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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 9, 2008 13:44:20 GMT -5
I have a question for the players of FRC. There are threads discussing different aspects of alignment, debating what alignment someone would have, what people of different alignments would do and other issues surrounding alignment. What I would like to know is something completely different.
Can anyone tell me if there is any reason (other than game mechanics like what classes you can take, smite good/evil, protection from good/evil, etc.) why it matters what alignment you have? How much does your alignment really matter?
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Feb 9, 2008 13:56:40 GMT -5
I'm not sure it -does- matter all that much. I'm not really sure how common an alignment shift is on FRC, but I think it's generally percieved as a reward/punishment for actions for/against your alignment when you recieve good or evil points. Again, I am not sure how often people get hit with evil points..I think it's alot more common than being given good points though (at least in my experience it has been), as the only good points I've ever recieved I had to ask for, and I am given evil points on pure DM initiative . My point in my most recent post on the topic was just to put out there some guidelines from official source, not really to start another debate about it. I thought maybe -if- there were any goodguys out there recieving evil points..this could be a guide to maybe help them stop recieving evil points for violence related actions. By the same token, I also thought that it might inform some characters just what 'good' is in relation to when exactly you draw your sword and have a go at someone, and expect not to have an alignment shift for repeatedly stepping outside those bounds.
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Post by EDM Entori on Feb 9, 2008 14:15:35 GMT -5
it doesn't really, I think Rping you alignment is a sort of 'means I'm doing it right' thing.
I know if Dms gave out points based on every choice/ action they see.. to me would inspire roleplay more, cause you know someones watching, without the advancement.
like darkharp said not really sure it does matter, just a common debate.
but what does matter is how that changes based on actions and how a person Rp's. thats all people expect people of certain alignments to act a certain way oocly and when they don't they get confused.
basicly it doesn't really matter, but to me it matters, for the simple fact without alignment there is no alignment conflicts, and thus no conflict, no conflict means frc IMHO takes a step towards being a droning server, without thought given to how your alignment will change with actions, means you give no feeling to a character..
I -think- thats what I'm trying to say, I don't think I phrased it well enough I'll repost when the words come to me.
Ent
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Post by kasin on Feb 9, 2008 14:33:17 GMT -5
I view alignment shifts as direction arrows on the outlook/moral compass of your pc. They're an indication of whether or not your pc is following the ethos/ direction that was invisioned when you created them, and force the players to think about the actions of their pc's.
Can pc's change? Sure, that's part of the development cycle, but as in RL, some people struggle with their own moral codes and direction. Those shifts are what force the player to consider that struggle and decide that either the PC's outlook is changing and go with the shift, or make a decission to tow the line and make more appropriate decissions.
I think there's more to this, but for some reason the coffee isn't working and I can't find the clarity I'm looking for.
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Post by EDM Entori on Feb 9, 2008 14:39:19 GMT -5
yeah *points to the above* there you go!
I beleive that really Dm's should be handing this out more so then XP, Xp gift is nice, but this helps you see where your character is going, without these shifts, you have no idea if your "on track" for what you want.
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Panros
Old School
Sneak Attack - Reach out and touch someone.
Posts: 479
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Post by Panros on Feb 9, 2008 14:45:18 GMT -5
Alignment is a guideline to how one's character should be. In the end it's really the gratification of seeing results of your character's actions through changes of alignment or how your character's actions don't change it.
Does it matter? It does but not as much as we make it out to be, ha, ha.
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Post by kasin on Feb 9, 2008 15:06:46 GMT -5
Additional thoughts..
Does it matter? Well, it depends on the PC I think. For devout pc's it should matter quite a bit. Clerics and certain other pc's have specific dogma's or codes they're required to follow. A negative shift,(defined as away from the alignment of their god or ethos), should be very important to the PC and player.
For clerics and some lawful types, it's a wakeup call that your actions aren't following the tenants of your faith or ethos and whether you feel guilty over your actions, receive a sign from your god, or however you want to RP it, the pc should be aware that it's not a positive thing if they wish to continue serving/ following that diety/ ethos. It's a choice they have to make.
The big thing is, the shifts force players to consider their pc's actions. Some PC's may not be as concerned depending on their outlook so it won't be that important to them, however it should be very important to others.
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Myth
Old School
Retired FRC DM
The Myth
Posts: 686
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Post by Myth on Feb 9, 2008 17:10:02 GMT -5
Ideally if you ask me, it shouldn't matter at all. Remaining true to your character should be more important. If you keep to that, even if your paladin becomes a blackguard everything is fine. As long as that was driven by a series of events in which your pc acted like they would.
