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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Jun 1, 2005 17:25:44 GMT -5
Ok let's talk about powergaming for a moment since it seems to be a rather growing issue. To begin this discussion I would first like to like to present my definition of powergaming. Powergaming is the method in which you attempt to increase your characters capabilities by using the system. Now this is a very broad definition and encompasses things which are sometimes hard to draw the line between what the player wants and what the character wants. Let me give a few small examples of powergaming that are easy to recognise: 1) Farming - Repeatedly going to an area because it yields high xp or gold 2) Powerleveling - Focusing all your attention on leveling instead of RP (the main goal of your play time is to get xp) These are very apparent forms of powergaming. Now here are some subtle forms of powergaming. The reason I say subtle is because they are easy to explain in terms of RP and IC convo's. 3) Builds - This means creating a character before you even have the chance to RP them. You have all feats choosen from 1-40 and all your skill points distributed. You dont even have to RP your characters choices because as a player, you have already made them. 4) Taking classes OOC - This is similar to builds, but the difference here is that you may have changed your mind about how you wanted your character to be because you finally learned how to work the server. Let's say you intially thought you were going to play your character till he was a level 40 ranger. Now you learn that the server is a low magic server so being able to use magic devices is a huge advantage. So you take 1 level of wizard so you can wear those robes that give you +5 armor bonus. 5) Taking skills OOC - Similar to the above statement, but now it is in the form of putting a few skill points into skill just so it is usuable (usually only happens with skills that need training). Like a rogue for instance. He puts one skill point into UMD (even though that one point by itself is useless) but now he wears several articles of clothing that allow him to use the skill successfully. Another skill that may be abused this way is pick locks. One point and now you can use those tools of +10 and put most low level rogues to shame.
If this post has pissed you off a little, then you prolly are a powergamer. Hey, you know what, your not the only one. The key here is to keep this little monster inside of you in check. I know it's hard, but just try a little. You'll find that RP is pretty fun.
Now I'm going to go off on a little bit of a rant, and will prolly piss a few people off. Prestige classes. I HATE them. You know why? Because I see them as a very good way to make builds. Most of the prestige classes are overpowered compared to the other classes. And the nice thing about them is you dont have to waste a whole bunch of levels on them in order to get all the cool abilities. Let me go into further detail. There are two prestige classes that really rub me the wrong way. First is weapon master. All you need to take is seven levels and you have all the special abilities that you could want from the class. All you get after level 7 is a few attack bonus increases. I would be very surprised if i ever saw someone take more than 7 levels of weapon master. The other is Red Dragon Disciple. After level 10, all you get is breath weapon increases. Again I see no reason to take RDD levels after level 10, and I would be surprised if anyone took a level beyond this. So why do I bring this up? Because this is the topic of powergaming. Please, please, please, if you take a prestige class, RP it. Don't just take it for the cool abilities.
Also Urban Dictionary has a good definition of PGing
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Post by soulfien on Jun 1, 2005 17:41:03 GMT -5
by definition, Champion of Torm and Blackguard should never be taken by just anyone. You must be EXCEPTIONAL in the eyes of your patron deity to do so yet I see almost no cleric here preaching or acting in any way to further their faith. Fighters don't get these prestige classes unless they are the key to completing some VERY important service. I'd give blackguard to Raven, but he opted to take a lvl in wizard- something that I'd call powergaming That gives him immense power to add to his cleric levels. I feel that all PRC's should be by application only. The application should reflect why your PC (not you) wants the PRC and the DM must think back to the PC's past and determine if he/she has been working towards it in his or her RP. Also, RDD's rub me the wrong way. Big time! It's very much powergaming to take the class and NOT suffer the fear and hatred when walking into a town. The very guards should be tossing these people out. After all, they won't suffer a wolf, but they'll suffer someone that is clearly a demon (or for the more educated) half-dragon.
