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Post by malclave on Jan 20, 2022 16:02:55 GMT -5
Based on the screenshot Flash posted, the swarm literally tries to eat its (helpless and conscious) target alive, and its probably not a quick death. With that in mind, there are relatively few situations I can think of where using the swarm against anything with an Intelligence rating of 1 or higher would not be an Evil act.
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Post by iamthecircle on Jan 20, 2022 16:07:48 GMT -5
Based on the screenshot Flash posted, the swarm literally tries to eat its (helpless and conscious) target alive, and its probably not a quick death. With that in mind, there are relatively few situations I can think of where using the swarm against anything with an Intelligence rating of 1 or higher would not be an Evil act. I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you there... The description says they stun their foes in preparation for them to be eaten. Which is what wizards use them for. Stun foes, then let the party kill the enemy. Only when enemies cause the attacks have I seen a swarm attack an enemy, and if it does it tends to not fare well. Usually, if its close enough to attack an enemy it'll be attacked and killed in a couple of turns. Hardly enough time for an enemy to be eaten alive, even if it were intentional on the wizard's part. And even then, that's not the summoning of the swarm, that'd be how you use it. Again, the summoning itself is only evil because the DMs say its evil. Very game-like.
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Post by DM Private P on Jan 20, 2022 16:58:31 GMT -5
Based on the screenshot Flash posted, the swarm literally tries to eat its (helpless and conscious) target alive, and its probably not a quick death. With that in mind, there are relatively few situations I can think of where using the swarm against anything with an Intelligence rating of 1 or higher would not be an Evil act. I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you there... The description says they stun their foes in preparation for them to be eaten. Which is what wizards use them for. Stun foes, then let the party kill the enemy. Only when enemies cause the attacks have I seen a swarm attack an enemy, and if it does it tends to not fare well. Usually, if its close enough to attack an enemy it'll be attacked and killed in a couple of turns. Hardly enough time for an enemy to be eaten alive, even if it were intentional on the wizard's part. And even then, that's not the summoning of the swarm, that'd be how you use it. Again, the summoning itself is only evil because the DMs say its evil. Very game-like. Farmers think locusts are pretty evil so it's not just DMs saying it.
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Jan 20, 2022 19:04:29 GMT -5
This is false, please check again. The creature is what its character sheet says it is, so it is an NE swarm of locusts and not a TN duck, or anything else. Please use your radial to examine your creatures, it's a feature that is available to every caster and opens both the Character Sheet and the Description window of the summon:
For Context: There are 9 native summon creatures in NWN available to every caster but a few years back FRC added optional summons to spice things up. Out of the 60+ flavored creatures that were added only 13 of them are not True Neutral. There's 1 on the Staff of Vermin, 3 in the Book of Magical Beasts, and all 9 in the Ancient Folio of Undeath. Nobody is forcing players to use these items and you all have a multitude of options in deciding what to ally yourself with. Non-evil PCs have a great many more options for flavored summons with the Shield Golems and above being suitable optional alternatives in almost every way; many already know this. But the optional evil aligned summons are generally stronger and more durable which is consistent with the level of risk that comes with using them in an LG Kingdom, where a PC's story can be ended by nothing more than a credible survi...witness. This is not the only concession in the setting for evil aligned PCs but that's a different topic.
While alignment is determined by players at character creation, it is henceforth a reflection of your actions. For transparency these weren't TPK scenarios where a summon saved the group, an accidental summon and unsummon, nor were they involved in RP in a research setting. These were players in party or by themselves benefiting from the forces of darkness to clear a dungeon for their personal gain, and is somewhat related to the notion of "trying to have your cake and eat it too". I've had PC's impacted by these alignment shifts that have gone on to adjust themselves back and received other boons to their satisfaction. My comments towards these players at the time of the shift included suggestions and ideas to get back on path but were by no means the gold standard. If you have something more interesting/relatable for your PC to get back on track please share it with myself or your favored DM and we'll collaborate on it. The current DM Team is also not responsible for any shifts that took place prior to the onboarding of the new Team but we will absolutely work with you on it if you like.
The general theme here is that any non-evil aligned PC benefiting from an optional evil summon can get shifted by the bare minimum amount of 1pt out of 100, and continued use and benefit will result in your character slipping towards the alignment of the company they keep. Please do not treat FRC's setting like a video game and pay attention to the items and resources you're using. You have options.
Im curious then why the builders made them evil. not nit picking or arguing just curious as they why they are labeled evil?
