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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2017 23:52:40 GMT -5
Hello,
The subject title is a misdirection. I want to know how, as a player, investing in NwN and using FRC as a conduit of my gameplay ... how do I get alignment shifts and points?
I just bought this game about 1 month ago and I had heard of FRC from some forum-or-another out there, and I noticed my alignment axis can be increased or decreased
How do I increase or decrease either axis? Is there some source or context or known-expected-value for me to follow so I don't accidentally goof?
What is FRC's cited expected values of Good, Evil, Law, Chaos?
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Post by Munroe on Jun 25, 2017 0:15:23 GMT -5
Hello, The subject title is a misdirection. I want to know how, as a player, investing in NwN and using FRC as a conduit of my gameplay ... how do I get alignment shifts and points? I just bought this game about 1 month ago and I had heard of FRC from some forum-or-another out there, and I noticed my alignment axis can be increased or decreased How do I increase or decrease either axis? Is there some source or context or known-expected-value for me to follow so I don't accidentally goof? What is FRC's cited expected values of Good, Evil, Law, Chaos? I kind of get the impression you're trolling at this point, Warlord. What defines Good and Evil in the setting is objective, while DM interpretation is, by human nature, subjective. There are many posts on the forums about Good and Evil, as they relate to the objective morality of the Forgotten Realms and D&D source material. I believe you have posted some of these yourself. I would encourage anyone interested in the nature of Good and Evil in the setting (and Law and Chaos in the setting) to look at posts related to the topic in the Lore of the Lands sub-forum. The topic is far too in-depth to be handled in one DM Q&A. To get alignment shifts, the easiest way to do so is to contact a DM and let them know that you would like to pursue alignment shifts for your character, indicating which way you would like your character's alignment to shift. The DM then posts in a DM-only sub-forum indicating your desired shifts and creating a thread for DMs to track actions that might be worthy of shifts. We also note any shifts awarded in the threads in that forum, and why they were awarded. Most alignment shifting on FRC is handled by players requesting that their alignment be monitored, but not all alignment shifts are handled this way. At times, DMs may shift a character's alignment based on circumstances they observed that they felt warranted an alignment shift regardless of the player's desire to shift toward or away from that alignment. These shifts are less common because they are often ill-received. We do make them on occasion though when a character's specified alignment on the sheet and behavioral alignment in practice are vastly incongruous. Characters whose alignments are significant to the character are more likely to experience involuntary shifts in this manner, including paladins, druids, and clergy. This is because these classes have alignment restrictions that are meant to be an indicator of behavior. When the character behavior doesn't match the class's alignment restrictions, corrections are being made. Most of the time these are subtle nudges to encourage a player to consider better the consequences of their character's actions. Rarely, and most often in the case of paladins, these shifts can be severe enough to change the class functionality and future of the character because the character has deviated so severely from the required alignment as to lose class features. I doubt this will satisfy you, since I think you're kind of just asking questions to ask questions, but perhaps it helps someone. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 0:26:38 GMT -5
Hello, The subject title is a misdirection. I want to know how, as a player, investing in NwN and using FRC as a conduit of my gameplay ... how do I get alignment shifts and points? I just bought this game about 1 month ago and I had heard of FRC from some forum-or-another out there, and I noticed my alignment axis can be increased or decreased How do I increase or decrease either axis? Is there some source or context or known-expected-value for me to follow so I don't accidentally goof? What is FRC's cited expected values of Good, Evil, Law, Chaos? I kind of get the impression you're trolling at this point, Warlord . What defines Good and Evil in the setting is objective, while DM interpretation is, by human nature, subjective. There are many posts on the forums about Good and Evil, as they relate to the objective morality of the Forgotten Realms and D&D source material. I believe you have posted some of these yourself. I would encourage anyone interested in the nature of Good and Evil in the setting (and Law and Chaos in the setting) to look at posts related to the topic in the Lore of the Lands sub-forum. The topic is far too in-depth to be handled in one DM Q&A. To get alignment shifts, the easiest way to do so is to contact a DM and let them know that you would like to pursue alignment shifts for your character, indicating which way you would like your character's alignment to shift. The DM then posts in a DM-only sub-forum indicating your desired shifts and creating a thread for DMs to track actions that might be worthy of shifts. We also note any shifts awarded in the threads in that forum, and why they were awarded. Most alignment shifting on FRC is handled by players requesting that their alignment be monitored, but not all alignment shifts are handled this way. At times, DMs may shift a character's alignment based on circumstances they observed that they felt warranted an alignment shift regardless of the player's desire to shift toward or away from that alignment. These shifts are less common because they are often ill-received. We do make them on occasion though when a character's specified alignment on the sheet and behavioral alignment in practice are vastly incongruous. Characters whose alignments are significant to the character are more likely to