Bard question

[Kaelyth]

Do all bards know that they are bards? Is it feasible that a character would be a bard - and not really understand that they are one? I know not all musicians and entertainers in the FRCS are bards of course. I only ask because with Kaelyth, most of her "bardy-ness" is very spontaneous due to the wild elf heritage. She'd never use sheet music or trap a song on paper, the beauty being in the chaos inherent to the creative process itself.

I find myself wandering though, as I continue to gain more spells and casting ability, at what point would a person really start to wonder: "how am I doing this?" Granted she may not really care anyways...

Seeking others thoughts and opinions as a keep trying to develop her as a character - thanks in advance! 😊

[malclave]

I don't see why she would have to know she's a "bard", especially if she's not a minstrel or troubadour type. Maybe her wild elf tribe thinks of bards as "spirit singers" or something, rather than a profession to be studied.

[Orc Face]

Mar 2, 2022 13:51:06 GMT -5 Kaelyth said:

Do all bards know that they are bards? Is it feasible that a character would be a bard - and not really understand that they are one? I know not all musicians and entertainers in the FRCS are bards of course. I only ask because with Kaelyth, most of her "bardy-ness" is very spontaneous due to the wild elf heritage. She'd never use sheet music or trap a song on paper, the beauty being in the chaos inherent to the creative process itself.

I find myself wandering though, as I continue to gain more spells and casting ability, at what point would a person really start to wonder: "how am I doing this?" Granted she may not really care anyways...

Seeking others thoughts and opinions as a keep trying to develop her as a character - thanks in advance! 😊

So I don't think there is a right or wrong way to RP this and obviously it is your character so you can RP it as you wish as long as it makes sense to the class. I've always RP'd my character's class levels in a growing transformation. I don't see a Level 1 Paladin, as a paladin.. but more as a squire perhaps. But for your instance (Don't know your level) you could RP it as the more she plays music and songs she begins to start noticing unnatural or magical things that a mere musician wouldn't notice. Perhaps the strings on a lute doing more than make sound but echoes through a valley like someone else is playing with you. Magical flares could come from you hands when you play/sing. The bard is probably one of the most creative classes for RP next to the mage classes so be limitless.

I will soon be dabbling into bard with one of my characters and plan on RP'ing him playing a war drum that seems to boost my allies morale.

[thehatman]

Bard is a very wide class, in the long run. And lore behind it has changed significantly between different editions.

While it is good to have at least some kind of idea why character has 'bardic powers', especially when it comes to Bard Song, there isn't a strict focus on how it has to come by.
Also, as they're charisma caster, there's the whole inherent magical ability question.

Anyhow, bard can be pretty much anything that incorporates some for of art/performance with magic. An officially trained and certified bard, a street performer with knack for minor magic tricks, tribal lorekeeper who records and brings the tribal history to life in songs or storytelling, for lack of written records.


Of course, we will probably try to assimilate any promising bards we catch lounging in around and turn them into 'proper' bards.

[EDM Community Theatre]

In some instances, druids nor rangers nor clerics "know" where their divine spells come from.

[brygun]

DnD borrows language from the real world.

Bards were the travelling musicians. No magic. DnD used the name for type of profession. Actually the first bards were a triple class character requiring fighter-thief and then taking bard levels. Thats how it first appeared in the back of a book. A stand alone starter class came much later in gaming history.

Likewise for a while in early games I called my character a Champion until a later book introduced the "Champion" prestige class.

As a funny twist there is also the Rogue Scholar who takes the Rogue for all those juicy skill points and puts them into knowledge skills not lockpicking, stealth and traps.

[Kaelyth]

Thanks for all the responses to this, gives me some solid ideas and concepts to work with.

[Masterbard Alyster Darkharp]

Mar 3, 2022 15:41:34 GMT -5 brygun said:

DnD borrows language from the real world.

Bards were the travelling musicians. No magic. DnD used the name for type of profession. Actually the first bards were a triple class character requiring fighter-thief and then taking bard levels. Thats how it first appeared in the back of a book. A stand alone starter class came much later in gaming history.

Likewise for a while in early games I called my character a Champion until a later book introduced the "Champion" prestige class.

As a funny twist there is also the Rogue Scholar who takes the Rogue for all those juicy skill points and puts them into knowledge skills not lockpicking, stealth and traps.

This is the actual text regarding this from the PHB 1st ed.

Bards begin play as fighters, and they must remain exclusively fighters
until they have achieved at least the 5th level of experience. Anytime
thereafter, and in any event prior to attaining the 8th level, they must
change their class to that of thieves. Again, sometime between 5th and 9th
level of ability, bards must leave off thieving and begin clerical studies as
druids; but at this time they are actually bards and under druidical
tutelage. Bards must fulfill the requirementsin all the above classes before
progressing to Bards Table 1. They must always remain neutral, but can be
chaotic evil, good or lawful neutral if they wish.

[TrueBlueOriginal]

Mar 5, 2022 17:51:32 GMT -5 Masterbard Alyster Darkharp said:

They must always remain neutral, but can be
chaotic evil, good or lawful neutral if they wish.

