Are all classes created equal?

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

I would like to open a general discussion to how people feel about their classes and how they percieve other classes. I would like to limit this discussion to this server and only player monster scenarios. Group and solo adventuring discussion is welcome, but I would like to focus more on solo.

So why am I opening this discussion? Well it is mostly to get a feel for what people are thinking. For example: I feel like the cleric and the paladin classes are amongst the most powerful on the server.

So let's get to the discussion.
Why do I feel like the cleric is the most powerful class? Because they can get one of the highest AB and the highest AC (that's right jargo, higher than yours! ) on this server, while still maintaining a few spells to kick the crap out of baddies. Now granted this isnt until a bit later in levels, but until then they can hold their own for the most part. Their defensive spells combined with the offensive ones make for the best class.

I think the paladin is second in the running. They have good saves and the highest AB on the server. Granted this is due to the spells they have, but really, only a weapon master in the end is gonna beat them when it comes to the AB without spells. Some of their special abilities besides the spells are nice too .

So let me know how you feel about my a**essment. Maybe you feel like my fighter 9/rogue 8 is better in some way. Let me know your thoughts, and I hope this discussion can lead us to understand the strengths of each class better.

Use of items to even the playing field is welcome.

[Manshin]

Personally, I think a 3 rogue, 6 fighter, 5 weaponmaster is the best class ever. What? Im not bias? Well, ok, that configuration is a bit of an extreme character, and I dont say that in the same way one might disguss Mountain Dew comercials and the dynamics of flying cans and blugeon wounds which result from the unfortunate scenes that dont make the cut. What I mean is, it is a combination which makes for ridiculous strengths and ridiculous weaknesses. While Manshin can deal upwards of 80 damage with one hit and no buffs, even simple spells can take him out of a fight. First level wizards have been known to daze him. However, this weakness to magic is offset a bit in that even with only three rogue levels, he can usually sneak close enough to a wizard to make spellcasting a non issue. Those three rogue levels make any class a whole lot better and more fun to play. Versitality.

[Spooks]

Monk, I fear is middle/bottom of the list at low levels, but int the scheme of things, are middle/topside of the list, IMHO.

At low levels, you are just a mess... starting out with some wierd abilities which help but not much. Toward mid-level youget a bunch of free feats such as KD and Imp. KD. and at higher levels you get enchanted fists, and Spell Resistance.

In the end the monk is a great class, but for anyone who cant seem to lvl past lvl 7... I dont reccomend it >_<

[Jurivancer]

Of course adding Rogue to any warrior class, with the Aurora engines terrible handling of "sneak attacks" gives the war/rogue tremendous ability as they get what appears to be at least one sneak attack a round for incredible damage - even in face to face combat!

But as I am not going to rewrite sneak attack, I'll just have to live with this crazy exploit.

[Manshin]

As a veterin rogue warrior, I can tell you I only get my sneak attacks when I am flanking an enemy, surprising them or when they are knocked down. In head to head combat, I dont get them. (Unless it it's an attack of oppertunity.) All of these are valid reasons for a fighter trained in sneak attacks to use them. Even in PnP I utilize the same circumstances. If any part of the rogue class is flawed, it is the hide in shadows skill.

[MithrilBlade]

Monks are a bit like bards these days with all the crazy classes like weapon masters and the new cleric spells that make them totally ridiculous.

Monks have moderate protection against spells, moderate attack bonus and moderate damage but there are classes the easily beat them in every aspect.

Only two classes I believe are overly lame are paladin and weapon master to the "best weapons" (why do I never see weapon master of whip or like...mace?).

Paladin gets basically best weapon enchantments of the game and they have NO cost of AB, it increases on every level as monks get +16 base attack bonus on lv 20. Their spells make them extremely powerful against any evil aligned monster (which is 98% of them), divine shield boosts their AC easily up with like 6-10 points which is better than a single spell can ever give.

We all know why weapon masters are uber so I doubtly need to even go there.

