Metagaming, Immersion, and Realism

[mythosfakir]

Dear Community,

And yeah, I mean all of ya.

I would like to start a thread to discuss these three things and their relation to the server. I'd like this to be a liberal but considerate thread filled with people's opinions on these three things. This is *not* the place for arguments or disagreements. If you want to dispute something someone posts, please do it in pms or start another thread. I just want this to be a free place for everyone to express their opinions so we can get some thought started about some things that I feel are major issues with the server.

So I'll begin.

There is a rule for this server about metagaming. If you do it, you're banned. Now, obviously, we have all at one point in time or another metagamed at least a little - probably something minor that a ban would be a heavy consequence for. However, I know that some players (no names or finger pointing) have metagamed massively important information that their characters could not have, and their metagaming drastically affected the rp of many players. I also know that those players suffered no punishment or consequence for that action (since a few of them continue to show such behavior with impunity).

In my opinion the staff is too nice on this matter. I feel that the fact that players are allowed to do things like this without reprimand only encourages them to do it more. As a player, I find that annoying and sad. The staff here is awesome and they all work very hard, but you guys are just too nice in this instance, in my opinion.

Furthermore, the proliferation of metagaming also begets other rules infractions, it seems, and a lot of players (judging from the forums) seem to have the opinion that the staff is their personal servant or slave. I've seen a lot of in character issues dragged here to the forums and made ooc issues that the dms were forced to get involved with. This ruins immersion and realism for me in the server. It also shows a lack of respect for the people who work so hard to make this place fun. I know it sounds like I'm riding the staff and trying to find fault with them, but I think we as a community of players are often finding ourselves forgetting or breaking the rules because when we do so there seems to be no consequence. And some of us are starting to take the staff for granted.

Moving on, in terms of immersion I'd like to know how important this aspect of the game is for everyone. For me, the reason I chose a rp server over an action server was for the immersion. I like my character's actions to have reactions and I like for those reactions to be realistic and believable. I like to be in a world that draws me in. I don't like a world where death is a novelty that's treated like its nothing, and I don't like a world where foolish or fearless and thoughtless actions don't have repercussions both good and bad. I don't like a world where arguments that are strictly in character are dragged to an out of character body to be resolved, and I don't like a world where what I do doesn't matter.

So for me, immersion is very important, and its excess or lack on this server is completely the responsibility of the players - not the DMs.

Realism ties in with immersion, obviously. The more realistic the server, the more immersive it will be. Lately I've noticed a *lot* on the server that I just don't see as realistic. From clerics who view death as nothing worse than a sprained ankle to town and city governments that allow evil actions and deeds to go unpunished and without harassment. Wizards who pick up a sword after 20-some-odd levels and are all of a sudden a "battlemage" to a lawful good-aligned guild that likely has more nonlawful or nongood members than lawful or good ones.

These three things are community issues that we need to discuss, and I hope through their discussion we can - as a community - make Cormyr an even better place for those who are enjoying it, and make it an enjoyable place for those who aren't. So, let's hear what you all have to say. I'd like the staff as well to post your feelings on this so we can get a true community interface.

Once again, please no arguing or debates here.

EDIT: Posted in this forum because these are roleplaying issues.
EDITEDIT: Upon good advice from wiser individuals than myself, I decided to make it clear that I'm not looking to point anyone out or make anyone upset or feel bad with this post. This is *purely* my *opinions* and feelings, and as such they shouldn't be taken as an attack on any single person or group. If you feel like it's an attack, please consider that this is just one person voicing an opinion.

[summer]

Think really have issue with something should use the resources at hand like the player advocates and such. If the dms give you a decision you do not like or is unfair once again the player advocates. Personal note hate to see anyone banned even for meta gaming unless it was real bad so that applaud the dms since sooner play with a metagamer that hopefully learns from a mistake if that is the case then some dm coming down with an axe over perhaps something minor to most and lose some Frc family member.