Is this quote missing a comma or is the original source missing a comma? Guessing they can't be chaotic evil if "they must always remain neutral."
"but can be chaotic, evil, good, or lawful neutral if they wish" makes more sense. Basically the same TN, CN, NE, NG, LN restriction as 3.x druids.

Of course bards have changed a LOT since then, as they're no longer a divine casting class, and, at least in 3.x, they cannot be Lawful-aligned and aren't required to have a Neutral-aligned aspect.

[brygun]

The view of bards have certainly changed. Seems they were more supposed to be unbiased storytellers/singers then tied to the outer alignments. Which to me doesnt make any sense for magical singers, like couldnt an order of Templar knights have a magical singing choir?

[Masterbard Alyster Darkharp]

Mar 5, 2022 18:10:11 GMT -5 TrueBlueOriginal said:

Mar 5, 2022 17:51:32 GMT -5 Masterbard Alyster Darkharp said:

They must always remain neutral, but can be
chaotic evil, good or lawful neutral if they wish.

Is this quote missing a comma or is the original source missing a comma? Guessing they can't be chaotic evil if "they must always remain neutral."
"but can be chaotic, evil, good, or lawful neutral if they wish" makes more sense. Basically the same TN, CN, NE, NG, LN restriction as 3.x druids.

Of course bards have changed a LOT since then, as they're no longer a divine casting class, and, at least in 3.x, they cannot be Lawful-aligned and aren't required to have a Neutral-aligned aspect.

I also wondered, but this is copied directly via copy and paste from a relatively good PDF copy.

[Raven]

Mar 5, 2022 19:08:40 GMT -5 brygun said:

The view of bards have certainly changed. Seems they were more supposed to be unbiased storytellers/singers then tied to the outer alignments. Which to me doesnt make any sense for magical singers, like couldnt an order of Templar knights have a magical singing choir?

Not an official ruling My personal thoughts

I would completely agree that there could be a "singing choir". I had a bard character who portrait themselves as a lay-priestess using songs from the bard class as hymns and blessings. They were on a mission to spread the faith. It can be great fun to explore a different aspect of a character class. so why not I say

[Masterbard Alyster Darkharp]

Mar 5, 2022 19:08:40 GMT -5 brygun said:

The view of bards have certainly changed. Seems they were more supposed to be unbiased storytellers/singers then tied to the outer alignments. Which to me doesnt make any sense for magical singers, like couldnt an order of Templar knights have a magical singing choir?

Anyone can be in a singing choir, magical though? If they can be magical is another question. Bards would be rarer individuals, to the point it would be VERY difficult to form an entire choir of them. One or two members of a choir might be bards, it wouldn't be probable though. I would think it far more likely that a bardic conductor merely inspires them and gives them a bonus on their singing, the rest of a choir would likely be NPC Experts, not bards.

I would reserve something as exceptional as an all bard choir, for like the church of a bardic power.

It's like having an army that are all actual fighters with character levels, or a holy order who had an army to muster of hundreds of -actual- Divine Disciples and Paladins. PC levels are -powerful- far beyond the NPC expert classes.

All that aside, it would do no good to have an actual choir of bards, only the first bard to use their inspiration would matter in NWN or PnP mechanics. Bardsongs don't bolster each other, cancel each other out, or anything like that, the first one to go into effect is the one that matters, characters or NPCs affected by a bardsong (or curse song) aren't subject to another of the same affect until the bardsong expires, you can't use curse song twice on the same enemies in the same encounter (or maybe even day).

[Masterbard Alyster Darkharp]

Mar 5, 2022 19:08:40 GMT -5 brygun said:

The view of bards have certainly changed. Seems they were more supposed to be unbiased storytellers/singers then tied to the outer alignments. Which to me doesnt make any sense for magical singers, like couldnt an order of Templar knights have a magical singing choir?

I think the original source is missing a comma. The bard appears to have always been linked to neutrality from 1st edition on (not sure on 2e offhand), but in 3.x they must be neutral, the same as in 1st edition when the bard was something of a "prestige class" though that name wouldn't be applied to a class with a prerequisite that required a class combo to achieve for many years yet. In , bards have never formed religious orders in that way (maybe not never but very rarely), they have always, since inception, been tied instead to colleges and academic institutions, which in my view is far more appropriate.

There is nothing to say some bards couldn't make an alignment shift and join a religious order, but they would be ex-bards at that point, and they would most likely leave their college.

[TrueBlueOriginal]

Mar 5, 2022 20:17:23 GMT -5 Masterbard Alyster Darkharp said:

Mar 5, 2022 19:08:40 GMT -5 brygun said:

The view of bards have certainly changed. Seems they were more supposed to be unbiased storytellers/singers then tied to the outer alignments. Which to me doesnt make any sense for magical singers, like couldnt an order of Templar knights have a magical singing choir?

