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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Jul 28, 2005 19:04:13 GMT -5
And a smart cleric would lure each one of the orcs one by one and eliminate them. He wouldnt take much damage with his AC and if he did, he could just heal it at no cost.
Here on the flip side I will give you a specific case where a cleric beats a rogue. The mines outside of skull crag with the drow undead. Even if the rogue were to only face one of those undead wizards, he would lose. Sure he can dodge the flame spell, but he will need to be extremely lucky (due to his low save fort) if he is gonna dodge the insta death spell. Even then, he is gonna be hard pressed to kill one of those undead warriors one on one.
As for Galia fighting a level 16 cleric, she would have to roll a 10 (50/50 chance) or better to beat his spell resistance (1d20 + level + 4 from greater spell penetration). As for a greater missle storm at 15 it will do on average about 90 damage ... maximized it can do 240 (but thats not till level 20). But how does she do soloing against monsters?
My original challenge remains: a sepcific incident where a rogue can beat something a cleric cannot on FRC.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Jul 28, 2005 19:06:59 GMT -5
And rich is right, there shouldnt be anything on the server that only one class can beat and another cannot. But those drow undead, the nam sun, and the Remnant orc mercenaries lean heavier towards being killed more easily by spell casters.
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Post by soulfien on Jul 28, 2005 20:13:04 GMT -5
Sorry, quadhund, didn't realize you only meant when dealing with undead. Yeah, rogues suck against undead compared to clerics. They can just turn them.
See, I thought you meant when a rogue was going against a LIVING spellcaster monster or NPC. I do know they exist on FRC, but since you're only talking about undead, I guess I'm not able to provide a good argument.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Jul 28, 2005 20:41:48 GMT -5
Alright, apparently the question is misunderstood. I'm sorry I started this thread.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Jul 28, 2005 22:19:35 GMT -5
Quad, Im not sure I follow.. I just sited a great example of where a rogue beats a cleric. Of course, not against undead. Hit and run in proper terrain and you will see a rogue far exceed a cleric in effieceny since virtually every blow struck in the encounter is a sneak attack. As for it working, who would know better than me. Its what Manshin does best. Ive been utilizing that tactic and fighting monsters way beyond my level range for a long time. At level 8, I was beating down ancient dire bears that way in the Haunted Halls of Eveningstar. Those monsters would wipe me out in toe to toe. A straight rogue in the same position would be much better because of the extra sneak attack damage... Your cleric's buffs arent going to stop an Ancient Dire Bear from hitting you at that level.
As for Galia, I think you are mistaken. As I said, talk to Gial. She killed him with one hit with her maximised missle storm, and she was only level 15 or 16 at the time... not 20. He has around 180 HP I believe. As for the penetration, I may be mistaken, but I think she said her Charisma modifer effects this as well, which, if it does, would be considerable. And with greater Sanctuary, you cannot target her with any form of attack. So she gets a free spell against you. That is powerful. As for her soloing ability, I am not sure. She can certainly throw a lot of heat, and tells me she rarley takes more than ten damage from an attack because of all her protections, but I doubt she can last as long as a fighter just because her spells are limited.. but thats the way this game is supposed to be. None of us can deal 200 damage in one hit, but then, we dont run out of sword. So in the end, I suppose it balances out.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Jul 28, 2005 23:06:35 GMT -5
And by solo do you mean not using your familiar? If so thats like taking away a good portion of the mage classes built in firepower. That's like saying you can't use the rogues sneak attack. A summoned creature or familiar or both together and buffed can make a huge difference.
By the way out of the monsters that can be sneak attacked, you can go toe to toe with almost all of them and half half or more of the attacks (even every attack if you know how) be a sneak attack.
Also the creatures that chase you around a corner still suffer from sneak attacks if you stealthed before they ran around it and ambush them.
To answer the question about what creature only a rogue could beat and a cleric can't... I don't think anything exists in FRC or any mod I've played in. It would have to be a creature that was resistant to magic, resistant to elemental damage (at least fire), be able to regenerate 10 hit points a round (or have physical damage reduction of 15 / - or even some combination of the two) and not be undead. Otherwise both can kill it.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Jul 28, 2005 23:16:49 GMT -5
A level 16 Sorcerer can cast EMPOWERED Isaac's Greater Missile Storm which would be 32d6 times 150%.
That averages to 3.5 X 32 X 1.5 = 168 points of damage.
That's just an aside to the earlier comment.
