Jurivancer
Old School
Retired FRC DM
Thats Right - Your Next
Posts: 386
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Post by Jurivancer on Jun 16, 2005 12:02:24 GMT -5
I have heard lately of some "natural enemies" being always hostile - Paladins and BG's (and similar such circumstances) and players who "hate" each other.
And while I have no problem with this, please keep in mind that this is just a tool to *aid* RP not to avoid or overshadow the RP. Even if you are all flagging each other hostile, you can still speak to each other on occasion, even if its just an RP argument - it is not generally meant to mean "you will be forced to fight each other upon site of each other (although that has been known to happen on occasion)". If it drags down to just another tool for the street brawl, it will do nothing but start pushing some players away. If people have the fight and know their roles, then all is good. But if you use these actions to try an bring other PC's into the world with you - by wanting to interact with them, good or evil, then please use it wisely.
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Post by manyasone on Jul 13, 2005 23:17:59 GMT -5
Melkroth's got quite a few enemies, but as long as it is roleplayed and with reason, then I've got no problem with full PvP...
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Elaugzar
New Member
Player Of: Le'lorinel Imytholyn, 'Math' Mathandrin Nezzen, Inokichi Matsumura, Siriomir Iskandur
Posts: 45
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Post by Elaugzar on Sept 15, 2005 9:35:23 GMT -5
I like the idea of full PvP... it adds a realistic feeling. It must remain RPed though.
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Sept 30, 2005 11:19:52 GMT -5
I would like to re-open this discussion a bit in light of recent PvP events. I want to re-enforce the rule that all parties MUST FLAG ONE ANOTHER PvP HOSTILE PRIOR TO INITIATING ATTACKS.
This is a very important rule to follow as it legitimizes the event. Also, if you kill another PC you should expect that their known associates are going to be "gunning" for you. This should not remove the responsibility from anyone to flag another player hostile before engaging in PvP.
One thing I would like to discuss... are there instances where PvP should just be implied? For example, say you are a Silver Shield and run into a horde of Sharites... if it were within city limits you might back away cautiously and wait for a better opportunity. If the conditions were right however (being in the wilderness, or even worse one of their lairs) should PvP ensue without a flag?
I really would like to start a dialogue on this so everyone is nice a crystal clear on the PRIVELEDGE of PvP on FRC.
Cheers!
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Post by Talus on Sept 30, 2005 11:46:24 GMT -5
Well I am somewhat slanted toward flagging as late as possible. Why, you ask. I play a sneak, that is why. And the advantages of playing a sneak are taken away if someone has warning, and buffs up or casts truesight, because they have been flagged. I also like the idea of sneak attacks coming at me with no warning. But yes I do think you should flag before the attack. To help out those poor casts with there spells. I don't know I have not been invovled in to many PvP situations myself. And yes if there is a chance encounter. Well I would think good RP should dictate your actions at that point.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Sept 30, 2005 12:02:37 GMT -5
I am 100% with Talus. Also, some players, through past RP should know when someone is gunning for them. I mean, really, every Banite on the server knows that Manshin is out for them, and likewise, he is aware that they are after him. It's not like after you RP catch someones friends and torture them to death, you shouldnt expect them to be after you as Justicar stated. As for the flagging. I expect we should set to hostile right off, because flagging just before a fight completely ruins the surprise. Also, in the excitment right before the attack, it's easy to forget to press dislike when moving in to strike. I wont bother reiterating what Talus Deva just said, but I think that sums it up. I personally enjoy the suspence of not knowing if I am hunted or not. Last thing I want is a little message warning me before the attack comes.
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Sept 30, 2005 12:24:48 GMT -5
The rule as stated is that PvP must be flagged at least a zone ahead of an impending attack. If players discover one another in the same zone, this is where the grey area sets in. What are our feelings on this?
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Post by thogrimur on Sept 30, 2005 12:31:58 GMT -5
I don't mind the last minute flag if the RP has led up to it.
But then I am a pretty amicable guy. As long as scenes are Rp'd out I am ok with just about anything.
The only things I mind are:
A) metagaming inactive NPC guards (any inactive Npc for that matter, but guards in particular)...and...
B) //OOC chatter.
But that is kinda getting off topic! ;D
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henny
Proven Member
No Comparison. Period.
