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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 9, 2008 22:34:46 GMT -5
So does a persons alignment dictate their personality or does their personality dictate their alignment? Hmmm, chicken or the egg... Honestly, I think you'll find examples of both. In general, I think certain beliefs that we're exposed to from childhood on do shape our actions and outlooks in life. From that perspective, you could say that alignment dictates personality if you define alignment as an ethos. However, some people chose to follow a different path, write off previous beliefs, rebel against the norm, etc.. That would play into the personality shapes alignment category. I don't think it's cut and dry. No worries about the hard questions. They're good questions to think about. In childhood your beliefs and perceptions that you use to make decisions are formed. It is when these perceptions and beliefs are changed that people make these drastic life choices. Going back to stable times in a characters life, where does the personality trait loyalty fall into the alignment system of DnD? If you are consistently loyal to your family what alignment will you end up being? Or in case it is the egg instead of the chicken... What alignment(s) would you have to be in order to consistently be loyal to your family? Actually if you answer both questions do you get the same result(s)?
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Feb 9, 2008 22:36:50 GMT -5
Don't forget either, some of the players here are either wealthy enough, or privilidged enough to have gotten ahold of items that only someone of their alignment can use. If they don't have sufficient UMD skill to bypass this restriction, not acting in their alignment and getting shifted out of it..can lead to making a valued item totally useless.
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Post by Charon's Claw on Feb 9, 2008 22:45:42 GMT -5
Yeah, the way I see it... your character is a person, and isn't stuck with their alignment at all. Your character acts like they would act, the alignment follows the character. If it's a Paladin with a paladin's upbringing.. well chances are he/she isn't going to do anything that is evil to have the alignment follow the character. So.. to me it doesn't matter, your character is a person with free will and choices. The alignment just says what your character chooses most often. So they don't have to maintain their alignment it is just what it happens to be at the moment based off of a series of choices? What did they ask themselves when making choices? It can't be what would someone of my alignment do or it would never change right? Yes.. this is right... it would be what the person decides based on their own codes. Normally mister paladin wouldn't kick the child on the side of the road, yet mister blackguard may just for kicks.. ((haha kicks)) Anyway, it won't sporadically change. Normally a person of good morals, who sticks with other people of good morals, will most likely tend to make "good" choices. A total change can be if the person has an epiphany or some such thing like that, or it can be gradual, like say if mister good cleric wants to save mister bad man's soul, and is often in a bad crowd, influenced by bad things. He will most likely go bad due to the circumstances that go on in his life at that time. Not an absolute, but most likely he will. I guess what I'm trying to say, is it's like life. You grow up in a hard crowd you're going to be more chaotic and evilish doing those things and often being exposed to them. Works the other way for a "good" crowd to. I try to just look at the person and their deeds as a whole, and the alignment just labels them that way.
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Post by EDM Entori on Feb 9, 2008 22:47:01 GMT -5
well one would assume that you wish to ACT a certain alignment when you pick your initial, and then your actions as you the player make them would shift should your characters mind/actions make that shift. right I mean we all start off picking an alignment that represents past and the immediate present of the character, as his or her tale grows longer and he make certain choices, then his actions receive shifts, its not a wake up call per say, but its an acknowledgment's of events. most of all Alignment should be dynamic not static, always changing. IMHO if thats fine with your character sure and dandy, if its not when then he'll find this realization somehow, and work the other way. its no way a guide line or limit unless you choose it to be. Otherwise its a reflection of character, and characters actions. No fair repeating other people. *trys to come up witha new question* So you pick an alignment based on how you want to act. How do you determine how you want to act so you can pick an alignment? HAH! well its a process . x+x = alignment, its the resultant I mean no one is going to pick a character they don't want to play out so yes they -originally- pick an alignment based on what they foresee their character being, this is due to the characters back story, gods you want to follow, class. Its based on preference of you the player. Your going to pick a character you can have fun with, weather that is being a redwizard of thay, evil necromancer, or righteous paladin. it doesn't really, I think Rping you alignment is a sort of 'means I'm doing it right' thing. I know if Dms gave out points based on every choice/ action they see.. to me would inspire roleplay more, cause you know someones watching, without the advancement. like darkharp said not really sure it does matter, just a common debate. but what does matter is how that changes based on actions and how a person Rp's. thats all people expect people of certain alignments to act a certain way oocly and when they don't they get confused. basicly it doesn't really matter, but to me it matters, for the simple fact without alignment there is no alignment conflicts, and thus no conflict, no conflict means frc IMHO takes a step towards being a droning server, without thought given to how your alignment will change with actions, means you give no feeling to a character.. I -think- thats what I'm trying to say, I don't think I phrased it well enough I'll repost when the words come to me. Ent So lets see if I've got this right: 1. Alignments determine if you are role-playing correctly 2. Without alignment shifts you have less incentive to role-play 3. People have expectations on how certain alignments should act 4. Without alignment you can't have conflict 5. Without thought about how your character's actions will effect your alignment your character loses feeling (personality?) I'll come back to this after you tell me if I understood you correctly. 