Addition: alignment shifts would be ooc knowledge if I am not mistaken. Shouldn't they be treated as such and hence not force any reconsiderations? Food for thought.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Feb 9, 2008 17:20:11 GMT -5
Ideally if you ask me, it shouldn't matter at all. Remaining true to your character should be more important. If you keep to that, even if your paladin becomes a blackguard everything is fine. As long as that was driven by a series of events in which your pc acted like they would. Addition: alignment shifts would be ooc knowledge if I am not mistaken. Shouldn't they be treated as such and hence not force any reconsiderations? Food for thought. Alignment shifts are ooc knowledge yes, but they have some very absoloute IC consequences..for example, your paladin turning into a blackguard. While they are ooc knowledge, your character probably has some idea of what sort of acts 'stain the soul' so to speak. For instance, torture, using deadly poison, worshipping beings such as fiends who are evil incarnate. While you won't know 'hey my alignment will shift if I do this' you probably have a good idea that commiting these vile acts is fairly damning.
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Post by Charon's Claw on Feb 9, 2008 17:33:13 GMT -5
Yeah, the way I see it... your character is a person, and isn't stuck with their alignment at all. Your character acts like they would act, the alignment follows the character. If it's a Paladin with a paladin's upbringing.. well chances are he/she isn't going to do anything that is evil to have the alignment follow the character. So.. to me it doesn't matter, your character is a person with free will and choices. The alignment just says what your character chooses most often.
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Post by Lokarn on Feb 9, 2008 17:40:11 GMT -5
Of course alignment matters. Why else would items,classes,spells and abilities be restricted by it? Why would it be in the game, both PnP and NwN if it didn't?
I use my alignment to give me a base I can choose actions around. When an action falls too far away from my current alignment, it should be adjusted to show that.
I have noticed though, on Cormyr, just about every time you take an item you gain a chaotic point. My neutral evil PC has become Chaotic evil in one house robbing. as I gained 1 point per item I stole from each container. Kind of annoying as I never gain any Lawful points for any reason what so ever. But I digress.
Essentially, alignment gives each player that core set of values to start from, whether they follow them absolutely or not is up to them, and the RP situations that happen around them.
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Post by EDM Entori on Feb 9, 2008 17:49:52 GMT -5
well one would assume that you wish to ACT a certain alignment when you pick your initial, and then your actions as you the player make them would shift should your characters mind/actions make that shift.
right I mean we all start off picking an alignment that represents past and the immediate present of the character, as his or her tale grows longer and he make certain choices, then his actions receive shifts, its not a wake up call per say, but its an acknowledgment's of events.
if thats fine with your character sure and dandy, if its not when then he'll find this realization somehow, and work the other way.
its no way a guide line or limit unless you choose it to be. Otherwise its a reflection of character, and characters actions.
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Post by EDM Neo on Feb 9, 2008 18:08:04 GMT -5
I have noticed though, on Cormyr, just about every time you take an item you gain a chaotic point. My neutral evil PC has become Chaotic evil in one house robbing. as I gained 1 point per item I stole from each container. Kind of annoying as I never gain any Lawful points for any reason what so ever. But I digress. Now that I can sympathize with. But that's a different topic, I don't really have much to add on this one.
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Post by kasin on Feb 9, 2008 20:42:11 GMT -5
I stand by my post. It's dependent upon the PC as to whether or not it's important. In RL, some people let their ethos/code/morals determine their actions, others let their actions dictate their ethos. No different IG.
Example. *no flames it's just an easy example*
-Pastor Jim goes to the big city for a convention. After having a few drinks in the hotel lounge, Paster Jim meets Miss March. Some conversation transpires and Pastor Jim gives Miss March 100 lions for personal services.
*pastor Jim's actions have shifted his alignment 1 point toward evil*
Boom, there's the shift. Does Pastor Jim see the yellow text? No, but he's devout and he knows that in accordance with his ethos, what he did was wrong and he feels really bad. There's the RP. He repents and is forgiven and moves on with his life. Vowing never to repeat the same mistake.
This PC's feelings are that his ethos governs his actions and he strives to live up to that ethos, thus the shift is important to him.
- Billy Bob goes to a tractor convention in the big city. After a few drinks in the hotel lounge, he meets Miss March. Some conversation transpires and Billy Bob gives Miss March 100 lions for personal services.
*billy bob's actions have shifted his alignment 1 point toward evil*
There's the shift again, does Billy Bob see the yellow text. Hell no, but Billy Bob lives his life for the moment. He knows some people think what he did was wrong, but honestly, he really doesn't care what they think. What he really thinks is that he wishes he had another 100 to spend.