I think the original source is missing a comma. The bard appears to have always been linked to neutrality from 1st edition on (not sure on 2e offhand), but in 3.x they must be neutral, the same as in 1st edition when the bard was something of a "prestige class" though that name wouldn't be applied to a class with a prerequisite that required a class combo to achieve for many years yet. In , bards have never formed religious orders in that way (maybe not never but very rarely), they have always, since inception, been tied instead to colleges and academic institutions, which in my view is far more appropriate.

There is nothing to say some bards couldn't make an alignment shift and join a religious order, but they would be ex-bards at that point, and they would most likely leave their college.

In 3.x, the alignment restriction on bards is that they be non-lawful, not that they be neutral.  Bard alignments in 3.x can be NG, CG, N, LN, NE, and CE. 

Multiple listings in Faiths and Pantheons indicate that clerics of some faiths (particularly Chaotic faiths) often multi-class as bards. Examples include Sunite clergy ("Sunite clerics tend to multiclass as bards, heartwarders (see Chapter 4), or rogues."), Lliiran clergy ("Lliirans frequently multiclass as bards."), and Sharessan clergy ("Many clerics multiclass as bards.").  All of these multiclass combinations are viable with no alignment changes.  Oghma IS True Neutral and his clergy also often go bard ("Oghma's clerics often multiclass as bards and sometimes as wizards or loremasters."). But because Oghma allows clergy of ANY alignment, his Lawful clergy can't multiclass as bards.  (Which is funny, since bards are a part of his portfolio.)  These are just examples of clerics that often multiclass as bards.  I'm sure there are more.  I just thought of these four first. 


Of course my own most played character is a bard/rogue/divine champion [of Sharess] (though she was trained by tutors, they were associated with a local school), and my oldest character is a bard/cleric [of Lathander]/divine champion [of Lathander].  (Though in the case of the latter, she considers herself more of a dilettante than a practicing bard.  Lathander's clergy don't often multi-class as bards, but they're not restricted from doing so if they're not Lawful-aligned clergy.) 

[Masterbard Alyster Darkharp]

Mar 5, 2022 21:03:46 GMT -5 TrueBlueOriginal said:

Mar 5, 2022 20:17:23 GMT -5 Masterbard Alyster Darkharp said:

I think the original source is missing a comma. The bard appears to have always been linked to neutrality from 1st edition on (not sure on 2e offhand), but in 3.x they must be neutral, the same as in 1st edition when the bard was something of a "prestige class" though that name wouldn't be applied to a class with a prerequisite that required a class combo to achieve for many years yet. In , bards have never formed religious orders in that way (maybe not never but very rarely), they have always, since inception, been tied instead to colleges and academic institutions, which in my view is far more appropriate.

There is nothing to say some bards couldn't make an alignment shift and join a religious order, but they would be ex-bards at that point, and they would most likely leave their college.

In 3.x, the alignment restriction on bards is that they be non-lawful, not that they be neutral.  Bard alignments in 3.x can be NG, CG, N, LN, NE, and CE. 

Multiple listings in Faiths and Pantheons indicate that clerics of some faiths (particularly Chaotic faiths) often multi-class as bards. Examples include Sunite clergy ("Sunite clerics tend to multiclass as bards, heartwarders (see Chapter 4), or rogues."), Lliiran clergy ("Lliirans frequently multiclass as bards."), and Sharessan clergy ("Many clerics multiclass as bards.").  All of these multiclass combinations are viable with no alignment changes.  Oghma IS True Neutral and his clergy also often go bard ("Oghma's clerics often multiclass as bards and sometimes as wizards or loremasters."). But because Oghma allows clergy of ANY alignment, his Lawful clergy can't multiclass as bards.  (Which is funny, since bards are a part of his portfolio.)  These are just examples of clerics that often multiclass as bards.  I'm sure there are more.  I just thought of these four first. 


Of course my own most played character is a bard/rogue/divine champion [of Sharess] (though she was trained by tutors, they were associated with a local school), and my oldest character is a bard/cleric [of Lathander]/divine champion [of Lathander].  (Though in the case of the latter, she considers herself more of a dilettante than a practicing bard.  Lathander's clergy don't often multi-class as bards, but they're not restricted from doing so if they're not Lawful-aligned clergy.) 

Ah yes, nonlawful not neutral. Yes, priests can of course multiclass as bards, but if they break alignment restrictions, they still become an ex bard. I maintain that it would be rare to find an actual choir of bards, even in religions where priests did sometimes multiclass as bards. These priests who multiclassed as bards would, as indicated, likely simply conduct groups of non magical singers, and inspire them. I always wanted to design a 'Conductor' prestige class that could coordinate bardsongs.

[TrueBlueOriginal]

Oh yeah, I don't think there are likely full choirs of bards, except perhaps if there was a bardic college devoted to a bardic deity that had its own show choir. They'd sweep all the show choir competitions. Other faiths would be pushing that bardic college choirs not be permitted in the competitions on some technicality.

Bardsongs don't stack, as you mentioned, and Cursesongs also don't stack, BUT a bard is considered to be under the effect of their own Cursesong while singing a Cursesong, so, since they don't stack, Cursesong can be used defensively by a bard to protect themselves from another bard's Cursesong.

[saintcroix]

Ting waits for "Bard Season" :-)