However the reason why I did not state cleric as the most powerful class is because if you look at DnD clerics they must pick exact domains their gods grant them, some of them can't even wear armor and they CANNOT just rest and get all spells, it requires certain time of day when they pray for them. In NWN most people ignore this and make whatever good clerics of Kelemvor and summon liches to their aid but basically they are always dependant on their gods, if they screw up bye bye spells.

Just some of my trash thoughts.

[manyasone]

Well, in PnP I would say that the classes are all well balanced, but the NWN engine is a bit, eh...

Compare fighter-types and spellcasters. In PnP, spellcasters get a larger amount of spells than in NWN... Unfortunately, due to the fact that its a video game, NWN mages are terribly weak because a large portion of their spells aren't there. Meanwhile, fighters have a pretty decent setup as the NWN engine doesn't hinder their abilities listed in PnP...

The creators of NWN didn't even out the classes very well. They just took what abilites they could from the books and just dropped the abilities they couldn't, leaving the whole thing really unbalanced...

Of course, fixing this would involve... well, it would be damned hard. The game, unlike PnP, has a huge combat focus, so fighter-type classes will always have the advantage.

Wanna see a good video game that gives spellcasters their fair share? The Baldur's Gate series did a decent job. ;D ;D

[kenny26]

clerics are the best by far and i'm not surprised if they can surpass my otherwise uber ac (sniff ).
if they can't hit you they buff and hit you. if you hit them too hard they buff and become impossible to hit and even IF you should hit them they have damage reduction.
if you cast spells on them they cast spell resistance. if they can't take you on in close combat they smite you with spells like flame strike and implotion.
i can't think of anything that could really hurt a cleric unless you catch him by surprise and he hasn't had the chance to buff...

oh and of course, when the rest of us are getting our arses kicked, desperately chucking down wee little healing potions that heal you only just enough to counter the damage you recieve, the cleric only has to go into defensive casting, make one measly concentrate check and viola! full HP with heal...

i think second to the cleric you have your basic strength based weapon master (note the words: strength based, those are the ones causing upwards of 200 damage per hit).

then on third place we have druids, sorcerors, wizards and paladins sharing the stool.

barbarians and rangers probably come in as the second-worst classes for soloing, not so much because they are weak, but rather because so many others can get the job done more easily.

the weakest classes for soloing IMO are the rogue, the monk (until he reaches high levels), and the bard.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

First to address sneak attack. I agree with Manshin. The only time you get sneaks is when the person (and i emphasize person since about 30% of the server is immune to sneaks) is flanked (ie you have to be in a group), knockdown, surprised (in which case you only get 1 sneak assuming none of the rest of the things occur), or if they go flatfooted (drinking a potion mid combat or running away and getting the AoO). So yeah, rogues get A lot of damage with 1 hit, but it is usually just that. Why is there only 1 pure rogue character on the server? Because the class does not offer much by itself.

Now to address monks. I would have to say that these are mid range class. They are below most of the fighter type classes (rangers pallys weapon masters) but I still think they are above pure fighters. Heck they can get the highest AC on the server (barely though). Their damage isnt great, but it can be improved with gloves (as well as their ab)

A wizard ... yes I believe they are quite a bit weaker in terms of player vs. monster at lower levels. Though I think as they get higher in levels, their summons as well as the defensive magics (premonition comes to mind) allow them to be just as strong as the figher types.

I guess before this deteriorates at all (I dont think it has yet) I guess the point of this dialogue should be to eventually come to an agreement to even out the classes? Or is it ok that they aren't quite even? As it is, I see items the only way to remedy this solution, because I agree, hacking the engine is not the best way.

Well here is my verdict (and remember this is in terms of this server) on class rankings (non prestige class of course):

Cleric
Paladin
Druid
Ranger
Monk
Fighter
Barbarian
Rogue
Wizard
Bard
Sorceror

[DM Valkyrie]

But think about this, if all classes were created equal, why get a "well-rounded" party together? It is nice when a group with complimentary skills can get together to go explore .......