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Jan 20, 2022 23:17:54 GMT -5
For Context:
There are 9 native summon creatures in NWN available to every caster but a few years back FRC added optional summons to spice things up. Out of the 60+ flavored creatures that were added only 13 of them are not True Neutral. There's 1 on the Staff of Vermin, 3 in the Book of Magical Beasts, and all 9 in the Ancient Folio of Undeath. Nobody is forcing players to use these items and you all have a multitude of options in deciding what to ally yourself with. Non-evil PCs have a great many more options for flavored summons with the Shield Golems and above being suitable optional alternatives in almost every way; many already know this. But the optional evil aligned summons are generally stronger and more durable which is consistent with the level of risk that comes with using them in an LG Kingdom, where a PC's story can be ended by nothing more than a credible survi...witness. This is not the only concession in the setting for evil aligned PCs but that's a different topic. While alignment is determined by players at character creation, it is henceforth a reflection of your actions. For transparency these weren't TPK scenarios where a summon saved the group, an accidental summon and unsummon, nor were they involved in RP in a research setting. These were players in party or by themselves benefiting from the forces of darkness to clear a dungeon for their personal gain, and is somewhat related to the notion of "trying to have your cake and eat it too". I've had PC's impacted by these alignment shifts that have gone on to adjust themselves back and received other boons to their satisfaction. My comments towards these players at the time of the shift included suggestions and ideas to get back on path but were by no means the gold standard. If you have something more interesting/relatable for your PC to get back on track please share it with myself or your favored DM and we'll collaborate on it. The current DM Team is also not responsible for any shifts that took place prior to the onboarding of the new Team but we will absolutely work with you on it if you like.
The general theme here is that any non-evil aligned PC benefiting from an optional evil summon can get shifted by the bare minimum amount of 1pt out of 100, and continued use and benefit will result in your character slipping towards the alignment of the company they keep. Please do not treat FRC's setting like a video game and pay attention to the items and resources you're using. You have options.
In that case, good summons should shift an evil character good and neutral summons should pull both good and evil to the center, as I've been arguing. Furthermore, you're punishing players for using a summon in a very strange way... "We claim this summon is evil and more powerful, so using it makes you evil". That's video game logic, not rp logic. Evil points are awarded for how you use the evil swarm, not for its existence. Benefiting from evil doesn't necessarily make you evil, your actions and behavior following the summon make you evil. If you want to say that summoning evil makes you evil, I'm fine with that. If that's the rule, then great. Make it public so people are aware. Standardize it so it happens with good and neutral summons, I'm happy as a peach. Or a carrot. But trying to excuse it by saying "you get evil because you chose to use the more powerful evil summon" seems like a faulty argument, especially when you frame it in the context of "don't treat FRC like a video game". I don't feel it's a faulty argument to say that summoning powerful evil beings is going to shift your alignment to evil, and I don't think anyone here is arguing that summoning a good summons would give you good points, however, I am 100% arguing it. An evil being is self serving thing usually, I think it would largely depend on -why- they summoned a good summons. If they did so to make it perform an evil act, they should actually get MORE evil points than say, a good character giving into temptation and summoning an evil being simply to survive (even if that was the only choice it's still an act of evil). All things are NOT equal between good and evil in terms of alignment shifts. Thats just the truth. Trying to make all things equal just doesn't work. I am having trouble finding what is faulty about summoning evil creatures giving you evil points really is. You have brought an evil being from another plane, a plane which is so evil, that it spawns evil beings of one type or another spontaneously, one of which you have summoned. If you are evil and summon a good aligned creature to serve you, then have it commit an evil act, there was no sense in awarding you a good point for the summoning. Simply summoning a creature to defend your life in certain circumstances would be an evil act in it's self depending on why you need it to defend you and what you need it to defend you from. The questions on the good awards are always going to be greater because it's a climb. Going evil is easier it's a fall.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Jan 20, 2022 23:23:36 GMT -5
