Risk vs. Rewards

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

This thread could also be viewed as Resources vs. Rewards.

What I wished to discuss with the community is how people view the risk/rewards on FRC. This is not to push change on the server, nor insult the dm team.

We often discuss farming as an inappropriate and despicable behaior. Though often times, I find that perhaps it is necessary in order to make progress on FRC because some areas seem to be inbalanced towards the risk and rewards that one takes. Now I am not condoning farming in any way (and when i say farming I am referring to the definition located here frc.proboards37.com/index.cgi?board=roleplaydiscussion&action=display&thread=1139185966), but i do find myself visiting particular areas once/day (or once/time i am on). Does anyone else agree that in order to make progress, you need visit areas that arent necessarily easy for you, but you know they will provide appropriate rewards for the risk taken? And likewise, does anyone agree that some areas are unbalanced in terms of risks vs. rewards?

Now I will give two examples of situations i ran into recently (both had dms involved).

One was on a trip to a mildly easy area with two other characters. A dm started giving the ai a bit more intelligence and thus made the situation challenging. In the end, I think we broke even in terms of treasure (if not a little under) and got a slight xp bonus over what we normally gained.

The other situation was a trip i took yesterday to a very challenging area with two other characters. A dm once again gave the ai a bit more intelligence making the monsters EXTREMELY challenging. We had barely survived and only at the expense of a lot of resources. The reward was little to no treasure but there was a decent xp bonus.

Now I am not saying anything is wrong with the way the dms handled these situations, in fact it made them very fun and maybe the most difficult battle i have ever fought on frc (and I look forward to future interactions ). But what occurred to me is that in order to refill my stocks, I would not be able to adventure to challenging areas where the rewards are not so great until I had visited my usual stomping ground. Is this wrong, or how most people play?

[DM Justicar - Creator of FRC]

logandoug said:

so are you looking for like a hit list of areas that are basically money pits?

So someone could say:
The remenant orcs north of Arabel.
those guys are really tough fights, but a worthy fight, the xp is fair, and it is a place you can RP with friends to "watch out for Arabel" a few times, but there is hardly a coin dropped out there.


that the kind of thing you are looking for?

Yes.

[Booze Hound]

cool, well then...
As someone who played a character who rarely went into caves or crypts, because IC he had no reason to go in there, I can say that pretty much all of the outdoor areas are pretty skimpy on valuables. I understand that there shouldnt be as much wealth lying under bushes as there is in an ancient crypt, but in places where there are obvious holdouts, and monster territories...

The Frost Giants, and basically all of the Stormhorns are pretty difficult areas to travel through, and rightly so. But one trip through, and basically, you'd have to go find somewhere to go farm. Especially for those of us who do our damdest to keep from leaving spawns un- killed.

The Arabel orc areas, as I mentioned, and the giants near Castle Crag.

The Stonelands.

those three areas kinda stick out in my mind. If there was a better risk/reward ratio for people to wander around above ground, it could keep people from diving into all those silly crypts around redmist and such.

The area around and in the Marsh of Tun has a great risk/reward ratio.there is a damn good chance that you can die terribly in there, but through good playing, teamwork, etc. you can usually make a trip, and come out alright.

anyways, that's just my thoughts, I didnt want to drop a bunch of places that need work without one that is nicely proportioned. hope that helps some bud.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

foomanchu said:

I"ve played Risk a few times and it was awesome so my vote if for Risk...infact...i dont even know what this 'Rewards' thing is.... yeah it's tuff to get xp but that's not really what the server is about, it's about creating a healthy, fun, inviting community of people who share common interests and are looking for a more social gaming solution as apposed to the sterotypical gamers hardcore settings = necessity for parting up. though i must admit...being the only one on the server really sucks haha

I whole heartedly agree with you Foo, but clark is right. This isn't so much about xp and gold as it is about making areas enticing for people to expand their adventures to. My feeling when I started this thread is that there are so many great areas in FRC that people dont visit because there are some many other areas that reward much much better. Partying up does help with the number of resources consumed but as in my two examples above I was in group when going to these places.

Also I would add some drops perhaps by the cloud giants or the elementals in the clouds.

I was trying to think of a good mathematical equation for drops and risk. Assuming 3-4 people per group attacking monsters that are rated challenging for them, you could probably add drops based on the number of spawns in a screen. If i go on a challenging adventure (fighting 50 creatures rated challenging for me) with 3-4 people I think .5*CR/50*#ofCreatures*1000 would be a good rate of gold gain. Simplifying: 10*CR*#ofCreatures. Let's take a few examples:

4 level 20 characters take on 50 creatures of CR 20. Using the equation above the drops should produce: 10*20*50 = 10,000 gold. Divided four ways is 2.5K gold.