People chat in tells ooc all the time suppose, some instances human nature to gossip ...ex. guess what we were fighting a dragon along came Phelazon ..sorry thought he be the least worried his name used....Had a undead army in tow and wiped us all out a whole group of us then stoned the dragon and laughed at us. This just an example. Could look at that as metagaming lets what we got in there ...necromancer...killer....heartless seems...now person just saying what happened cause it was fun or interesting or bragging wow that guy rocked us. It is metagaming looking stuff but take it as hey want tell what happened cause it was fun well by standard breaking a rule. Maybe this player is great role player never gets into trouble and now cause they excited and by rules meta gamed are gone that be total shame. Hence why the dms are there.

Plenty issues arise might not like the outcome but hey just one issue your role play does not hinge on one player or one scenario.

Just some thoughts...
Summer

[eshie]

I think Mythos's opinion isn't hinged on just one player or scenario, either. Nor, I think, is he unhappy with the single ruling of a DM.

I see no harm in the scene that you described, however, if this happened and then Poena, who was not even there, starts telling Ramas all about what happened when she would have no clue other than being told in private tells.. that is wrong.

I do think that metagaming should be punishable and by the rules, it is. I don't know if I'd go so far as to ban someone for it unless it is a blatant habit.

[dirtysloth]

metagaming in many cases is very difficult to prove even with logs and screenshots it comes down to one players word vs the other and in those cases I'm sure the DM team will not ban without sufficient proof

but the metagamer is not always the only part of the problem sometimes its the one who is openly sharing OOC information
ie. sending tells that include IG information (if you told x with a tell that you are a follower of cyric and he uses that against you yes its metagaming but you are the source of the issue)
the biggest contributor to OOC info is this forum where some even have characters listed with their alignment as a signature and others just simply throw random information about their characters into posts that could lead to being metagamed
I think everyone should take into account their own actions in the chain and try to put a stop to it at the source
THIS IS NOT A RULING BY ANYONE WITH ANY SUCH POWER BUT IN MY OPINION no one should post any information about their character that they do not expect to be common knowledge throughout FRC that a simple gather information would reveal, even for a barbarian dwarf

if you are posting an event you have been involved in describe people as your character knows them either by name or description and let the post read as if from the mouth of a street commoner who overheard the tale
many of the veterans already post in a manner such as this

remember every time you give out OOC info your likely to lead to metagaming or a drawn out conversation where everyone tipy toes around it waiting to get the IC knowledge

[Charon's Claw]

My personal opinion, and I think it'd be better if we all didn't look at those little levels on the log in screen.. but..

It's obvious who takes things for the OOC benefits, though not everyone knows the RP behind who has taken what. Personally I see having many, many levels of wizard and suddenly taking a fighter level is lame, just for the benefits, BUT!

That's twenty levels of learning the fighter traits and what not, and with the proper RP behind it and what not it's doable. So long as people RP or at least make an effort to do so with their decisions then all will be well. NWN isn't PnP and it never can be, so training to use a sword is very, very tough w/o the feats. In PnP anyone can pick up anything though with a huge penalty if you aren't proficient with it so while the game engine helps us with a lot of rolls, it is kind of limiting in some aspects.

I had a point somewhere, but yeah... just don't always assume that someone doesn't have RP behind their classes and things, but try to engage the player. If people make examples to the people who come from different backgrounds of RP or gaming things will go smoothly.

Disclaimer: PLEASE DO NOT TELL PEOPLE THINGS OOCLY VIA TELLS OF PRIVATE INFORMATION! IGNORANCE CAN BE BLISS AND IT LESSENS THE CHANCE FOR METAGAMING! IF YOU SEND TELLS WITH PRIVATE INFORMATION DON'T COMPLAIN IF YOU'RE METAGAMED LATER! Action will be taken, but you opened the door.

[iangallowglas]

First: Metagaming:

I'm sure metagaming occurs. I'm also sure the DMs deal with it as best they can. I'm not trying to belittle this issue, but I'm also sure that there are people on the server that accuse people of metagming without any real proof of it as well. They think people shouldn't know what happened, but maybe someone told them about the incident, or maybe someone was following a person invisibly or hiding. Or maybe someone was just guessing. I know that for Seamus (I use Seamus because he is my main character and the character I have spent the most time playing), when he sees someone in black or in a hood or a mask, he assumes they are part of one of three groups, Cyrists, Banites, or Necromancers (necromancers covering all the other bad guys). He doesn't need proof, in fact he continues to believe that until it is proven to him that they are not. He also believes elves are snobs, dwarves are drunks, and half-orcs are baby eaters until shown otherwise. It's called bigotry, it's alive and well in Cormyr and really I believe it should be. Seamus has the opposite feeling when it comes to friends, they can do no wrong, and will not accept talk otherwise unless he is shown proof.

