Gusty
New Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Gusty on Jul 4, 2005 13:01:39 GMT -5
Just so everyone knows, every one of the DM's operates secret identity/alias log ins. That low level person that you just snubbed for not being high enough level to go with you, something that you could have only known by right-clicking on the character, just might have been a DM. Information such as this should never be used IG, if you did not already know this...
I recieved a PM report that an incident of this kind occurred last night on the server. I have heard of it happening, but it rarely happens when one is operating their higher level characters.
A good rule of thumb - treat every other character you encounter, regardless of level, regardless of sign-in name, as if they are a DM in disguise, and you can do no wrong. I expect if everyone played in this way the overall level of Roleplaying on the server would also improve.
Make it so.
- DM Gustyrill
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Post by MithrilBlade on Jul 4, 2005 14:03:38 GMT -5
A question: Does this mean if we're going to kill some sort of cloud giants with a group and someone our characters don't even know forcefully wishes to tag alone do we must "give him the chance" risking the fact that we do not know anything of his/her abilities or chances to survive there?
I usually don't click examine and say "no you can't come", but I usually try to find alternative way to say it, my character would NOT risk taking people with him unless he'd know their abilities well for the mission.
There are many far worse ways to metagame, actually it should be rather easy to see if someone isn't experienced adventurer from the general way how he acts, except with some people that are good in acting something they are not (for example Bob is lv 1 fighter and wants to tag along to go kill a dragon, he jumps up and down waving his sword yelling "I'LL KILL THE WYRM, THEN I RAISE HIM AND KILL HIM AGAIN!". Doesn't give the best impression to other adventurers of his abilities as usually people like that die too early to become any good).
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Post by Talus on Jul 4, 2005 14:21:46 GMT -5
I think I know what incident you are talking about. I ussually just start asking questions to see how much there character wants to go. Like do you have the coins to take the caravan. That ussually does it for low level Chars wanting to tag along. That 100 gp is quite the deterent for most lower levels.
If you just keep it in character too. It can ussually be solved easily enough. Seen more of those things fall into OOC chatter.
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Gusty
New Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Gusty on Jul 4, 2005 14:30:27 GMT -5
What it means is don't metagame. There aren't grey area exceptions to this rule that you can decide for yourself. There is no way for anyone to force their way into a party. You have to invite them. If there is no reason for you to party with someone based on the RP then don't party with them. If the reason you arent partying with someone is based not on RP but on metagamed information, Right clicking on the character then you have just failed the metagamer test.
You have no way of knowing what that character may or may not be able to offer. You may have just missed a great opportunity for roleplay or an exclusive quest or magic-item that may or may not have been bestowed upon you.
I don't know how I can be any more clear about this. DO NOT use right-click metagame information. savvy?
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Jul 4, 2005 15:08:07 GMT -5
On one of the previous servers I used to play on I let a low level character come along on a quest because I had no reason to refuse her. Ends up she saved my but with the few small healing spells she had. When you are at -3 hp and the server doesn't allow for stabilization a cure light wounds is a life saver.
Yeah maybe they will get killed but maybe they will save your life too. You never know. Just don't base the acceptance of them into your party based on level.
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Post by Keetena on Jul 4, 2005 17:40:43 GMT -5
What ours DMs are saying is a serious problem in metagame that they are absolutely correct, I saw a couple of times people roleplaying shouts and get angered about characters bellow their levels asking to help while smiling to those above offering help or worst, asking for help only to those above... I myself when party with characters to much bellow my level and noticing they are possibly new in server ever send a tell 'I'll drop your xp to much and things will be hard' - ok, not a nice tell in roleplay terms, cause our main objective ISN'T xp, but I'm not certain if that player is interested in fight hard for so few reward, if they answer to me 'no problem, I don't care' I'll endoss accept they... if I do a journey and see the one perishing to much easy or simply jumping in the first monster that apeared I politely tried educate that one (cause Keetena always was gentle) but when things get to this point to much I think you are well endossed in roleplay to judge bad that company and ask to undo allegiances --- I had a problem times ago with a company who died to many times, consumed much raises of me but was everytime asking to go again, the result was much roleplay cause I IC demanded this - 'No, I don't wanna go to that place, I really need rest' -- I'm not saying that I'm a saint, just that all we can do this or similar before exclude someone of party just because of level... it wasn't coincidence that almost all of my constant companions were bellow my level, since my 2nd lvl...
