malleus
Old School
The first breath is the beginning of death.
Posts: 450
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Post by malleus on May 8, 2019 7:18:18 GMT -5
I know this has been taken up multiple times but here we go again š
Playing my monk Zyraxas the last months I have, do to some game mechanics and do to some IG reasons put everyone on the server to hostile.
The result is always the same, that a flood of tells head my way, most of them are kind or funny and I do enjoy them.
āBUTā then comes the hostile tells people telling me that I better think twice before they report me to a DM for harassment, or that they donāt want me to hostile them or have anything to do with my toon from now on or start asking me what my reasons IC and OOC are for the hostile.
Some even gives me a long rant about why they or others have left this server before or left other servers do to pvp.
I always tell people the same thing, that being turned to hostile is purely ooc information and they should not act on it IC or OOC.
That mostly just pisses people off so now I will bring it up on the forums again.
My kind request is that if someone puts you on hostile please ignore it and assume that people have a IC reason to do it, or that some game mechanics has forced them to do it.
I have personally only done friendship pvp with 1 man for the last few years on this server but let me remind you that you are playing on a RP and Pvp friendly server, and people normally donāt jump out of the shadows and murder you unless there is a RP reason to do so, so just relax yourself.
Kind regards *someone also playing the game to have fun*
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Post by lucid on May 8, 2019 8:28:51 GMT -5
You should team up with a potion merchant. Hostile everyone, they quaff potions, your buddy sells them some more.
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on May 8, 2019 10:12:31 GMT -5
Good to know. Thanks for info. But, in any case, I will not take the risk to join the group where somebody is hostile to me. Also, I will not take risk to stay near hostile character. I'm tolerance, but not stupid. So, I will not attack you if you are hostile, but stay far away please what you just said is meta gaming. How you are still here is beyond me.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2019 10:40:34 GMT -5
Its an issue for sure that people take their chars really personally. As if its personal attack to themselves. Even though this is just a game. I would welcome more pvp specially ones that arent resulting to death situations. That demands dedication for both parties to not rush things which is a lot at times. One of my friends told me that in one server they actually typed most of the fights they did, instead of relying on fast paced game mechanics. Giving them time to use environments etc more in the pvp/rp sense. I havent seen this in action but sounds like something to concider and try atleast. Would love to see more sneaking rp going on but I do understand that rogues/other hiders do get frustrated when people metagame to spot/hear them. To my point of view, i would love to reward sneakers a bit more info if I ooc knew someone was following the char. But thats just me. I think most of us should start thinking less about our chars welfare and more how to make interesting stories, co working with good-bad axis to make intriguing stories. And specially throw the attitude of I must be always be winning. Rather win and lose small battles so that rivalries can be created etc. Humiliation, getting revealed some information that wouldnt normally pop out from regualar "hi hows your day" rp usually demands that you are willing to lose. Hopefully this message wasnt too confusing, been rough day and its a big issue altogheter.
-Timo
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Post by Southpaw on May 8, 2019 15:22:46 GMT -5
My biggest concern when I donāt know why Iāve been set to ādislikeā is that I donāt want to be unready OOC by being afk, or distracted somehow as a player with something outside the game, or on another screen. I donāt have a need to know anything IC, I just donāt want to go for a soda and come back to a respawn screen. As a player who will generally warn people in a tell if Iām about to attack them that now is not the time to go afk if Iām the one mounting a surprise attack, I feel if Iām willing to volunteer that info when itās me, itās fair to at least ask, and no one has ever objected to my asking.
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malleus
Old School
The first breath is the beginning of death.
Posts: 450
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Post by malleus on May 8, 2019 16:09:21 GMT -5
My biggest concern when I donāt know why Iāve been set to ādislikeā is that I donāt want to be unready OOC by being afk, or distracted somehow as a player with something outside the game, or on another screen. I donāt have a need to know anything IC, I just donāt want to go for a soda and come back to a respawn screen. As a player who will generally warn people in a tell if Iām about to attack them that now is not the time to go afk if Iām the one mounting a surprise attack, I feel if Iām willing to volunteer that info when itās me, itās fair to at least ask, and no one has ever objected to my asking. I see your point. My point is that when people hostile you it doesn't always mean that you are about to get attacked, there could very well be some other reason to it then pvp. but Pvp without RP is not allowed so I donāt think it will be a problem.