1. Alignments – yes and no, alignments as they change show if your character is being noticed, and if they are in the realm of what you want, if not change it, is yes end script 2. not that without alignment shifts (as they are rare) just more alignment shifts would give more incentive to rp. Think when a Dm spots your character and goes ‘hey I can really feel that, or that’s good RP’ *clicky* 80/100 250 XP well instead of going, well I gave that guy Xp yesterday so ..*moves on to new character*, ((I’m not a dm just as I would think they would like balance of who they give out rewards to)) they can go here, that was a (chaotic, evil, lawful, good) act, *clicky* 1 point. Player goes, oh yay! I’m being noticed and is excited he got some attention from a DM. hells I get like a giddy school girl when a DM even emotes as an NPC. 3. yes people expect certain alignments to act a certain way, a chaotic character, to maintain his ‘chaotic’ will not go along with lawful characters in an lawful action, unless it serves number 1 that’s what chaotic is, the alignment title is ‘rebel’ that said that character should have a chaotic purpose to going along with said lawful characters. Lawful in this example could be a servant of the crown, or someone helping a devote monk. Chaotic I would suggest is helping your friend because you want your friend to succeed. Lawful would be helping your friend cause duty, or you personal law /code follows such. 4. what I meant here is without good evil chaotic/lawful elements there is no conflict, not saying if you remove the chaotic tag, that there would be no alignments, just would depend a lot more on how everyone sees a PC. I mean this is based on PnP. Which of course includes alignments, removing such makes FRC no longer PnP. That is how I understand it I’ve never played PnP, just got the basic theory down. 5. Alignment is a direct result of actions. While we have to thinking of this in as character development its something hard coded to fall back to, this is still a game, and having numbers or something to base how you ‘play’ off of is always nice, to keep yourself from becoming too self absorbed, I can’t spend my days going how does Entori/Elvith/Kusin feel about this, I like to be to fall back on alignment and other stereo types. While not a perfect system, and while I do have some characters flaws/ traits that I stick to. I like playing out the ‘role’ of what the source demands, with a few differences. It is after a game and should be treated as such. yeah I think alignment mostly should be dynamic as per static, ones not always prone to making the right choices. (player wise) nor will you character always fit the perfect alignment bill. I mean I like lawful tenancies, as its the by the book pilot coming through in my RP.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Feb 9, 2008 22:50:49 GMT -5
I'm not sure it -does- matter all that much. I'm not really sure how common an alignment shift is on FRC, but I think it's generally percieved as a reward/punishment for actions for/against your alignment when you recieve good or evil points. Again, I am not sure how often people get hit with evil points..I think it's alot more common than being given good points though (at least in my experience it has been), as the only good points I've ever recieved I had to ask for, and I am given evil points on pure DM initiative . My point in my most recent post on the topic was just to put out there some guidelines from official source, not really to start another debate about it. I thought maybe -if- there were any goodguys out there recieving evil points..this could be a guide to maybe help them stop recieving evil points for violence related actions. By the same token, I also thought that it might inform some characters just what 'good' is in relation to when exactly you draw your sword and have a go at someone, and expect not to have an alignment shift for repeatedly stepping outside those bounds. These thoughts have been in my mind for years and I figure it is time to just talk about it. Why would anyone view an alignment shift as a punishment or a reward? Don't punishments have to hurt you? How does changing your alignment hurt you? Unless you have a class dependant upon alignment. I use the term punishment and reward for lack of better words. A player who strives for his character to be 'good' is not going to be happy that his character has commited an act that a DM judges to be deserving of evil points. Likewise, a character striving to play the most vile scum of the earth isn't going to be real thrilled that a DM has interpreted something they did as an act deserved of good points. On the other hand...getting points in favor of what they are trying to stay true to, does also come across as something posative for that character so it seems more like a 'reward' in that case. I think the general perception most people have of my PC is that he is evil, and thats fine with me, after all you are judged by the company you keep. The reality is, my character doesn't often break laws, and has only rarely engaged in something that is by DnD definition, true evil. *grins* As a true neutral....it's all punishment for me! You DMs are cruel and evil people!
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 9, 2008 23:08:57 GMT -5
[quote author=kasin board=general thread=1202582660 post=1202614353 Honestly? As far as shifts are concerned, I think small shifts for the normal day to day ups and downs are probably overkill. As you stated, the PC would probably feel bad and try not to make the same mistake. Small variations and inconsistancies are human nature, and part of the learning process.
Conversely, if a PC makes consistant or drastic decissions that lead away from their stated ethos, larger shifts would probably be more representative of a consistant change in outlook.
Now for the big question. Mechanics issues aside, is it necessary to shift alignment at all? In a perfect world, where players realistically portray the outlooks of their PC's, probably not. For many players, I do think shifts can be helpful though.