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Post by Spooks on Jul 29, 2005 0:54:43 GMT -5
Hmmm... Here's a scenario...
Being as I have FINALLY gotten a char to lvl 10... I dont have much experience as to what great monsters are out there but I know one scenario.
Greater Mummy. This is a set example, but lets pit a lvl 7 cleric vs it...
Clerics buff's up and runs at it with its abismal initiative... Assuming the aura of Fear doesnt repel him, Greater mummy debuffs him and takes off say... Barkskin, Bulls Strength, and Flameweapon... in one shot. Cleric cant rebuff all those without getting owned. so now his damage is nerfed, and his AC is down 3 points... if its debuffs him again he is as effective as a nerfed fighter.
lvl 7 rogue:
Rogue come's in stealthed, and goes at it... the mummy gets its aura activation interrupted (I dont know why... but it is disruptable) Now the fear aspect is out. now just stand there disrupting its spells until it runs out, when itll start bashing you. This may take a while but you can always runs and hide from it (since it runs slowly)to heal where as if the cleric tries to run and cast a heal he needs to retest to make sure he isnt "feared" when he rejoins the fray again and if he casts defensively, he'll still get pummeled as much if not more than what he healed...
Add in ANY traps you might have on hand, and it becomes that much easier...
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Misha Aogail
Old School
Player of: Torian Burrfoot, Misha, Whisper, and Oriana Gant
Posts: 324
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Post by Misha Aogail on Jul 29, 2005 7:57:01 GMT -5
Really, all classes can be seen as unbalanced and unequal in as many ways as there are people playing them. There's really only one way to make them balanced: Those who know the strengths of the classes utilizing them. And of course, strategy. Where as a fighter will mostly run into a fight almost blindly, a rogue or wizard will stand back and create a strategy to best use the skills, spells, and items to destroy things and be just as effective.
Anyhoo... Yeah..
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Jurivancer
Old School
Retired FRC DM
Thats Right - Your Next
Posts: 386
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Post by Jurivancer on Jul 29, 2005 8:31:26 GMT -5
My original challenge remains: a sepcific incident where a rogue can beat something a cleric cannot on FRC. For people who know my main PC - I had to chime in to this thread. Now, I am not here to give away some of the cool PG'ing tips I have come across over my time playing, but I will give a resounding "yes" to your question. I have seen a rogue beat something that a cleric could not solo (at equivalent levels, of course). I am not going into the specifics, you have to find and use your own tactics in your own battles, but if you don't believe me then obviously you don't know my main PC as I have a little experience in playing cleric.
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Jurivancer
Old School
Retired FRC DM
Thats Right - Your Next
Posts: 386
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Post by Jurivancer on Jul 29, 2005 8:48:26 GMT -5
By the way out of the monsters that can be sneak attacked, you can go toe to toe with almost all of them and half half or more of the attacks (even every attack if you know how) be a sneak attack. Well now - I brought this up before, but decided that maybe I shouldn't elaborate on this to see if I could push people to exploit the Aurora engine - now Rich comes in and *bammo* a whole new round of warrior/rogues start the next day! ;D Oh, and also in response to Spooks regarding the undead scenario he posted: there is one thing on this server that the cleric truely excels at and only the paladin can come close - that is fighting undead. No other class can just destroy undead like a cleric can. Now throw together a Paladin and a Cleric (in a party, I hate the idea of multiclassed paladins) and Wow, you can really put those restless buggers to sleep! For tough hand to hand, get a warrior type in your party, the cleric will not hold up under a heavy beating. Try making your "heal" concentraction check when you have a DC 148 to roll: go ahead, I dare ya! And all of you who think a mage or sorcerer is weak or underpowered, I suggest you make yourself an apprentice to an experienced spellcaster and take yourself to school. And weak bards? No, thats all I will say on that matter. As stated before, all the classes have strengths and weaknesses. If you dwell on the weaknesses, you can make all the classes look bad. If you want a strong PC, just learn how to exploit your strengths while minimized your weaknesses and you'll be doing good. Of course, NWN has "built in" some true exploits in such matters, but we are working to keep the worst of these exploits from ruining everyone elses experiences. As for the base classes, they're all good!