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malleus
Old School
The first breath is the beginning of death.
Posts: 450
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Post by malleus on May 8, 2019 16:14:59 GMT -5
Good to know. Thanks for info. But, in any case, I will not take the risk to join the group where somebody is hostile to me. Also, I will not take risk to stay near hostile character. I'm tolerance, but not stupid. So, I will not attack you if you are hostile, but stay far away please This really proves why I made the post to begin with. Your character would have no in game reason to react to me using an ooc game mechanic and setting you to hostile. If my character has not been hostile towards you IC through RP then you should not react to it at all. Asking people to stay away from you would indeed be metagaming.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2019 16:42:59 GMT -5
If you set me to hostile, I will get you
j/k but I do respond to stuff with an ooc emote tho.
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Post by Always_a_hero on May 8, 2019 17:12:02 GMT -5
I'd think the greatest fear for someone getting hostiled is not seeing the hostile figure on the screen... It think what Sergeil is saying is how actually seeing someone hostile often leads to the question of "do I clearly feel IC the hostility from that other character".
But staying with the sneaky theme, again, what most people seem to fear is getting 2 tapped to death by sneaks, which again is unjustifiable to a certain point without proper RP. To me, the only other proper reason for hostility for a stealthy character would be pick-pocketing. No, I've actually had experience with busting someone pick-pocketing my char without hostility and that for sure I wasn't happy with it(especially since it was a war horse #HorsePocketed). Nonetheless, for a high stealth character setting someone hostile, discretion for the purpose will surely depends of the situation, even though telling someone you're about to pick-pocket your intention might ruin the experience to some.
As for the case of global hostility, I'd suggest making an actual command for it in the style "!hostileall" and it would show in everyone's log "[...] is now hostile to everyone"... Just a thought out there. Might clear the suspicions of some when the time arrives.
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Post by Southpaw on May 8, 2019 18:14:51 GMT -5
My biggest concern when I donāt know why Iāve been set to ādislikeā is that I donāt want to be unready OOC by being afk, or distracted somehow as a player with something outside the game, or on another screen. I donāt have a need to know anything IC, I just donāt want to go for a soda and come back to a respawn screen. As a player who will generally warn people in a tell if Iām about to attack them that now is not the time to go afk if Iām the one mounting a surprise attack, I feel if Iām willing to volunteer that info when itās me, itās fair to at least ask, and no one has ever objected to my asking. I see your point. My point is that when people hostile you it doesn't always mean that you are about to get attacked, there could very well be some other reason to it then pvp. but Pvp without RP is not allowed so I donāt think it will be a problem. Okay, I see what youāre getting at, too. If someone is sending you nasty tells for setting to ādislike,ā without even attacking or even hostile RP, then I donāt think you have anything to explain. I feel that if thatās all youāve done, then responsibility falls on them to keep control of their response. If someone actually made an attack that a player thought was inconsiderate, that at least would be something one could discuss, but just setting to ādislikeā hardly even constitutes doing anything, and in character, * doesnāt* even constitute an action. Iād honestly not want you to feel unsupported in your position on that when you have done literally nothing in character towards those other players.
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Post by StabbingNirvana on May 8, 2019 18:34:18 GMT -5
You should try toggling hostile and attacking people 2 seconds later. Then do a compare and contrast of which private messages are worse.
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on May 9, 2019 1:44:42 GMT -5
I wasn't happy with it(especially since it was a war horse #HorsePocketed). Stealing of horse is dead sin. Character, who did it, have to be killed immediately. If somebody want money, let begging it. There are a lot of good people who can help and give few spare (100+) coins without any issue. Also, 1. Rules allow to donate 500 golds for low level character by RP reason. I did not found any limitations for donations to the same level. It means, you can give to someone all your money without issue if you want it. It can be very useful in stable team to order new equipment for one of team members. 2. stealing more as 500 golds is prohibited by rules. Cost of war horse with equipment is 13500 gold. Suggest: Donation to beggars or temple can be motivated by shifting character alignment in some direction. As example, donation for beggar to good/nothing, donation to temple - according to alignment of deity. In fact, last realization of alignment evolution was not very good. But this way can help evolute character's alignment without risk for all other. Your point 1 is twinking by any definition. Don't go giving an unreasonable amount of gold to characters, be they low level, the same, or higher than you. Any regular gifts of a 'particular limit' is the same.