For lack of a better word I consider alignment a tool. A PC's alignment mostly serves as a meter showing the player how well their RP fits in with their PC's desired outlook. As a player the shift can serve either as a reminder that I'm not sticking to my PC's ethos and I need to get back IC, or as Panros pointed out in another post, a shift can also confirm that my pc's actions had the desired outcome. In both situations, it actually helps me the player, better portray what makes my PC tick.[/quote]
Alright new question then. Since the shift has to occur from a DM or a script. How can a DM know if you are sticking to your ethos to know if they need to shift you? Is it only your actions that count or does not acting when you could have count as well?
We can watch your actions to see what you do. We can also look at your character sheet to see what your alignment is.
However we will not know WHY you did what you did. And alignments were written vaguely enough that not every situation is covered. Not to mention there are times when a problem that has been set up has no solution available that agrees with your alignment.
For sake of this discussion lets say a city of 1,000 people are captured and taken to the Zhent keep. One is pulled out from the rest and told to pick three people and kill them and 50 will go free. If he doesn't kill the three personally all 50 will be killed by the Zhents. This will be repeated until everyone is dead or free. If he attacks the guards he will be slain and 100 others will be slain as well before a new person is brought out to do the same deed.
This person will either personally kill 60 people so that 940 can go free, he can watch 999 die and himself be killed, or he can get himself and 100 others killed and let another be forced to take his place making this decision. Would he get evil points? He has been given a no win situation. (yeah DM's can be evil) ;D
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 9, 2008 23:10:52 GMT -5
Don't forget either, some of the players here are either wealthy enough, or privilidged enough to have gotten ahold of items that only someone of their alignment can use. If they don't have sufficient UMD skill to bypass this restriction, not acting in their alignment and getting shifted out of it..can lead to making a valued item totally useless. Once again I'm not talking about game mechanics here. This is more of a role-play discussion. I do understand that alignment matters in game mechanics.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 9, 2008 23:15:50 GMT -5
Yes.. this is right... it would be what the person decides based on their own codes. Normally mister paladin wouldn't kick the child on the side of the road, yet mister blackguard may just for kicks.. ((haha kicks)) Anyway, it won't sporadically change. Normally a person of good morals, who sticks with other people of good morals, will most likely tend to make "good" choices. A total change can be if the person has an epiphany or some such thing like that, or it can be gradual, like say if mister good cleric wants to save mister bad man's soul, and is often in a bad crowd, influenced by bad things. He will most likely go bad due to the circumstances that go on in his life at that time. Not an absolute, but most likely he will. I guess what I'm trying to say, is it's like life. You grow up in a hard crowd you're going to be more chaotic and evilish doing those things and often being exposed to them. Works the other way for a "good" crowd to. I try to just look at the person and their deeds as a whole, and the alignment just labels them that way. So how is this "code" different than an alignment? Doesn't this code fit in one of the nine alignments?
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 9, 2008 23:17:01 GMT -5
heehee
I feel like I'm playing 1 vs 100.
And getting to argue both sides against myself.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 9, 2008 23:36:34 GMT -5
well its a process . x+x = alignment, its the resultant I mean no one is going to pick a character they don't want to play out so yes they -originally- pick an alignment based on what they foresee their character being, this is due to the characters back story, gods you want to follow, class. Its based on preference of you the player. Your going to pick a character you can have fun with, weather that is being a redwizard of thay, evil necromancer, or righteous paladin. So you pick an alignment based on how you want your character to act. You determine that based on what back story you make up and your class. Would it be correct to say you determine your characters personality and then try to choose which alignment you think matches that personality? Matter of fact I'll repost that question to everyone now.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 9, 2008 23:37:49 GMT -5
A question for everyone that is reading this.
Do you determine your characters personality and then try to choose which alignment you think matches that personality?
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Post by Charon's Claw on Feb 9, 2008 23:48:48 GMT -5
So how is this "code" different than an alignment? Doesn't this code fit in one of the nine alignments? Code was probably a bad word.. it's more personality... and I suppose that answers that question too. I pick the alignment based on the character's personality ((which I pick first when I vision the character)).
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Post by ancientempathy on Feb 10, 2008 0:08:35 GMT -5
Religion is the most important subject I keep in mind when I make a character. There are several ways to begin the creation of a character, but religion is my most important step. Even for my characters that wouldn't consider themselves to be "religious".
An adventurers profession and actions fall-in-to a deities portfolio. Is it wrong to assume that? An adventurer's actions may reflect a certain deity.
Because of this system I go by, I try to pick an alignment that most people would likely label him by, based on his profession and actions.
If a character of mine isn't going to follow the letter of the law, but will selflessly and honorably die for that which is righteous, then I'll give him the alignment of "Chaotic Good". That is my educational guess as to what others may label him by.
Keep in mind, I am here to entertain others, and not myself. Those around my character, will help shape my character a lot. Yes, what I make him do will also have an important part in how he gets formed too.
Perhaps sometimes, during the creation of my character, I will make him develop certain ideals that I will deem "absolute", even.