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Post by MithrilBlade on Jul 29, 2005 9:02:20 GMT -5
About that mage power, yeah I have noticed the same, I used to play a mage that had empowered and maximized spell. When you take a look at the isaac's greater missile storm first I could cast the main spell about 6 times. That would mean (if you'd roll max damage) 6 * 12 * 20 = 1440. Okay that's just the FIRST part of it. Now we go to empowered spell, which I could cast erm...not sure but at least five times. 5 * 1.5 * 12 * 20 = 1800 Then I have still four or so maximized lv 9 spell slots, which actually does max damage every single time: 4 * 12 * 20 = 960 Now let's combine all this: 1440 + 1800 + 960 = 4200 damage. FOUR THOUSAND UNSAVEABLE DAMAGE. I tell you that it actually worked, I soloed the biggest, baddest red great wyrm dragon of the server which was made illegally powerful anyway, it had at least 2500 hp and all sorts of crazy spells but I did it alone. There's a sign of mage's capabilities, no cleric can do that
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Jul 29, 2005 10:36:32 GMT -5
Alright Alright ... I give in. Rogue is the most powerful class on the server. Through exploitation of sneak attack and hiding (basically using stealth as HiPS without it) he can kill anything. Even the big baddies with true seeing ... oh wait forgot about those. And why are the only characters that can use strategy the rogues and wizards? Why can't a level 8 cleric cast his buffs, cast summon creature IV, use a crossbow to hit the dire bear, lure it close and use hammer of gods on the dire bear and wipe it out no prob? So I guess its not really a mystery why there aren't any PURE rogues out there (aside from the level 22 one that has stopped playing). They are just too powerful and everyone feels bad playing them. That or only now do people know how to exploit the engine. I for one am much happier with this knowledge. Frost giants here I COME!!! All sarcasm aside now, this thread was started to see if people felt the classes were balanced (on this server) and apparently most think that they are. I believe this thread can be deleted, that way we dont spawn too many new rogue/fighter/weapon masters
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Jurivancer
Old School
Retired FRC DM
Thats Right - Your Next
Posts: 386
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Post by Jurivancer on Jul 29, 2005 12:11:52 GMT -5
Alright Alright ... I give in. Rogue is the most powerful class on the server. Through exploitation of sneak attack and hiding (basically using stealth as HiPS without it) he can kill anything. Even the big baddies with true seeing ... oh wait forgot about those. And why are the only characters that can use strategy the rogues and wizards? Why can't a level 8 cleric cast his buffs, cast summon creature IV, use a crossbow to hit the dire bear, lure it close and use hammer of gods on the dire bear and wipe it out no prob? I never did say Rogues were the most powerful class on the server. You asked a specific question, and I gave you a "yes" to your question. I'll keep my opinion as to the most powerful base class to myself (along with my reasons why) but say that multi-class PC's (solo) tend to almost always be stronger than a pure class. However, when in a party, the pure classes can really start to shine. The mixing of abilities of pure spellcasters and pure warrior types is awesome. And I think you missed my point that your Tactics *makes* your character, not the other way around. You can take the same base class and with skill and feat changes make compeletely different, yet comparable PC's. As for your complaint of no "pure rogues" - how many pure fighters, pure barbarians, heck - pure *anything* do you see?? Basically, the only *pure* PC's are the ones who have a real RP reason to do it. Cleric's tend to max out around level 20 (and some would argue before that) and multi-ing to CoT or even fighter (or druid or monk or Paladin for the real Powergamers with no RP cares at all), and to make them a "solo" type person, then a pure cleric is not the way to go. But no, I do not feel that the rogues are generally underpowered, but I do think that the game engine works against rogues and for warrior types at the lower levels and the caster types at the upper levels (of course depending on what sort of magic items you allow in the game). But our *goal* is to try and make it a good balanced world for all. What I would like to hear from you is what would you *like*to see, in terms of game suggestions, to help make rogues more fun. The aurora engine (and even the crappy 3.5 rules) makes lockpicking, set traps, remove traps as a *skill* worthless, as you only try when you get a take 20 anyhow (what a stupid, STUPID idea). You might as well say "all <x> level rogues can open this trap" and save the lousy processor spins for something more useful. Please give us suggestions to make your time here more fun (not necessarily just about rogues), and we will do what we can to keep everyone having fun. But please, do that in another thread, this one is too long.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Jul 29, 2005 12:18:08 GMT -5