Posts: 218
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Post by henny on Sept 30, 2005 12:36:38 GMT -5
I think the flagging rule is essential. If we start leaving it open to interpretaton of when PVP is implied we will be arguing and wasting DM's times. Sure it hurts the sneak attack people. But someone has to make the choice. Make it fair for sneak attacks or allow general warfare. The way I'm seeing it .. if we go with out flags, there had better be RP. Which kills the sneak attack advantage anyways. If there is no flagging and no RPing, well then all Banites on the server will line up south of Isinhold and PK every single person that comes out. Game over. In my wanderings I tried out those full pvp servers. Every single one was, in my opinion(as I mentioned to a few people last night) a remake of the highlander series. A little story, but mostly "there can be only one" It came down to one all powerful fighter basicly 'winning' cause he could kill everyone. And would. I for one want to RP. And though because of my PC's affiliation, I can be attacked on sight and if the implied PVP kicks in, I don't have to be flagged at all. WOW! Wheres the RP in that? After I'm dead maybe if I'm lucky they'll RP over my dead corpse, though because I'm dead I get no chance to contribute to the RP? That would make me a NPC, right? I'm ready to make a paladin, cause I want to RP, not be ceaselessly attacked on sight by every good aligned character on the server. Or perhaps I'm just crazy. Anyways what do you think? I really would like what I've said disected so that I can gain a better understanding of the "big picture". Thanks Sean
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Post by DM Grizwald on Sept 30, 2005 12:37:33 GMT -5
Im a fan of putting serious enemies hostile right off the bat.
for example: padrin's never really hated anyone but chril until now. he had chril on dislike right of the bat and i know honess did the same. but now probably anyone that was in that room, sharpening their knuckles on his face, will probably get a hostile right away
is this alright?
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Post by DM Grizwald on Sept 30, 2005 12:38:41 GMT -5
this also helps when you do decide to sneak up. they know there hostile but you may or may not attack them that day. you could be in another world or right beside them, they wouldnt know...dun dun dun
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Post by Grozer on Sept 30, 2005 12:38:42 GMT -5
Well I am going on record as saying I have no problem with PvP being implied, hell I know it is. I have been attacked twice in recent months without it and I am not complaining. I realized a Priest of Bane is a moving target. Enough said. As far as the flag, some of us need it. I am not quick enough to move to attack mode when someone is not hostile.. plus some spells are not as effective without it, i.e. summons... basically I dont do PvP well *shrugs* thats my problem I guess, so no comment necessary. It's not like after you RP catch someones friends and torture them to death, you shouldnt expect them to be after you as Justicar stated. I am assuming Padrin revealed this since there would be no other way for you to know. In fact he escape before the worst was done, so I am guessing the "delivery" to Meriss gave away the ending. I dont know why I bring it up... I guess because I really didnt want to do what happened, seriously... but my point is I get a little concerned about how the details may have gotten out... there were several people involved and the only 2 or 3 Padrin may have known were Ranan, Vis and Tenchi... so how Marcus or Louis were marked is unknown to me... wrong place wrong time I guess... I took some pics from the event but decided against posting them... OK I'll stop hijacking the thread... Justi has some good points and I can tell you I am taking a hard look at what we did as a group in the last couple of days. I can only influence my "gang", for lack of a better word, but we are talking amougst ourselves.
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Post by Talus on Sept 30, 2005 12:39:10 GMT -5
I guess my feeling is that if you start to fight just upon seeing each other. Then you should be flagged from the moment you log on to the server. That way there is no mistake that you are mortal enemies and will attack on sight. The gray area to me is what if RP leads to a fight. One that neither party was expecting. But that is where the RP went.
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henny
Proven Member
No Comparison. Period.