1 Level 1 fighting 50 creatures of CR 1.
10*1*50 = 500 gold.

So this could be applied in reverse. For example:

13 CR 1 spawns and 15 CR 2 spawns. 13*10*1+15*10*2 = 430 gold.

Of course, I am sure that this could use a bit of adjusting since CR is a terrible way to judge a creatures challenge. And to err on the side of caution, if spawns are based on the level of the player, it would be best to base gold gained on the lowest level spawns. Of course, I also dont know how the drops work so this entire suggestion could be moot.

[Manshin]

One good possibility is to use boss drops instead of steady drops throughout the dungeon. This is for a couple reasons. For one, it makes farming difficult because though you may be able to ninja loot, your probably not going to take the boss that way. Second reason is that it gives you something to strive for. Going into an area that is too difficult isnt supposed to produce rewards... its supposed to scare the crap out of you. I dont mind taking a loss on those occasional suicide missions. On the other hand, if I were to succeed, the treasure at the end would be HUGE for my level. My suggestion would be to leave or remove some of the treasure along the way.. you know, like the pile of stones, that sort of thing. Maybe have a mediocre treasure in the middle... like a party of dead adventuerers or a treasury room, but put the main prize at the end. That way if you want to reap the big rewards, you need a good party to go the distance.
Also, this way, if a skillful group manages to tackle enemies that are beyond them individually with good tactics and teamwork, then they stand to get well rewarded for their efforts. That fat treasure chest in the end will feel pretty damned good when you had to pass through hell to get it.

An example would be the Frost Giant Lair. If that place is meant to challenge level 18 characters, and a group of clever 13s or 14s manages to do it, they would be getting treasure balanced for a group of 18s! On the other hand, it probably cost them a fortune to get it, so it balances out in the end.

Most important thing with this idea is that the bossess match up to their minions. Some bosses, like the gnoll boss, are far too tough for dungeon they are in.

Manshin

[DM Justicar - Creator of FRC]

I like this discussion. If anyone really feels a boss is way too tough for an area as well, just mention it here. It may supposed to be like that for some reason, but if not I will do my best to fix it.

Also, boss drops will be a reality one of these days. I am still just trying to make a system work the way it should. I know what it is going to take, but it is a bit involved to do on a persistent world.

Also, due to the very random nature of our treasure system, some of these figures won't work out, but we will do our best. Sometimes the treasure you get in an area can vary widely, as it should.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

manshin said:

One good possibility is to use boss drops instead of steady drops throughout the dungeon. This is for a couple reasons. For one, it makes farming difficult because though you may be able to ninja loot, your probably not going to take the boss that way. Second reason is that it gives you something to strive for. Going into an area that is too difficult isnt supposed to produce rewards... its supposed to scare the crap out of you. I dont mind taking a loss on those occasional suicide missions. On the other hand, if I were to succeed, the treasure at the end would be HUGE for my level. My suggestion would be to leave or remove some of the treasure along the way.. you know, like the pile of stones, that sort of thing. Maybe have a mediocre treasure in the middle... like a party of dead adventuerers or a treasury room, but put the main prize at the end. That way if you want to reap the big rewards, you need a good party to go the distance.
Also, this way, if a skillful group manages to tackle enemies that are beyond them individually with good tactics and teamwork, then they stand to get well rewarded for their efforts. That fat treasure chest in the end will feel pretty damned good when you had to pass through hell to get it.

An example would be the Frost Giant Lair. If that place is meant to challenge level 18 characters, and a group of clever 13s or 14s manages to do it, they would be getting treasure balanced for a group of 18s! On the other hand, it probably cost them a fortune to get it, so it balances out in the end.

Most important thing with this idea is that the bossess match up to their minions. Some bosses, like the gnoll boss, are far too tough for dungeon they are in.

Manshin

I do agree with Manshin here as well that end of adventure treasure should be the majority of the treasure. I guess my reference to drops in an area was more for open settings like the stonelands, or walking around in the stormhorns, when there is no end boss, just aimless wandering.

My one qualm with switching the majority of the treasure to boss drops would be the time to get to that boss. As it is, a lot of the bosses take a considerable amount of time to get to. And if you are a person like me who plays around 2 hours a day (except on the weekends) then reaching that boss becomes a time crunch. I would say most adventures such as this can be completed in about 2 hours ... but i am derailing my own thread a bit.

So yeah, I like the boss drops idea!

As for bossess that are a bit difficult for their area. My feeling is scorpion clan master may be too difficult for his area, i mean he is a challenge for me (rated impossible), but the rest of the area is not so challenging (rated easy for me) (unless a dm takes over ). So I would say tone him down and maybe the end treasure, otherwise you'll have yahoos like me running through there farming.

Dont know if the white slaad is a boss, but he is pretty damn tough.

The one orc boss that spawns in the orc camp north of arabel is way off his rocker hard for the amount of resources need to spend on him.

