DM Bias? Good vs. Evil

[Retired DM Gallin]

A few moments ago, I noticed a bit of an unfriendly post left by Visitant in the Roleplay Discussion area. While I may not agree with the way she said it, I will not simply quash out a topic that may be causing a problem with some of the players.

Visitant stated that:

"I've played an evil character named Visitant for some time. As I saw it I saw a lot of awesome DM interaction and had a lot of fun but knew they couldn't be with me all the time because they were busy. . . . Then recently I've been playing a few Good characters and I realized that I was getting way more than twice the attention and ridiculously larger rewards by comparison."

Visitant also said that there were many players who think this, but were too afraid to say anything about this. I truly hope this is not the case, as I did not think Cormyr was a server in which you had to hide your opinions from the DM so as to stay on their "good side."

So how about it folks, is this something others have seen as well? I personally have not seen this sort of thing, and I tend to work more with the evil players then the good, but that doesn't mean it's not happening. Please give us some input on this one. If for whatever reason, you feel like you can't post it here, send a PM to myself or anyone on the team that you trust. Thanks in advance.

~Corey

[Retired DM Gallin]

Adding to what I had just said, if you have a problem with any DM, or think your being treated unfairly, PLEASE speak to someone about it. We're all here to have a good time, and it has been my experience that those sorts of things are often misunderstandings that end up ruining a player's stay. I always try and make myself available for players, but again, feel free to talk to any DM you trust. This goes for concerns against players as well.

Screenshots and logs are a great way to speed up the process!

~Gallin

[evilkama]

Ill be brief on the subject as i am treading on thin ice about some stuff but i will make comment on bias ....to date only had one minor incident with a guess you could call it a good dm clamping down on an evil pc by making life tough for him namely kallan.
Apart from that there has been a spread of good roleplays and roleplay experience awarded accordingly ...ive been absent for a while for ...various reasons... but i did notice one attempt maybe two to possibly shield a good pc from an evil pc ...perhaps im wrong ... perhaps bias toward evil doesnt exist...*shrugs* ...just felt like i was jumped on by one dm ...and was really dissapointed hence my absense for quite some time.
Ill be honest from the volume of pcs and roleplays done ...id say the core handled effectively and professionally 99 percent of plays ...my error i guess was with kallan soloing on occassion ...but i ask that the core take heed of the depth in persona of kallans play and consider the plays at the time calling for evasive roleplaying in some respects ...not farming or pg'ing ...my plays lay testament to my ability as a player ... this i contest in the spirit of roleplay ...and in a good sense not a negative one.
Can be complicated sometimes when placed in pecurious situations where one has to take guise and choose allys carefully ...to the point of having to be solo... in kallans case and the surrounding plays it was nessesary at the time.
The stigma and the confusion surrounding the 'event' which took place ive since made approaches to the core to rectify and clarify my position as im sure they are aware of.
In terms of good vs evil ...... ive seen a lot of servers ...and seen different methods with dealing with evil and good players ... one idea was to dedicate dms to evil pcs and ones to good in turn...that way there exists no confusion as there is direction and balance ...but arises the stigmatic dogma of personal interest to their flock ...when say an evil dm is watching some goodies or in turn a good dm watching some evilness at play ...

..in conclusion i say let it ride ill roll with whatever things will get better in time im sure.

[DM Valkyrie]

I would also like to hear any concerns or issues you guys may have. You may send them by PM or post here. When I'm on I try to spend some time with everyone who happens to be on, regardless of PC alignment. What I look for mainly is character developement and roleplay, stories and the like. My quests tend to be short one shot deals, which the PCs will lead and will flow according to their decisions. Sometimes I don't have time to involved in something long and drawn out, but when ever I see good RP, regardless of alignment, you will know that I saw it when you see the RP XP.

The goal is for everyone to have fun, but not for a few to have fun at the expense of others' enjoyment of the server. As long as everyone is playing by the server rules, we can all enjoy the server. And that is what I hope I am doing for you all.

[Thrym]

As I am not playing evil currently, I can't say how it is at the moment, especially not since there are many new DMs since I did, but I thought I'll just write up how I experienced the DMs behaviour as I did.

Back then, it really seemed to me as if the DMs would spend more time with 'good people'. Before Jandor I had played Shazzar, and I had very much DM attention. Now I played Jandor longer than Shazzar I think, should have been at least three or four months. In all that time, I did not even once meet a DM with him.

Now of course some people might say 'Maybe you did not roleplay enough', but actually I spent most of the time with Jandor roleplaying instead of running around and killing monsters. And I think Jandor was pretty (in)famous at the time he was around, after all there were very many (and I mean very many) level 15+ char trying to kill him all the time, so I find it hard to believe none of the DMs ever heard of him.


