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Post by HeatherRae on Aug 4, 2007 18:26:42 GMT -5
Eh...
See the thing is, being good doesn't mean striking down "evildoers." It doesn't mean putting them down. It doesn't mean calling them names. It doesn't mean being vicious or cruel or unfair to them.
In my opinion, being good means doing what is right all the time. Even when you don't want to. Even when it hurts you.
Being good does not mean the ends justify the means. Just because you know someone is evil does not mean that suddenly they can be treated in a foul or cruel way. There are always consequences to your actions, even if you don't know what those consequences are.
Now, I play a Neutral Good Cleric of Lathander. Lathander is a god of hope, of new beginnings, and of light (among many other aspects). I have chosen to aspect my character to these things. Other followers of the Morninglord may choose to follow different aspects of Lathander. Does that make them wrong? No. However, one of the things that neither my character nor myself can understand is why it is that so many good people never bother to even try to pull ostensibly evil characters out of the darkness they reside in.
My character literally spent months trying to pull what many would call the single most evil character on the server out of the darkness he's in, to bring him back to the light. She didn't succeed, but at least she tried. She tried even though she was low level (and he was epic), and even though few, if any, agreed with her. She almost lost her life to so-called "good" people as a result, and was judged by several to be evil - even though the entire time her focus and purpose was in service to her god, and even though her god favored her for it.
Now recently, she's been forced to take a more militant stance as in-game situations have developed, to the point of advocating and pushing through a resolution for her church condemning the actions of several influential but (sorry, Phelly!) evil groups.
There is conflict going on. But I really don't think that anyone wants outright war. I mean, what good will that do? Innocent people will be hurt, possibly badly, it could wreck the economy of the kingdom, etc, etc, and so forth. So...yeah, it's there, it's just not with swords and bows. Yet.
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Post by Kronos on Aug 4, 2007 18:41:36 GMT -5
Well heres my two cents. Picture this happening in the real world. Your a good person, who has been wronged by someone. So badly so that the person who wronged should be severely punished, but because of the laws loopholes he is able to walk freely. (So far it seems the same thing can and does apply to the server). Now lets say you decide to take the matter into your own hands. What does that make you? A vigilante at best, a criminal at worst. My point is good characters don't just kill people because they deserve it. They respect the law and their own morales too much to do such extreme things, even if they know it would help the world. This then leads on to the Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, Neutral Good aspects but I'm too tired to go into that
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mourndarkv
Proven Member
If love is the brightest light, what doth it's shadows cast?
Posts: 157
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Post by mourndarkv on Aug 4, 2007 19:43:02 GMT -5
"No. However, one of the things that neither my character nor myself can understand is why it is that so many good people never bother to even try to pull ostensibly evil characters out of the darkness they reside in."
I am sorry that you feel you are the soul beckon of light to our evil doers Heather. Take Tremain for example. He has tried to help evil come into the light with a new hope. He and Phelzaron even have had and do still have an amicable relationship. He and Marklar also had a deep friendship, and he was one of the many hands that where trying to guide Mark back to the Light.
However, there comes a time when the evil done by said evil doer outweighs the value of the attempt to save said persons life, then a choice must be made. It doesn't mean that one persons life is more or less valuable then another's. It just means the path of destruction and evil must at some point come to an end. This is for the betterment of the general population.
The value of one life does not outweigh that of the many. Pain, suffering and the like cannot be looked away from with the hopes of saving an individual soul, without regard for the obvious and blatant evil deeds for very long without hurting a good person soul on some level.
At a certain point, you are either following the edicts of your faith, or you are harboring the evil. It's a tricky path, to try to convert evil to good. I think thats why many do not bother. You reach a point where you have to make that choice. Can they be saved? Or must they be destroyed? Tremain reaches that decision easier then most. After all, he is a Paragon of Good, like most Paladin's should be. (Despite what everyone else believes Paladins are, or how they are played.. they really aren't "Holy Smiters" to the end.). So allowing evil to run rampant for months at a time isn't really something he could look away from, if he has the ability to bring it to and end. (Which, most of the time he doesn't)
I see many, many "good" people turning away from evil. In fact, it is part of why I don't really play Tremain anymore. Much of FRC's community is fence setting on the aspect of good or evil. I've seen Blackguards, and evil folk get more positive reaction from good people then a Paladin.