My only suggestion with regards to metagmaing is that if you don't want something known, don't tell anyone, and don't write about it on the forums. I would also say talk to the people involved before you bring things to a DM or accuse someone of metagaming, and do it in tells not on the general talk channel. Talking in tells between players can help straighten things out much easier than involving a DM. Only go to Dms as a last resort. Also, don't let the things that happen negatively to your character get you worked up, nothing that happens here is worth getting riled up over (something I'm trying to work on myself).

Second: Immersion

I like an immersive environment. I like the choices of my character to impact others, and I like others choices to impact my characters. I also understand that what's believable to me might not be believable for someone else. We don't know each others characters for the most part except for the few we travel with routinely. So we generally have no idea of what the motivation of these characters is, so to say that their actions are unbelievable is really one player forcing their opinions and character concept on another player, which is something we need to do less of here. For example, I find that planning a characters build is not immersive. To me after the first few levels, the characters choice of skills and feats, and even classes should be dependant upon the things that happen to him in his journey on FRC. Others have an idea of what they want their character to be and predetermine the classes, feats and skills they will have. We just need to be cognizant that what we believe is immersive and believable, may not mean the same to other people and their characters. I also find that going to several dungeons in the same day breaks immersion, but I've come to realize as well that people come here to relax and play, and some only have so much time and want to get the most out of it.

Three- Realism
I'll start by saying I don't think Anime elves are realistic, and I see alot of them on the server. However people are free to bring their favorite Anime characters to life here on the server if they choose to. (ok, off that soapbox, but I really just don't like Anime). As far as mages taking levels in fighter when they get epic or near epic; have you journeyed with the character? Do you know what caused him to learn to fight? If you never looked at the level board on entrance to this game would you even know that these people are Battlemages. Seamus travels with a mage that can fight even though she has no levels in fighter. She Rp'd a lot of training with a warrior and a Paladin to learn how to fight, enough that I would not have any kind of issue with her taking a fighter level or several. To me this seems like an OOC issue that is being brought in-game. One more reason I would like to get rid of the level board on entrance to the game, if it is even possible.

With reference to the Lawfull guild having non-lawfull and non-good people in it. I think this is once again taking an OOC consideration and bringing it in-game. Who is to say what alignment people are in the guild, and even more importantly, what does alignment have to to with anything in a guild. If the guild has rules and expectations of it's members that they should follow and the disposition of the character doesn't allow them to function in the guild, then they will be removed from the guild. In the case of the Royal Corp, I know this has happened on a couple different occasions. In the case of Seamus, he was Chaotic when he joined the Corp. He disobeyed some orders and was publicly dressed down by the steel regent herself. But over time his actions have become more and more lawfull as he falls into line with what the Corp wants and expects, of first it's enlisted members, and then it's officers. As a result of his actions, our DM team has shifted his alignment to Neutral Good. I guess what I'm trying to say once again is that realism is in the eye of the beholder and what one person may find realistic, another may not. It's best to worry about our own characters and our own roleplay, and let other people (and the DMs) worry about others roleplay.

[ritefoot]

Way I see it a server is filled with PCs.
There is almost no NPC RP. At least not at the same level or volume.
This issue has come up on every server I have ever been on and to save 1000s of posts it all comes down to this.

RP is its own reward.

Extremes of action and RP are what make great servers. Thing you will find is that EVERYONE on here thinks they are the right extreme.

DMs should govern and for what I have seen they do. First through behind the seen talk with each other and then they tend to take people aside.

I have seen people disciplined and personally I have been questioned. (In the end just to be clear about the oddities)

I would hope people would add their extreme to the whole and leave the judging of others to the DMs.

Report to the DMs if you see something but have faith in them to do their job. This place would not be so big or have run so long by accident.