Based on the screenshot Flash posted, the swarm literally tries to eat its (helpless and conscious) target alive, and its probably not a quick death. With that in mind, there are relatively few situations I can think of where using the swarm against anything with an Intelligence rating of 1 or higher would not be an Evil act. I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you there... The description says they stun their foes in preparation for them to be eaten. Which is what wizards use them for. Stun foes, then let the party kill the enemy. Only when enemies cause the attacks have I seen a swarm attack an enemy, and if it does it tends to not fare well. Usually, if its close enough to attack an enemy it'll be attacked and killed in a couple of turns. Hardly enough time for an enemy to be eaten alive, even if it were intentional on the wizard's part. And even then, that's not the summoning of the swarm, that'd be how you use it. Again, the summoning itself is only evil because the DMs say its evil. Very game-like. You yourself are using the video game logic by saying that the swarm will be dead in a couple of rounds. It's evil because you are summoning a swarm of insects that will eat a person alive. The caster knows they will do this, he doesn't 'know' that it'll be autodead in a couple of rounds because this is a video game. Literally 98% of the time the caster is summoning the creature, whatever type, by whatever caster alignment, because they need it to fight.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Jan 20, 2022 23:32:08 GMT -5
This is false, please check again. The creature is what its character sheet says it is, so it is an NE swarm of locusts and not a TN duck, or anything else. Please use your radial to examine your creatures, it's a feature that is available to every caster and opens both the Character Sheet and the Description window of the summon: For Context: There are 9 native summon creatures in NWN available to every caster but a few years back FRC added optional summons to spice things up. Out of the 60+ flavored creatures that were added only 13 of them are not True Neutral. There's 1 on the Staff of Vermin, 3 in the Book of Magical Beasts, and all 9 in the Ancient Folio of Undeath. Nobody is forcing players to use these items and you all have a multitude of options in deciding what to ally yourself with. Non-evil PCs have a great many more options for flavored summons with the Shield Golems and above being suitable optional alternatives in almost every way; many already know this. But the optional evil aligned summons are generally stronger and more durable which is consistent with the level of risk that comes with using them in an LG Kingdom, where a PC's story can be ended by nothing more than a credible survi...witness. This is not the only concession in the setting for evil aligned PCs but that's a different topic. While alignment is determined by players at character creation, it is henceforth a reflection of your actions. For transparency these weren't TPK scenarios where a summon saved the group, an accidental summon and unsummon, nor were they involved in RP in a research setting. These were players in party or by themselves benefiting from the forces of darkness to clear a dungeon for their personal gain, and is somewhat related to the notion of "trying to have your cake and eat it too". I've had PC's impacted by these alignment shifts that have gone on to adjust themselves back and received other boons to their satisfaction. My comments towards these players at the time of the shift included suggestions and ideas to get back on path but were by no means the gold standard. If you have something more interesting/relatable for your PC to get back on track please share it with myself or your favored DM and we'll collaborate on it. The current DM Team is also not responsible for any shifts that took place prior to the onboarding of the new Team but we will absolutely work with you on it if you like.
The general theme here is that any non-evil aligned PC benefiting from an optional evil summon can get shifted by the bare minimum amount of 1pt out of 100, and continued use and benefit will result in your character slipping towards the alignment of the company they keep. Please do not treat FRC's setting like a video game and pay attention to the items and resources you're using. You have options.
Im curious then why the builders made them evil. not nit picking or arguing just curious as they why they are labeled evil? I am gonna go out on a limb here and say that the designer drew on the 'biblical plagues of locusts' type locust that isn't simply an insect. If you read the descriptions of 'locusts' in this sense, they are described quite a bit different than say, a large grasshopper. Further, in terms of portfolios etc, things like poison, pestilence and disease are the wheelhouse of evil deities.
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Jan 20, 2022 23:52:03 GMT -5
Im curious then why the builders made them evil. not nit picking or arguing just curious as they why they are labeled evil? I am gonna go out on a limb here and say that the designer drew on the 'biblical plagues of locusts' type locust that isn't simply an insect. If you read the descriptions of 'locusts' in this sense, they are described quite a bit different than say, a large grasshopper. Further, in terms of portfolios etc, things like poison, pestilence and disease are the wheelhouse of evil deities. I can agree to an extent. But in my opinion it would depend on how the swarm was used. But alas rules are rules and ill have to sell the vermin staff and figure out another summon. Granted rather slim pickings for evils trying to go good.