This PC obviously doesn't care much about the shift, therefor it isn't important.
The examples are fairly simplistic, but they demonstrate that it's up to the PC as to whether or not the shift matters. They still have free will, and choice. But their personalties and particular life views dictate what is and isn't important to them. It also shows that even though the PC's don't see any yellow text, as Darkharp pointed out before, they're both smart enough to realise something transpired. The difference is in how they chose to react to it.
Cheers all.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 9, 2008 21:03:55 GMT -5
Additional thoughts.. Does it matter? Well, it depends on the PC I think. For devout pc's it should matter quite a bit. Clerics and certain other pc's have specific dogma's or codes they're required to follow. A negative shift,(defined as away from the alignment of their god or ethos), should be very important to the PC and player. For clerics and some lawful types, it's a wakeup call that your actions aren't following the tenants of your faith or ethos and whether you feel guilty over your actions, receive a sign from your god, or however you want to RP it, the pc should be aware that it's not a positive thing if they wish to continue serving/ following that diety/ ethos. It's a choice they have to make. The big thing is, the shifts force players to consider their pc's actions. Some PC's may not be as concerned depending on their outlook so it won't be that important to them, however it should be very important to others. Actually the tenants of your faith may be followed by several alignments. Domga and alignment are seperate concepts.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 9, 2008 21:07:32 GMT -5
They still have free will, and choice. But their personalties and particular life views dictate what is and isn't important to them. So does a persons alignment dictate their personality or does their personality dictate their alignment?
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Post by kasin on Feb 9, 2008 21:09:50 GMT -5
Additional thoughts.. Does it matter? Well, it depends on the PC I think. For devout pc's it should matter quite a bit. Clerics and certain other pc's have specific dogma's or codes they're required to follow. A negative shift,(defined as away from the alignment of their god or ethos), should be very important to the PC and player. For clerics and some lawful types, it's a wakeup call that your actions aren't following the tenants of your faith or ethos and whether you feel guilty over your actions, receive a sign from your god, or however you want to RP it, the pc should be aware that it's not a positive thing if they wish to continue serving/ following that diety/ ethos. It's a choice they have to make. The big thing is, the shifts force players to consider their pc's actions. Some PC's may not be as concerned depending on their outlook so it won't be that important to them, however it should be very important to others. Actually the tenants of your faith may be followed by several alignments. Domga and alignment are seperate concepts. Meh, my bad, poor choice of wording.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 9, 2008 21:12:03 GMT -5
Don't worry. I'm going to ask hard questions of everyone even if I agree with them. This is more of a thinking exercise.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 9, 2008 21:18:26 GMT -5
I'm not sure it -does- matter all that much. I'm not really sure how common an alignment shift is on FRC, but I think it's generally percieved as a reward/punishment for actions for/against your alignment when you recieve good or evil points. Again, I am not sure how often people get hit with evil points..I think it's alot more common than being given good points though (at least in my experience it has been), as the only good points I've ever recieved I had to ask for, and I am given evil points on pure DM initiative . My point in my most recent post on the topic was just to put out there some guidelines from official source, not really to start another debate about it. I thought maybe -if- there were any goodguys out there recieving evil points..this could be a guide to maybe help them stop recieving evil points for violence related actions. By the same token, I also thought that it might inform some characters just what 'good' is in relation to when exactly you draw your sword and have a go at someone, and expect not to have an alignment shift for repeatedly stepping outside those bounds. These thoughts have been in my mind for years and I figure it is time to just talk about it. Why would anyone view an alignment shift as a punishment or a reward? Don't punishments have to hurt you? How does changing your alignment hurt you? Unless you have a class dependant upon alignment.