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Post by Keetena on Jun 1, 2005 18:24:30 GMT -5
I like your opinions about powergame and metagame, but I just wanna say one thing - about bards - I bought at least one point in all skills but I'm good in very few of them, some of these skills I rarely used, like pick pocket that I used only in an old Keetena's boyfriend to tease him *giggles*. But I choosed this way not to gain advantage, but because I really love be a jack-of-all-trades, the definition of a true bard in second edition, they wanna know all about everything but aren't masters in nothing, I hope my consideration to be evaluate as sincere and true, cause is how I really think .... or in other hand why give up of important skill points instead of master in another more important thing? But I respect your opinion and think that is true.
Another thing (stupid question in way)... I read yet in many posts to ask a DM before, but... how I must ask for a prestige class? As I told before to two DMs online I wish to be considered as a prestige class that does not exist in game, but one that I think that maybe I deserve (of course only the DMs can say this) I even took the care of do all the requirements to the class, and believe me, it was a roleplay decision, cause in game some of these options had little use to me, of course I regret in anything about, I'm very happy about Keetena's heart cause I know she's doing what she ever desired --- as I always say, think like your character and not like yourself, so you're roleplaying!
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Post by kenny26 on Jun 1, 2005 18:50:37 GMT -5
some good points you have hound. i didn't take ranks in use magic device though i have rogue levels. jargo doesn't know magic at the most basic stages so why would i ever take that skill?
the weapon master has been put together a bit poorly of you ask me, because you're right, there is little or nothing to be gained by taking it to the 10th level.
this is sad but i don't consider it to be powergaming when a player stops it at level 7 for the same reasons i don't think it's powergaming to avoid taking useless feats or skills. i would like to see some more RP regarding the weapon master's close mental bond with their weapons though. however, i have also seen many weapon masters who do RP this ability and show that they took the class based on RP.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Jun 1, 2005 18:50:43 GMT -5
I so agree about prestigue classes. It is my belief that they should be treated as a reward to those who RP their characters thoughtfully. I posted elswhere that I thought that players should require DM permission to even take them. I will speak of weapon master because that is what Manshin is. A character should not be able to choose that path without devoting himself to his weapon of choice. Though I doubt everyone needs to go to the lengths Manshin did to be bonded with his weapon, at least holding onto one you are partial to for a long time would be good. After all, thats what weapon master is. One who is especially fond of his "type" of weapon is still a fighter, dispite his skill with that sort of weapon, a weapon master is differant. He is bonded with a particular weapon, in Manshin's case, his nodachi Korfuji which he has had since level one. It is my belief that weapon masters should use no other weapon except their favorite. It is because they only use that one weapon that they develop a familiarity with it. Thus they can use it in ways that not even fighters can. In my case, my sword was pretty weak in comparrison to others around me as I progressed, because they were upgrading all the time as they found bigger and better models. But in the end, I think it has helped me make a richer character for it, and I doubt anyone would say Manshin is a rotten weapon master. PCs should let the DMs know early on of their goal to choose this class and then RP toward it. That way the DMs can watch the PC as he/she grows. Perhaps PCs should have to seek out special training to become weapon masters. If the DMs feel that that player has a good RP reason to take the pristigue class, then he lets them train, otherwise they cant take it. This would put a serious cramp on powergaming, as players would need to invest time detailing and fleshing out their characters motivations and goals. Getting DM permission to take a prestege class is not unreasonable. Every player on the server should have been able to make contact with a DM by level ten I would think. If not, then you level way to fast.
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Post by kenny26 on Jun 1, 2005 18:56:25 GMT -5
you're not going to get the DMs to police every char build asking for ic reasons why they have the class... they have alot of other concerns as far as i have understood, and there are ALOT of chars with PRCs to control if they agree to do this...