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on May 9, 2019 2:29:03 GMT -5
Your point 1 is twinking by any definition. Don't go giving an unreasonable amount of gold to characters, be they low level, the same, or higher than you. Any regular gifts of a 'particular limit' is the same. Thanks for answer. In fact, it was very important point. Of course, I will re-read rules more pedantic, because I did not found this point there. But if you say, I believe it is true. And if even this point is missed in rules, it will be added soon. PS: Is there exception for families? May I donate my adopted on FRC daughter? There are no exceptions that I am aware of. Combine the above quote with rule #2, 'Use Common Sense.' If things cannot be shared between your characters, they cannot be so freely shared between players. Help is allowed within very small and reasonable amounts; I doubt the staff wants to give specific numbers to prevent an 'allowed level of cheese.'
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Post by nemusator on May 9, 2019 2:52:18 GMT -5
Rules are rules, always the same for everyone, carved in stone, not to be bent or adjusted by a player.
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on May 9, 2019 7:28:15 GMT -5
In fact, great RP and gameplay in general is very complicated combo. Our characters are dolls. They do not have their own brain, they own emotions, etc. Why some characters are more successful as another with the same class, level, equipment? My insight hint me to do some and avoid something. And it tell me to avoid friends or teammaters, who are hostile to me. Of course, I can suppress the voice of my intuition, but, in most cases, after I'm forced to pay big price for my stupid after. From where I know that someone is hostile? I feel it (insight). š so you metagame n admit it? And your still allowed as a player? Wow.
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Post by Southpaw on May 9, 2019 8:51:19 GMT -5
I think Sergei is talking about "hostile" in the every day, normal conversational usage of the word, "acting unfriendly," which in this context would mean "acting unfriendly through in character role play." I could be wrong, but that's what I'm taking from his comments.
For Sergei's benefit, when we are talking about "hostile" in this discussion, we're talking about someone who has pressed the "dislike" button on the player's list, so their name turns red on your screen and you can fight now. If they haven't done anything through role play that your character would see as unfriendly role play, then you would be metagaming to avoid them just because they pressed the "dislike" button. But if their role play is unfriendly, and you avoid them for that, that's okay.
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Post by dwarvenkoff on May 9, 2019 12:29:03 GMT -5
My one concren when I sent you a tell was because I was set to hostile when I was about to log off, this could be seen as using an OOC log off to avoid a PVP scenario so I did send you a tell asking if it was about to happen or if I could go ahead and log off for the night. You responded promptly and it was all sorted out in a calm manner, I'm very sorry to hear you are getting the flood of tells which contain threats but know that because these steps get taken before PVP happen we usually have no way of telling if it's you making sure your "mechanic" works correctly or if you are about to highway robbery us. Unfortuantly I think the tells are just gonna have to be something you suffer through and our part sending tells or using this knowledge of setting people to hostile and just ignoring people IC is a far worse crime. Just my two bits on the topic, it's an odd scenario but you do handle it very professionally so you have my appreciation for that.
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Post by Munroe on May 9, 2019 16:25:41 GMT -5
Curse Song will affect anyone toggled hostile (aka set to "dislike") to the bard. So if you don't want to attack them, don't use your curse song ability. To do so would be an attack. Likewise, the Taunt ability is an attack (regardless of Like/Dislike status). You cannot use the Taunt ability on someone then claim they attacked you first. If you target them with the Taunt ability, you have attacked first because you have used a mechanical ability that generates an auto-attack by the game engine.
Toggling hostile in itself is not a hostile action on FRC. It is required for some mechanical effects, such as the Sanctuary spells. It should be ignored.
Unless a character is actively threatening your character through roleplay or by attacking, you should behave around them as you would normally. Of course if you always consider them hostile in your roleplay, it's appropriate to continue to consider them hostile. But that doesn't have anything to do with be setting being toggled to "dislike."