experience involuntary shifts in this manner, including paladins, druids, and clergy. This is because these classes have alignment restrictions that are meant to be an indicator of behavior. When the character behavior doesn't match the class's alignment restrictions, corrections are being made. Most of the time these are subtle nudges to encourage a player to consider better the consequences of their character's actions. Rarely, and most often in the case of paladins, these shifts can be severe enough to change the class functionality and future of the character because the character has deviated so severely from the required alignment as to lose class features. I doubt this will satisfy you, since I think you're kind of just asking questions to ask questions, but perhaps it helps someone. Thanks Munroe. You're right of course: me trolling on the pretense that the title of the subject doesn't match the context of the material, and I can change this if you want. "We do make them on occasion though when a character's specified alignment on the sheet and behavioral alignment in practice are vastly incongruous" What's that quantitative value of incongruousness? So that my Chaotic PC can avoid being shifted to Neutral, or Lawful? Vague expression is grand but the reality is some of us do make an Axis-focused PC and we want to be sure we follow the community and their concise step the right way. I get it man. Believe me I know the setting, but it isn't about me ... it's covering a basis here. |
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Post by Munroe on Jun 25, 2017 1:11:30 GMT -5
Thanks Munroe. You're right of course: me trolling on the pretense that the title of the subject doesn't match the context of the material, and I can change this if you want. No, I mean your flood of DM Q&As, particularly the last few about abstract concepts that are better studied than answered directly. I don't mind the subject. It asks a specific question to lead to a general one, but that's fine. It's not clear as far as DM Q&A subjects do, but it is what it is, and if I don't like it, I'll change it. (I renamed a whole bunch of the DM Q&A threads at one point, when you used to be able to sort the forum by thread name, so they could be sorted by related topics.) "We do make them on occasion though when a character's specified alignment on the sheet and behavioral alignment in practice are vastly incongruous" What's that quantitative value of incongruousness? So that my Chaotic PC can avoid being shifted to Neutral, or Lawful? Vague expression is grand but the reality is some of us do make an Axis-focused PC and we want to be sure we follow the community and their concise step the right way. There is no different answer for this question. Vastly incongruous is just that. "VASTLY INCONGRUOUS." That means the difference between the listed alignment and the character's behavior is deemed to be substantially non-trivial. This is not a numerical equation, and it doesn't work to define a judgment call in those terms. The quantitative value is reflected by how severely the alignment is shifted, I suppose. That's measured on an X-Y axis so can be quantified at that point. Anything that comes before that is applying abstract numbers to attempt to calculate something that can only be defined with precision by the end-result. As I said, these shifts are often ill-received, and thus less common. They usually start as small nudges to indicate a character is behaving in a way that doesn't fit the alignment on the sheet. If you get an alignment shift without requesting one, that should be a pretty good indicator that continuing to act the same way will continue to shift your alignment away from the alignment you have specified. It's also possible that other signs of divine disfavor (in the case of divine characters that depend on specific alignments) may appear to the character before such a shift occurs. I get it man. Believe me I know the setting, but it isn't about me ... it's covering a basis here. How far is too far? You'll know when you get there. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 1:30:07 GMT -5
Thanks Munroe. You're right of course: me trolling on the pretense that the title of the subject doesn't match the context of the material, and I can change this if you want. No, I mean your flood of DM Q&As, particularly the last few about abstract concepts that are better studied than answered directly. I don't mind the subject. It asks a specific question to lead to a general one, but that's fine. It's not clear as far as DM Q&A subjects do, but it is what it is, and if I don't like it, I'll change it. (I renamed a whole bunch of the DM Q&A threads at one point, when you used to be able to sort the forum by thread name, so they could be sorted by related topics.) "We do make them on occasion though when a character's specified alignment on the sheet and behavioral alignment in practice are vastly incongruous" What's that quantitative value of incongruousness? So that my Chaotic PC can avoid being shifted to Neutral, or Lawful? Vague expression is grand but the reality is some of us do make an Axis-focused PC and we want to be sure we follow the community and their concise step the right way. There is no different answer for this question. Vastly incongruous is just that. "VASTLY INCONGRUOUS." That means the difference between the listed alignment and the character's behavior is deemed to be substantially non-trivial. This is not a numerical equation, and it doesn't work to define a judgment call in those terms. The quantitative value is reflected by how severely the alignment is shifted, I suppose. That's measured on an X-Y axis so can be quantified at that point. Anything that comes before that is applying abstract numbers to attempt to calculate something that can only be defined with precision by the end-result. As I said, these shifts are often ill-received, and thus less common. They usually start as small nudges to indicate a character is behaving in a way that doesn't fit the alignment on the sheet. If you get an alignment shift without requesting one, that should be a pretty good indicator that continuing to act the same way will continue to shift your