You don't like someone’s play... you will notice this is one big sand box. Others will see it your way and that person will be seeing less of what you enjoy.

I once saw this issue rip a server apart and the end result was that the RPers talked all day winning huge contacts and the action guys were tanks. Not nice but tough. Both Happy!

There is still RP in all this.

When it was split the tea and cookies types ran out of things to talk about and the Action guys lost content. Got dull and just fizzled.

Log in, RP, and be most excellent to each other. Remember there are people behind those PCs and they put in as much as you do.

You might not know why, and if you did you might not agree but that is why PCs are more fun than NPCs. PCs do not always take the easy path or accept a great offer. That is what I like about it.

Love you all.

Rite.

[summer]

Understand how one would look at say monk who has 20 levels monk then one of say assassin or rogue or whatever but also the persons choice. When satrted as monk thought yeah be nice to sneak attack or use umd or basically get some skills but thats not my character... had choice of ranger but monk then all a sudden nature walker made personal choice to say nope that never fit my style and dismissed it. But flip coin lets be honest roleplay plays very very little part in classes and how select a level. Rdd arent picked cause they just roleplay dynamo and fun to experience there whole topic on that.

Never had problem with classes picked its my own view suppose that some do not go together but can make any roleplay reason why you can. I am a level 20 mage now want to take cleric how that work together gone religious? Well someone somewhere say after years of studies of books decided that true way to honest life is path of religion. Then after 10 levels well realized wasnt cut out for it, turned to another faith.

The game lets you be diverse and so people are and not going to change no different then telling someone can not cross class skills cause who ever heard of a druid that can make armour? Someone somewhere tell you why they can and do. how the game mechanics works. Yes some have indepth roleplay why and valid and such never see cleric with 6 cha or 8 wisdom there reason cause strive to be best at what we got suppose. Although rare there are few people think that makes game challenging believe it or not.

Enjoy your own character sheet and way set it up ...everyone has there ways if not be random selector and be lucky get whatever randomly was there .....now that might be an idea? Randomly roll against feat table and take whatever gives you ...funny to see suppose.

Summer

[summer]

Forgot start of why wrote something... Have no clue about incident of the metagaming and *crosses fingers * have little to no problem in that area so have little first hand experience of what as whole think were all suppose to be looking for.

Then again I am a mute so not much said here

Summer

[anerwyn]

Honestly I agree a lot with seamus on this one. The only difference is Nadie thinks everyone is good until proven otherwise.

when it comes to metagaming I tend to think about it this way. If I get information I look at it and ask "Have I heard or seen this IC before?" "Is this something that player would want known?"....etc. I ask myself a few questions like the above.

I'm going to assume the evil cyrican who is posting in the forums isn't going to want everyone and their dog to know this IC. It's just counter to common sense to think that the evil bad guys are going to run about shouting their god's name in the middle of a town where their religion is banned. (though I have heard of this happening before, but I consider this the exception not the rule.)

When it comes to tells, if I see green text I automatically assume it's OOC unless the tell has something to indicate otherwise. Such as: *A note arrives for nadie*, *A messenger hands nadie a note*,. etc.

Also if I see yellow I assume it's supposed to be a local thing. I see a shout that says something about valkur's roar and Nadie happens to be in eveningstar I don't see a reason behind her knowing of the incident. I don't even head to Valkur's Roar unless I was going there already. This philosophy has kept me out of events I heard were fun, but it's simply the nature of the beast.

Immersion is an important aspect of an RP server but, as seamus said, not everyone's idea of immersion is the same. Who am I to cast judgment on anyone Else's RP when mine isn't perfect? It's not my job to judge another player's RP bad or good therefore I take it all IC and if Nadie thinks the character is an idiot she avoids them if she thinks they are worth while she sticks around.

Now Realism, this is a two edged sword really. Once again every ones' idea of realism is a little different and it's not our jobs to point out another person's fallible "Realism" when we probably have those who feel the same of us. Realism has always been a debated issue on every server I've been on but one must consider the facts of a fantasy setting with magic and so forth.