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Post by travis14 on May 10, 2019 7:28:14 GMT -5
Bard song will affect all allies, not enemies. (Hostile players are considered āenemiesā in this respect and thus unaffected).
Curse song will ONLY affect enemies (Same as above: Hostile players are considered āenemiesā in this respect and thus affected).
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Post by lucid on May 10, 2019 9:22:48 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure if you Dislike someone in your party you will fall out of party, and if you join a party with someone you Disliked, it will set you friendly again. So your question is about a situation that will never arise. You cannot have "hostile teammates".
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Post by Thrym on May 10, 2019 13:11:50 GMT -5
The whole curse-song thing does kinda raise another issue though - the game does not let you not target certain enemies with enemies only spells, which makes the whole 'do not metagame' thing more complicated. Say Alice hostiles everyone for whatever reason and while not actually attacking is near another PC, let's call him Bob. Now Bob gets into a fight, be it with an NPC or PC. If Bob uses any 'enemies only' spell or ability, like curse song or firebrand, he'll automatically also target Alice, despite having no reason to ICly. So... he basically has to reverse-meta-game to not use his abilities at this time. Doesn't even have to be a fight. Maybe Bob is a cleric that just came from the dungeon, didn't see it during a fight that Alice hostiled him and casts prayer to buff his appraise before talking to a merchant, hitting her with a big doom animation and all. Knowing NWN Multiplayer, I predict a 90% chance of an hour long OOC arguement about wether Bob attacked Alice and is a metagamer to follow. Heck, maybe Bob just runs by Alice for some reason and triggers an AoO.
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Post by FlyingMidget on May 10, 2019 15:37:20 GMT -5
Aren't the only two non-hostile abilities that benefits from somebody being hostile to you the short duration & low DC Sanctuary & the insanely short duration Greater Sanctuary (a level 20's Greater Sanctuary is only 30 seconds of duration).
Hostiling people randomly has other issues as well, as Thrym has stated, Area of Effect Spells and Abilities will target you even when they don't intend to, Summons will go after you even when they aren't meant to, it can cause issues with people resting even if they can't see you, Attacks of Opportunity if they pass near you, miss-clicks happen as well, Range Attacks auto target nearest hostile when previous target died/vanished/left range. Many of these things might come up just as you enter someones perception range as well or thy may not have noticed you approach combat (focusing on the combat itself, or maybe you were invisible/stealthed)
People really shouldn't be hostiling without a very good reason and should be accepting that if any of the above happens to them (including AoE spells, Summons, Miss Clicks, AoO and Archers auto targeting them) that's the fault of the individual that choose to hostile and not an IC action from the other character.
FM.
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malleus
Old School
The first breath is the beginning of death.
Posts: 450
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Post by malleus on May 10, 2019 17:24:35 GMT -5
Aren't the only two non-hostile abilities that benefits from somebody being hostile to you the short duration & low DC Sanctuary & the insanely short duration Greater Sanctuary (a level 20's Greater Sanctuary is only 30 seconds of duration). Hostiling people randomly has other issues as well, as Thrym has stated, Area of Effect Spells and Abilities will target you even when they don't intend to, Summons will go after you even when they aren't meant to, it can cause issues with people resting even if they can't see you, Attacks of Opportunity if they pass near you, miss-clicks happen as well, Range Attacks auto target nearest hostile when previous target died/vanished/left range. Many of these things might come up just as you enter someones perception range as well or thy may not have noticed you approach combat (focusing on the combat itself, or maybe you were invisible/stealthed) People really shouldn't be hostiling without a very good reason and should be accepting that if any of the above happens to them (including AoE spells, Summons, Miss Clicks, AoO and Archers auto targeting them) that's the fault of the individual that choose to hostile and not an IC action from the other character. FM. And that is the point isnāt it, if I put people on hostile I likely have a reason to do it, mechanic or IC wise. Hence there should be no OOC hate tells or IC reactions to it..
