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Post by Micteu on Oct 22, 2008 12:50:14 GMT -5
If anyone wants to RP flying from one town to another I have no qualms with that. The problem I see is flying over short distances. There is no game mechanism to mimic flying up/down a mountain to the next ridge. There is no mechanism to mimic flying across the short gap of a broken bridge to get to the other side. I could list many more short distance examples. I think the class would be very unbalanced/overpowering if there were such a feat/mechanism. Anyway, for myself, saying Rastan can't fly at all because his wings are still growing is an easy explanation as to why he can't fly those short distances. You could maybe also say that the dragon blood is too weak, so the magical strength associated with something as large as a dragon being able to fly with such small wings is not present. You could also say that the breast muscles are seriously underdeveloped, making the wings only vestigial bone and skin sticking out of the back with very little supportive muscle. On the other hand, on a couple servers I've played on, they did have flying widgets for people with wings (It would show the "take off" animation, port the person to the spot targetted, followed by a black screen, then the landing animation.), but like JCrux said, it seriously unbalanced things and provided a way to completely avoid triggers.
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Post by ancientempathy on Oct 22, 2008 13:06:07 GMT -5
Neat ideas..now lets try to focus Flying is an aside to all of this It relates to appearance because it relates to the wings Which by the way...anyone got an idea of what they may look like? What do the RDD's have to say? In terms of scales and color...I dont like the wing coloration that the picture displays that munroe showed
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Post by AnvilX on Oct 22, 2008 14:41:36 GMT -5
This is probably the same thing Micteu mentioned…. On another server where I use to vacation here and there, one of my characters was an avariel. They used a widget that when clicked and then clicked on the destination point, the character would appear to fly for small spans. It would show the animation for taking off and landing. This was only good for small jumps across the screen, but you could jump across ravines over gates on top of buildings etc.. It was interesting and fun in the beginning, but the novelty soon wore off, by no means was it true flying. I do not believe this was a Hak, but a script like the horses, as I don’t remember DL and installing one.
To balance it out, for starters you could always lower con and ac when taking off and landing. If I recall correctly it took a couple seconds to activate, so you couldn’t just flee from a monster with out them getting a chance to get a whack in. I also think you could only fly in areas that were open.
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JCrux
Old School
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Post by JCrux on Oct 22, 2008 15:54:03 GMT -5
Here is some information I, uh, borrowed from the Forgotten Realms Wiki. Brass DragonPhysically, the brass dragon is highly distinctive. From below, its outstretched wings form a triangular shape, as they are attached to its body all the way to the tip of its tail. The wings are longest at the shoulder, and taper gently as they reach the tail. Their scales seem to radiate heat and light. The shape of the head is quite unusual, as it includes a large, curved plate that extends from the dragon's eyes and cheeks on either side and curves upwards into two points. They have two sharp horns on the chin, which become steadily pointier as the dragon ages. They smell like metal. Gold DragonPhysically, gold dragons are quite spectacular. Several large horns tipped with umber shoot sideways from their cheeks, and two very prominent horns point backwards along their heads. The most obvious feature is probably the tentacle whiskers that sprout from the top and bottom of the gold dragon's jaw, giving the appearance of a beard of sorts. Their wings, like those of brass and copper dragons, connect to the body all the way to the tip of the tail. From below, the overall shape resembles that of a brass dragon, but the different coloring and dramatic difference in size enables easy differentiation. When in flight, the gold dragon's wings ripple, giving the appearance of swimming rather than flying. They smell of saffron and incense. Red DragonNo description given. Anyway, I think how one's wings look would depend on which color is their heritage. From the pictures and descriptions I'd say brass and gold wings are similar in shape while a red's wings are quite different. In Rastan's case, since he doesn't have a tail, I imagine his wings being wide at the shoulders and narrowing like a V to the small of his back.
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Post by Micteu on Oct 23, 2008 4:37:54 GMT -5
Also, what muscle groups are attached to the wings to actually move them? Would it be like growing a second set of pectorals, similar to the drawings above? Would they wrap around the ribcage and attach to the breastbone? Would the breastbone jut out a little more like it does on birds? Would it make Sharteel look more or less hawt?
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Post by ancientempathy on Oct 23, 2008 7:47:51 GMT -5
Here, Rastan Red Dragon Identifiers:
Two massive horns sweep back atop a red dragon's head. These horns can be straight or twisted, and can be any hue from bone white to night black. Rows of small horns run along the top of a red dragon's head, and the dragon has small horns on its cheeks and lower jaw as well.