Other Bosses I can think of and review of challenge is based on my opinion alone:
Frost Giant Empress - fine
White Dragon - dont know
Green Dragon - dont know
Waymoot Orc and Troll - fine
Black Dragon (or i've heard rumor of) - dont know

[Booze Hound]

yea like Quad said, having place liek the Stormhorns, or the King's Forest, or North of Arabel have just a bit more loot would possibly encourage people to get away from the redmist/isinhold areas.

I know there are a few of us that really like to just wander the server and see all the great outside areas that there are. It's just hard to make a buck that way

[gathera]

The end room in the lost temple in the Dragon Isles is like that. There are remains along the way through the maze but the end room has several chests. It also has two rather impressive looking guardians and well discretion is the better part of valour. So I can not say exactly what is there or how difficult it may be. It is along the model that you are talking about. As for North of Aerbel orcs, frost giants and such the rest of us mere mortals leave them alone (well me anyway).

[DM Grizwald]

Storm giant empress = well getting there i find is ALOT tougher and takes a while, could throw a nice chest here or there along the way

Frost giant king = could have the same thing for this one too...a nice chest along the way to getting there

White dragon = good risk vs reward, though i think its difficulty could get cranked up a bit

Green dragon = good risk vs reward

Waymoot orcs/trolls = good

Banite keep = decent

Arabel Orc ecampment= could crank up the rewards there a bit

Stoneland tower = dont know

Necropolis = good

(just to add to quads list)

[Kolfrosta]

The outdoor areas between Eveningstar and Dhedluk, while nicely filled with orcs, could have a few loot drops...I didn't notice many (if any) when my midlevels made that trip....also...continuing on from Dhedluk to Waymoot, the areas could use some encounters and loot drops.

[soulfien]

bah. one thing I've always disliked about playing a druid (and this is what eventually drove me away from my once favorite class entirely) was that the majority of players hate non-populated outdoors areas. No matter how many hundreds of areas you have that are bursting with evil spawns- they'll complain about that one forest that lay empty. No place for a druid to be at home with nature, I guess.

I don't know if this has been fixed yet- I'll check it out today to see, but kobold cave suth of isinhold is WAY too rich in treasure. I can walk through the kobold cave all the way through the well and wind up with more gold than I get for soloing the redmist crypts or even the dark tower in the Mistwood. Need to keep the high level pc's out of there by toning down the loot Especially that one treasure bag next to the chest that resides in the chieftain's locked room. I've gotten some lvl 9 scrolls and even some handy magic items that I've sold for up to 2,700.

Orcs east of Isinhold. There are almost no treasure spawns- only a couple chests in the torture area after you kill the boss. There sould be a few spawns scattered through the cave as the orcs themselves very rarely drop anything.

[DM Grizwald]

kolfrosta said:

The outdoor areas between Eveningstar and Dhedluk, while nicely filled with orcs, could have a few loot drops...I didn't notice many (if any) when my midlevels made that trip....also...continuing on from Dhedluk to Waymoot, the areas could use some encounters and loot drops.

There are encounters on the way to Waymoot from Dhedluk, you just have to get off the road. I am also one to not have spawns every turn on the road for a few reasons:

1. Its sometimes nice to be able to sit somewhere outside of a city and rp...just like having a picnic or something in the forest or whatnot.

2. its also nice to get a breather every once in a while.

[DM Justicar - Creator of FRC]

I should be able to start getting to some of these tonight. If you see your post deleted that means I did something regarding that.

If you still feel something is needed after I delete your post, please just repost and I will see what can be done, or comment as to why something isn't being done.

[Talus]

clarkgrizwald said:

kolfrosta said:

The outdoor areas between Eveningstar and Dhedluk, while nicely filled with orcs, could have a few loot drops...I didn't notice many (if any) when my midlevels made that trip....also...continuing on from Dhedluk to Waymoot, the areas could use some encounters and loot drops.

There are encounters on the way to Waymoot from Dhedluk, you just have to get off the road. I am also one to not have spawns every turn on the road for a few reasons:

1. Its sometimes nice to be able to sit somewhere outside of a city and rp...just like having a picnic or something in the forest or whatnot.

2. its also nice to get a breather every once in a while.

Man I must go the wrong or right way depending on your point of view. Because I know of some forest areas that have maybe one encounter in them, at least large parts of it that are clear. *shrugs* Or perhaps I just get lucky or don't notice. I do know of one area, somewhat hidden that is ideal for you nature lovers that want to sit in a woodland setting. So they are out there.

Oh, just thought of another also somewhat hidden.

[DM Justicar - Creator of FRC]

I have made alot of changes that will soon take effect. I think you will find the outdoor areas much more rewarding to navigate. There are still some areas that need work, and they are mostly identified; if you feel more work is needed on a particular area, please go ahead and post here. If your post has been deleted that means I specifically addressed the area, or areas in question.

Cheers!