--- "Never steal food from a grocer"
That statement about being absolute is said loosely. Why? Well, it just so happens that there are others out there who will likely be more charismatic than a particular character of mine, or the RP entering a character of mine and another or group of people, could prompt my character in an emotional manner to change a once absolute ideal into something new. Perhaps it might not even be a certain someone, or rather, an event. But even events are initiated by a higher-power in the DnD world, regardless if it's "natural".
---------"The once very lawful man now resorts to stealing from homes, due to him being near death on account of famine. Plague, disease, and pestilence has overrun the town, and morale dwindles in many peoples hearts, turning them in ways unfit to declare humane. Yet this man still remains strong to certain ideals, that many around him may consider good."
That once lawful man is the chaotic man I mentioned originally up above, who would never steal. His background explains the shift, because of a certain event.
Meanwhile, this same character is not religious. For whatever reason, it was within his nature to just be righteous, and it seems his destiny was meant to place him on a chaotic course...for now. He's still young, so there can still be change again. Fate will yield its final results when he gets close to death, and he then better hope he feels an affinity to a particular deity, or at the very least hope one has been paying attention to him. Otherwise it'll be a tough break for the guy in the Fugue Plane.
In the Avatar Series, the book entitled "Prince of Lies"...From memory I'll try to mention a particular event that took place. ( I don’t have the book with me at the moment so I cant directly quote >.<).
There was a man within a snowy region that was tricked by the Prince of Lies to do something for Cyric’s sheer amusement. Prior to this, his actions had reflected that of Torm’s personality it seems (if I read correctly).
If someone reflects Torm, the Loyal Fury, what alignment could possible make that person? - LG, LN, NG. It just so happens that, those are the alignments a cleric of Torm can be.
Now, in the big world of divine politics, the mans actions had made him "fall from the grace of Torm", you could say. The mans actions and position had constituted in his death too.
Upon opening his eyes, he was within the Fugue Plane, where Cyric still had reign over its operation. He came before Cyric, where Cyric declared the man to be his puppet. Torm suddenly barged into Cyric's palace. Pissed.
Little note about Torm...those who are true and loyal, those who are like Torm and worship him - their names are inscribed within his gauntlets that he wears. Those who are faithful can see their names within Torm's gauntlets. Guess what? He didn’t see his name because of his actions. His actions caused an alignment shift it seems.
Throughout the time in the book this man was given much time to reflect and regret his decisions. I think he was placed into the Wall of the Faithless? Interesting spot. During the mans time within this wall, I believe he experiences a shift to Neutrality.
Later on in the book too, he was forced to fight for ideals he disapproved of, and his willpower alone (I think) caused his alignment to shift yet again, back to reflect Torm. His time of reflection had a big part in this.
In the end, Torm once again appeared to the man at one point, which Torm then presented his gauntlets to the man again...The man saw his name that time, and Torm took that man home with him.
It's these stories and examples that have helped me determine the importance of alignment. What does it matter? What does matter is what happens in ones life I believe. Your story you give your character, and what experiences your character undergoes would determine your characters alignment.
That is my belief anyway. One important thing I always keep in mind is to have fun. There are many that may take a more strict approach...
"No...you must go by the ideals of a particular alignment."
That is too strict for me. That chokes even, to a degree. I like mobility, for I think it helps a character become well-rounded. When placed up against a fellow player with that thought, what happens? Well, not a whole lot. Out of respect to them I won't complain how they're undergoing the alignment process, because it's likely giving them the fun they are looking for.
But...one thing that comes to mind...Can't there be compromise? Can't someone have both a strict take on something, and be relaxed in other fields? Probably. I do my best to compromise, and this is because without compromise, then I can't hope to entertain as many as I wish to.
Fun is important =) So is understandment. I like threads like these. I've always felt I've never been good at understanding alignment though. I do my best in any case.
As for Richard's mention of family loyalty...
Well, what if someone’s family is their animal? If animals alignments are to be placed as True Neutral all the time, then does that mean that person is true neutral too? Just something I thought up =)
*patiently waits for fellow players to quote and chop his big statement up* LOL
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Post by fred on Feb 10, 2008 0:45:47 GMT -5
Do you determine your characters personality and then try to choose which alignment you think matches that personality? Yes. And I'd say more, but I'm so tired my brain isn't quite functioning. I'm sure I'd make lots of typos, and I'd lose my title as Grand High Nitpicker. So I think I'll wait until morning. Goodnight everyone *yawn*
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Post by Munroe on Feb 10, 2008 1:18:43 GMT -5
Do you determine your characters personality and then try to choose which alignment you think matches that personality? Yes. And I'd say more, but I'm so tired my brain isn't quite functioning. I'm sure I'd make lots of typos, and I'd lose my title as Grand High Nitpicker. So I think I'll wait until morning. Goodnight everyone *yawn* *stamps Grand High Nitpicker on Mouse* If a character of mine isn't going to follow the letter of the law, but will selflessly and honorably die for that which is righteous, then I'll give him the alignment of "Chaotic Good". That is my educational guess as to what others may label him by. This is really an aside to the thread but the description above is, to me, not Chaotic Good. It is Neutral Good. Neutral Good doesn't necessarily follow the letter of the law but nor do they actively oppose it. Chaotic characters, from my interpretation, have a stance that is not indifferent to lawfulness but opposed to it. The character above may actively oppose the laws, which would make him more Chaotic Good, but from what I read above he only seems Neutral Good to me.