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Post by iamthecircle on Jan 21, 2022 2:45:34 GMT -5
In that case, good summons should shift an evil character good and neutral summons should pull both good and evil to the center, as I've been arguing. Furthermore, you're punishing players for using a summon in a very strange way... "We claim this summon is evil and more powerful, so using it makes you evil". That's video game logic, not rp logic. Evil points are awarded for how you use the evil swarm, not for its existence. Benefiting from evil doesn't necessarily make you evil, your actions and behavior following the summon make you evil. If you want to say that summoning evil makes you evil, I'm fine with that. If that's the rule, then great. Make it public so people are aware. Standardize it so it happens with good and neutral summons, I'm happy as a peach. Or a carrot. But trying to excuse it by saying "you get evil because you chose to use the more powerful evil summon" seems like a faulty argument, especially when you frame it in the context of "don't treat FRC like a video game". I don't feel it's a faulty argument to say that summoning powerful evil beings is going to shift your alignment to evil, and I don't think anyone here is arguing that summoning a good summons would give you good points, however, I am 100% arguing it. An evil being is self serving thing usually, I think it would largely depend on -why- they summoned a good summons. If they did so to make it perform an evil act, they should actually get MORE evil points than say, a good character giving into temptation and summoning an evil being simply to survive (even if that was the only choice it's still an act of evil). All things are NOT equal between good and evil in terms of alignment shifts. Thats just the truth. Trying to make all things equal just doesn't work. I am having trouble finding what is faulty about summoning evil creatures giving you evil points really is. You have brought an evil being from another plane, a plane which is so evil, that it spawns evil beings of one type or another spontaneously, one of which you have summoned. If you are evil and summon a good aligned creature to serve you, then have it commit an evil act, there was no sense in awarding you a good point for the summoning. Simply summoning a creature to defend your life in certain circumstances would be an evil act in it's self depending on why you need it to defend you and what you need it to defend you from. The questions on the good awards are always going to be greater because it's a climb. Going evil is easier it's a fall. Ok, some people are tech-savvy enough to quote multiple people/entries. I'm not so fortunate, so i'll just quote this one. I didn't say its faulty argument, that summoning evil gives evil points. I'm saying its a faulty argument to say that, then criticize others for using video game logic. The reason its true is because the DMs say thats how evil summons work on FRC, any other reasoning with be fairly lousy. I think summoning evil creatures from a plane of evil is up for debate. Some creatures are indeed expressly summoned from a negative plane, or from actual hell so... yeah. Summoning them would be evil, wouldn't it? But do locusts come from the negative plane just because they're neutral evil? That'd be a DM ruling, not a player one. And because of FRC's unique nature, it'd have to be all DMs who agree on how that ruling falls, not a per-dm basis. If you're evil and summon a good aligned creature (though this is, apparently, impossible according to Flash) then use it for evil, you get evil points. It therefore stands to reason that if you summon an evil aligned creature and use it for good (say... exterminating a band of orcs who has been actively attacking travellers?) then that would be an act of good, getting you good points. Here, we see it is the act after the summoning that causes good/evil shift rather than the summoning itself. "You yourself are using the video game logic by saying that the swarm will be dead in a couple of rounds. It's evil because you are summoning a swarm of insects that will eat a person alive. The caster knows they will do this, he doesn't 'know' that it'll be autodead in a couple of rounds because this is a video game. Literally 98% of the time the caster is summoning the creature, whatever type, by whatever caster alignment, because they need it to fight." Ok... two things. First, me using "video game logic" isn't evidence of any poor reasoning on my part. That's flash's accusation, so he can't use it. But I can. Because I was condemning Flash's use, not its use in general. However, I didn't use video game logic. I couched the situation in video game terms, because that was the easiest way to refer to the situation, but even if I was referring to the summon wearing out in a couple of rounds, the summoner would still know that. They would (or should, I guess, if they're not an idiot) know that their summons don't last forever. They'd know how long their spells last IC, not just as a video game. However, that's only true if I was referring to them dying due to the timer running out. Sorry, I wasn't terribly specific when I said this, but I was referring to enemies attacking them to kill them causing them to not last long in combat. Which is why wizards don't make them fight, they use their stun effect then keep them out of the fighting to prevent them from dying instantly. "I am gonna go out on a limb here and say that the designer drew on the 'biblical plagues of locusts' type locust that isn't simply an insect. If you read the descriptions of 'locusts' in this sense, they are described quite a bit different than say, a large grasshopper. Further, in terms of portfolios etc, things like poison, pestilence and disease are the wheelhouse of evil deities." Finally, I disagree. Locusts are an insect, whether you say their part of the wheelhouse of a deity or no. A locust isn't simply a large grasshopper in the first place... They've described the locust in ominous terms to justify the evil characterization, but locusts simply aren't evil. (even if some farmers are foolish to believe they are) Asgardian Grey Hawk In fairness, you're not supposed to be using summons to go evil... You should probably rp going evil, same as you would if you wanted to go good.