A red dragon has a beaked snout with a small nose and chin horns. Its tongue is forked, and little flames often dance in its nostils and eye sockets when it is angry.
The dragon has fringed ears that tend to merge with the cheek horns as the dragon ages. A red dragon's teeth protrude when its mouth is closed, and it has a single backswept frill that begins behind the head and runs all the way to the tip of the tail.
The small scales of wrymlings are a bright glossy scarlet. Toward the end of the young age, the scales turn a deeper red, and the glossy texture is replaced by a smooth, dull finish. As the dragon grows older, the scales become large, thick, and as strong as metal. The pupils of a red dragon fade as it ages; the oldest dragons have eyes that resemble molten lava orbs (awesome).
The odor of sulfur and pumice surrounds a red dragon.
A red dragon has the longest wings of all chromatic dragons, both in actual measurement and in relation to body length. This is mostly due to the outermost alar phalange, which is very long and gives the wing a tapering look. The longest part of the wing is right at the trailing edge. The trailing edge of the wing membrane attaches to the dragon's body behind the rear lags and well down the tail. The wings have a bluish or blue-black tint along the trailing edge (the dragon's frills show a similar pattern); the color resembles metal burned blue in a fire.
The great horns on a red dragon's head are clearly visible.
From the Draconomicon, pgs. 50-51 |
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Post by ancientempathy on Oct 23, 2008 8:15:32 GMT -5
Also, what muscle groups are attached to the wings to actually move them? Would it be like growing a second set of pectorals, similar to the drawings above? Would they wrap around the ribcage and attach to the breastbone? Would the breastbone jut out a little more like it does on birds? Would it make Sharteel look more or less hawt? Well, I'm a chicken wing expert more than I am a dragon wing expert, however.. A dragon's wings consist of a membrace of scaeless hide stretched over a framework of strong but lightweight bones. Immensely powerful muscles in the dragon's chest provide power for light.
Most dragons have wings that resemble bat wings, wih a relatively short supporting alar limb, ending in a vestigial claw that juts forward. Most of the wing area comes from a membrane stretched over elongated "fingers" of bone (the alar phalanges), which stretch far beyond the alar limb.
Some kinds of dragons have wings that run the lengths of their bodies, something like the "wings" of manta rays. This sort of wing also has an alar limb with phalanges supporting the forward third of the wing, but the remainder of the wing is support by modified frill spines that have only a limited range of motion and muscular control.
Draconomicon, pg. 7 |
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Post by ancientempathy on Oct 23, 2008 8:25:04 GMT -5
So a simple translation would likely mean that the RDD, with wings, would likely have stronger pectoral muscles that clearly have a defined form, I would wager (RDD's do get a total of +8 strength at level 10). In the case of a female RDD, this could mean a perkier bossom, and perhaps even enlarged (consider the +2 Charisma...1 for confidence and the other for...boobs! Amongst other things.) Counterweights?
Of course I could very well be mistake and be speaking purely out of a perverts point of view.
But whatever the case...the Draconomicon expounds more on Dragon anatomy. I prefer to refrain from posting all the information that it provides because well, it's a LOT, and it won't make much sense without the diagrams they show.
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Oct 24, 2008 12:37:42 GMT -5
ROFL x2 at Ancient's chicken wing statement.
And I would think that as wings are bursting out of the character's back, the body would adjust to the requirements of having wings attached to it: more muscle groups would appear, the bones of the body would adjust (would the bones become hollow to allow flight?), and I would think it would be safe to say that the adjustment of the rib cage could be personified in the elongation of the ribcage, which would wind up being the burden bearer of the wings (other than the shoulder blades, but perhaps widening shoulders and a more rigid spine would also contribute to charisma bonuses?).
