Post by bloodalchemist on Nov 19, 2014 13:40:49 GMT -5
Apologies in advance if this has already been discussed on the forums, as after a search I could not find anything, I did try!
Alright, so a friend and I were having a little chat about power balance on frc this morning, musing over the many threads that pop up about wizards and sorcerors being vastly more powerful than any other class (which is true) and that on a low magic server, the ease at which casters can get gear to max out the +12 to a stat favors them largely, increasing already high dcs to incredible levels.
We ended up discussing Devastating crit, and how so many servers consider it 'op' yet see spellcasters with a wail dc of 32-38 fair when in a low magic setting, that means anyone without the ability to have deathward, spell resistance or buffed monk-paladin saves is dead upon cast. No, just from crunching some basic numbers, lets say the average level 22 wizard is being considered. An intelligence of at least 20 is easily assumed. add the +12 from gear that that, you have a modifier of 11 to all spells. Banshees wail is automatically given a dc of 19, so 30 dc base. If you have spell focus necromancy, or greater spell focus (every wizard i have spoken too on frc, and most sorcerors have both of these) you are looking at a 32, or a 36 dc. With haste, a wizard is firing off 2-3 of these a round, which at level 22 can affect up to 22 people within its range, which is fairly large. Now, this isnt a call for a nerf on this spell, or other level 9 tier spells.
Wizards should be powerful, my main worry comes in during the second part. Does anyone know of a wizard or sorceror on this server who in epic levels cant solo th vast majority of content by spelling up, pulling our a shield and weapon, and going to town with 45-55 ac depending on other build decisions. I dont think I know of an epic mage who doesnt do this on the regular.
Basically, a mage with a pixie, a fighter level, and gold enough to buy and now enchant a mithril shirt and various gear, can do everything every other class can do with ease, incredible ease. They have lasting ability to tank, excellent single target insta-kill potential, excellent aoe target insta-kill potential, basically no weaknesses what so ever besides needing to rest to refresh these abilities.
Taking this all into account, lets look at the dev crit feat. most fighters begin thegame with something near 16, 16 being the most common starting point, at 20 that becomes 21 str if all points have been placed into it. Earliest a -pure- fighter could recieve the dev crit feat would be around 26 i believe? If you are only leveling as a pure fighter for the bonus feats and taking all str upgrades, plus the required overwhelming crit. For most this would be a feat they couldnt even consider until 30 or so, well into epic.
Now lets do some number crunching. Dev crit offhand looks like an 'op ability', but the numbers actually tell a different story when compared to the above. SO, lets assume the fighter has the 25 str needed, +12 from gear avaliable on frc, thats 37, a +13 modifier to the dc check, at level 30 that means you would have a dc of 38, what a necromancy focused caster can reach at level 22-24, if they have a high starting spell modifier stat. Now, a dc 38 vs death on crit might seem strong, but you have to actually take into account how often that will happen. For exmaple, lets use mara. She can crit, with her very rare keen weapon, as a wm, only on a confirmed roll of 16-20. That means she has to pass 2 checks vs someones ac just to have the chance to roll a dc check on the victims fort save, vs a caster using 2 banshee's wails, 100% chance hitting, and only 1 check per person killed, upwards ot 22, at eight levels lower than your average dev crit user. 100% chance of hitting 2 times per round, vs a 25% chance of rolling a 16-20, if that fighter can even hit with a 19 and under roll, then having to confirm against their ac yet again, then having to bypass a fort save, which is also likely benefiting from +12 to an ability score via gear, pots and spells.
The only possibly 'op' side of this ability I see remains the fact deathward will not prevent it. However, when you consider that every time it does occur, the fighter has to overcome 3 dc checks, the lengthy time and focus is takes to aquire the feat, (only available to the epic of the epic fighters who have dedicated to earning this feat) that only seems fair. Its the one threat casters would have little ability to prepare against, considering how often everyone else is unable to prepare against magical assault without meta knowledge coming into play.
Basically, instead of nerfing mages constantly, which is one solution to the disparity between casters and non-casters in a "low magic" setting (because lets face it, if you just take away from those who cant cast magic, but dont change the actual spellcasters stuff, frc is only a low magic setting for those who cant use spells or take umd to bypass this weakness) Maybe we can give the meat heads back this one pretty cool feat, that might bring some 'balance' to the late game in a small way. No one wants the cool stuff of their classes taken from them, I can understand that. So why not give something back?
Anyways, sorry for the rambling post, felt I needed to back up my question with some math. Are there PvE things I am missing in the banning of this feat? Cause the usual complaints of OPness just, seem invalid when you look at the current balance of epic classes, and the ease at which someone can haste, time stop, and affect upwards of 60-80 people with banshee wails, or a group of 20 people 3-4 times each with a dc of 32-38 vs insta death. which also applies equally to a pve scenario.