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Post by FlyingMidget on May 10, 2019 18:16:38 GMT -5
Aren't the only two non-hostile abilities that benefits from somebody being hostile to you the short duration & low DC Sanctuary & the insanely short duration Greater Sanctuary (a level 20's Greater Sanctuary is only 30 seconds of duration). Hostiling people randomly has other issues as well, as Thrym has stated, Area of Effect Spells and Abilities will target you even when they don't intend to, Summons will go after you even when they aren't meant to, it can cause issues with people resting even if they can't see you, Attacks of Opportunity if they pass near you, miss-clicks happen as well, Range Attacks auto target nearest hostile when previous target died/vanished/left range. Many of these things might come up just as you enter someones perception range as well or thy may not have noticed you approach combat (focusing on the combat itself, or maybe you were invisible/stealthed) People really shouldn't be hostiling without a very good reason and should be accepting that if any of the above happens to them (including AoE spells, Summons, Miss Clicks, AoO and Archers auto targeting them) that's the fault of the individual that choose to hostile and not an IC action from the other character. FM. And that is the point isnāt it, if I put people on hostile I likely have a reason to do it, mechanic or IC wise. Hence there should be no OOC hate tells or IC reactions to it.. Nobody should be sending you threatening OOC tells or preemptively reacting to hostile and you should likely ask a DM or PA to help mediate the situation if that's a real thing happening between you and another player (though it may just be a misunderstanding caused by a lack of role play that they've seen to warrant hostile or just used to more open communication), but I see asking about it as fine if no obvious RP has happened between your character and theirs in the vicinity because it may have been an accidental hostile and you are inconveniencing them by forcing mechanics (the aforementioned issues with auto attacks, AoO's, Summons, AoE spells & abilities etc, etc.) on them that they may not wish unless PvP was likely outcome in the next few minutes.
That said the part of your statement I disagree with is having an IC reason to do such, you either have a legitimate OOC reason to do such or you do not, it's a completely OOC mechanic, not an IC one. The legitimate reasons to do so as I see them are as follows. (not counting messing around with friends as a joke, I know some spam hostile on friends like that, but that's an OOC thing between two friends)
PvP is a high possibility between you and the other party within the next few minutes and you're doing it to prepare while Roleplay is happening or about to happen.
You're hostiling the few people you're trying to avoid with Sanctuary / Greater Sanctuary (these need only be the people you absolute don't want to see you for those very short moments rather then the entire server completely unrelated).
If you want your hostile spells/summons/abilities to actively target someone, role play needs to happen before hand, so there's no reason to really hostile until role play has started that may lead to PvP (preemptively hostile them while role playing) or role play already happened that warrants PvP (though keep it reasonable the length of time since said RP happened, nobody wants to be killed days, weeks, months, years later seemingly randomly).
FM.
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Post by Dimitri on May 10, 2019 18:44:34 GMT -5
If you think someone is a thief, Hostiling them will give you an extra 10 on the DC they need to pickpocket you.
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malleus
Old School
The first breath is the beginning of death.
Posts: 450
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Post by malleus on May 11, 2019 1:05:22 GMT -5
And that is the point isnāt it, if I put people on hostile I likely have a reason to do it, mechanic or IC wise. Hence there should be no OOC hate tells or IC reactions to it.. Nobody should be sending you threatening OOC tells or preemptively reacting to hostile and you should likely ask a DM or PA to help mediate the situation if that's a real thing happening between you and another player (though it may just be a misunderstanding caused by a lack of role play that they've seen to warrant hostile or just used to more open communication), but I see asking about it as fine if no obvious RP has happened between your character and theirs in the vicinity because it may have been an accidental hostile and you are inconveniencing them by forcing mechanics (the aforementioned issues with auto attacks, AoO's, Summons, AoE spells & abilities etc, etc.) on them that they may not wish unless PvP was likely outcome in the next few minutes. That said the part of your statement I disagree with is having an IC reason to do such, you either have a legitimate OOC reason to do such or you do not, it's a completely OOC mechanic, not an IC one. The legitimate reasons to do so as I see them are as follows. (not counting messing around with friends as a joke, I know some spam hostile on friends like that, but that's an OOC thing between two friends)
PvP is a high possibility between you and the other party within the next few minutes and you're doing it to prepare while Roleplay is happening or about to happen.