Posts: 218
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Post by henny on Sept 30, 2005 12:43:45 GMT -5
Oh and Padrin, thank you for doing the flag as soon as you log thing. It doesmake me feel like my character is evil and that there is danger around every corner for him.. Too bad there none of the easy spoils for evil like there is in the real world! But again, thank you .. it improved the whole mood of the gae for me, IMHO. Even if I was locked in the dark temple with no DMs on or any players that could get me out.. Sighs... ;D
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Post by Grozer on Sept 30, 2005 13:00:01 GMT -5
I for one want to RP. And though because of my PC's affiliation, I can be attacked on sight and if the implied PVP kicks in, I don't have to be flagged at all. WOW! Wheres the RP in that? After I'm dead maybe if I'm lucky they'll RP over my dead corpse, though because I'm dead I get no chance to contribute to the RP? That would make me a NPC, right? I'm ready to make a paladin, cause I want to RP, not be ceaselessly attacked on sight by every good aligned character on the server. Or perhaps I'm just crazy. Actually Sean you are not crazy... I am so close too. But I think we some common agreement and understanding things can be improved. Justi wants that too.. we just need to think this through and come up with something that works and makes sense. Where would the intrigue and suspense be if we all played good characters? Maybe I am wrong... Anyway, look at it this way, it doesnt have to be like this... Ranan was level 15 and playing on this sever for a long time before someone actually found out who and what he was. Evil is not always about random killings, overt acts and killing everyone in your way... sorry I dont like the stereotypical methods. We'll talk more, I promise. I am not ready to give up Ranan just yet.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Sept 30, 2005 13:06:05 GMT -5
Yes, Manshin spoke at length to Padrin for all the details before we ever went trolling for Banites. Also, we werent exactly an overwhelming force. It was a 14 and a 15 vs. two 16's and a lower level. Surprise was the only thing that allowed us to win. HOWEVER. In our search, we honestly did not know where they were. We came across them by chance and attacked. In the excitment, I forgot to flag them! Normally, as enemies, we flag each other right away, but I didnt think of it this time, so that led to me forgetting about it before I attacked. Ouch. I know.. what a jerk. I am really sorry for that. What can I say... I was into it. On the bright side, they all got to live instead of having to respawn and pretend to forget everything.
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Sept 30, 2005 13:07:19 GMT -5
The main reason for this discourse is so that good and evil players can both have fair rules for PvP. Yes, Cormyr is a good land, but it also allows evil PC's. Other than declaring "open season" on evil players, which would be highly unrealistic given the way "the world" really works, I would like us all to engage in a meaningful conversation about this. I feel we have a good start here, and am very glad we are discussing it. Evil is often where you find it... what if druids suddenly declared every butcher in the realm evil and started killing them on sight... wouldn't this also be just another evil act? Maybe a very convoluted example, but we have to realise that not everytning is black and white... just because a player is evil doesn't always mean they would be killed on sight. * Oh, same goes for evil players... they have to understand that if they go around killing everything that moves, there would soon be lynch mobs roaming the countryside!
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Post by Talus on Sept 30, 2005 13:40:44 GMT -5
Well I think we need more insult throwing ;D A well thrown insult can do more damage than a sword thrust. I don't know me and Chril (your guess on who was good and who was evil) had a number of encounters and only two ended in PvP. But there does come a point where there is no option. But in town or with witnesses near by(ie) Npc's gaurds, farmers...whatever. It should be extreme situation to warrant blows.
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Post by thogrimur on Sept 30, 2005 13:43:05 GMT -5
Good discourse - I think that if people use common sense and act maturely there would be no problems. *sighs* Oh if it were such a perfect world. My take: You cannot flag someone as hostile a screen away if you JUST encountered them along the road. It isn't THAT difficult to see when a situation is leading towards a PvP encounter. I too have had enemies that get the dislike from the moment I log in, and that is a fun tension to play with, never knowing if tonight is going to be the night that the confrontation happens. But if I see you on the road and the ensuing RP is leading towards a fight...I am not going to run a screen away and flag you to hostile and then come running back. Cuz that is silly. If I get sneak attacked out of the blue, I am ok with that too, although I am expecting that there will be some RP after the fact...I would prefer the RP first...but whatever...as long as there is RP involved. That's my take. Take it or leave it! (edit - I am under the impression that fighting is illegal inside city limits...I expect that if you are caught fighting there you should expect to be arrested, which was my initial off topic beef about metagaming inactive Npc's.)
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Post by kenny26 on Sept 30, 2005 14:59:33 GMT -5
i for one never really obeyed the rule aboht flagging people hostile an area away... there are several very good reasons for this: 1) it's just rediculous asking players to flag each other one area in advance. you're asking them to be psychic, predicting that in the next area, i'm gonna find my arch enemy... if i ever flag anyone, i do it after visually locating them. 2) i always RP an encounter. this means, jargo will appear before you out in the open, throwing insults and getting ready for the ensuing fight while you're watching him. this again is for RP reasons. jargo will fight a fair fight if he can, and won't sneak up on you. 3) i know from experience that having an enemy you attack on sight is just boring in the long run. on my previous fave server, my sorceress had fought this mage repeatively, but always there would be roleplay to open up the fight. then one night, i got flagged hostile the moment my enemy logged in, and i asked why. "our chars should be killing each other on sight by now..." after that i never exchanged a word with the mage. it was just a matter of running around with true seeing constantly active, trying to see the other player first and casting some nasty spell to finish him off before the fight even started... so i'm against killing each other on sight. i can't predict when i will run into an enemy, so i won't flag you an area in advance... i might remember to flag you before i attack, well after we've exchanged words and gotten ready for some PvP action. my only rule of thumb is roleplay. if i see you and determine that you're my enemy, jargo is gonna badmouth you for a minute first, before i attack which is a fair warning. i never had a rogue sneak attack me without warning (i never PvP'ed any rogue who would try either... ), and even if it were to happen, my uncanny dodge would protect me. so i can't really comment on the sneak attack PvP thingy... anyhow, the bottom line is, i never enter PvP with you without a fair warning, mainly because that's the only way my char will ever fight (the duelist part of jargo, man to man, about honor yada-yada-yada... ).