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Post by kasin on Feb 9, 2008 21:18:29 GMT -5
They still have free will, and choice. But their personalties and particular life views dictate what is and isn't important to them. So does a persons alignment dictate their personality or does their personality dictate their alignment? Hmmm, chicken or the egg... Honestly, I think you'll find examples of both. In general, I think certain beliefs that we're exposed to from childhood on do shape our actions and outlooks in life. From that perspective, you could say that alignment dictates personality if you define alignment as an ethos. However, some people chose to follow a different path, write off previous beliefs, rebel against the norm, etc.. That would play into the personality shapes alignment category. I don't think it's cut and dry. No worries about the hard questions. They're good questions to think about.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 9, 2008 21:25:16 GMT -5
it doesn't really, I think Rping you alignment is a sort of 'means I'm doing it right' thing. I know if Dms gave out points based on every choice/ action they see.. to me would inspire roleplay more, cause you know someones watching, without the advancement. like darkharp said not really sure it does matter, just a common debate. but what does matter is how that changes based on actions and how a person Rp's. thats all people expect people of certain alignments to act a certain way oocly and when they don't they get confused. basicly it doesn't really matter, but to me it matters, for the simple fact without alignment there is no alignment conflicts, and thus no conflict, no conflict means frc IMHO takes a step towards being a droning server, without thought given to how your alignment will change with actions, means you give no feeling to a character.. I -think- thats what I'm trying to say, I don't think I phrased it well enough I'll repost when the words come to me. Ent So lets see if I've got this right: 1. Alignments determine if you are role-playing correctly 2. Without alignment shifts you have less incentive to role-play 3. People have expectations on how certain alignments should act 4. Without alignment you can't have conflict 5. Without thought about how your character's actions will effect your alignment your character loses feeling (personality?) I'll come back to this after you tell me if I understood you correctly.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 9, 2008 21:39:01 GMT -5
I view alignment shifts as direction arrows on the outlook/moral compass of your pc. They're an indication of whether or not your pc is following the ethos/ direction that was invisioned when you created them, and force the players to think about the actions of their pc's. Can pc's change? Sure, that's part of the development cycle, but as in RL, some people struggle with their own moral codes and direction. Those shifts are what force the player to consider that struggle and decide that either the PC's outlook is changing and go with the shift, or make a decission to tow the line and make more appropriate decissions. I think there's more to this, but for some reason the coffee isn't working and I can't find the clarity I'm looking for. You are correct in the fact that people change. Things happen in everyones life that makes for drastic life changes. So lets assume they can happen to characters too. (now for the hard question) What about day to day life when the character isn't making a change. Alignment in DnD is a very vague and overall general view of life. Wouldn't a character naturally do what is acceptable to him? Or if they felt bad about what they did wouldn't they not repeat it? Do they need an alignment shift to follow their beliefs?
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 9, 2008 21:42:54 GMT -5
Alignment is a guideline to how one's character should be. In the end it's really the gratification of seeing results of your character's actions through changes of alignment or how your character's actions don't change it. Does it matter? It does but not as much as we make it out to be, ha, ha. Is there an alignment your character should be? You are given free choice of alignments when you make the character up unless the class you choose has restrictions. Do you need a DM shifting your alignment to tell you if you are role-playing correctly? Does your alignment only change with your actions? Or does your reasoning for your actions make a difference?
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 9, 2008 21:45:37 GMT -5
Ideally if you ask me, it shouldn't matter at all. Remaining true to your character should be more important. If you keep to that, even if your paladin becomes a blackguard everything is fine. As long as that was driven by a series of events in which your pc acted like they would. Addition: alignment shifts would be ooc knowledge if I am not mistaken. Shouldn't they be treated as such and hence not force any reconsiderations? Food for thought. So if you are true to your character it doesn't matter what alignment shows up on your character sheet? How can you be true to your character if you don't care about your alignment? How do you know you are being true to your character? What determines how your character will respond to his surroundings?
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 9, 2008 21:51:13 GMT -5
Ideally if you ask me, it shouldn't matter at all. Remaining true to your character should be more important. If you keep to that, even if your paladin becomes a blackguard everything is fine. As long as that was driven by a series of events in which your pc acted like they would. Addition: alignment shifts would be ooc knowledge if I am not mistaken. Shouldn't they be treated as such and hence not force any reconsiderations? Food for thought. Alignment shifts are ooc knowledge yes, but they have some very absoloute IC consequences..for example, your paladin turning into a blackguard. While they are ooc knowledge, your character probably has some idea of what sort of acts 'stain the soul' so to speak. For instance, torture, using deadly poison, worshipping beings such as fiends who are evil incarnate. While you won't know 'hey my alignment will shift if I do this' you probably have a good idea that commiting these vile acts is fairly damning. This is going into areas where it is game mechanics. Other than that why would a character who was true to himself be a Paladin at one point in his life and a Blackguard at another point in his life unless what he is being true to changed? And if he has changed that much what would it matter if he had become a Blackguard? Isn't that a legitimate choice in DnD?
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 9, 2008 21:56:08 GMT -5
Yeah, the way I see it... your character is a person, and isn't stuck with their alignment at all. Your character acts like they would act, the alignment follows the character. If it's a Paladin with a paladin's upbringing.. well chances are he/she isn't going to do anything that is evil to have the alignment follow the character. So.. to me it doesn't matter, your character is a person with free will and choices. The alignment just says what your character chooses most often. So they don't have to maintain their alignment it is just what it happens to be at the moment based off of a series of choices? What did they ask themselves when making choices? It can't be what would someone of my alignment do or it would never change right?