Im not really sure why using your characters abilities intelligently is exploiting the engine. I suppose someone should have told the Mongels they were exploiting when they rode circles around their moron opponents who stood in tight formation getting pelted with arrows. Why the snobby attitude? If you find a creative way to fight, more power to you. I still do not see any instance where sneak attack is bs. Whoever said you can get it at least one attack per round... Id like to see it. After several years of playing a fighter rogue on various servers, I have yet to get a sneak attack outside of the above listed circumstances. Please keep in mind what a sneak attack is. It is using distraction and dirty tricks to hit an enemy where it hurts. A rogue who depends on this to stand against fighters would use EVERY advantage he had to utilize his main strength. Tricking enemies into getting attacks of oppertunity against them is only one. Id like to see you beat an Ancient Dire Bear with a cleric of eigth level, if you can cool. I beileve a rogue can do the same thing, probably better, and without depleting limited abilities. Im not saying Rogues are more powerful than anything. They cant fight undead, and hit and run tricks dont work on multiple enemies. Im just pointing out an instance where a rogue beats a cleric. Its not like thier arent countless instances of the opposite. I cant help if you dont like the weaponmaster class Quad, but if you can think of a better class that Manshin would take from an RP standpoint, please, let me know. If not, than for the love of the gods, let people play what they want without trashing them for it.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Jul 29, 2005 12:29:29 GMT -5
"Well now - I brought this up before, but decided that maybe I shouldn't elaborate on this to see if I could push people to exploit the Aurora engine - now Rich comes in and *bammo* a whole new round of warrior/rogues start the next day!" LOL Well one thing I'd like to say in my defense. There are some exploits that the engine allows both for and against the player, but there are legal pen and paper ways to get sneak attack damage that work in NWN. Don't confuse the two. Also I'm not saying rogues are the most powerful or best class. In my opinion they are one of the most versatile classes. The most powerful class is the one that the player instinctively knows how to play. Or maybe I should say the class you understand and know the best is the one you can play the best.
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Jurivancer
Old School
Retired FRC DM
Thats Right - Your Next
Posts: 386
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Post by Jurivancer on Jul 29, 2005 13:11:16 GMT -5
I'm not here to bicker about "who can legally use the aurora engine the best". I am just stating facts known to some in the game, and that we all know it is easier to figure out the elctronic game mechanics than if an actual PnP DM were overseeing when and if you were to receive your sneak attack, or any other abilities/tactics/etc. But the argument "because the game allows it, it is alright" is *not* a valid argument when the discussion of exploits is on the table. All exploits are allowed by the game mechanics - that is why they are exploits. Are there bigger problems/exploits? Yeah - thats why we have worked to deal with them and not mess with any of this code. The aurora engine is a terrible powergamers dream engine (as is Biowares generic game design), and it takes work to not let PG'ing take over a world and bury it. I am not here to say "you can't do anything", the thread asked my opinion regarding classes and I gave it. And I have to agree with Hroth's original point (I think), and that is that most "rogue players" (not all mind you) think the rogue class is just a "sneak attack" feat to add to your butt-kicking warrior, and do not expect to play "A Rogue". An honestly, if that is how you want to play, I do not have a problem with it, so please do not think I am trying to criticize or flame you. It is a playing choice, and except for the few restrictions we have applied to certain "exploit classes", do what you want and knock yourself out. As for your "tactics" you use to overcome the computer AI (which can be tricked easily), beware that some monster might have an idea and change tactics on you - could be a rude awakening (perhaps awakening isn't the right word ).