And yes, this does draw my attention when I see a nicely balanced party. It piques my curiousity...and if I see good roleplay to go along with the good party, I may even decide to "play" too....

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

The discussion was brought to mind because I was thinking that clerics dont need anyone else. They pop a few points into pick locks, grab another cleric with search skill, and bam, you have a demolition duo capabale of taking on anything in the server. Heck, most of the time you dont even need pick locks or search skill. Granted you are not going to garner dm attention running around soloing (unless it is the kind where a dragon just spawns in front of you) ... but this is mostly a discussion of class strengths and weaknesses. And since there isnt much reward for skills, this is mostly a contest of strength in battle for each class. So I guess the rule of thumb should be, always take a cleric with you where ever you go.

And, not to drag us too much into a side tangent, there comes a time when you have RPed enough that you eventually limit yourself to those you can party with. I know that many characters, whether they are evil are good, probably can only party with a group of people that is pretty constricted (whether it is based on level disparity or alignment). So finding a "well rounded" party for my particular character is nigh impossible. Granted this is my own choosing, as I could approach pally's and say "Hey you wanna help me kill some giants" , but I dont think that is what my character would do.

[DM Richard (Retired)]

All classes have their disadvantages and advantages. Nope they aren't equal any more than an apple and an orange are equal. They are just different. A lot of how powerful a class is depends on several factors.

These being the creature you are fighting, attack style, tactical ability, knowledge of spells (for spell casters), level of the character in each of its classes, alignment and build of the character for that class. With build being attributes, feat choices, skill choices, the whole works.

I'd have to say that there is no correct or incorrect answer to this question in the current form.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

Yes I will agree that a class isn't determined purely by their physical fighting style. Certainly a rogue makes up for his lack of fighting prowess with his skills.

But I think that even taking builds into account and type of monster, I cannot forsee there being a monster that is much easier for a rogue to beat than a cleric (in terms of this server of course). So Rich, (and it is good to see ya ) I propose a challenge: name a particular server monster that a rogue can beat by himself that a cleric cannot. You can assume max hitpoints for both classes, as well as same level (level 16 would be good). As for stats and feats, well that is up to you, but i am sure they do not matter as much.

[DM Richard (Retired)]

"I propose a challenge: name a particular server monster that a rogue can beat by himself that a cleric cannot."


Hey Quad! Yeah, I just got back from a vacation! Good to be back!

I'll have to think hard to find something that can't be beat by the cleric at that high level because I don't play any characters of that high of level. But whatever it is I'm sure a 16th level rogue can set enough traps to slay it pretty easily.

I'll get back to you on that challenge.

*looks up and sees where The Seeker slipped his answer in first*

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

The earliest level at which you can actually set epic traps is level 21, and that is only if you take epic skill focus in it. But this isn't PvP so it's a bit hard to "taunt" the NPC, but they do love to give chase. But if you are saying that with enough traps, I can kill almost anything, then yes, perhaps. But that is also assuming I have infinite gold to make them... which no character has. I was thinking more on relying on standard weapons and items.

[Manshin]

Here is one for you Quad. What about a monster with powerful magical based attacks. A cleric must rush in and attack. A rogue, in the right terrain can attack, dart around a corner before he is targeted and hide again, then repeat. He gets his sneak attack each time he hit and runs his enemy, and gets out of site before the thing can target him with spells. In a toe to toe fight, the classes meant for toe to toe fighting are going to be better... but there are many ways to fight.

[Talus]

I will say if I hadn't traveled with Manshin before I made Kam. Well let's just say, Kam would probably still be 5th lvl or Retired. I learned alot about tactics followin Manshin around with Vashal.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

Ideally yes Manshin, that would work very well. However, there are few spells that would not go off and hit the rogue even before he hid again. And what monster would not chase the rogue and prevent him from getting out of sight? And even more so, there are some monsters that will continue to chase you even if you are hidden or invised. A good tactic, but I've rarely seen it work.