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 9, 2008 22:05:49 GMT -5
Of course alignment matters. Why else would items,classes,spells and abilities be restricted by it? Why would it be in the game, both PnP and NwN if it didn't? I use my alignment to give me a base I can choose actions around. When an action falls too far away from my current alignment, it should be adjusted to show that. I have noticed though, on Cormyr, just about every time you take an item you gain a chaotic point. My neutral evil PC has become Chaotic evil in one house robbing. as I gained 1 point per item I stole from each container. Kind of annoying as I never gain any Lawful points for any reason what so ever. But I digress. Essentially, alignment gives each player that core set of values to start from, whether they follow them absolutely or not is up to them, and the RP situations that happen around them. It is in NWN because it is in DnD. Why is it in DnD when there are other role-playing games out there that don't have alignment? So you base your actions off of your alignment. So do you believe there are only nine choices in any situation? Since all animals are true neutral you can assume that every animal you meet will react the same way right? After all they don't make moral decisions that effect their alignment.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 9, 2008 22:12:34 GMT -5
well one would assume that you wish to ACT a certain alignment when you pick your initial, and then your actions as you the player make them would shift should your characters mind/actions make that shift. right I mean we all start off picking an alignment that represents past and the immediate present of the character, as his or her tale grows longer and he make certain choices, then his actions receive shifts, its not a wake up call per say, but its an acknowledgment's of events. if thats fine with your character sure and dandy, if its not when then he'll find this realization somehow, and work the other way. its no way a guide line or limit unless you choose it to be. Otherwise its a reflection of character, and characters actions. No fair repeating other people. *trys to come up witha new question* So you pick an alignment based on how you want to act. How do you determine how you want to act so you can pick an alignment? HAH!
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Myth
Old School
Retired FRC DM
The Myth
Posts: 686
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Post by Myth on Feb 9, 2008 22:15:09 GMT -5
So if you are true to your character it doesn't matter what alignment shows up on your character sheet? How can you be true to your character if you don't care about your alignment? How do you know you are being true to your character? What determines how your character will respond to his surroundings? I have my own weird maybe way of rping. Whenever I log a character on, in a way I let myself get a feel of him/her, you could say I play them rather instictively. So, I rarely consider what their current alignment is. Lawful good doesn't just define my paladin for example but rather just describes them to some extend. I, based on their background, situation at hand, and most importantly how I feel they would act depending on who they are and what's important to them decide. I hope that made some kind of sense...
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Post by kasin on Feb 9, 2008 22:32:33 GMT -5
I view alignment shifts as direction arrows on the outlook/moral compass of your pc. They're an indication of whether or not your pc is following the ethos/ direction that was invisioned when you created them, and force the players to think about the actions of their pc's. Can pc's change? Sure, that's part of the development cycle, but as in RL, some people struggle with their own moral codes and direction. Those shifts are what force the player to consider that struggle and decide that either the PC's outlook is changing and go with the shift, or make a decission to tow the line and make more appropriate decissions. I think there's more to this, but for some reason the coffee isn't working and I can't find the clarity I'm looking for. You are correct in the fact that people change. Things happen in everyones life that makes for drastic life changes. So lets assume they can happen to characters too. (now for the hard question) What about day to day life when the character isn't making a change. Alignment in DnD is a very vague and overall general view of life. Wouldn't a character naturally do what is acceptable to him? Or if they felt bad about what they did wouldn't they not repeat it? Do they need an alignment shift to follow their beliefs? Honestly? As far as shifts are concerned, I think small shifts for the normal day to day ups and downs are probably overkill. As you stated, the PC would probably feel bad and try not to make the same mistake. Small variations and inconsistancies are human nature, and part of the learning process. Conversely, if a PC makes consistant or drastic decissions that lead away from their stated ethos, larger shifts would probably be more representative of a consistant change in outlook. Now for the big question. Mechanics issues aside, is it necessary to shift alignment at all? In a perfect world, where players realistically portray the outlooks of their PC's, probably not. For many players, I do think shifts can be helpful though. For lack of a better word I consider alignment a tool. A PC's alignment mostly serves as a meter showing the player how well their RP fits in with their PC's desired outlook. As a player the shift can serve either as a reminder that I'm not sticking to my PC's ethos and I need to get back IC, or as Panros pointed out in another post, a shift can also confirm that my pc's actions had the desired outcome. In both situations, it actually helps me the player, better portray what makes my PC tick.
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