My other evil char twice met a DM. He had managed to get the trust of most good chars and was trying to infiltrate the Knights of Honor. Just as Byrnolf had let him join, Padrin came up and told of some problem in Redmist. He went there with Byrnolf, Padrin and Aili, but we just found some weak monsters which we killed easily. Byrnolf wanted to detect evil to find out if their leader was hiding, but he could not find him. It was known OOC to Byrnolf and pretty much any other paladin that traveled with me that Dynar was usually using an Undetectable alignment spell to mask him, and I told that the DM either. Well, I got a pretty unfriendly tell from the DM that I may not hide my alignment and have to keep away from Paladins. Giving Paladins their detect (which they have in pen and paper, but not in NWN), but denying evil spellcasters the spells to hide it (Which they have in pen and paper, but not in NWN) is a very unfair decision towards the evil characters in my opinion.

The second DM event was happening the next day. Now that everyone knew my char was evil, he was pretty alone. As I did not want to go soloing for money, I decided to scout a new area when I suddenly got a tell from a DM (but not the same one as yesterday). The tell was not meant for me though, it was for another DM telling him to take care of that soloer. The other DM spawned some hill giant on my low level char that I could barely manage to escape alive. Being still pretty angry abotu yesterday, I left the server for some time shortly after this.

So... yes. At least back then, I think some of the DMs had something against evil chars. As said, I don't know how that is nowadays, but I thought I'd post this, despite the fact that I may step on someones toes with it.

Shazzar

[DM Richard (Retired)]

Alignment is one of the things I don't bother checking in a character because I play also and don't want any OOC information learned as a DM effecting my decisions as a player.

We've had our learning curve here in FRC the same as in any module. We've learned what works and what doesn't. For a long time we didn't have forums where we could post information or discuss things. We used to depend on emails or meeting in game. Some of you may remember the original DM crew. Most of you don't or the most notorious DM vote would have been a no brainer. Our history may be rocky but I hope our present and future is smooth.

Is it Good vs. Evil? Or might it be one of many other things? One DM vs. another? One time zone vs. another? One group vs. another? New players vs. old? Soloers vs. groups? Do you role-play or do you farm? Are we on as a player or as a DM at any particular time? As you can see there are many different factors that may be causing the difference.

Personally I used to spread my time evenly... then I mainly started helping new players... then I got involved in a couple of player started events... Then I got burned out and I mostly played. I'm on in different characters now days looking to role-play with people as a player. I still handle any troubles that may arise and help with issues that players may have.

Good vs. Evil? Lawful vs. Chaotic? That doesn't matter to me. What matters is that you follow our rules and don't cheat. In my recent dealings with issues it was the Good guys that were in the wrong and a few weeks later it was the Evil person that was in the wrong.

That doesn't mean there isn't something going on that I'm not aware of so feel free to contact me if you feel you are being wronged.

[DM Justicar - Creator of FRC]

I am not going to get involved in the aurgument except to say that it is absolutely untrue that there is any bias against evil players in general.

If we were biased against evil players, why would I be putting the finishing touches on an evil player based guild house that will be in the module later today? That wouldn't make much sense, would it?

What we are biased against are meta-gamers, power-gamers, farmers and people who refuse to roleplay or attempt to roleplay. There IS a bias against players who choose evil and don't roleplay it properly (same goes for good). Evil doesn't always mean psycho-killing-sociopathic-murderer. If you have a specific question about roleplaying evil, contact a DM, they will be happy to help.

Roleplayers sweep the greatest rewards on FRC. There is nothing else to say about that.

I always welcome comments and discussion though and look forward to hearing what the players have to say. Let's keep the discussion meaningful and fair and this could be a productive thread.

Please no flaming or accusation slinging.

[moulinous]

To be honest, i never have noticed a DM bias against anything. Heck, and as sneaky as these damm DMs are,lol, I know my typical soloist guy does RP better even when nobody is around just cause you never know if nobody's around if you get my drift. RPing good just becomes a habit. Well, i have noticed sometimes questions are answered harshly but as Justi pointed out to me and i quote " I am not peeved or mad in any way. Sometimes I give quick precise answers because I have to, and I have learned that I need to use very specific language so I am not mis-interpreted; so sometimes it might come off stern, but that's not meant to be unfriendly." this was a pm by Justi as i asked him if i had made him mad due to a question i asked. If a DM gives me a harsh question i usually pm him/her to find out what is up to make sure there was no misunderstandings as sometimes coming across the PC in tells you cannot "hear" what is really intended in the tell if you know what i mean. Has there been times i have disagreed with the way a situation was handled? well, of course, i am human. i like to jog around cormyr, dms do not like that, i like to solo, dms do not like that, i hate when traveling with someone powerful(corbin) that my poor guy gets the raw end of the stick as the balor wants to kill me(lol) and not the damm tree hugger. sorry, tangent. anyhow, i have not really noticed a real dm bias and since me and a certain gnome travel together a lot, you can believe me, we would notice. And this is even after my guild idea was smashed...