But what about this monster makes it so that the rogue is only capable of killing it and not a cleric?

[soulfien]

once again, people diss rogues

Rogues are actually one of the most powerful classes. Clerics, mages (high level only), and monks (high lvl only) can outdo a rogue, but not much else can.

This is why rogues are my favorite class:

Build a rogue, give him 10 strength, high intel, high dex, and low everything else. Maybe 12 Con. I always opt for 12 Cha for their charming way of dealing with any situation, but that's just RP.

Then get ambidex and two-weapon fighting at lvl 1. (make him human for the extra feat). At lvl 3, give him weapon finess and grab 2 shortswords.

Now you have a PC that can solo easy areas unless they're undead.

At lvl 6, take assassin (which can beat out shadowdancer any day). Now you're well on your way to becoming a solo demon.

Your next feat should be improved initiative. Trust me, it's worth it.

Now, you're on your way to becoming a god.

Grab a couple Intel +2 items to compliment your items that give you more dex and you're a force that cannot be beaten.

How? Because if you built him right, by lvl 12, you should not be wearing armour. Your dex bonus should be too high. Also, as your dex bonus improves so does your attack bonus. It's a useful thing that a lot of people overlook. If you're a rogue using a medium or heavy weapon then it's your own fault you're weak.

Now, grab a missile weapon. Pick up the weakest, most pitiful missile weapon you can get your hands on. That's right- a dart.

With a rogue like this, you can easily paralyze 3 opponents with the assassin's death attack before the others even realize you're there.

And if things get dicy, use a potion of invisibilty or something else that grants charges and escape, heal, and come back.

Ghsotly visiage gets you by any lvl 1 and 0 spells while darkness can cast a blanket of death over your enemies.

Solo the assassin is deadly especially if you know how to use the outside terrain to your advantage. In a group they are even more powerful because you are guarrenteed to be able to get behind your enemies.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

So tell me how a pure rogue kicks butt? And in regards to this server.

[DM Justicar - Creator of FRC]

Just a point of order... please DON'T take assassin at level 6 on FRC. Please remember that we have a rule that states that PrC's are to be taken upon the 10th or higher levels only.

Other than that, I agree with most of what Soulfien said regardng rogues being a powerfrul solo class.

Cheers!

[Booze Hound]

kenny26 said:

barbarians and rangers probably come in as the second-worst classes for soloing, not so much because they are weak, but rather because so many others can get the job done more easily.


*chuckles* as a ranger/barbarian, I can vouch for this. I could have done things differently, and been a lot better soloing, but that isn't my style. my Ranger/rogue/barb combo is a great support character, but I can't beat anything solo! lol

it would be easier if certain things worked like the "go around the corner and hide" tactic, but it rarely ever works for me. that and if I hadn't RPd my wolf being dead *sigh* RP is killing me slowly ;D

and as Quad knows, I know next to nothing about the building of characters to be able to tell you anything about this question, so basicly i am just taking up space here...
gonna shut up now

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

I still disagree tremedously, as isinholds three main places to go between levels 1-5 have nearly 50% of the creatures immune to sneaks (the ruins have constructs as well as the slimes). I remember when I started here, I couldn't even kill the rats because my ac was too low. Only until I took a level of fighter could I stand my own. Thats why I spent soo much time with Vind and thrulia in those early days. I am still not convinced that there is a particular instance in FRC where a rogue can kill something that no other class can. And BTW, I am ignoring prestige classes because any prestige class can add an amazing amount of power to a normal class (ie weapon master, RDD, Palemaster and so on).

[soulfien]

okay so you want lvl 1 powerful solo PC's? Okay, Barbarian.

However, if its the long run you're looking at, rogue.

A pure rogue is lacking, but that's why we have PRC's. Sorry, Justi- forgot about the lvl 10 restriction on prc's

And weren't weaponmasters brought up already? That's why I brought up Assassin.