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Post by catmage on Feb 10, 2008 1:36:58 GMT -5
A question for everyone that is reading this. Do you determine your characters personality and then try to choose which alignment you think matches that personality? My answer is yes. With Ailren, I'm constantly going over in my head what actions he's commited and placing them in how I judge the nine alignments to function, and then doing what I can (Scripted quests, donations to temples) to modify it if I think he's in need of modification. I probably think to much on alignment, but it's one of the things I really get about the game and enjoy. I like that in DnD, there's some pretty clear cut things to base morality on. It's "black and white" in a way, like how an act can be objectivly evil, like torturing for any reason, or objectivly good, like protecting a little child for no other reason than keeping them from being orc chow. But, it's also got a middle ground, the seemingly ignored neutral alignment. A person who kills someone with no warning, just because they're "evil", is not acting like a good alignment dictates, but if they're doing it because it's the most efficient means to stopping this person, then they're behaving like a neutral character, though of course too much of this thought pattern reflects evil, particularly LE's whole "The end justifies the means" mentality. For Ailren, it's fairly clear where he falls. He shows open contempt for the humanoid races, kills sentient beings for sport, and is willing to deal with any sort of being, as long as it provides amusement or benifits him in some obvious way. The fact that he won't kill children or slay someone who doesn't have some way to defend themselves doesn't change any of that, and the bad things he does are far more numerous than his unselfish good deeds. He's evil. For neutrality on the Law/chaos scale, things are a little harder to figure, since it really depends on the character. Ancient E mentioned something about absolutes that a character has, and I generally think along lines of, the more "absolutes" a person has, the more lawful they are. Ailren for example, spends a good deal of time in the Lawful category, because he's got a lot of rules that, for him, are clear cut. However, he's also got a chaotic streak in that he'll violate that code with little hesitation if it means his life or the life of one of the few people he likes. He's generally pretty strict on his own honor code, but with the exception of three or four of those rules, he'll bend or break that code in order to win, and won't feel any real need to repent, since his deity is nothing if not practical. Thus, he's N. Just my long winded thoughts on the subject, since I wanted to play too in the whole sound of one hand clapping discussion.
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Post by brian333 on Feb 10, 2008 1:39:25 GMT -5
In D&D, and specifically in Faerun, alignment is a tangible thing. It's not a mythos or code or ethic, it's a real force that can and does affect the material world. It's as important as magic.
A character's alignment causes environmental interactions much as a magnetic field invisibly affects iron, and avoids affecting most everything else. It is detectable, manipulable, and affects the PC both directly and indirectly, such as by allowing or disallowing use of items or entry to places, and sometimes alters the effects of spells or spell-like powers.
A PC receiving alignment shifts would definately be aware of it, though perhaps not in a way that allows the PC to say, "My alignment just shifted 1 point!" A cleric or any devine spellcaster would be acutely aware of the shift, but he may justify his actions, much as the preacher who paid 100 lions for sexual favors might say, "I was weak, she took advantage of me!"
How does this affect play? That depends on how important alignment is to your character concept. A paladin who justifies mass murder might feel his diety abandoned him rather than the other way around, for example. A monk who steals for what he considers a good cause may undertake meditation to understand his error, repent of it, and focus his sfforts on regaining his lost mental tranquility. Opposite reactions to the same situation, neither of which is necessarily a wrong choice, lead to opposite results. The mass-murdering paladin may become a blackguard out of hubris while the monk-thief may humbly reclaim his mental serenity, or any of hundreds of other options.
The question isn't, "Is it important," but, "What do you do with it?" Ultimately, alignment is a roleplay tool. It helps the player define how a PC _should_ act, and when he chooses to have his character act differently it allows the player to roleplay the response, including, if necessary, permanent alignment shifts to keep up with the character's current personality.
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Post by ancientempathy on Feb 10, 2008 1:59:46 GMT -5
If a character of mine isn't going to follow the letter of the law, but will selflessly and honorably die for that which is righteous, then I'll give him the alignment of "Chaotic Good". That is my educational guess as to what others may label him by. This is really an aside to the thread but the description above is, to me, not Chaotic Good. It is Neutral Good. Neutral Good doesn't necessarily follow the letter of the law but nor do they actively oppose it. Chaotic characters, from my interpretation, have a stance that is not indifferent to lawfulness but opposed to it. The character above may actively oppose the laws, which would make him more Chaotic Good, but from what I read above he only seems Neutral Good to me. I also had in mind that he'd likely oppose the laws more in due time after his first theft, due to "seeing things in a different perspective". I had opposition to the law in mind, but I guess I forgot to mention it =) Sorry about that! And I like Catmages' statement about absolution and lawfulness. That possible connection had never really occured to me . It makes sense at this point. I suppose as I look back and reflect on my post, when I did mention absolution, I did follow through with a lawful example...Perhaps I've just had a slap of the obvious? lol //I'll pause any posts here for now. It's 2 am and its getting harder to think >.<
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 10, 2008 9:23:14 GMT -5
My answer is yes. With Ailren, I'm constantly going over in my head what actions he's commited and placing them in how I judge the nine alignments to function, and then doing what I can (Scripted quests, donations to temples) to modify it if I think he's in need of modification. So you go out of your way to adjust your alignment to where you think it should be? If you only have three or four rules that are absolute and are willing to break all others, how do you figure you are neutral and not chaotic? If it had only been two rules would it have been chaotic then? If it had been five would you have been lawful? What process did you use?