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Post by Kolfrosta on Jul 4, 2005 20:19:27 GMT -5
Generally if Shari is invited along with a low level group going to an area that is way too easy for her, and there isn't real RP reason for her to go, she will "have other matters that need her attention". And that is usually the truth. This doesn't mean she won't find a handy other Silver Shield nearby to "assign" the task to. I have been in parties before when the tells and //OOC complaints start "Hey, I'm not getting any XP!" And..well...sometimes there are comments that are not so polite. So, I figure, as a rule, if someome wants to come along, let them, 9 times out of 10 they will bail the party when they see they aren't getting XP..... it isn't always us higher level folks metagaming. One final thought. I have been in parties where as the low level who couldn't do much but shoot arrows and hope her party didn't have to raise her too many times. Maybe one time it is fun to go along and see the epic character fight. The second time might be fun as well....but after that....and this is just me....but, I found those trips.....getting to be old and boring.
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Post by hoffman900 on Jul 4, 2005 20:55:55 GMT -5
I use the right click every chance I get....
...so I can see character description ;D
I like to know who takes the time to write a good description ( *not* a biography!) so I can expect at least decent RP from them.
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Post by Keetena on Jul 5, 2005 5:04:37 GMT -5
I rarely see description and when do so I read only physical description or less important information, few are the characters I read about, but for example Keetena has no description, but you can access the server homepage to see much of her story ---
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Misha Aogail
Old School
Player of: Torian Burrfoot, Misha, Whisper, and Oriana Gant
Posts: 324
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Post by Misha Aogail on Jul 5, 2005 8:09:29 GMT -5
Well, I've only done this once and that was when a newbie, who just came on for the first time, wanted to go with me and a couple of other people on an adventure. We all metagamed and said he looked a little green, but allowed him to come anyway. Halfway through the adventure, he realized it was a bit much for his new character and left. Good thing too, 'cause we all got slaughtered just afterwards. Anyhoo... Seeing as my highest level character is in the middle range and most people are either impossible or effortless, it really doesn't matter who I team up with, unless, of course, they are level 5 or below and still wandering through the Isinhold dungeons.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Jul 5, 2005 11:12:41 GMT -5
Another IC way that you can tell if someone should be coming with you is by testing their skills out in town before you leave. That is what those practice dummies are for right? So if you see them doing one attack per round and they cant use magic, i think your character that can do four attacks can safely assume that they are "just a little too slow". Or you can duel with them. I did this with one character cause he wanted to go somewhere with me. I told him, "Fire a few arrows at me and if you hit me then you can come". He was level one so his attack bonus was not gonna beat my ac unless he rolled a twenty. After he fired 10 arrows at hroth, hroth told him, "The monsters I face move faster than I, and I think you would be hard pressed to hit them." Then he gives the character some sound advice and goes on his way. Little ways OOC to explain IC why a newb should not come. As for right clicking on an opponent ... I am starting to think I liked sabremoe's suggestion about removing the challenge rating.
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Post by Keetena on Jul 5, 2005 11:23:05 GMT -5
If Hrotgar do such thing with anyone (ask to fire arrows) I can say that this isn't metagame... sorry quad, but I don't think this one as a good idea, even if you say 'I'll suffer only up 10 hit points damage' this is a little anti-realistic, if even the legendary elf king was killed by a luck arrow shoot in Faerun, why Hrotgar should not?... I don't wanna put my finger where I'm not called, but this is my opinion...
and I say the same thing you and Sabremoe said, the best is remove the chalenge rating, I played in a server once that had such thing and the level of interection really got up considerably.