As far as I know, there are other places than the ruis, well, and catacombs in Isinhold. There is also a forest, a hobgoblin lair, Zhent fighters, gnolls, kobolds, owlbears, etc.. that can keep a rogue busy up into the mid levels.

No lvl 1 rogue is tough. Unless you're a fighter or a barbarian, you're gonna be weak at the start.

But.... that wasn't your original question, was it?

[marklar]

i definatly think the top classes are cleric, monk and fighter then after that wizard. while wizards and monks are harder to start with they seem to mutliply with power in their higher levels. i don't think talking about multi/cross classing because that's no longer compairing equallity between classes is it?

[Manshin]

As for the ol run around the corner and hide trick Quad, I will say only this. At level three and four with Manshin, I was able to kill those orc marauders in droves. While other PCs would charge in and swing away, getting the crap knocked out of them, I would lure an orc to the trees, wait for him to run to me, then hit him with a sneak and run around the otherside of the trees, wait for him and repeat. Slower? Yes. Better? Definatly. Even with ol Korfuji, I would rarley get hit in melle because of this. Often, the enemy would switch weapons or my attack would be an attack of oppertunity. Rarley would he even get a chance to swing by the time I ran out of his "line of sight." This tactic still works at level 14. Though the enemy may not loose you, you will still get your sneak attack, which for a rogue of high level, is a pretty big advantage. Take a hard hitting monster that could kill a cleric toe to toe, now have him chasing the rogue around the terrain, unable to keep line of sight on the sneaky bugger. Especially with improved initiative, that rogue will hit and run the big baddy down to a pint size pile of mush without getting hit more than a few times. This only works in the right terrain however, but, any sensible adventuer who is planning to retire some day would want to choose his battlefields and use the terrain to his advantage.
Personally, I make Manshin do what he would do in real life... minimise the amount of pain he must endure to win a fight. Granted, the ability to carry a thousand healing potions diminishes the need to take every available advantage to reduce the damage you sustain, but RP wise.. your character would not want to catch an axe upside the head weather he could take it or not, right?

Oh, thanks for the compliment Talus... whatever happened to Vashal? I miss him.

[Manshin]

Oh, and as for most powerful classes... I would like to vouch for the Sorcerer. At level 15, Galia, who has an extremely high Charisma, greater spell penatration and the maximize spell feat can toss an Issacs Missle Storm at you that WILL beat any spell resistance you have and knock over 200 some odd HP off you. Not many characters on the server are going to survive that. Dont believe me? Ask Gial. Combine that with Greater Sanctuary, and she can do it twice before you can ever take a swing. None one has 400hp that I know of.

The moral of the story here is, EVERY class is potentially deadly in the right hands. Put me in the shoes of a wizard and I would suck, but someone who "truly" knows what they are doing can beat pretty much any fighter, weapon master, cleric or paladin out there. Then again, someone really gifted with those classes probably has some killer combination too.

[DM Richard (Retired)]

"I am still not convinced that there is a particular instance in FRC where a rogue can kill something that no other class can."



In regards to a rogue being the only class able to kill a creature. I certainly hope we don't have anything like that in FRC. As far as I know we don't have any creature that is only killable by one single class!

[DM Richard (Retired)]

I specialize in mages, rogues, and clerics. They each are very powerful.

[soulfien]

well, to answer that, let me say this:

Go up against a cleric npc 5 levels higher than you.

Fighter runs in, mage buffs up with spells and begins to pummel the fighter.

Mage goes in and thus begins a dual of magic which the mage usually loses.

Cleric goes in and has a hard time, but might come out on top.

Rogue comes in, sneaks up the the cleric, sneak attacks him, hits him with an attack of oppertunity as he tries to cast his buffs, gets another sneak attack, another attack of oppertunity, cleric tries to heal which gets another sneak attack, and cleric dead.

There is your answer.