alignment away from the alignment you have specified. It's also possible that other signs of divine disfavor (in the case of divine characters that depend on specific alignments) may appear to the character before such a shift occurs. I get it man. Believe me I know the setting, but it isn't about me ... it's covering a basis here. How far is too far? You'll know when you get there. My flood of the DM Q&A isn't meant to be some antagonistic poke or war plan. I don't understand why there is any focus on that. I am only motivated to just post in bulk. I could make 1 post per month and effectively be no different. .... Whatever How can I maintain my Chaoticness in an environment that doesn't quantify how to maintain Chaos? DnD/PnP are great standards but I am trying to simply be apart of a community and understanding the community standards. I'm not a player advocate but I am certainly advocating for several people right now, so please bare with me as I throw myself out there. I'm not perfect. DM's inflict a judgement on a PC that might be the antithesis of said PC's alignment (negative shift). The question is, would the player set their PC up for that mistake if they had an understanding of expected cited values? Are there axis-values we can concisely and publicaly post as a community so that Axis-Focused PC's can adhere to and blindly avoid the, "oops" factor? There's no harm in making mistakes. But mistakes with reprimand vs. mistakes with, "it's ok, it happens .. here's what we expect..." are 2 different things... I want to be able to know how to RP a lawful PC in FRC, or chaotic, or evil... so that I adhere to community standards. Is the Letter of the Law trumping the spirit of the Law? That type of deal |
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Post by Syd's Blue Sky on Jun 25, 2017 1:42:27 GMT -5
If I may be so bold? frc.proboards.com/thread/1935/ethos-insight-good-evil This is a thread you made on the exact topic in 2008. These are the books from which these quotes are drawn, in case anyone wants a little more detail.Book of Vile DarknessBook of Exalted DeedsThis is how the books present it. Application of all rules are indeed subject to the DM in question. That's how DnD works. |
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Post by Munroe on Jun 25, 2017 1:45:07 GMT -5
The answer, however, is still "It's subjective." Law, Good, Chaos, and Evil, are all objective concepts in D&D and Forgotten Realms, and by extension here on FRC, but adjudication ultimately falls to individuals that will be subjective and make interpretations. I already said it's not quantifiable to the degree that you want because it isn't. Even with numbers, different people, both DMs and players, will view those numbers differently. Behavior is hard to assign numerical values, like feelings. How sad are you today? A four. How sad are you today? A two. Both people may feel exactly the same, but they assign the same thing different values. "How big was the baby's tantrum today?" "I'd give it a twelve." "I'd give it a seven." (Of course this is from This is Spinal Tap) I just don't think you're asking for something that can be defined in the terms you want. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 1:53:03 GMT -5
If I may be so bold? frc.proboards.com/thread/1935/ethos-insight-good-evil This is a thread you made on the exact topic in 2008. These are the books from which these quotes are drawn, in case anyone wants a little more detail. [Removed links to D&D PDF books -- Munroe] I left both links as presented in my magic bar in case anyone has any hesitation to click rando PDFs. I don't think it gave me anything unsavory. This is how the books present it. Application of all rules are indeed subject to the DM in question. That's how DnD works. Thanks Syds, I know what I posted in the past, and I know what I can continue to offer, but I do not speak for the community. My lore posts are for generic interpretations because of the objectiveness of the setting. - as cited However, what I am asking for is a definition of the terms that i want, and that mr. munroe is advocating that it is not possible. There are how many DM's? There are therefore how many variances of perspective grasp of Law, Chaos, Good, Evil..? Does each DM understand the source books? I am not expecting the DM's to understand all the source material that I know ... I simply feel there may be a community value of expected ... generic? ... adherence's for people to not be, butt-surprised by. |
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Post by Munroe on Jun 25, 2017 1:59:32 GMT -5
Please do not post links to PDFs of the sourcebooks. I edited both your posts to remove the links to the PDFs.
While we quote the books here on the forums extensively, linking to copyrighted material (PDFs of books) could be a problem with our forum provider, not to mention the copyright holders.
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Post by Syd's Blue Sky on Jun 25, 2017 1:59:37 GMT -5
Source governs what the DMs can and can't do, as well. If a DM gives you Evil points for stealing an apple pie cooling on a window sill, they're wrong and the change will (hopefully) be reversed upon contestation.
I think you're basically asking for every single DM to encyclopedically list how they would react to every single conceivable situation that could ever occur on FRC? That's ridiculous? It's faster for the confused parties, the ones for which you are advocating, to educate themselves on the details of the setting and play with the expectation that the DMs are educated on those details as well.
And if a DM makes a mistake? Respectfully call them out. They're just players with fancy buttons, and they do make mistakes.
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Post by Munroe on Jun 25, 2017 2:06:57 GMT -5
I don't think I can answer you in a way that will satisfy you, Warlord. As a reminder, players should not respond in DM Q&A threads. I think this is the extent of my replies for this evening though. If you would like to talk about the subject between yourselves, please continue in a PM or in the General forum, not in the DM Q&A. |
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