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Post by Keetena on Jul 5, 2005 11:34:22 GMT -5
There are another gentle ways to talk with newbyes... Keetena for example is generally surprised when a newbye says that confronted undeads in Isinhold, she almost says that the tombs there are amongst the most powerfull in Cormyr, cause that tombs seal themselves to people who goes to much there, so strong is the power and evil there (my IC explanation of why I can't go there) and that Isinhold really needs heroes who can enter that places and destroy the perils inside - If I go with someone below my level but that shows potencial and a smarter way of combat (like chose wisely when strike in melle or ranged or cast the right spells in right moment) I always say how wonderful he fights, dispiste how much hits he/she made, anyway the plan is do the best to all feel accepted, even if you don't accept they in your party, give they a chance to talk and a roleplay chance, I think abusive when someone just ignores the newbie... everybody deserves at least attencion.
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Post by MithrilBlade on Jul 5, 2005 12:47:56 GMT -5
Okay as I am getting the feeling people think just because I won't accept "newbies" to my travels so easily that I am just metagaming and ignore them entirely.
This is a lie, I always roleplay with any newbies I meet IGNORING the examine button, I treat everyone I don't know with the same (perhaps slightly official but not cold or ignoring) way and I seriously couldn't give less what examine might tell me, all that matters to me is if I have heard of the person or if I know him/her ICly.
Actually I often even join up with people that have even nearly 10 level difference to me and like Kolfrosta mentioned too I have got messages from some people in the team that they're getting sucky exp because of me and well that's only thing I really dislike.
The main thing I meant when I said I won't accept people with me is when I'm going into some seriously hard place where I am not completely safe myself, then I have usually *very good* RP reasons not to take complete strangers with me, Jann just would never willingly take the risk that he'd bring complete stranger with him to some uber dungeon in the underdark or whatsoever..
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Misha Aogail
Old School
Player of: Torian Burrfoot, Misha, Whisper, and Oriana Gant
Posts: 324
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Post by Misha Aogail on Jul 5, 2005 21:20:15 GMT -5
There is one thing I have to say about metagaming that happened not too long ago. Just a few days in fact. A newbie had logged on and made a character that looked, I kid you not, the EXACT double of Hrothgar. From skin tone to hair color, they could have been twins. Deciding to play around with this, Hroth learned this other person's name and posed as this new person for a short bit until another PC came up. One that Hroth didn't want be around incase he DID do something to give him away. This PC told the one that Hroth was hanging around with that it was, infact, Hroth, not the person he was posing as. Now, I was there, watched the whole interaction, and can say that this second PC could have no idea about it being Hroth as he was leaving when the PC arrived. The only way he could have know FOR A FACT that it was him, was by metagaming. I hate to say it, but it's true. The person I'm talking about knows this is true too, even though he tried to justify it to Hroth via tells (Yes, Tori finds out about a LOT of things...). I will not name names because as a whole, this PC is a very good roleplayer, but it's little things like THIS that make me mad. Not so much judging a character by their difficulty.
By the way... Have I mentioned the fact that Tori's been involved in 4 duels? She lost two of them, one to a person who's rating was impossible (and yet I still went through with it), and a person who's rating was easy (Yep. Little guy got me). A lot of times those ratings don't tell you anything more than the fact they're a few levels lower than you.
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Post by soulfien on Jul 5, 2005 21:47:21 GMT -5
Once a PC dressed like a rogue came up to my mage and asked him "Hey do you want to go on an advinture?" I left the typo in there on purpose. Well, the way he ran up to my mage as he was leaving town and asked that made it seem totally like a newb so I didn't even bother checking the difficulty rating. I assumed it was a newb and acted on it... Well, I turned him down saying I was headed to Redmist to do some shopping- which was true- I needed some more dyes. My mage also looked at him suspiciously due to the hood and black leather- he does indeed judge people by their clothes. Well, the PC said "Oh okay" and stood there... I walked towards the gate, still thinking IC and OOC that it's a newb and then he began casting a slew of divine spells including a wand of the ghost. He was still standing in front of the inn where he had first caught up with me and buffing like mad... I quickly scanned him and saw that he was rated as impossible! My mage then took the caravan instead of walking like he normally does and decided that it was an assassination attempt- it must have been an attempt to lure him away from town to kill him quietly. At least that's what he thinks I've never seen that PC before or since that day.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Jul 5, 2005 23:03:40 GMT -5
That would have been a really cool story had you taken the caravan because you were worried about an ambush without checking his rating first.