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 10, 2008 9:42:08 GMT -5
In D&D, and specifically in Faerun, alignment is a tangible thing. It's not a mythos or code or ethic, it's a real force that can and does affect the material world. It's as important as magic. So where can I go pick up a handful of it? If mythos had a game mechanics rule set would it be a tangible thing too? So you are saying game mechanics has meaning in role-play. Areas and items can be made without an alignment restriction. If we remove them does that mean they and the thousands of items that do not have an alignment restriction no longer have any meaning in your role-play? Do items and areas need alignment restrictions? So if a character is aware when he recieves an alignment shift does this mean if he recieves no shift he is completely unaware that he is acting outside his alignment? Unless a DM is on making a shift or unless a script is shifting the person there is no awareness even if the same action caused a shift last week? Is it how he should act or a summation of how he has acted? If it is an indication of how he should act doesn't that mean you are failing every time you recieve a shift? Or if it is an indication of the past does it act as a series of road signs letting you know where you are now and which way you are heading? How does personality fit into this tangible alignment? Does a character's personality change?
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Post by fred on Feb 10, 2008 9:52:25 GMT -5
Right, I'm more awake now, and capable of typing.
Choosing an alignment at character creation is a tool that I use in creating my character's personality. It forces me to examine, before I start to play her, her views on morality. When choosing an alignment, I think about her personality, her views, and then choose the alignment I think is closest in describing those views.
Once I start playing her, it is possible her views, and thus her alignment, may undergo shifts.
NWN only allows us to place our character's alignment at one of nine discrete points on what is actually a continuous grid. I seldom think of my NWN characters as fitting exactly where the character sheet says they are. Mouse's is off, for example, as a result of NWN's discrete outlook and a number of scripted shifts in game: and I play her where *I* think she is, not where the character sheet says she is.
Unlike CatMage, I don't try to fix her character sheet to match my internal notion of where she is. I actually don't know how I would do that. I just play my internal notion of her alignment.
I use her alignment in making decisions about how she will react to things. Someone invites her to go kill some orcs: how does she justify this to herself? I have her think about it before she goes out, and check it against her alignment. Mouse witnesses a crime. Does she make a report to the authorities? Her alignment guides her in that decision. Someone mentions that they know a place full of beautiful deadly traps, but you have to break into someone's house to get them. Does Mouse go get the traps? Her alignment is a guide.
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Post by EDM Entori on Feb 10, 2008 10:12:37 GMT -5
well its a process . x+x = alignment, its the resultant I mean no one is going to pick a character they don't want to play out so yes they -originally- pick an alignment based on what they foresee their character being, this is due to the characters back story, gods you want to follow, class. Its based on preference of you the player. Your going to pick a character you can have fun with, weather that is being a redwizard of thay, evil necromancer, or righteous paladin. So you pick an alignment based on how you want your character to act. You determine that based on what back story you make up and your class. Would it be correct to say you determine your characters personality and then try to choose which alignment you think matches that personality? Matter of fact I'll repost that question to everyone now. Yes, but I continued to say, I expect alignment to change as said character interacts with the world (server in our case) and those in it. thus I think aligment is a resultant of actions. When you make a character you pick an alignment based on their past events. as that list becomes longer ( i think of it like those history feats in NWN 2) your alignment will shift there in as a result of actions.. Like karma! I'm repeating myself again to answer your question, yes I do choose my alignment based on a personality that I want, but that saying, personalities can change. Ent
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Post by Lokarn on Feb 10, 2008 13:08:35 GMT -5
Of course alignment matters. Why else would items,classes,spells and abilities be restricted by it? Why would it be in the game, both PnP and NwN if it didn't? I use my alignment to give me a base I can choose actions around. When an action falls too far away from my current alignment, it should be adjusted to show that. I have noticed though, on Cormyr, just about every time you take an item you gain a chaotic point. My neutral evil PC has become Chaotic evil in one house robbing. as I gained 1 point per item I stole from each container. Kind of annoying as I never gain any Lawful points for any reason what so ever. But I digress. Essentially, alignment gives each player that core set of values to start from, whether they follow them absolutely or not is up to them, and the RP situations that happen around them. It is in NWN because it is in DnD. Why is it in DnD when there are other role-playing games out there that don't have alignment? So you base your actions off of your alignment. So do you believe there are only nine choices in any situation? Since all animals are true neutral you can assume that every animal you meet will react the same way right? After all they don't make moral decisions that effect their alignment. 1. Alignment is in DnD because the creators used it as another rule set to add to the game. I assume they wanted the DM to be able to limit peoples actions to add more control for them. As DnD was pretty much the first rpg out I assume the next game makers didn't want to copy, or perhaps thought alignment was not needed. 