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Post by Sioladuil on Jan 21, 2022 9:00:24 GMT -5
If there were any optional summons that were Good you'd have a case to argue, but there aren't any because the rest are TN. What you're referring to are create undead, planar ally, planar binding, or Gate which players don't have a choice in creature. However players should still RP these creatures appropriately. If you're opting to use the forces of darkness for personal gain then you're going to feel that creep into your alignment if it's not already there. Although not optional summons there is the Lesser Planar Binding, Planar Binding and Greater Planar Binding summons for LG, NG and CG which summon deva/solars and so on. I have one character who uses them and I have never once received "good points" for using them. In my experience (as limited or as broad as that may be) Evil points seem to be really easy to give out but I rarely see any good points issued. I also have seen a lot of chaos points issued by very rarely see lawful points issued. Moving away from that, I am confused as to why the debate is going on. Do bad things, get evil points. Do good things, get good points. It seems fairly straight forward to me. Some acts are definitely evil, like summoning evil creatures for personal gain. But outside of those motivation has to be taken into account in most situations. If you are summoning an evil creature for personal gain, you get evil points. If you are tricked into summoning/creating evil creatures (seen it happen) then you might not get as MANY evil points. Still an evil act, but not deliberate. The person who coerced would also get evil points. If you are an evil individual who has infiltrated a good aligned group you will carry out good aligned acts but should not get good points - because of the motivations. Some acts are definitely good, but motivation has to be taken into account. There are dungeons where certain NPC's are prisoners and you can free them or not. I always see people freeing these individuals, without fail. Again, motivation matters. Are you freeing them in the hopes they owe you one? Are you just being nice? What's the craic?. But I very, very rarely see good points being issued. I don't mind receiving alignment shifts personally, especially if they are representative of what my pc is doing. But I would expect to have been observed for a while/asked why my PC is doing something. So... just be consistent. Give both evil and good points equally which, in my experience, is the issue as good points are issued fair less regularly than the evil ones. Not saying that is the case, just in my experience as somebody who played a PC from fully CE to CG it is.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Jan 21, 2022 19:23:34 GMT -5
I don't feel it's a faulty argument to say that summoning powerful evil beings is going to shift your alignment to evil, and I don't think anyone here is arguing that summoning a good summons would give you good points, however, I am 100% arguing it. An evil being is self serving thing usually, I think it would largely depend on -why- they summoned a good summons. If they did so to make it perform an evil act, they should actually get MORE evil points than say, a good character giving into temptation and summoning an evil being simply to survive (even if that was the only choice it's still an act of evil). All things are NOT equal between good and evil in terms of alignment shifts. Thats just the truth. Trying to make all things equal just doesn't work. I am having trouble finding what is faulty about summoning evil creatures giving you evil points really is. You have brought an evil being from another plane, a plane which is so evil, that it spawns evil beings of one type or another spontaneously, one of which you have summoned. If you are evil and summon a good aligned creature to serve you, then have it commit an evil act, there was no sense in awarding you a good point for the summoning. Simply summoning a creature to defend your life in certain circumstances would be an evil act in it's self depending on why you need it to defend you and what you need it to defend you from. The questions on the good awards are always going to be greater because it's a climb. Going evil is easier it's a fall. Ok, some people are tech-savvy enough to quote multiple people/entries. I'm not so fortunate, so i'll just quote this one. I didn't say its faulty argument, that summoning evil gives evil points. I'm saying its a faulty argument to say that, then criticize others for using video game logic. The reason its true is because the DMs say thats how evil summons work on FRC, any other reasoning with be fairly lousy. I think summoning evil creatures from a plane of evil is up for debate. Some creatures are indeed expressly summoned from a negative plane, or from actual hell so... yeah. Summoning them would be evil, wouldn't it? But do locusts come from the negative plane just because they're neutral evil? That'd be a DM ruling, not a player one. And because of FRC's unique nature, it'd have to be all DMs who agree on how that ruling falls, not a per-dm basis. If you're evil and summon a good aligned creature (though this is, apparently, impossible according to Flash) then use it for evil, you get evil points. It therefore stands to reason that if you summon an evil aligned creature and use it for good (say... exterminating a band of orcs who has been actively attacking travellers?) then that would be an act of good, getting you good points. Here, we see it is the act after the summoning that causes good/evil shift rather than the summoning itself. "You yourself are using the video game logic by saying that the swarm will be dead in a couple of rounds. It's evil because you are summoning a swarm of insects that will eat a person alive. The caster knows they will do this, he doesn't 'know' that it'll be autodead in a couple of rounds because this is a video game. Literally 98% of the time the caster is summoning the creature, whatever type, by whatever caster alignment, because they need it to fight." Ok... two things. First, me using "video game logic" isn't evidence of any poor reasoning on my part. That's flash's accusation, so he can't use it. But I can. Because I was condemning Flash's use, not its use in general. However, I didn't use video game logic. I couched the situation in video game terms, because that was the easiest way to refer to the situation, but even if I was referring to the summon wearing out in a couple of rounds, the summoner would still know that. They would (or should, I guess, if they're not an idiot) know that their summons don't last forever. They'd know how long their spells last IC, not just as a video game. However, that's only true if I was referring