit the criteria.
1) Starting as the Paladin of Torm allows free multiclassing with any other class, including monk.
2) An orderless monk cannot freely multiclass with any other class but can't return to monk levels.
A paladin of the Golden Lion could freely multiclass with any other singular class. So an orderless monk (which are allowed as far as I'm aware) wouldn't have an issue returning to the Order of the Golden Lion since they never left the Order of the Golden Lion to begin with. They'd just have to harness that sweet, sweet ki power, and that super ridiculous run speed, before returning to the path of the righteous and awesome.
Probably should have posted this in the other thread, but too late.
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Post by Hoary Hunter on Aug 9, 2019 10:58:20 GMT -5
A challenge! Sooooo... A paladin of Torm could still become an orderless monk who then would have to stop progressing as a monk after taking a level in either paladin. No? Seems like it'd fit the criteria. 1) Starting as the Paladin of Torm allows free multiclassing with any other class, including monk. 2) An orderless monk cannot freely multiclass with any other class but can't return to monk levels. A paladin of the Golden Lion could freely multiclass with any other singular class. So an orderless monk (which are allowed as far as I'm aware) wouldn't have an issue returning to the Order of the Golden Lion since they never left the Order of the Golden Lion to begin with. They'd just have to harness that sweet, sweet ki power, and that super ridiculous run speed, before returning to the path of the righteous and awesome. Probably should have posted this in the other thread, but too late. A Paladin of the Order of the Golden Lion (Torm's faithful) still need to follow requirements of the other class they wish to become (EG they can't become bards because bards cannot be Lawful, or in the case of monk, they cannot become a monk because an orderless monk doesn't meet the requirements or a monk of the Sun Soul doesn't meet the deity requirements to be a paladin of Torm). An orderless monk doesn't have paladin as being free to multi-class option so the paladin can't multi-class into an orderless monk. A Monk of Torm that was without an order (or in an unofficial order/one that doesn't have free multiclassing) could become a Paladin of the Order of the Golden Lion, later in life but gives up their ability to progress as a monk, they should also inform the DM team that they are doing so alongside informing the team of the levels at the time of leaving that path so that there is no mix up with regards to if the character is legal or not later on if it's noticed. Hopefully that clears up your confusion on this topic. |
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Post by uriziel on Aug 9, 2019 11:33:20 GMT -5
To clarify something, as it seems odd to me per the books. In the FRCS, it says:  So it’s providing an exception to the rule found page 40 in the PHB. It also says it here:  In the PHB, it says this regarding multiclassing for both Pally and monk.   It’s clear that it’s allowed for people to take other classes according to the corre books, prior to taking either monk or paladin. So my question now is why was the decision made to limit these classes further than what the core rules state. This isn’t to say I think you can’t do it, you’re the dms, you obviously can. I just would like to know the reasoning, as it doesn’t seem to be jiving with my understanding of things and I like trying to understand why things are the way they are. |
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Post by Munroe on Aug 9, 2019 17:08:17 GMT -5
The decision was made to apply the same restriction to all of a monk or paladin's levels, including level 1.
This means that a character cannot start as another class and multiclass into paladin or monk unless the paladin or monk order would allow that class.
That's not actually more restrictive than the Core Rules (as the FR orders aren't part of the Core Rules, but part of the setting), it's differently restrictive, as we're still allowing exceptions for the orders. It's done to make restrictions have any kind of weight. If a class restriction allows for taking another class before and after taking the restricted class, that's not much of a restriction. At that point, it's just "take all your monk levels at once" or "take all your paladin levels at once," and there's no point to Order exceptions at all because everybody can just do that thing where they take all the restricted class levels at once, right in the middle of pursuing another class.
With the current restriction, the purity of the orders is maintained (only characters with allowed classes for the orders are in them) and leaving an order to pursue another class has actual weight, not "Oh, I was a paladin for awhile, but now I'm going back to being a wizard like I was before (now that I got my paladin abilities locked in and my +4 BAB).
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