There are clerics who have raise dead and resurrection. Being able to raise someone from the dead makes death not as scary by the very nature of such a spell. Of course your adventurers with the powerful raising clerics aren't going to take death as seriously as one would normally take death. This is because of the fact that death is no longer a permanent end.

As I mentioned in other posts, "use common sense and take in to consideration the setting". I'm not trying to point fingers or anything here, I'm simply stating a good rule of thumb that has served me well in 20 years of gaming.

[EDM Entori]

Mar 5, 2010 2:30:18 GMT -5 anerwyn said:

Honestly I agree a lot with seamus on this one. The only difference is Nadie thinks everyone is good until proven otherwise.

when it comes to metagaming I tend to think about it this way. If I get information I look at it and ask "Have I heard or seen this IC before?" "Is this something that player would want known?"....etc. I ask myself a few questions like the above.

I'm going to assume the evil cyrican who is posting in the forums isn't going to want everyone and their dog to know this IC. It's just counter to common sense to think that the evil bad guys are going to run about shouting their god's name in the middle of a town where their religion is banned. (though I have heard of this happening before, but I consider this the exception not the rule.)

When it comes to tells, if I see green text I automatically assume it's OOC unless the tell has something to indicate otherwise. Such as: *A note arrives for nadie*, *A messenger hands nadie a note*,. etc.

Also if I see yellow I assume it's supposed to be a local thing. I see a shout that says something about valkur's roar and Nadie happens to be in eveningstar I don't see a reason behind her knowing of the incident. I don't even head to Valkur's Roar unless I was going there already. This philosophy has kept me out of events I heard were fun, but it's simply the nature of the beast.

Immersion is an important aspect of an RP server but, as seamus said, not everyone's idea of immersion is the same. Who am I to cast judgment on anyone Else's RP when mine isn't perfect? It's not my job to judge another player's RP bad or good therefore I take it all IC and if Nadie thinks the character is an idiot she avoids them if she thinks they are worth while she sticks around.

Now Realism, this is a two edged sword really. Once again every ones' idea of realism is a little different and it's not our jobs to point out another person's fallible "Realism" when we probably have those who feel the same of us. Realism has always been a debated issue on every server I've been on but one must consider the facts of a fantasy setting with magic and so forth.

There are clerics who have raise dead and resurrection. Being able to raise someone from the dead makes death not as scary by the very nature of such a spell. Of course your adventurers with the powerful raising clerics aren't going to take death as seriously as one would normally take death. This is because of the fact that death is no longer a permanent end.

As I mentioned in other posts, "use common sense and take in to consideration the setting". I'm not trying to point fingers or anything here, I'm simply stating a good rule of thumb that has served me well in 20 years of gaming.

my only comment is that raise dead is not always suppose to work..

sometimes you need ressurection, or true ressurection.

Beyond that sometimes a spirit is already taken beyond the ability needed to come back..

pc's should reflect that

[anerwyn]

Mar 5, 2010 2:40:55 GMT -5 EDM Entori said:

my only comment is that raise dead is not always suppose to work..

sometimes you need ressurection, or true ressurection.

Beyond that sometimes a spirit is already taken beyond the ability needed to come back..

pc's should reflect that

A very good point, I did use "raising clerics" in a very broad sense of the idea. but you are correct about needing res, or true res as well. Also very correct about the spirit being beyond the abilities idea.

I was merely stating that death would be taken less seriously. A PC should have a healthy fear of death, but this would be weakened by the raising, ressing. true ressing thing.

It's not entirely an OOC consideration when people play without a suitably large fear of death due to death no longer being a, consistently, permanent thing. This idea was the point I was trying to get across. I don't think it would be totally metagaming using this knowledge IC, if there was previous RP to back this assessment.

I hope that clarifies my point a little.

[vulpex]

Now, issue with death. On a middle earth theme server i play it is handled rather well with assumption death comes only with story if even so. Raise is just critical healing and death unconsciouness.
It works in setting where real magic is meant to be scarce. DnD has its divine intervention system hardcoded, but that becomes tricky to take logically with high levels, be it here or PnP.
Not saying we should assume such stance, but it did take away the triviality of danger and dying, ironically just by removing it from the equation
No need to be somekind of Super Lazarus with hundreds of death experiences.
Only way i can see it work for myself is to just ignore deaths that have no relation to rp at hand.