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Sept 30, 2005 15:11:10 GMT -5
i for one never really obeyed the rule aboht flagging people hostile an area away... there are several very good reasons for this: 1) it's just rediculous asking players to flag each other one area in advance. you're asking them to be psychic, predicting that in the next area, i'm gonna find my arch enemy... if i ever flag anyone, i do it after visually locating them. 2) i always RP an encounter. this means, jargo will appear before you out in the open, throwing insults and getting ready for the ensuing fight while you're watching him. this again is for RP reasons. jargo will fight a fair fight if he can, and won't sneak up on you. 3) i know from experience that having an enemy you attack on sight is just boring in the long run. on my previous fave server, my sorceress had fought this mage repeatively, but always there would be roleplay to open up the fight. then one night, i got flagged hostile the moment my enemy logged in, and i asked why. "our chars should be killing each other on sight by now..." after that i never exchanged a word with the mage. it was just a matter of running around with true seeing constantly active, trying to see the other player first and casting some nasty spell to finish him off before the fight even started... so i'm against killing each other on sight. i can't predict when i will run into an enemy, so i won't flag you an area in advance... i might remember to flag you before i attack, well after we've exchanged words and gotten ready for some PvP action. my only rule of thumb is roleplay. if i see you and determine that you're my enemy, jargo is gonna badmouth you for a minute first, before i attack which is a fair warning. i never had a rogue sneak attack me without warning (i never PvP'ed any rogue who would try either... ), and even if it were to happen, my uncanny dodge would protect me. so i can't really comment on the sneak attack PvP thingy... anyhow, the bottom line is, i never enter PvP with you without a fair warning, mainly because that's the only way my char will ever fight (the duelist part of jargo, man to man, about honor yada-yada-yada... ). Either way you must obey the rules as posted. It is not about your character (or you) being psychic, it is about having a uniform standard that affects all players involved. But your aurgument seems to double over on itself. You don't want to flag hostile upon entry, but you also don't want to kill on sight? How can we (the DM team) keep it fair and equitable then? I guess my main point here is that the rules MUST be followed by EVERYONE... there is no issue of choice, or decision here. It has to be this way if we are going to allow PvP. I will also restate that I think it is probably best to flag anyone you intend on fighting, or think you may fight that particular session. But, that is also why we are having this discussion. Cheers!
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Post by kenny26 on Sept 30, 2005 15:16:42 GMT -5
the point of my thread was that i always offer a warning that PvP is going to take place but i won't put my enemy on hostile before i see him because i never plan these encounters in advance.
i use roleplaying to warn the opponent(s), and flag them hostile at some point during the encounter, but well before actually attacking, giving the other player plenty of time to back down if he doesn't want to fight me for any reason. if there's something wrong with this, then i don't know what to do.
since i never plan on PvP in advance, and i won't kill your character on sight, this is the only way i can engage in PvP with anyone...
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Post by Grozer on Sept 30, 2005 15:30:37 GMT -5
Going on record here that I will nevere flag someone as soon as I log. Why? Obviously Ranan has a ton of enemies, however as a player I will do my best to avoid the PvP when encountered specifically because of everything said here. If an encoutered occured I would RP it first then if it led to a fight I could not get away from I would flag ahead of time. I guess telling everyone this fact gives most an advantage since they know Ranan will try to find a way out but... *shrugs* The other thing is I never have to flag anyone when I log since so many of you are so good about greeting me with that wonderful dislike message when I log! ;D Love you too!
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Post by Talus on Sept 30, 2005 15:50:13 GMT -5
Alright this RP before fight is all well and good for a stand up honor bound fighter. But what about assasins or those that need the element of surprise. Just because someone suddenly flags you doesn't mean the RP invovled before hand invovled you. It could be you are a hit. Or something you said days before. Not all RP has to be immediatly before hand. And the rules should reflect that in some way. I think though as long as you flag before you attack it should be ok. Not an area before hand.