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Manshin
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FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Jun 1, 2005 19:07:00 GMT -5
I just dont think its unreasonable for a player to make contact with a DM before taking a priestege class. Once when he desides he is going to take it "eventually" and once before he takes it, just to make sure the DM thinks he has been doing a fair enough job or RPing. Infact, I have played on servers where this was the case. In reality, DMs arent going to be paying all that much attention, because under such a style of game, players will know they have to RP the part to get the class, so they will police themselves. Of course, only the DMs know wether they want to bother with this sort of thing or not.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Jun 1, 2005 21:47:04 GMT -5
I would just like to point out that my post was slightly rhetorical, and I was not trying to point the finger at anyone specifically. Just trying to open people up to some personal reflection, even myself
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Gusty
New Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Gusty on Jun 1, 2005 22:09:26 GMT -5
My apologies to everyone I considerred a powergamer and not a roleplayer. According to the following list you can be both. Where do you think you belong on the following list? gamingbasics.com/glossary/types.htmlBy the way, munchkin powergamers really suck.
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Gusty
New Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Gusty on Jun 1, 2005 22:14:13 GMT -5
Also there is another form of powergaming that is more insidious. It is the person who plays the same character 24/7. This is the powergamer that unbalances the server more then the others. Because if you limit the time a person has to powergame, then how much unbalancing can they truly do on a server that is tuned to be balanced. Truly the only character that can unbalance this server anymore is the one that is played for countless hours.
think about it. and when you have thought about it. ask yourself, am I this person? what can I do to change my actions for the community I claim to care about?
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Post by soulfien on Jun 1, 2005 22:32:24 GMT -5
;DThis page is great!;D
Broad: Rules Lawyer Roleplayer
Narrow: Addict Statmonkey Drifter
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Misha Aogail
Old School
Player of: Torian Burrfoot, Misha, Whisper, and Oriana Gant
Posts: 324
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Post by Misha Aogail on Jun 1, 2005 22:48:02 GMT -5
Just because someone may play one character 24/7 doesn't make them a powergamer or ruin the stability of the server. Why? RP, my friend. And for the wifty site, I found out I'm an Addicted Escapist Roleplayer... Sounds oddly... Right... ;D
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Gusty
New Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Gusty on Jun 2, 2005 0:39:40 GMT -5
of course Torian is right. If a person is RP'ing constantly then there is no time limit.
I am:
macho, drill sergeant, roleplayer myself
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Post by Kolfrosta on Jun 6, 2005 5:05:54 GMT -5
Yes, that is a nifty site. But for the record, in the spice girl definition, female paladins not getting hit on?! Seems they have not played a female pally, and I get to get a chuckle once in a while to see the reaction to Shari's wedding ring. Oh, addicted, with escapist tendencies, roleplayer........after working in a factory all day, coming home covered in dirt and grime, yes, it's nice to escape for a little while after a nice shower.
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Post by kenny26 on Jun 6, 2005 17:42:04 GMT -5
rules lwayer and roleplayer in the broad categories stat monkey in the narrow catergories the rules lawyer is mostly because i'm best at memorizing the rule books for different RPGs and everyone just asks me if they don't wanna read through the books to find a rule... that site is pretty nifty and i recognice many of my players when i look at the different types (i DM for a small group of dnd players and often other games as well).
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Post by Spooks on Jun 7, 2005 22:15:43 GMT -5
I couldnt fit myself in the broad category, though the narrow one I got:
Drifter Omnigamer
THough if I HAD to choose a broad i'd go powergamer.
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Post by Booze Hound on Jun 9, 2005 0:55:25 GMT -5
Role player/Macho/Escapist and hey ! look at me a full member! and I haven't played since like feburary. See? Escapist. heh. and Whew, glad Torian said that, cause I was about to give Gusty a knuckle sandwich about that 24/7 crack. ;D Vind is my one and only I can't even see playing another character...is there a catagory for that type of player?...Character Lover?
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Gusty
New Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Gusty on Jun 9, 2005 15:31:58 GMT -5
Yes, the category is Powergamer.
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Post by Kolfrosta on Jun 9, 2005 15:36:13 GMT -5
Hmm...well, if having a preferred character to play is being a powergamer, then, I stand guilty as charged. Of course, anyone that actually fights Sharita will find she dies quite easily......right, loged?