to them dying due to the timer running out. Sorry, I wasn't terribly specific when I said this, but I was referring to enemies attacking them to kill them causing them to not last long in combat. Which is why wizards don't make them fight, they use their stun effect then keep them out of the fighting to prevent them from dying instantly. "I am gonna go out on a limb here and say that the designer drew on the 'biblical plagues of locusts' type locust that isn't simply an insect. If you read the descriptions of 'locusts' in this sense, they are described quite a bit different than say, a large grasshopper. Further, in terms of portfolios etc, things like poison, pestilence and disease are the wheelhouse of evil deities." Finally, I disagree. Locusts are an insect, whether you say their part of the wheelhouse of a deity or no. A locust isn't simply a large grasshopper in the first place... They've described the locust in ominous terms to justify the evil characterization, but locusts simply aren't evil. (even if some farmers are foolish to believe they are) Asgardian Grey Hawk In fairness, you're not supposed to be using summons to go evil... You should probably rp going evil, same as you would if you wanted to go good. It's possible that the summons is supposed to be from an evil aligned plane, if it isn't an animal summoning spell, and it's like summon planar ally lesser or greater, they are in fact extraplanar locusts, if it's just summon creature, thats different. Depending on if a monster is created, summoned, or called, can mean many things...so what spell exactly are we talking about? SOme of these spells spell out that it is an extraplanar creature. As for locusts being an insect that isn't a large grasshopper: I am aware. I'm a biologist. I realize though that this is in fact a video game with fantasy elements like those presented in the bible. Y0u can disagree, but you aren't disagreeing with me, because I am pretty sure that this negative stigma locusts carry because of religious texts and a general perception of evil with plagues and swarms and pestilence, and had nothing to do with me. I am just drawing context clues like "Oh, these are insects that swarm people and are capable of eating them alive, and clearly were intended to have an evil flavor since the person who created them made their alignment evil". If you disagree that these negative elements were why the locusts were intended to be evil creatures in this fantasy game, cool I guess? Further, many NPCs will have just a couple of hit points, a swarm could easily take down the vast majority of humans if they can do 1hp a round. Player Characters and commoners really aren't equal. So most wizards would know from experience that their swarm of locusts could kill (and probably eat) most people fairly easily.
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Post by iamthecircle on Jan 22, 2022 1:10:49 GMT -5
It's possible that the summons is supposed to be from an evil aligned plane, if it isn't an animal summoning spell, and it's like summon planar ally lesser or greater, they are in fact extraplanar locusts, if it's just summon creature, thats different. Depending on if a monster is created, summoned, or called, can mean many things...so what spell exactly are we talking about? SOme of these spells spell out that it is an extraplanar creature. As for locusts being an insect that isn't a large grasshopper: I am aware. I'm a biologist. I realize though that this is in fact a video game with fantasy elements like those presented in the bible. Y0u can disagree, but you aren't disagreeing with me, because I am pretty sure that this negative stigma locusts carry because of religious texts and a general perception of evil with plagues and swarms and pestilence, and had nothing to do with me. I am just drawing context clues like "Oh, these are insects that swarm people and are capable of eating them alive, and clearly were intended to have an evil flavor since the person who created them made their alignment evil". If you disagree that these negative elements were why the locusts were intended to be evil creatures in this fantasy game, cool I guess? Further, many NPCs will have just a couple of hit points, a swarm could easily take down the vast majority of humans if they can do 1hp a round. Player Characters and commoners really aren't equal. So most wizards would know from experience that their swarm of locusts could kill (and probably eat) most people fairly easily. Possible, were the name of the spell "planar summon" or somesuch? Yes. But this locust swarm comes from the staff of vermin, which summons animals. Perhaps it is the only creature summon on the staff that is evil, which means it comes from the negative plane? But that seems like a strange assumption to make. The rest are natural creature summons (unless they, too, randomly poof into existence in some natural plane), but perhaps this one creature is different because the description is a bit ominous. There's nothing in the description that spells out that it is an extraplanar creature. If you were unaware of the origin of the summon, you've made some interesting claims as to its nature without that knowledge. So... You're saying that when you initially pointed out that maybe these locusts aren't described like big grasshoppers (which would make them large grasshoppers) they're some kind of truly evil locust? each individual member has sentience and desires only to do moral evil actions to those around it, like an undead would? Seems like a bit of a stretch. Even if we speak of biblical plagues, the locusts within the plague weren't evil, they were just locusts. Were the frogs the fall from the heavens evil? That was a biblical plague. No. Locusts are insects and simply do what do, without malicious intent. Any malicious intent is in the hands of the user. Even Flash didn't take this position, his position was, "They're a strong summon, so we made them evil" and that's why the description is evil-sounding. To justify that decision. Negative elements around locusts are realized in ignorance, I'd be amazed to meet a priest who says locusts are evil because God used them in a biblical plague. As to the NPCs, first... all npc's can be eaten alive by all the animal summons. But the animal summons aren't all evil, are they? Knowledge that x summon can kill most people fairly easily is why no neutral or good wizard would summon them to eat a commoner alive... They'd do so in order to stun an orc, then not have the locusts fight that orc and let the warrior slay it. Even if you want hang onto this strange point, you're making my point. Summoning the locust swarm should not give evil points. Using them in the way the description says they can be used is evil. The use is what is evil, not the summoning itself.