2. I said in my post, I use the alignment to "Base" my actions around. Think of a perfect circle centered on true neutral. When you select your alignment that circle is stretched in the direction of your alignment. For instance, Lawful good. That pulls the opposite side of the circle away from the opposite alignment, chaotic evil. I imagine that circle changing and moving all around constantly based on actions. I also imagine that as you gain more and more Lawful/good points the circle starts to shrink in and get smaller and smaller thus pulling it more to lawful good and far from chaotic evil. Eventually the circle only contains lawful good, and parts of the alignments touching that box of the alignment table. Now, I think of that circle as "Defining my previous actions, and suggesting what is MOST likely to happen in any situation" The circle is NOT excluding the possibility of other actions, just telling me which ones I have taken most often and which ones would be most likely. As far as only nine choices.... umm no. There are infinite possibilities of choices within each alignment. A paladin could just as likely smite a murderer as hand him in to the law. A thief could just as likely rob you as not. Granted those are small examples but you should get the idea this post is too long already. 3. Based on my above example in terms of how I see alignment you can only assume every animal can react in any way possible as his true neutral alignment encompasses equal parts of each alignment. ** On a side note, I believe because every creature in DnD has to have an alignment, due to the creators rules, animals were given true neutral as it allows every choice possible. However in my opinion they should have no alignment, as they have no moral compass.
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Post by Lokarn on Feb 10, 2008 13:21:56 GMT -5
On a side note, I can tell that you are just going to keep asking question after question about anything that is said. No answer will suffice. I'm guessing this is a conversation where you are looking for a bit of an argument, and to see where people stand on the subject. I'm ok with that, and I am just pointing out what my take is on this subject, no feelings at all negative or positive. I am just setting up my next sentence. I won't post again in response, I'd rather be playing my alignment in game
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Feb 10, 2008 13:33:14 GMT -5
Just as a quick side note: If you feel your character deserves an alignment shift, there's nothing stopping you from asking a DM to do the shift for you. If anything they may be even interested to hear why you, as a player, feel you deserve the shift. To the topic: When it comes to creating characters I never start with alignment. I always go first with concept, then personality, then history, then class. If that class requires that my character be of a particular alignment then I tweak the personality and history to try and match it. However, I never tweak it to the point that it completely leaves my original concept. If the class doesn't require a particular alignment then I just go with which one I think matches the best. That is probably the only time that alignment really matters for me. Beyond that it's the characters personality that over rides everything else. Sometimes I don't find out till playing the character down the line that the alignment I've chosen doesn't quite match and I'll have someone bump him/her a few points in whatever direction I need it in. Sometimes the very situations my characters find themselves in causes them to change their world view so drastically that they shift a full alignment on the spot... and sometimes I don't realize it until much later. But this is just me and the way I like to do it. To put it all in one bucket? If you toss out all mechanics requirements, alignment doesn't matter much to me. The character's personality is far more overriding then that. The character's motivations and why they do what they do can make a PC what and who it is. Just saying that since your Paladin is Lawful Good that he/she would never lie to anyone really isn't enough. Why won't your character lie? Were they raised in an upright family that held honor in words in high regard or did your character have a past event in their lives where lying lead to a severe consequence? That comes across far more interesting to me then just saying he/she is Lawful and the sourcebooks say Lawful Good doesn't lie. Anyway, this is just my view on it. *tosses in her $29.99 plus shipping and handling* Oh, and Rich? Playing Devil's Advocate can be so fun sometimes.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 10, 2008 14:10:15 GMT -5
On a side note, I can tell that you are just going to keep asking question after question about anything that is said. No answer will suffice. I'm guessing this is a conversation where you are looking for a bit of an argument, and to see where people stand on the subject. I'm ok with that, and I am just pointing out what my take is on this subject, no feelings at all negative or positive. I am just setting up my next sentence. I won't post again in response, I'd rather be playing my alignment in game Correct. This is just to get people thinking about why they have certain feelings about alignment. More than I just picked it. Personally I agree with some of the remarks here even though I'm playing devil advocate against them as well. If I were to explain my thoughts on alignment you could go through this thread and find were many answers given here by those involved actually match up. But does my opinion on alignment matter? HAH! I couldn't resist another question!
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 10, 2008 14:12:49 GMT -5
I think I'll let this thread die down now but it is some food for thought.
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Panros
Old School
Sneak Attack - Reach out and touch someone.