The fact that you didn't continue on with your overland trip after you checked his rating is the kind of action that people need to break the habit of doing.
It is easy to justify an action after you find out OOC info. The main thing to remember is what would your character do in a situation and do it without checking OOC info.
Malhavock (someone Soulfien knows from a previous server) would have went on out the gate and quickly hidden to see if he was followed and then followed the other guy instead.
If you don't know OOC info you don't have to justify anything. You act or react according to what's happening. It is easier to play fairly if you don't try to find out information from OOC sources.
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Post by silenttracker on Jul 5, 2005 23:48:12 GMT -5
The Hrothgar incident was a strange one. A fellow came up to me and started a conversation. Then his body double Hrothgar came in and continued on the conversation as if the "other" him just crashed. I just ran with it being the first character still, but it bought up an excellent question. Can doubles be made of a character for disquise purposes, or is each character made a unique individual? Is sharing information between two different characters metagaming, or was it a clever trick? The situation didn't bother me any to tell you the truth, I thought it was pretty funny, shady, but funny, and it kept me on the edge of my chair.
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Post by silenttracker on Jul 5, 2005 23:50:30 GMT -5
Hey Soul, I saw that guy too lol! He wouldnt tell me his name, or what the trouble was, or who he needed to help, but he wanted me to come running. I thought it was shady too lol. I was sure if I went out of town I was toast. Haven't seen him since either.
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Post by Kolfrosta on Jul 6, 2005 4:21:16 GMT -5
I learned long ago the CR is about worthless for determining difficulty of your opponent. There are things rated "Effortless" for Sharita that are anything but "effortless" for her to defeat. There are also things rated "Impossible" that she can handle quite easily. So, if you begin to rely on the CR rating, more than trying for yourself to see what your character can handle, you are really only short-changing yourself.
Last I knew there was a server rule about one person's characters sharing information between themselves. Let alone creating a whole other character to be a "disguise".........
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Post by Keetena on Jul 6, 2005 5:38:22 GMT -5
Some of the most fun moments in this last weeks was interaction with Sharita and Torian with a halfling I created to play recently, we don't went to adventure but the level of roleplay was really high, I can use this one for example, Fremein, the acrobat halfling! I'll not list names, but some players simple called he a fake when he said his name, even if in a triple mortal jump I get a high dice 'tumble' score like 19+8 (this is a success I must say!) and these called he a fake just because of level I'm more than certain, but at same time I had players of impossible rates, and even those with highs 'tumble' who aplauded - this is just an example about how some people judge valor for rating but others don't deserve the same judgement.
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Misha Aogail
Old School
Player of: Torian Burrfoot, Misha, Whisper, and Oriana Gant
Posts: 324
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Post by Misha Aogail on Jul 6, 2005 8:04:06 GMT -5
Actually, Hroth didn't make the character. The total randomness of someone new coming on to the server, looking EXACTLY like Hroth is near improbable, but it did happen. We were both shocked when we first saw the guy. Now... Finding someone who looks like you in game, and using them as a body double, whether THEY'RE aware of it or not, is a perfectly legitimate way to get other people in troub... I mean find out information or get close to their girl... Er... Anyway, yeah. Random happening that someone used to their advantage. It happens IRL all the time.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Jul 6, 2005 10:02:04 GMT -5
Ok here's the deal with the body double incident. Hroth had been stealthed, sitting around the campfire, watching everyone there. Up runs Hroth's exact body double. Hroth gets very intrigued and decides to follow him. He tries to pick up his mannerisms as well as his voice. He looks for other scars and noticeably distinct features on the characters face. He makes note of the type of armor and remembers where to pick up this type of armor is. Hroth then travelled to redmist, after this character decided to go on his way (ie crashed). Hroth picked up some makeup, some leathers of the same kind and headed back. He applied all these things before approaching Braiden. Then he approached and decided to continue on the conversation and see what he could find out. Braiden seemed not to notice the difference and so they continued talking. Once Braiden started asking Hroth a lot more personal questions, Hroth got a little nervous and decided it was probably best to leave. At this point another PC showed up, and as Hroth was excusing himself to relieve himself, the other character runs up. Hroth looks at him and then takes off running behind the bar and then disappears into the shadows. Then what misha has explained occured. I thought that Braiden played it wonderfully, and I even tried to give him the opportunity to see through my disguise when he asked me personal questions ("What's your name?" "Ummm ... oooo ... *name*, yeah that's it" the name the PC had disclosed earlier).