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Post by soulfien on Jun 9, 2005 17:55:50 GMT -5
I only play one PC.... at a time.... if I get bored they are written off and deleted
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Post by Keetena on Jun 9, 2005 22:59:57 GMT -5
Ow my... so I'm powergamer too... *looks about* *shrugs* I must say I'm guilty too... now I'll need roleplay songs like those of Janis... "ball and chaaaaainnn..." . Can't I love Keetena without be a powergamer? *sniffs*
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Post by flesch on Aug 26, 2005 6:31:03 GMT -5
---->Drifter and maybe a couple other ones to boot
Anyway, I wanted to touch on some of the earlier things you said about PrCs in particular. I've heard it mentioned, and I mostly agree that if a PC wants a PrC in many cases he would have made that decision very early in his life and been working towards as a large part of his/her training.
Weapon Master for example: I played here a long long time ago when that Manshin guy or whatever was like level 4 or something (no idea where ya are now and I doubt ya remember me.) That PC was a weapon master from the second he was created...does that mean he's a powergamer? heck no!
Also....RDD (because these were the two you brought up yourself) this would almost -have- to be decided upon creation because it is something in your blood and a PC won't just decide to be one because they recieved some kind of training to do so.
If I had a powergaming pet peve it would be taking one level of any class. As for PrCs and picking stats/feats/ranks to be good at what you do...face it....nobody wants to put a serious effort into mediocrity. Even people who build in a weakness that hurts them in one area have their niche and that niche is enough to make them feel like a hero so they can enjoy their character.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Aug 26, 2005 9:50:02 GMT -5
I would wholly agree with you, except for when a RDD or weapon master suddenly stops becoming what they trained to be. i.e. Joe the Bard has been taking levels and skills so that he can become a Red Dragon Disciple. Joe's backstory includes something about a tale that mentions there possibly being dragon blood in him. So then Joe takes RDD levels. But magically, at his tenth level of RDD, he stops taking RDD levels and resumes taking bard or some other class ... to me this is what the problem is. Wouldn't bother me one bit if Joe continued to take RDD levels. It's when he stops RPing his character and uses some cheesy excuse IC to explain why his dragon blood "ran out". And I totally agree that Manshin is a prime example of what a weapon master should be. Many times have I seen him RP his bond with his weapon. In fact, it is so extreme that sometimes my character thinks that Manshin has some weird fetish for his sword. However, I would raise an eyebrow at any character that roleplayed being a prestige class and then all of a sudden began taking other levels. Prestige class is something your character worked towards in life, something they wish to define themselves as. How can your character stop pursuing this way of life, do something else, and then pick it up again (ie. take a level of blackguard, pick up a level of rogue, and then resume taking blackguard levels) ? And I know there are IC excuses for all these things, it just doesnt make sense that if, IRL, I go to school to become an electrical engineer, I do that for awhile, I go back to school and get my masters in environmental science, and then I go back to electrical engineering. Why get my masters if I am not even going to use it? I guess I would do it if it gave me some bonus feats . But that would be powerlifing wouldnt it? That seems backwards doesnt it? But then again, I guess there are people out there like that...
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Manshin
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Post by Manshin on Aug 26, 2005 12:33:18 GMT -5
ahh, shucks. Gee thanks guys. *goes back into a dark corner to pet Korfuji*
I agree with you Quad, you should stick with your class, even after you get all the goodies out of it. On the other hand, I do intend to take more rogue levels with Manshin eventually (If I take more levels) but I will always come back to weaponmaster. Part of Manshin's character is his stealth ability and ambush sense. In my opinion, it is a valid choice to level in a class you practice the skills from. Manshin uses all of his rogue abilities nearly as often as he uses his fighting abilities, so it only makes sense that he take levels in them now and then. So long is there is good reasons to sidetrack from the presigue class, I dont see any problem, I just hate when people milk the class for its best ability, and then move on to the next most advantageous class.