You're not alone, no matter how much you may think you are. It's just some people make decisions about who can be saved, and who cannot more quickly then others. As good people, it is our judgement to decide when that is, and as holy folk.. our Gods should be guiding us as a faith, or as an individual on how we come to those decisions. There ARE other good people out there.. trying to make a difference.
Anyway, thats my two cents on that.
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Post by HeatherRae on Aug 4, 2007 21:03:05 GMT -5
"No. However, one of the things that neither my character nor myself can understand is why it is that so many good people never bother to even try to pull ostensibly evil characters out of the darkness they reside in."I am sorry that you feel you are the soul beckon of light to our evil doers Heather. Goodness, Mourn...did I say I was the only one? Or that no one tries? No, I should hope not - that would make me an incredibly self-centered person, which I hope I'm not. No, I know that there are others who make the effort. But, my point was that most "good" characters don't try. See, the thing is, it is the harder road. And I realize that that is why most don't try to take it. But it's an important road, imo.
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Post by Kolfrosta on Aug 4, 2007 21:14:33 GMT -5
Since my main character was mentioned, I'll comment. Further on Grozer mentions the conversion of one of Sharita's squires, Visitant. Sharita may not be one of the "Kill 'em em all and send then to thier gods" types. She never was. This doesn't mean if something happens right in front of her she will not get involved, and she will use the least amount of force required to protect those who may be endangered. (If that means having to draw a blade, she will.) Sharita and Ranan have traded words, warnings, challenges, but never faced off one on one, but there is most certainly the chess game happening. Both characters are lawful, but for Sharita her lawfulness is bound by the law of Cormyr or Isinhold or the edicts of her Church. She approaches the "battle" with more a sense of get proof, get information...a "throw them in jail or have them exiled" approach. She would rather let something be done lawfully, that the public can see...not some murder on a lonely road. Definately not her style. She still waits patiently for Ranan to make his mistakes and hopes to capitalize on them. His conversion of Visitant, she has never forgotten, and yes it did bother her deeply. (No, she will not forgive him for it either.) Now, there is something I'd like to express. I feel that largely, it is the duty of clerics, to go out, spread thier faith, and convert people. That is part their calling. For the Divine Champions and Paladins, they are the defenders of thier faiths, they are the ones who get involved when conversion proves futile. They defend thier faith, thier people, and those who cannot defend themselves. I guess in short, I was just trying to say, there are ways the good guys can still "be good" without breaking the law and starting brawls in the towns of Cormyr, or killing people they meet on the road. Most of what goes on happens behind the scene, in darkened inns, or private residences out of eye sight and earshot.... But that's just my thoughts...
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Post by catmage on Aug 4, 2007 21:15:59 GMT -5
There's also the fact that not all evil doers realize they are being evil. In DnD, there are objective acts that are "good" and "evil". According to source books, torture is objectively evil, and in Fiendish Codex 2, it's one of the acts that can potentially damn a lawful good being to Hell. However, if a person tortures a person looking to find a way to stop an orc invasion from killing innocent people, while he is still doing an act of evil, he's doing it because he thinks it for good reasons. That person isn't likely to see himself as any different from the paladin going out and killing the orcs, and in fact, they might even directly serve the same mortal superior. They aren't likely to go fighting on the streets, but the torturer is still acting beyond the bounds of what is considered acceptable to a good aligned being, and the paladin would not associate with them any more than they truely had to, after learning.
That's an unusually clear cut case of the matter, but as many of the books that describe evil in the game, one can be a cold blooded killer and still beleive he's working for good. He'll still take the damage from a Smite Evil, but he'll justify or ignore such facts. That's another of the reasons evil is such an easy thing to fall into, because when people rationalize it, they can truely allow themselves to believe it's "okay".
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Post by HeatherRae on Aug 4, 2007 23:41:50 GMT -5
Now, there is something I'd like to express. I feel that largely, it is the duty of clerics, to go out, spread thier faith, and convert people. That is part their calling. For the Divine Champions and Paladins, they are the defenders of thier faiths, they are the ones who get involved when conversion proves futile. They defend thier faith, thier people, and those who cannot defend themselves. That's true! It's really hard for paladins and divine champions to convert people, if only by nature of their Alignment. Lawful Good tends to take a fairly hardline response to evildoers, with good reason. They're the thin line of good against a tide of evil, and most of their time is spent beating back said evil. Clerics *are* supposed to be the ones doing the bulk of the conversion.