[Talus]

I would have to agree with Moulinous here. I have seen very little bias from the DM's. Eventhings that didn't go my way, were handled well. So I guess I have nothing really to add here.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

I would have to say that it is very hard to judge bias. As a player, how do i know if i am getting more or less dm attention. You can't really quantify it. However, I will say this. I do there believe there may be a slight bias towards specific characters/players, regardless of alignment. Now whether this is because these players are excellent rper's and the dms are awarding them more so, or if it is because they just happen to be on when the dms are on, who am i to say. That is why as a player, i try to contact the dms as little as possible in game unless an emergency arrives because i do not wish to hog their time. Thus, I find it most enjoyable when a dm surprises me.

So there is no good way to judge between players if anyone player is getting more attention or not. It solely relies upon the dms themselves to keep tabs on this. From what it sounds like, they are (and always have been) on top of this.

Though I will propose one thing. I think it may be necessary for the dms to try to spend a little more time with those that rp little/farm/solo a little more to entice them into the true meaning of the server. Though I am a proponent of spanking a dog when it does something bad, a dog will never learn if you do not spend time with it.

[marklar]

i'm gonna keep this short, i used to have a beef with a DM, only 1. but i think that's cool now since i've had no bad occurances with that DM for a really long time. i've only had about 3 DM things ever happen to me where it's been positive namely me not getting smitted(not saying i didn't deserve it). now padrin, for instance, started on the exact date i did, he seems to get a DM quest weekly, i know because we're good friends and he tells me about them. i'm not mad or anything of that nature just think it's kinda odd that we've both been playing for 10 months and he's got way over 10 DM quests and me 3 (oh and those 3 have been only recently). maybe it's just that i'm a really crapy role player because i know it's not how much time i spend RP'ing becuase most of my time is that. i'm gonna just leave it at that.

[olwentheold]

I think Richard makes a lot of good points concerning certain factors that players should bear in mind before crying foul (e.g., time zones, farmers vs RPer . . .) but I think I should also address some of the concerns some players pointed out in the most recent posts.

Some players state that they've been here a long time and rarely get any attention. Some state further than some players get a lot of attention recently. Well to that I can tell you that I've been on the server a while too, and DM attention wasn't very common for me either - and I largely attribute that to a period when there weren't many DMs on at the times I used to play - it's as simple as that. The DM famine season, if you would like to call it that

So why is Padrin getting 10 quests recently and others not? Once again, timing. I suppose some players can attest to being fortunate (or unfortunate - depending on how you view things) that they've been receiving a lot of quests of late, likely because it was the holiday period and more DMs were around. I think personally, DM Hexer and myself have been very active in this area as well - and if you haven't noticed, we weren't DMing until only recently .

As for personally being biased against evil characters, I'll have to say that is untrue. As I've stated in a previous post where there was a comment about the lack of DM attention - I personally will only RP with players who demonstrate some ability to RP and will not waste my time on farmers, powergamers, cheaters etc etc etc. Am I biased in that sense? Yes. Time wasted on people who do not respect the server's rules and purpose is time spent away from people who more deserve the due attention.

[DM Richard (Retired)]

Before this thread gets hijacked with who is getting what quests, let me point out that there have been a lot of DM's on leave for some time now.

We have brought in new DM's to cover those time zones and they have (for lack of a better term) more energy than some of us. Some time zones may be getting more event time right now. But they were getting little event time before.

Events may be centered around a particular class of characters, group of characters, region of the module, or even something player driven (where they peaked our interest not because they asked).

None of that has to do with alignment though. So lets keep this thread on track. If you feel like this needs discussed start a second thread.

Thank you

[Laurk]

There is another point here when it comes to evil players vs. good players and their DM attention. One is that take Padrin for example. He has many friends around, or at least, people he "can" adventure with. When a DM comes on, he typically goes into an area and sees if their is the right number of people of suitable level to do what he has in mind. Usually, those people are good guys or at least players who can get along with the others in the vicinity. Also, coming up with spur of the moment quests (for me) seems so much easier with good guys. Rescue the maiden, slay the merauding bad guys... etc. etc.
However, if it makes you feel better you baddies, we are working on a major event FOR evil characters, as well as some theif missions.

Laurk

[DM Justicar - Creator of FRC]

marklar said:

i'm gonna keep this short, i used to have a beef with a DM, only 1. but i think that's cool now since i've had no bad occurances with that DM for a really long time. i've only had about 3 DM things ever happen to me where it's been positive namely me not getting smitted(not saying i didn't deserve it). now padrin, for instance, started on the exact date i did, he seems to get a DM quest weekly, i know because we're good friends and he tells me about them. i'm not mad or anything of that nature just think it's kinda odd that we've both been playing for 10 months and he's got way over 10 DM quests and me 3 (oh and those 3 have been only recently). maybe it's just that i'm a really crapy role player because i know it's not how much time i spend RP'ing becuase most of my time is that. i'm gonna just leave it at that.