So let's talk about body doubles for a second. I agree, each and every character is unique unto themselves. Just because they pick the same skin tone, head and hair color does not mean they look exactly the same. I realized this going into this situation, and so did hroth. He knew that the man did not look exactly the same and so he took the extra precautions to accomodate for it. However this seems unacceptable to some. Since there is no disguise artist check, what do we use? Bluff/Persuade? Or is it the only way you can hide your features is a hood/mask/helmet?
Now on the other hand, this was a completely random incident (the only reason why I decided to come out of hiding was because it was so bizarre that I had to go with it). I do not think it is good RP to make two characters that look exactly the same, and then use them to gather information to share between the two. That is a bit like metagaming.
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Post by Spooks on Jul 6, 2005 12:56:28 GMT -5
Have we ever had two players make twins? like who wouldnt want to see A blackguard Sharita, just walk up to "our" sharita and stare eachother down... I think THAT would be amusing...
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Jul 6, 2005 18:05:17 GMT -5
"Have we ever had two players make twins? like who wouldnt want to see A blackguard Sharita, just walk up to "our" sharita and stare eachother down... I think THAT would be amusing..."
Since each player has to create his or her own history, this would only be acceptable with the permission of the original character or if done by a DM. *evil grin*
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Post by Munroe on Jul 7, 2005 5:59:53 GMT -5
I played a server where the DMs had a character duplication wand and could make a temporary NPC double (items and all) of any player character. Now that was interesting when the DMs would have a doppleganger running around posing as the character doing malicious things, murders, false rumours and whatnot. It was also fun to have to fight an exact NPC duplicate of your own character.
They also had it so the shadowshield visual effect could be added at duplication to produce shadow doubles. This was built into one of the dungeons. When you're a rogue/ranger/shadowdancer who carries dozens of scrolls, your shadow double can be real trouble because they don't have the same hesitation about conserving scrolls.
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Post by soulfien on Jul 7, 2005 6:46:42 GMT -5
Rich, I could already tell he was much more powerful than I was before I checked his rating based on the spells he was casting. With my spellcraft I can identify almost any spell.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Jul 7, 2005 7:21:06 GMT -5
"Rich, I could already tell he was much more powerful than I was before I checked his rating based on the spells he was casting. With my spellcraft I can identify almost any spell."
I believe you. My point was there was no reason to right click at all. It should never happen and I'm not just talking about you. There is absolutely no good reason to ever right click on a player and examine them. None whatsoever. Not for their background story not for their description not for any reason.
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Misha Aogail
Old School
Player of: Torian Burrfoot, Misha, Whisper, and Oriana Gant
Posts: 324
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Post by Misha Aogail on Jul 7, 2005 8:18:24 GMT -5
Mmmm..... Dopplegangers...
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Post by MithrilBlade on Jul 7, 2005 8:44:53 GMT -5
In case examine button should never be used for any purpose at all in game I'd recommend you to perhaps do something with this topic: frc.proboards37.com/index.cgi?board=roleplayideas&action=display&thread=1097752781It at least gives me the feeling that you could if not even should examine them if they have written that description to the "examine box" of their physical appearance which can go deeper than just their head model and clothes. If examine is not allowed under any circumstances basically it's quite much the same if you write there anything at all.
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