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Post by DM Sauron on Jan 22, 2022 9:47:59 GMT -5
If it was up to me only, I would have deleted the locusts from the creature palette already. Not because this dicussion about alignment, but because that summon is a lame "I Win" button.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Jan 22, 2022 11:42:09 GMT -5
It's possible that the summons is supposed to be from an evil aligned plane, if it isn't an animal summoning spell, and it's like summon planar ally lesser or greater, they are in fact extraplanar locusts, if it's just summon creature, thats different. Depending on if a monster is created, summoned, or called, can mean many things...so what spell exactly are we talking about? SOme of these spells spell out that it is an extraplanar creature. As for locusts being an insect that isn't a large grasshopper: I am aware. I'm a biologist. I realize though that this is in fact a video game with fantasy elements like those presented in the bible. Y0u can disagree, but you aren't disagreeing with me, because I am pretty sure that this negative stigma locusts carry because of religious texts and a general perception of evil with plagues and swarms and pestilence, and had nothing to do with me. I am just drawing context clues like "Oh, these are insects that swarm people and are capable of eating them alive, and clearly were intended to have an evil flavor since the person who created them made their alignment evil". If you disagree that these negative elements were why the locusts were intended to be evil creatures in this fantasy game, cool I guess? Further, many NPCs will have just a couple of hit points, a swarm could easily take down the vast majority of humans if they can do 1hp a round. Player Characters and commoners really aren't equal. So most wizards would know from experience that their swarm of locusts could kill (and probably eat) most people fairly easily. Possible, were the name of the spell "planar summon" or somesuch? Yes. But this locust swarm comes from the staff of vermin, which summons animals. Perhaps it is the only creature summon on the staff that is evil, which means it comes from the negative plane? But that seems like a strange assumption to make. The rest are natural creature summons (unless they, too, randomly poof into existence in some natural plane), but perhaps this one creature is different because the description is a bit ominous. There's nothing in the description that spells out that it is an extraplanar creature. If you were unaware of the origin of the summon, you've made some interesting claims as to its nature without that knowledge. So... You're saying that when you initially pointed out that maybe these locusts aren't described like big grasshoppers (which would make them large grasshoppers) they're some kind of truly evil locust? each individual member has sentience and desires only to do moral evil actions to those around it, like an undead would? Seems like a bit of a stretch. Even if we speak of biblical plagues, the locusts within the plague weren't evil, they were just locusts. Were the frogs the fall from the heavens evil? That was a biblical plague. No. Locusts are insects and simply do what do, without malicious intent. Any malicious intent is in the hands of the user. Even Flash didn't take this position, his position was, "They're a strong summon, so we made them evil" and that's why the description is evil-sounding. To justify that decision. Negative elements around locusts are realized in ignorance, I'd be amazed to meet a priest who says locusts are evil because God used them in a biblical plague. As to the NPCs, first... all npc's can be eaten alive by all the animal summons. But the animal summons aren't all evil, are they? Knowledge that x summon can kill most people fairly easily is why no neutral or good wizard would summon them to eat a commoner alive... They'd do so in order to stun an orc, then not have the locusts fight that orc and let the warrior slay it. Even if you want hang onto this strange point, you're making my point. Summoning the locust swarm should not give evil points. Using them in the way the description says they can be used is evil. The use is what is evil, not the summoning itself. Saying a thing is possible, or that someone may have drawn on a particular resource isn't a 'claim' in the sense you are implying here. Saying that someone may have done something isn't really a claim, saying they did do something is a claim, although I do agree that is is interesting as a concept that people draw on fictional sources to contribute to this fictional place we enjoy. Insects here in the real world are not evil, but there is nothing that says that an individual author of a monster can't make it's alignment evil. I posit that this general, mythological, and false claim about locusts that exists in the real world in the form of religious and folk mythology, may have been the resource drawn upon for the spirit of this particular summons. I know I should have originally followed my own advice and jumped ship. These discussions go nowhere 100% of the time because alignment is a very abstract concept that means different things to different people, including the DM Team. I think the best we can do at this point is put up a poll on if we care enough about the current state of alignment server wide to force some kind of new system into place on the current team and make them focus more overall on individual peoples alignments than they do now. My vote is obviously NO. I also never claimed these locusts were from another plane, I only pointed out that some spells indicate extraplanar origins for the targeted summons. That doesn't mean the only way you get an evil monster is by an extraplanar summons. I never said that or implied it, just that there are certain spells that are 100% going to summon evil monsters, good monsters, or true neutral(depending on the casters alignment). If this isn't one of those spells, there is an actual argument. Are the locust swarms part of the original pallette, or are they custom monsters made for the staff? If the second is true we can legit track down whoever made the staff and ask them "Hey, why did you make locusts evil", maybe they'll say "LMAO dude I didn't even check their alignments tho I just assigned them 2 th3 staff bro" or maybe they'll say "I intended to make them like an evil summoned swarm of red eyed horrible locusts that routinely eat people alive like from the bible". I also agree we should just delete the locusts, especially if they are just regular insects. Thats so lame. Also, 'the negative energy plane' isn't the only plane associated with evil. There are a plethora of evil aligned planes of existence to choose from.