[EDM Entori]

Mar 5, 2010 5:40:28 GMT -5 anerwyn said:

Mar 5, 2010 2:40:55 GMT -5 EDM Entori said:

my only comment is that raise dead is not always suppose to work..

sometimes you need ressurection, or true ressurection.

Beyond that sometimes a spirit is already taken beyond the ability needed to come back..

pc's should reflect that

A very good point, I did use "raising clerics" in a very broad sense of the idea. but you are correct about needing res, or true res as well. Also very correct about the spirit being beyond the abilities idea.

I was merely stating that death would be taken less seriously. A PC should have a healthy fear of death, but this would be weakened by the raising, ressing. true ressing thing.

It's not entirely an OOC consideration when people play without a suitably large fear of death due to death no longer being a, consistently, permanent thing. This idea was the point I was trying to get across. I don't think it would be totally metagaming using this knowledge IC, if there was previous RP to back this assessment.

I hope that clarifies my point a little.

yeah and I would love to see raise and Ressurection have limits as well.. just to get that healthy dose of fear back into it.

or a minor XP loss with raise dead, and none with ressurection... or say it would eat up a flawless gem holy to ones god.

which may be hard to find but may not be. like flawless moonstones.. flawless blue quartz etc.

I would suggest a coin gp cost.. but thats going too far.

[828stingstingneo]

Metagaming: I feel that only malicious metagaming should be punished, ie. OOC information that is used purposely to give yourself an advantage or another player a disadvantage. The reason is that it is way too easy to make metagaming mistakes. Maybe you innocently forgot which of your characters heard something. Maybe you were browsing the forum for background information about the setting and didn't realize that a tidbit wouldn't have been common knowledge. I think most metagaming issues can easily be cleared up with an OOC discussion between players in tells and, if necessary, a little backtracking: "//I didn't really say that." I also feel metagaming should be okay when you are using it to avoid a player you don't get along with. I don't mean when your friend's good character kills your evil character; I mean when someone causes problems for you OOCly. If you don't get along OOCly then just as you would avoid each other in real life, I think it should be okay to avoid each others' characters (even ones who have never met and have no IC reason to avoid each other). Yes, it's a shame when this happens, but it does happen because we are all real people behind our characters and personalities can clash.

Immersion and Realism: I'm not sure what the difference is. For me, this is first and foremost a game. I come here to have fun. That takes a back seat, for me, even to realism. If something is silly and fun, I will appreciate it even if it isn't exactly realistic. I also think respect for other people's playing styles takes priority here. Some people prefer straight-forward characters with little background other than that they are "adventurers." Others enter this fantasy world to enjoy their creative (often dramatic) backstories. Either extreme may seem unrealistic to the other, but I think as long as rules are followed and the campaign setting considered as much as possible both kinds of players can fit in here. I think the have-fun-but-not-at-the-expense-of-others rule is first for a reason, too. Some people seem to like influencing or being influenced by other people's characters more than others. Some people like PvP more than others. It's more considerate to do choose a less realistic reaction for your character if you think your character's most realistic reaction could ruin someone else's fun.

Classes Chosen: I'm not sure what category this fits under, so I made it its own. I think it makes sense for a high level single class character to eventually branch out. To me, attaining the maximum of pre-epic levels is basically becoming an expert in that class. You can at that point choose to push the bounds of the class, taking time and effort to learn to do more than your class is normally capable of (Epic Feats) or you can choose to adopt a new interest to pursue. Some classes get their Epic Feats as seldomly as every four levels. I can see how a character might decide that the time and investment required to improve in that direction is not worthwhile and that learning a whole new skill set would be more fulfilling. I think it's true players might choose their characters' classes to improve power and survivability, but I think it's just as reasonable to assume that the characters also try to make choices in life that would benefit them. I also think it's okay to think about your character's build ahead of time. Some people plan their futures more than others; maybe some characters do so, too. Thinking about build early can help you RP your character's growth from the beginning. If RP changes your character in some way, you can always change the build at that point just as your character can change his plans.