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Post by gnomegun on Oct 24, 2008 13:16:16 GMT -5
This is what I envision Sharteel to look like (it almost looks like her headset too). The portrait isn't perfect but it close enough: That's a change from her original form...Which was blonde hair and fair complexion. I've detailed her appearance out rather well on this thread so the rest of the info is on here Now just try to envision scales about the skin surface. I tryed my best to search for a picture on google but no go. After searchign 5 different things, each 38+ pages, I got annoyed some
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Post by brian333 on Oct 25, 2008 2:45:06 GMT -5
I would opine that dragonflight is not entirely mechanical, but at the least assisted by magic. Simply put, I believe nothing as massive as a dragon could stay aloft on muscle-power alone due to the absolute limit of the strength of the muscle and bone cells and the incredible leverage 30-foot-long wings would put on their shoulder-joint-fulcrums. It's easier to explain this with a diagram, but I'll try: You have a stick as long as your hand and as big-around as a broomstick. Try to break it over your knee. Now, take a piece one foot longer and try again, and then again with an even longer one. Sooner or later you'll get one long enough to provide you with enough leverage to break. Same with wings. Beyond a certain length, bone and muscle fail. The largest Earthly flier ever to soar was about 30-40 feet from wingtip to wingtip, and about that long from head to tail. It had hollow bones and a huge chest which was the bulk of it's body. This creature was likely the maximum mass biology could lift into the air, and the air was much denser then making flight marginally easier at low speeds. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuetzalcoatlusSo, I'd have to say a significant portion of a dragon's ability to fly comes from an innate magical assistance like a kind of levitation.
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Oct 25, 2008 3:24:09 GMT -5
To brian333:
This is not the real world.
Assume that dragons' muscles are simply that powerful, and their bones are able to bear the stress.
Come on, they don't exist anyhow. If a pegasus can fly by wing power, then a dragon can.
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Post by ancientempathy on Oct 25, 2008 18:59:31 GMT -5
Again, not a dragon wing expert but a chicken wing, however... Flight:
Some sages speculate that a dragon's ability to fly is partially magical; however, dragons have been known to take a wing and maneuver inside antimagic areas where their spells and breath weapons do not work. A dragon owes its ability to fly, and its flight characteristics, to its peculiar anatomy and metabolism. A dragon weighs much less than a strictly terrestrial creature of the same size does, and its mucles--particularly the ones that enable it to fly--are exceptionally strong, giving the dragon's wings enough power to lift the dragon into the air.
A dragon's biggest problem in flight is just getting aloft. Given the chance, a dragon prefers to launch itself from a height, where it can gain speed by diving initially. Failing that, a dragon takes flight by leaping into the air, giving itself a boost by snapping its tail downward and pushing off with its hind legs.
Once airborne, a dragon stays aloft with deceptively slow and stately wing beats. The wings develop tremendous lift and thrust on each stroke, allowing the dragon to coast for brief periods. To further conserve energy in flight, a dragon makes use of any updrafts it can find. Under the right conditions, a dragon can soar for hours with little effort. A dragon attempting to fly a long distance usually begins by finding an updraft and spiraling upward to a comfortable altitude, then soaring from one updraft to another. Dragons can quickly cover great distance in this manner.
A dragon in straight and level flight holds its body fairly straight, with its neck and tail extended, its front legs tucked under its chest, and its rear legs thrown back. The dragon's powerful neck and tail, along with the frills on its back, help keep it on course. Although a dragon's wings do not resemble a bird's wings, a dragon uses its wings as a bird of prey does, with smooth, steady downward strokes and quick upstrokes.
Draconomicon, pgs. 18-19 |
And etc. There's a lot more to it than that but I have a headache right now. With an RDD's total of +8 STR at level 10, its feasible for them to fly, but I would expect them to have an appropriately suitable wingspan to do so (this is just my opinion).
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Post by brian333 on Oct 25, 2008 19:18:03 GMT -5
To brian333: This is not the real world. Assume that dragons' muscles are simply that powerful, and their bones are able to bear the stress. Come on, they don't exist anyhow. If a pegasus can fly by wing power, then a dragon can. Wanted to come up with a snappy comeback, but Ancient just pwned me for the win. In FR, dragons fly without the aid of magic!
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Post by Micteu on Oct 25, 2008 22:42:47 GMT -5
And in Soviet Russia, magic flies you! Anyways, would there be pain? I've heard Avariel still experience pain, even with their super-light bones (see this page, which I believe is ripped from a 2.0 sourcebook). Avariel don't wear armor. Would a heavy RDD experience a bit of it from all the stress of beating those wings so hard?