Crimeny! Three recent DM events? That's not bad...

Appently you can roleplay. Now if we can just cut the OOC tell chat to other players? What a fine player you would be.

[Munroe]

One thing DM Richard mentioned is not looking at player alignments. I usually do not look at player alignments because I also play and, as a player, I don't want to know.

However, if I notice a new cleric that I haven't seen before, I will log on as a DM to specifically cross-check their deity, alignment, and domains, to try and catch any mismatches as soon as possible. The same is true for multi-classed paladins (of course I know their alignment).

I do not DM daily though, so if you see me at all, congratulations. I have had more time for NWN recently (and have more time coming) so you may see me in the future.

[DM Grizwald]

"Crimeny! Three recent DM events? That's not bad...

Appently you can roleplay. Now if we can just cut the OOC tell chat to other players? What a fine player you would be. "

Are you talking about me?...i've stopped talking OOC to other people besides the...i've really got nothing to do, are you busy kinda thing. i hope thats not bad. And just so you guys know, mark was not making reference to us sending tells, we actually know eachother in RL.

besides this im going to avoid this thread like mike jackson

[DM Justicar - Creator of FRC]

clarkgrizwald said:

"Crimeny! Three recent DM events? That's not bad...

Appently you can roleplay. Now if we can just cut the OOC tell chat to other players? What a fine player you would be. "

Are you talking about me?...i've stopped talking OOC to other people besides the...i've really got nothing to do, are you busy kinda thing. i hope thats not bad. And just so you guys know, mark was not making reference to us sending tells, we actually know eachother in RL.

besides this im going to avoid this thread like mike jackson

You, him, her... everyone, heh. I am not saying it IS you. But, anyone who is doing this is kinda wrong, unless it is a close buddy for completely ooc (un-game related) conversation. Sending ooc tells to gossip IC about a player is just silly... but I think we get alot on FRC. I have no idea why...

FRC would never become a server that listened into to private player tells. However it is important to realize you might be playing with a DM at any moment and it is possible it might be someone you know very well...

[DM Richard (Retired)]

"However it is important to realize you might be playing with a DM at any moment and it is possible it might be someone you know very well..."


*grins at a new DM that found that out*

[marklar]

mjolnirsbane said:

marklar said:

i'm gonna keep this short, i used to have a beef with a DM, only 1. but i think that's cool now since i've had no bad occurances with that DM for a really long time. i've only had about 3 DM things ever happen to me where it's been positive namely me not getting smitted(not saying i didn't deserve it). now padrin, for instance, started on the exact date i did, he seems to get a DM quest weekly, i know because we're good friends and he tells me about them. i'm not mad or anything of that nature just think it's kinda odd that we've both been playing for 10 months and he's got way over 10 DM quests and me 3 (oh and those 3 have been only recently). maybe it's just that i'm a really crapy role player because i know it's not how much time i spend RP'ing becuase most of my time is that. i'm gonna just leave it at that.

Crimeny! Three recent DM events? That's not bad...

Appently you can roleplay. Now if we can just cut the OOC tell chat to other players? What a fine player you would be.

.....ouch.....i admit i do OOC chat in tells with a few people whom i trust, since the people are good role players or they are my good friends in RL. BUT only information that they ask so they atleast know or isn't secret.

[Laurk]

*coughs* Are you sure Mark? Hey, did my dragon ever find you for that question the other day?
Oh. Happy Birthday.
Laurk

[kenny26]

I have only started playing one evil character recently, and this evil character is not even persieved as being evil for the most time...

However, if it has relevanse, I'll be happy to adress the topic.
Have I experienced any DMs being biased against one of my characters over the other? No.

I have been getting DM attention of a good nature on several occasions, regardless of which one of the characters I was playing at the moment.
Kruhl once had to defend his morality in front of a nature spirit, and that encounter was very pleasant from a roleplaying perspective. A great little story.
Jargo has had lots of casual chats with his favourite local in isinhold: Kale. ;D

If DMs were ever biased (and this is where I want to be careful not to leave the wrong impression) then it was only at a personal level.
Whether we like it or not, alot of the actions we take are affected by what we think of each other, and DMs are no exception to this.

Bottom line: I'm not percieving any DMs being biased towards evil or good characters, and my comments about this on a personal level are a different topic. One I hope is kept to a minimum by both sides.

[marklar]

laurk said:

*coughs* Are you sure Mark? Hey, did my dragon ever find you for that question the other day?
Oh. Happy Birthday.
Laurk

lol i didn't expect an answer, infact i expect a find out IC...and no not yet i can be a hard guy to catch. and thanks