Posts: 479
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Post by Panros on Feb 10, 2008 15:43:13 GMT -5
Alignment is a guideline to how one's character should be. In the end it's really the gratification of seeing results of your character's actions through changes of alignment or how your character's actions don't change it. Does it matter? It does but not as much as we make it out to be, ha, ha. Is there an alignment your character should be? You are given free choice of alignments when you make the character up unless the class you choose has restrictions. Do you need a DM shifting your alignment to tell you if you are role-playing correctly? Does your alignment only change with your actions? Or does your reasoning for your actions make a difference? At creation, match the character to one of the alignments he fits most unless a class restricts it otherwise. Alignment is a guideline to how a person's character should behave. If one has a Chaotic Good character he can start RPing him as Lawful Good character. He is still a Chaotic Good character unless the DM change the character's alignment. The character's actions determine his alignment. Actions speak louder than any reasons. A character's actions change alignment. DMs change alignments based on a character's actions. The alignment is a check up on how one roleplays a character. If a person roleplays his character down a different path and is clearly not behaving within his alignment then his alignment should be changed to reflect the characters actions. It is the gratification of seeing how the actions of a character affect his alignment, whether by maintaining it or changing it. Compare it to one of those stickers you got on your 100% classwork back in grade school. It meant really little in reality, but to you it meant a lot.
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Post by Grozer on Feb 10, 2008 17:25:54 GMT -5
I had totally planned to stay out of this since I figured there was no right answer but thought I would chime in after all. For me alignment is a measure or indicator of how my characters has done in the past and for the most part I do NOT let that guide his actions on a go foward basis. So when creating a character I start with a idea of who the person is and some of his background THEN decide how that would result in an alignment. If the result doesnt match what I was going for, i.e. I was aiming for a cleric of a certain God but the character I come up with doesnt have the right alignment, I tweak things. For me that is a mechanics thing. Is there an alignment your character should be? You are given free choice of alignments when you make the character up unless the class you choose has restrictions. Do you need a DM shifting your alignment to tell you if you are role-playing correctly? Does your alignment only change with your actions? Or does your reasoning for your actions make a difference? At creation, match the character to one of the alignments he fits most unless a class restricts it otherwise. Alignment is a guideline to how a person's character should behave. If one has a Chaotic Good character he can start RPing him as Lawful Good character. He is still a Chaotic Good character unless the DM change the character's alignment. The character's actions determine his alignment. Actions speak louder than any reasons. A character's actions change alignment. DMs change alignments based on a character's actions. Sorry if this sounds like I am picking on you, Panros but I have heard this reasoning over and over and I wonder if anyone sees the contradiction in it? First statement is "Alignment is a guideline to how a person's character should behave" then "The character's actions determine his alignment." I guess its the chicken or the egg concept but I think this thought process is prelevant because DnD chooses to have players pick an alignment up front. But in effect as many agreed its the characters background to be considered before doing the official roll-up so alignment isnt a guide... it is not what drives your character... its a measure of your character and a poor one at that. The alignment is a check up on how one roleplays a character. If a person roleplays his character down a different path and is clearly not behaving within his alignment then his alignment should be changed to reflect the characters actions. It is the gratification of seeing how the actions of a character affect his alignment, whether by maintaining it or changing it. Compare it to one of those stickers you got on your 100% classwork back in grade school. It meant really little in reality, but to you it meant a lot. I will agree with the fact that alignment is a guage on RP but personally I would never see it as a . How can you? Its not really a reward or punishment, it just reflects decisions your character made as initially pointed out. Going one step farther alignment points should be handed out based on character actions irregardless of whether the character is going against their chosen alignment or completely embracing it, i.e. a Paladin deserves good points when they do good, just as they deserve chaotic points if deemed appropriate. How do you know a certain action is not within the realm of a character's alignment? I am going to use Ranan as an example rather than someone else's character. I think its safe to say most people know ooc his alignment and what he represents. There was a plot in Isinhold a long time back in which a cleric of Talona unleashed a magical disease.... virtually every PC in Isinhold got diseased. Per the DM the disease slowly crippled each PC... Ranan was in town but actually saved everytime Ainur tried to cripple him. Ranan tried to leave town and let the place rot... until Torian got zapped. Because someone worth saving was affected, Ranan went and made a deal with a Lathanderite cleric bringing back a cure to save everyone. Suffice it to say he couldnt ONLY save Torian, there were reasons for that. On the surface the people that saw him save Isinhold called Ranan a hero.... others begrudgingly thanked him. In the end if you didnt see the underlying, here is the key, motivation one might assume Ranan was a good guy. He did commit a good act and was subsequently shifted for it.... but did that mean he was no longer what he was at the core? No. You really cant see everything thats going on... we all have our own perceptions of what each and every alignment represents but maybe that really isnt the question. Maybe the real question is "does it matter that you are being true to your character?" For Rich: Alignment does matter, more than mechanics. But it must be used in context and as a measurement of the past nothing more. What should be more important is what I stated above. RPing a character means basing it on a set of beliefs, experiences, values, ethos, dogma (for those clerics and paladins) etc.
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Post by Charon's Claw on Feb 10, 2008 18:05:14 GMT -5
ShadowCat said what I think, a whole lot better than I could say it
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