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Post by Grozer on Sept 30, 2005 16:13:08 GMT -5
Alright this RP before fight is all well and good for a stand up honor bound fighter. But what about assasins or those that need the element of surprise. Just because someone suddenly flags you doesn't mean the RP invovled before hand invovled you. It could be you are a hit. Or something you said days before. Not all RP has to be immediatly before hand. And the rules should reflect that in some way. I think though as long as you flag before you attack it should be ok. Not an area before hand. I understand it from the assasin point of view and am cool with it. I meant for me, I wouldn't flag someone until there was no other option. If you put on a hit on Ranan, go ahead and wait, he is already expecting it.
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Post by Talus on Sept 30, 2005 16:18:56 GMT -5
Sorry that was meant more as a general statement not directed at anyone in particular
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Post by DM Grizwald on Sept 30, 2005 16:45:29 GMT -5
-what if druids suddenly declared every butcher in the realm evil and started killing them on sight...
hey good idea....
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Post by Talus on Sept 30, 2005 18:27:46 GMT -5
OK after rereading this thread some I would like to clarify. I am not for open season or anything. I just don't want to see a rule where you have to RP right before you attack. I do think you should flag someone before you attack, but I think the question here is how long before you attack. Before area tranfer to me seems not to be the answer for most cases. So I guess my opinion is, you flag before you attack. I am not opposed to flag then attack right away. But also understand people wanting more warning due to lag or something else.
Alright begining to Ramble. I am done
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Sept 30, 2005 23:55:25 GMT -5
I agree with the flagging upon entry except for one thing. If you flag someone before you see them, then it is automatically assumed that PvP will initiate once you come across each other. This doesn't HAVE to happen. Say for example ... oh i dont know ... I flag a cleric upon entry because we arent best friends. All of a sudden I stumble upon them in a PvP allowed area. Now, I wanted to RP a little bit before getting to the fight, but it was assumed that because I had flagged previously that I was just going to outright attack. I guess what I am trying to say is flagging does not equal attack on sight. It just means that the situation is possible. So I guess flagging a person before you see them is a fine way to do things, as long as you make note to the person, "Hey, dont attack me right away cause I want to RP a little". And if you are a stealth type person, flag them and then click the button to attack (you'll just have to get fast fingers )
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Post by Grozer on Oct 1, 2005 0:29:05 GMT -5
I agree with the flagging upon entry except for one thing. If you flag someone before you see them, then it is automatically assumed that PvP will initiate once you come across each other. This doesn't HAVE to happen. Say for example ... oh i dont know ... I flag a cleric upon entry because we arent best friends. All of a sudden I stumble upon them in a PvP allowed area. Now, I wanted to RP a little bit before getting to the fight, but it was assumed that because I had flagged previously that I was just going to outright attack. I guess what I am trying to say is flagging does not equal attack on sight. It just means that the situation is possible. You know Quad, this is not meant as an attack at all, just to present another side. I was gonna bit my tongue but I think its important to see the whole picture. First remember our first encounter? You flagged me early.. then later in the session, lured me upstairs in the redmist inn right across a number of super strong traps.. almost killed me right there. What happened? I didnt even try to attack you after that... we RP'd and wound up coming to an "agreement". It actually was one of the more fun moments I've had. In this example you mentioned there was no opportunity for RP, why? Let me put this in perspective, we went after you as soon as we saw you not because we were flagged but because you had already attempted to kill Vis once very recently. In addition, Ranan and one other person overheard you telling Manshin and Sharita (yes I can spy too!) that you wanted Vis dead. This was very recently and openly around the Isinhold campfire. Ranan had already warned Vis to watch herself. So I think Vis instant reaction was warranted... esp in character. She wasnt reacting to the flagging, it was fear for life. However I agree with you.. when you flag someone ahead of time... you can almost always guarantee that person will do something they might not normally do in character. Or that person might be quick to strike when coming across the hostile person. Come on we are all human and as hard as it is to separate you from what the character knows, its damn tough. I want to public apologize to you if you think I did anything wrong the other day. I really didnt want to go through with that... and afterwards I actually thought up another solution, but hindsight is 20/20 I guess. Sometimes I really question why I play evil character at all... its too tough to be cruel. Anyway I really hope we are cool as players... Sorry for hijacking again..
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