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Post by Spooks on Aug 26, 2005 14:08:58 GMT -5
*shrug* What about Clotho? She is a monk... who will be taking levels of Assasin... and once she learns how to do what she needs to do, and become an efficient killer, she will want to take levels in monk again.
Monk levels to gain focus, discipline, and combat skill.
Assasin levels to hone her killing abilities, making her combat skills more efficient.
Monk levels to then like... settle it down. Not so much weaken it, but to further can focus and control of her body.
OOC, I have not clue when I'll take Assasin levels, and I dont know when I'll switch back to monk.
2 big deterents for Clotho being a power build.
1. Improved Saving throws on poison for a monk is a waste.
2. I don't have the attention span/memory to be able to memorize when or what exactly I wanna do... I am still in the phase: "Dodge? ZOMG!!1!!one!! I gould TOTALLY jack my AC To a BILLION!!1!!!"...
I see something that looks cool... I give it a shot... Like Clotho taking Skill focus Dodge... to realize that bonus doesnt add to AC.
So yes I am a powergamer... But I'm dumb and make hasty decisions when leveling... thus shooting my PGing self in the foot.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Aug 26, 2005 14:44:13 GMT -5
The point is that as long as you dont take assassin to level 9 just so you can get improved invis, or level 5 so you can get darkness, then I dont see it as a problem for you to alternate back and for between assassin and monk. It is when you stop taking levels just because you got all the "goodies" as Manshin put it.
BTW To all those that read this thread, I am not a DM and what I think REALLY doesnt matter. These are just personal opinions.
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Post by soulfien on Aug 26, 2005 15:50:14 GMT -5
actually, quad, if you read up on some of the PnP PRC's you'll notice that they only allow so many levels to be taken. Take Archmage for instance- there are only 5 levels in archmage. You can't take anymore, but you can continue to take mage levels after those 5 levels are finished. It's not about how many levels you take beyond 10 or whatever.
Who's to say that RDD can't continue to become a better singer? Improve on his bardic abilities. Does his blood finally spring forth and dictate how he shall run his life? RDD is more a race kit if you ask me.
Taking levels in fighter after you've taken 10 levels in weaponmaster doesn't bother me either. Taking levels in wizard or something does. But taking 10 levels in fighter, 10 in weaponmaster, and then another 10 in fighter? There's nothing wrong with that. Unless you switch to a bow or a different weapon class, then you are still bonded to that original weapon and seeking to master it in every way possible.
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Manshin
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Post by Manshin on Aug 26, 2005 16:35:50 GMT -5
Of course you are correct Spooks, I dont think anyone would question that, but Quad isnt refering to those who have good reasons for switching classes. He is talking about when a player says, boy I really want ambidexterity and two weapon for my city-boy monk, so Ill take a Ranger level in order to get it.. that way I dont have to wait until level 9. However, this is a subject which has been beatin into the ground a million times. Most FRC players are responsible enough to bare such things in mind.. those who dont, well, I suppose it shows. A question though... why is a bonus save vs. poison a useless ability? I hate being poisoned! I hate wasting gold on the potions to cure it, and being weakened and slowed when I am trying to get away from tough enemies... I would love that ability. I mean.. not every ability can be on par with improved criticle, but it certainly doesnt seem like a useless ability to me.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Aug 26, 2005 16:35:53 GMT -5
So in PnP you wouldnt mind if someone took the PrC Archmage just to get 1 High Arcana feat?
The point of this discussion was to monitor yourself in how you took levels of Prestige Classes. I'm not saying that you cant go back to another class once you start taking prestige classes, I was saying that it seems odd to me if you take just enough levels of the class to get the added benefits of the prestige class.
In fact, I would be very happy if someone took 10 levels of weapon master, as there is little to gain beyond the 7th level. And seeing a RDD with 11 levels would make me happy as well.
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Manshin
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Post by Manshin on Aug 26, 2005 16:40:10 GMT -5
well... stick around a few more years and you will have your tenth level weapon master.... if I live.
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