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Post by brian333 on Aug 5, 2007 1:26:28 GMT -5
Good and Evil are not the only spur for conflict. (Or Law and Chaos for that matter.) Without going into details, Aria and Kasur, on the same side and part of the same organization, are currently involved in a certain level of conflict.
Alignment may determine _how_ you conflict, but is not the basis _for_ conflict by itself. Here's a hypothetical scenario where Good and Evil are on the same side: The Zhentarim, tired of constant incursions of adventurers from Isinhold, attack and lay siege to Isinhold. Redmist, fearing that the Zhents, (having bought and fielded an army,) would not be satisfied with just Isinhold, sends troops to 'help'. Cormyr, fearing Redmist domination of Isinhod should they succeed, also sends troops.
Many such examples are possible but, in essence, the story should drive the conflict, not just be a byproduct of it.
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Post by TermaForever on Aug 5, 2007 1:42:47 GMT -5
Definantly some good points going out on here.
Heather is right about how good should treat evil. While admitedly its for every good character to try and bring evil out of darkness, you would still think to see more than you do. Her efforts are the reason Adelius is Chaotic Good and not still Chaotic Evil.
Now I can tell you now that pretty much no one talking here has had much interaction with Darius. He's only level 5 at the moment, and only recently have I revived him from the ashes of my server vault.
Now on the surface he's what you would classify as stupid evil. He does dress in a particularly subtle manner. He does not act warm and cozy toward people. There is a degree of hostility to people he has no use for. He does not openly profess his faith though it isn't hard to guess when you see him. However in reality I like to think (and try to play him) as smarter and more dangerous than you might think.
As I have mentioned before, at no time is Darius's face (or for that matter any part of his skin) visible when he is arrayed in his black and red. His face always remains covered by a mask beneath his hood which I would really describe as being more like a helmet since it actually covers more than just his face. (NWN really needs a hood and mask model of sorts). And despite the fact the current political climate allows him some freedom to move about like that, he still cultivates an alternative facade. That of a kind if somewhat crazy old man.
And believe me when I say he is plotting and is making plans, some of which I already know will never happen simply because the DM's would never allow them. Doesn't stop him from plotting them though. There is a grand total of one player on this server who knows what he is plotting almost in full. In PvP any of the major 'good' characters would own him miserably (he's only level 5) but then he is smart enough to avoid getting into that sort of trouble. Vigilantes alone might be a problem for him but frankly there isn't much to do there and they really don't have a solid reason to take him down yet anyway.
So I agree that there is a lot of evil out there that not all players know about. Adelius for instance is blissfully ignorant of pretty much everything going on out there. He knows that its happening, but he doesn't know what exactly.
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spacecowboy16739
New Member
(CG) College Student 6 / Bard 8 / Rogue 2 / Mastermind 1
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Post by spacecowboy16739 on Aug 7, 2007 7:54:25 GMT -5
Also keep in mind that the two are never nearly as clear-cut as we would like... By trying to break up what was developing into a fight and lead two people to a peaceful solution (an action suitable for his CG alignment), one of my characters ended up severely irritating one of the participants, actually getting brought down to Injured by her (which left him completely clueless as to what he'd done wrong -- as a lifetime warrior, he's clueless when it comes to civilized people, especially women).
Good intentions can lead to evil results, and vice versa (although the latter's much less likely). Your alignment doesn't always determine the end product of your actions.
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Post by TermaForever on Aug 7, 2007 11:17:14 GMT -5
There as something said (in character actually) about how evil can do good to achieve evil means (working your way into hearts and minds and then coming back and killing them all) but good cannot use evil to achieve good.
Depending on how you are playing, that right there is the dividing line between good and neutral. A neutral character may not be a person who doesn't care one way or another so much as someone who will do evil things (murder, terror, etc) to achieve a good end.
There are a thousand different ways to interpret alignment and actions and good and evil.
If someone is just so horribly overtly evil (eats a baby right in front of you) then there is no court in the land that will convict you if you make that person into a wallet.
It all depends on the circumstances at hand.
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Post by EDM Entori on Aug 7, 2007 13:28:58 GMT -5
AS for a point of High levels being the only one to do things...