Alright, so a friend and I were having a little chat about power balance on frc this morning, musing over the many threads that pop up about wizards and sorcerors being vastly more powerful than any other class (which is true) and that on a low magic server, the ease at which casters can get gear to max out the +12 to a stat favors them largely, increasing already high dcs to incredible levels.
We ended up discussing Devastating crit, and how so many servers consider it 'op' yet see spellcasters with a wail dc of 32-38 fair when in a low magic setting, that means anyone without the ability to have deathward, spell resistance or buffed monk-paladin saves is dead upon cast. No, just from crunching some basic numbers, lets say the average level 22 wizard is being considered. An intelligence of at least 20 is easily assumed. add the +12 from gear that that, you have a modifier of 11 to all spells. Banshees wail is automatically given a dc of 19, so 30 dc base. If you have spell focus necromancy, or greater spell focus (every wizard i have spoken too on frc, and most sorcerors have both of these) you are looking at a 32, or a 36 dc. With haste, a wizard is firing off 2-3 of these a round, which at level 22 can affect up to 22 people within its range, which is fairly large. Now, this isnt a call for a nerf on this spell, or other level 9 tier spells.
Wizards should be powerful, my main worry comes in during the second part. Does anyone know of a wizard or sorceror on this server who in epic levels cant solo th vast majority of content by spelling up, pulling our a shield and weapon, and going to town with 45-55 ac depending on other build decisions. I dont think I know of an epic mage who doesnt do this on the regular.
Basically, a mage with a pixie, a fighter level, and gold enough to buy and now enchant a mithril shirt and various gear, can do everything every other class can do with ease, incredible ease. They have lasting ability to tank, excellent single target insta-kill potential, excellent aoe target insta-kill potential, basically no weaknesses what so ever besides needing to rest to refresh these abilities.
Taking this all into account, lets look at the dev crit feat. most fighters begin thegame with something near 16, 16 being the most common starting point, at 20 that becomes 21 str if all points have been placed into it. Earliest a -pure- fighter could recieve the dev crit feat would be around 26 i believe? If you are only leveling as a pure fighter for the bonus feats and taking all str upgrades, plus the required overwhelming crit. For most this would be a feat they couldnt even consider until 30 or so, well into epic.
Now lets do some number crunching. Dev crit offhand looks like an 'op ability', but the numbers actually tell a different story when compared to the above. SO, lets assume the fighter has the 25 str needed, +12 from gear avaliable on frc, thats 37, a +13 modifier to the dc check, at level 30 that means you would have a dc of 38, what a necromancy focused caster can reach at level 22-24, if they have a high starting spell modifier stat. Now, a dc 38 vs death on crit might seem strong, but you have to actually take into account how often that will happen. For exmaple, lets use mara. She can crit, with her very rare keen weapon, as a wm, only on a confirmed roll of 16-20. That means she has to pass 2 checks vs someones ac just to have the chance to roll a dc check on the victims fort save, vs a caster using 2 banshee's wails, 100% chance hitting, and only 1 check per person killed, upwards ot 22, at eight levels lower than your average dev crit user. 100% chance of hitting 2 times per round, vs a 25% chance of rolling a 16-20, if that fighter can even hit with a 19 and under roll, then having to confirm against their ac yet again, then having to bypass a fort save, which is also likely benefiting from +12 to an ability score via gear, pots and spells.
The only possibly 'op' side of this ability I see remains the fact deathward will not prevent it. However, when you consider that every time it does occur, the fighter has to overcome 3 dc checks, the lengthy time and focus is takes to aquire the feat, (only available to the epic of the epic fighters who have dedicated to earning this feat) that only seems fair. Its the one threat casters would have little ability to prepare against, considering how often everyone else is unable to prepare against magical assault without meta knowledge coming into play.
Basically, instead of nerfing mages constantly, which is one solution to the disparity between casters and non-casters in a "low magic" setting (because lets face it, if you just take away from those who cant cast magic, but dont change the actual spellcasters stuff, frc is only a low magic setting for those who cant use spells or take umd to bypass this weakness) Maybe we can give the meat heads back this one pretty cool feat, that might bring some 'balance' to the late game in a small way. No one wants the cool stuff of their classes taken from them, I can understand that. So why not give something back?
Anyways, sorry for the rambling post, felt I needed to back up my question with some math. Are there PvE things I am missing in the banning of this feat? Cause the usual complaints of OPness just, seem invalid when you look at the current balance of epic classes, and the ease at which someone can haste, time stop, and affect upwards of 60-80 people with banshee wails, or a group of 20 people 3-4 times each with a dc of 32-38 vs insta death. which also applies equally to a pve scenario.
). Silence can also be used as a counter spell. Unfortunately, few PCs ever consider how useful being in counter spell mode actually is.