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Post by soulfien on Jul 29, 2005 13:19:23 GMT -5
I haven't played a rogue on this server since Raven and other powerful casters scared her away by summoning balors. 4 balor sightings and she was lvl 2. Yeah, tramatized her so I deleted her. Anyway, maybe someday if my current pc is killed I'll make my way back around to rogue. I play pure rogues- mostly assassins. I don't go fighter or weaponmaster or wizard or any other classes. I do pure rogue because I'm good at them. My rogues score critical hits for 6 damage and can nickle and dime someone to death. But they can walk up to 3 orcs and slay them all in a single round. It's probably a good thing I'm not playing one
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Jul 29, 2005 13:51:05 GMT -5
Manshin I apologize for the mention of the weapon master class. The thing is, there is only a select few players who have the number of rogue levels outweighing the rest of their levels (Chril is the only one that comes to mind). I guess the point I was trying to make with the comment is that the rogue class is almost entirely used as a supplement class and almost always used for the first 3 levels (sneak, evasion, and uncanny dodge). Play the character the way you want to play him. I'm not going to judge you in terms of powergaming or anything (cause gods know I am probably the worst one of all). And as for saying that "run, hide, sneak" was an abuse ... well i only said it cause that was the implication I was taking from what the dms were saying. From an RP standpoint, no matter how good you are at hiding, if you hit an orc from behind and he gives chase, and you run around a wall and hide again ... unless that creature is VERY VERY stupid, he is not going to leave himself open for another attack like that again, heck he prolly wont even let you get out of his sight so that you can "hide" again.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Jul 29, 2005 15:00:30 GMT -5
No prob Quad. I suppose, when I play, I dont picture the PC doing the same swing over and over. I guess I picture the PC swating the orc from behind, then when the enraged Orc chases, perhaps the rogue pivits around the corner, and stabs as the orc comes around. Runs again, this time he might grab a branch and swing up, or throw a handful of dirt into the enemies eyes. Sneak attack from an RP standpoint is a dirty trick of some sort. A fighter might just swing when the orc comes into sight. The rogue's advantage comes from the fact that once he is out of sight, he is skillful at attacking in a way that the enemy is not going to expect. Orcs are not the brightest of creatures, and certainly bears are not either. Being angry and frustraited, its perfectly reasonable to to assume he would come chasing after the tiny rogue hell bent on crushing. Now, it is my sincerest hope and desire that some creature will outsmart this tactic (And often the A.I. does, running the opposite way, or just waiting there to attack with a bow.) Forcing me to react and try something differant. Hell, that sort of need to think on the spot is the absolute best part of D&D.
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Aug 3, 2005 0:44:14 GMT -5
Wow, you really stepped in it Quad. ;D
*runs away laughing*
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Post by marklar on Aug 3, 2005 1:48:29 GMT -5
Soulfien, i just started an evil character not to long ago and already 2 balors i have seen. i haven't seem any as marklar so they were my first balor sighting (btw i love those things!) and well i seem to think a huge flaming beast goes hand in hand with being evil so i'm guessing your rogue was good. but then again a big beast would scare most people.
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Post by soulfien on Aug 3, 2005 8:40:43 GMT -5
She was evil, but still scared She wouldn't even talk to Donavan because of his eyes and don't even get me started on how she reacted to the RDD she met!
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Aug 3, 2005 9:31:51 GMT -5
Wow, you really stepped in it Quad. ;D *runs away laughing* I know I stepped in it, and here I thought this thread was done ... but NNNOOOOO someone had to go and reply again... ;D
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Post by Spooks on Aug 3, 2005 23:50:12 GMT -5
She was evil, but still scared She wouldn't even talk to Donavan because of his eyes and don't even get me started on how she reacted to the RDD she met! Whatever happened to that group? You know, Bellathyra, and all those other high level chars? Did they leave in the wave of people who left when Jacob left?
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Post by soulfien on Aug 4, 2005 16:22:20 GMT -5
I don't know. I was wondering about that as well.
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Post by Keetena on Aug 5, 2005 5:07:48 GMT -5
Some announced that are leaving, others just disapered Bella was the leader iof the Maidens of Hope guild project and was involved with many pcs as well but one day 'vushs' vanished in oblivion. Others, the most were online with less and less frenquency and one day dont returned again, like the famous Radiel (I do think the most will return, but not for long periods) Oters annouced that were leaving for other motivations, like insatisfaction, I don't censor any of the parts involved, we're humans and we aren't perfect , and as well I'm no judge.
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Post by caricaturd on Aug 8, 2005 19:13:02 GMT -5
Hey are we forgetting something? What about archers? Poor buggers have been ignored throughout this whole list. I would love to make an archer who can stand his own in melee combat. I mean, not for the sake of solo runs b/c that would just offset the balance, but i think archers get the shaft pretty often in combat. Again, I realize that archers are perceived as supplementary characters in combat, but they train just as hard as the other classes to get up the ladder. I chose an archer character mainly for rp purposes. Id rather talk my way out of most fights; but it would be nice to be able to back it up with some fire power every now and again. Im currently 8 fighter/1 wiz/2 arc archer and its fun as heck, but to compete with all different sorts of dmg reductions (man do i hate that "weapon ineffective message") as an archer gets annoying. In essence archers in frc become the antithesis to cleric/paladin characters. Awful against undead and poor spell casting despite the "arcane" in arcane archer. Now this is off on a tangent, but ive always wondered if itd be possible to create dif kinds of imbue arrows, not just those fireballs arcane archers shoot. I'd love to have a healing spell on the tip. Nothing says I care like an arrow shaft in the arse.
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