HA!
edit: -milly-
..Look at that creepy little guy edward.. He's done some great RP you only hear about. Isabelle, can't be no more then level 8, VEstele well She was......lets not go there..
I find too many people are "rping" but they don't let anyone know about their thoughts or feelings,...Well you can't expect feed back if you don't put out.
Some characters are reserved, well then thats where body language and other such things WE'd see as people must come into play through Emotes,
I've seen many people *sit* in isinhold and not emote or do Anything for a full half hour, my mage has a new sneaky streak in him, as he doesn't like to be noticed too much anymore as apart of tenants of his faith, but thats beside the point.
if your in isin, and your sitting there, Go up to someone and Go hi.. and wait, most people are too imptatient, alot of people say hi to ent as hes speaking to someone or more then one, people, they need to wait for acknowledgement, he will not ignore you for no good means. hes not like that.
Sure you say that high levels do all the events and such, not so much true, just no low levels recently (those I don't see, or do stuff I'm not speaking of you) don't take the initiative to do something Rp based. or make a plot, I know I see this akkarin guy (one of sio's characters I think) hes got a pretty great character, and has evil plots going on, a bit obvious, but that in iteself could be a cover.
Theres more going on then you think, In my opinion, you either just don't see it, or havn't been looking.
95% of the time its just cause its not in isinhold, or your just not in the right place.
and thats not pointed at grokan its for anyone.
Just got to get out there and communicate.
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spacecowboy16739
New Member
(CG) College Student 6 / Bard 8 / Rogue 2 / Mastermind 1
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Post by spacecowboy16739 on Aug 7, 2007 17:23:46 GMT -5
There as something said (in character actually) about how evil can do good to achieve evil means (working your way into hearts and minds and then coming back and killing them all) but good cannot use evil to achieve good. Depending on how you are playing, that right there is the dividing line between good and neutral. A neutral character may not be a person who doesn't care one way or another so much as someone who will do evil things (murder, terror, etc) to achieve a good end. There are a thousand different ways to interpret alignment and actions and good and evil. You got it. Here's an example: in the movie Constantine, John Constantine actually drowns the female protagonist to awaken her to the world around her and the nature of her own latent powers. Obviously an Evil act... If someone is just so horribly overtly evil (eats a baby right in front of you) then there is no court in the land that will convict you if you make that person into a wallet. It all depends on the circumstances at hand. ...but between them, they're able to off the son of the Devil and stave off the end of the world -- which is certainly a Good Thing(tm). Wizards of the Coast exemplified this aspect of the battle between "good" and "evil" in their Gray Guard prestige class ( Complete Scoundrel, pg. 40). I strongly suggest anyone interested in playing a disillusioned paladin read the description of the class on pages 42-43. Personally, I tend to find my favorite characters to play somewhere in the Neutral part of the spectrum, simply because they just try to get along in a world of things and people bigger and badder than they are.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2007 0:32:52 GMT -5
. I mean take the incident with the dwarf in isinhold. Morally, he killed a few zhents good for him *pat on head*..he played with the heads, while distasteful, still banite scum... then angus came. ok..*nod nod* hand him over.. banite wants dwarf..um, that spells torture and a slow death *shity eyes* no one deserves that. you saw the lawful side, as kasur tried to diplomatically plea with angus, and you saw the chaotic side, those of us who wanted him to stay. Then in my opinion those that we're ready to toss him over, we're the Chaotic evil. and so on and so forth.. Neutrals would be the good of one is not worth the good of the many (the whole balance thing) Yeah, heh that was my dwarf.. I enjoyed that whole rp experience... my dwarf has his own secret reasons for wanting Zhents dead... and he is an evil that doesn't care about the towns well being ... as for the playing with the head, that was his evil side showing I believe and reflex dc 20 is always the deflect missiles save darn it! even if the missiles are heads heheh I especially enjoyed the final confrontation between Angus and my dwarf, I made a lucky str check and managed to snap the ropes and in a final act of defiance flung a magical dagger at Angus' face (I think it would be neat if he lost an eye or something ) of course... that got him stabbed, but he was raised.. afterwards He spend a full ooc day in the inn. This shows that pvp or pvdm or w/e is not about good vs evil and as a conflict of interests... I.e you dont need to be evil to chip down an ancient forest to build yourself a town... but im sure a local druid would have something to say about that... or locals elves perhaps
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