You're hostiling the few people you're trying to avoid with Sanctuary / Greater Sanctuary (these need only be the people you absolute don't want to see you for those very short moments rather then the entire server completely unrelated). If you want your hostile spells/summons/abilities to actively target someone, role play needs to happen before hand, so there's no reason to really hostile until role play has started that may lead to PvP (preemptively hostile them while role playing) or role play already happened that warrants PvP (though keep it reasonable the length of time since said RP happened, nobody wants to be killed days, weeks, months, years later seemingly randomly).
FM. And this is 100 % why I made the post to start with.. Right now, you are trying to be the judge of what I am doing is right or wrong or if I have legitimate reason to put you on dislike be course you think you know all the ooc mechanics in game or be course you think you know my IC reason or lack of it. I have ether a ooc mechanic or an IC reason /or both to do what I do and reacting to it with hostile tells or making your character react to it in game Is just wrong and thatās why I made the post, I donāt have to send you a tell with a long explanation of why I am doing what I am, nor will I ruin an in game plot by telling you here in the forum what was going on in game that made me put people on dislike. So, accept the fact that things are going on in the game that you donāt need to know, and that may involve you being put on dislike. and if you think i am doing something that is against FRC rules, take it up with the DM team i am sure they would look in to it for youā¦.. I may come of a bit harsh in this replay but itās the only way for me to try and make people understand that dislike button in FRC is an OOC thing and you should not, In no way, under no circumstance react negatively toward the person, doing it.
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Post by oldfog on May 11, 2019 1:16:53 GMT -5
I think the main problem is that no one knows your intentions, and it triggers an confusion about your character suddenly being hostile. If that would happen to me, I would feel threatened, OOC or not, and I want to make sure that your intentions are "valid". There are and have been some "PVP-Happy" people that attack people for no reason at all - and I would like to make sure you are not one of those that just runs out from a bush and whack my character down. It is an OOC mechanic, but we don't want to die by mistake either. People randomly turning hostile against you is not the norm. Anything that breaks the norm naturally causes confusion.
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malleus
Old School
The first breath is the beginning of death.
Posts: 450
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Post by malleus on May 11, 2019 2:10:24 GMT -5
As I said in the OP some people do ask kindly and make a joke tell and stuff like that, I do not mind that at all and I always answer them back that there is nothing to worry about as I am not about to jump them or anything. However, if I was going to pvp someone I may put them on dislike first but would 100 % do the needed RP before doing an attack 1. So, I donāt attack an AFK player 2. So, the person has a chance to interact with me. 3. And the other person gets to have some fun also.
I have or had no intention to jump anyone. I was in the middle of a plot where it made sense to do a certain thing and that was done easiest if I had people on dislike.
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Post by Southpaw on May 11, 2019 7:18:48 GMT -5
In my experience, if someone acts badly to me for doing things that are totally within my rights, and I explain how the bad treatment is not deserved instead of treating it like a breaking of rules and seeking discipline, it can give the other person the idea that they have the right to break rules to me until I explain my actions enough to satisfy them. This makes them the one who behaved badly and me the one who is defending myself. This is why, if Iām in a position like having nasty tells sent for setting ādislike,ā I just refer it to the DMās, so the other player does not feel their actions are legitimized by my explaining myself. If someone is simply confused why I did something, I have no problem explaining. But if they need a reason to follow rules about their own behavior, they can have that conversation with the relevant authorities.
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malleus
Old School
The first breath is the beginning of death.
Posts: 450
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Post by malleus on May 11, 2019 9:05:21 GMT -5
In my experience, if someone acts badly to me for doing things that are totally within my rights, and I explain how the bad treatment is not deserved instead of treating it like a breaking of rules and seeking discipline, it can give the other person the idea that they have the right to break rules to me until I explain my actions enough to satisfy them. This makes them the one who behaved badly and me the one who is defending myself. This is why, if Iām in a position like having nasty tells sent for setting ādislike,ā I just refer it to the DMās, so the other player does not feel their actions are legitimized by my explaining myself. If someone is simply confused why I did something, I have no problem explaining. But if they need a reason to follow rules about their own behavior, they can have that conversation with the relevant authorities. Well personally when people send me hate tells I just explain them nice and easy that I am not about to jump them, and the dislike is to be ignored as an OOC thing. That works on 90 % of the people here, the rest are argument resistant.
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