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Post by cloakedandhooded on Oct 27, 2008 0:18:39 GMT -5
This is probably the same thing Micteu mentioned…. On another server where I use to vacation here and there, one of my characters was an avariel. They used a widget that when clicked and then clicked on the destination point, the character would appear to fly for small spans. It would show the animation for taking off and landing. This was only good for small jumps across the screen, but you could jump across ravines over gates on top of buildings etc.. It was interesting and fun in the beginning, but the novelty soon wore off, by no means was it true flying. I do not believe this was a Hak, but a script like the horses, as I don’t remember DL and installing one. To balance it out, for starters you could always lower con and ac when taking off and landing. If I recall correctly it took a couple seconds to activate, so you couldn’t just flee from a monster with out them getting a chance to get a whack in. I also think you could only fly in areas that were open. You know, in D&D Monks get Abundant Step at monk level 12 and Shadowdancers get Shadow Jump at shadowdancer level 4. What you're describing sounds like it would work great for both of those class abilities if the fly animation was removed. The shadowdancer variation has a much shorter range than the monk version though, so it would need a bit of tweaking. The monk version is 1/day while the shadowdancer version is determined by total distance covered in 10 ft. increments to the maximum for the SD of that level.
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Post by cloakedandhooded on Oct 27, 2008 0:22:44 GMT -5
Oh, sorry, that's a bit off topic. You guys can go back to talking about whether dragons have magical flight or they have natural flight that is enabled by being innately magical creatures.
Oh, as for Sharteel's breasts, I would imagine that having increased muscle in that area would make her breasts smaller, not larger. A woman's breasts aren't muscle. I cite any disturbing picture of a flat-chested female bodybuilder.
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Post by Micteu on Oct 27, 2008 1:49:05 GMT -5
Heh. Way to ruin our gamer-style fun. Anyways, I think of the muscle as being more underneath the fatty tissue, and bodybuilders only look that way because they have trimmed the extra fat off their bodies. Speaking of which, would the scales interfere with the more subtle curves (like muscles and such) on a RDD? If they have an AC bonus of +4 at level 10, that would be about equal to scale mail.
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JCrux
Old School
Posts: 603
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Post by JCrux on Oct 27, 2008 10:20:46 GMT -5
Oh, sorry, that's a bit off topic. You guys can go back to talking about whether dragons have magical flight or they have natural flight that is enabled by being innately magical creatures. Oh, as for Sharteel's breasts, I would imagine that having increased muscle in that area would make her breasts smaller, not larger. A woman's breasts aren't muscle. I cite any disturbing picture of a flat-chested female bodybuilder. Female bodybuilders have flat chests because they drastically reduce their body fat, not because of the increased muscles. They lower their body fat to better show off their muscles. But if a woman maintained a reasonable amount of body fat while building muscles then she would keep her curves. And if her pecs are larger then I imagine her chest would protrude out a little more. So, keep Sharteel away from the health food. With a proper diet she can maintain her voluptuous looks.
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Post by lowstorm on Jan 17, 2014 19:19:54 GMT -5
Bumping a seriously old thread, as so many people have asked me recently what an RDD goes through and looks like, and while this thread is super-old its still relevant to the topics at hand.
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Post by Pedantry INC on Jan 17, 2014 20:23:03 GMT -5
For those interested, this goes hand in hand: Roleplay ideas for dragon disciples - this reflects both on dragon disciples, half dragons, and the like, and can give some insight both to how the setting views them, and what they go through. There's a fair discussion of player opinion as well as a bunch of cited source material. frc.proboards.com/thread/7691/rp-ideas-dragon-disciple
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Post by Animayhem on Mar 10, 2016 18:36:21 GMT -5
The RDD is an interesting class. I once played a sorceress/rdd but only took three levels of rdd she was 12 sorc and 3rdd. I played her more human than draconic but I did role play she had faint iridescent scales on her body. I had fun having her learn to control her . It can be quite fun to tweak and one does not necessarily have to go full rdd. In regards to flying, elsewhere I played a half celestial she could not fly per se but could hover and sort of fly hop much like a chicken does when startled.
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Post by styxxbone1 on Mar 18, 2016 20:59:28 GMT -5
How to react? Torches, Pitch Forks and mobs of angry villagers comes to mind...
styxx
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Post by emeraldsnowx on Mar 26, 2016 0:02:09 GMT -5
... At level 10 dragon disciples get +2 charisma. This suggests they become more appealing to people, not less so. I haven't heard an explanation but I assume this charisma boost comes from developing something like the awe inspiring presence dragons have. I'd love to hear other explanations. ... keep in mind also that Charisma is not necessarily always a positive thing. It represents a character's force of personality (intimidate is also a Cha-based skill).
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