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Post by Runa Rothgar on Jan 22, 2022 13:00:48 GMT -5
I know I should have originally followed my own advice and jumped ship. These discussions go nowhere 100% of the time because alignment is a very abstract concept that means different things to different people, including the DM Team. I think the best we can do at this point is put up a poll on if we care enough about the current state of alignment server wide to force some kind of new system into place on the current team and make them focus more overall on individual peoples alignments than they do now. My vote is obviously NO. Yes. There isn't enough alignment based mechanics to really bring forth some new system. I rather just let Roleplayers decide how their character's alignment is and let DMs bring forth consequences for the actions. Flipping about Alignment points are too sparse and DMs can't oversee my characters 24/7 or like a DM to player tabletop game. There are, mechanically, fallen tokens for classes. If a Paladin, Barbarian, Cleric go outta whack from their designed dogma/ideals, then they get a token for their consequences. Sorry to say, but if a DM made Leah LG by points for some reason.. I would still play her lawful evil because I am 'adult' enough to RP my character and wouldn't be too pleased (Yes yes, some exceptions to those that are supposedly crappy RP'ers. Im not sure I am the epitome of a grand Roleplayer, but I think most FRCers are responsible enough to play their characters correctly) . I doubt this extreme happened, but I agree that DMs shouldn't focus on what points to give, but rather the consequences. Communication is key. Allow DMs to discuss what a character is doing and find out what the player's motives are for their character if things seem farfetches. DMs can easily warn players that their character is going towards the path of being 'fallen' from their original design. I am going to make a suggestion or Roleplay idea in another thread to possibly help players give DMs a chance to assist with communication. It's pretty simple now that creating parchment is easy. Stay tuned (Edit later). :3 EDIT: frc.proboards.com/thread/35126/secret-bio
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Post by iamthecircle on Jan 22, 2022 13:56:49 GMT -5
Saying a thing is possible, or that someone may have drawn on a particular resource isn't a 'claim' in the sense you are implying here. Saying that someone may have done something isn't really a claim, saying they did do something is a claim, although I do agree that is is interesting as a concept that people draw on fictional sources to contribute to this fictional place we enjoy. Insects here in the real world are not evil, but there is nothing that says that an individual author of a monster can't make it's alignment evil. I posit that this general, mythological, and false claim about locusts that exists in the real world in the form of religious and folk mythology, may have been the resource drawn upon for the spirit of this particular summons. I know I should have originally followed my own advice and jumped ship. These discussions go nowhere 100% of the time because alignment is a very abstract concept that means different things to different people, including the DM Team. I think the best we can do at this point is put up a poll on if we care enough about the current state of alignment server wide to force some kind of new system into place on the current team and make them focus more overall on individual peoples alignments than they do now. My vote is obviously NO. I also never claimed these locusts were from another plane, I only pointed out that some spells indicate extraplanar origins for the targeted summons. That doesn't mean the only way you get an evil monster is by an extraplanar summons. I never said that or implied it, just that there are certain spells that are 100% going to summon evil monsters, good monsters, or true neutral(depending on the casters alignment). If this isn't one of those spells, there is an actual argument. Are the locust swarms part of the original pallette, or are they custom monsters made for the staff? If the second is true we can legit track down whoever made the staff and ask them "Hey, why did you make locusts evil", maybe they'll say "LMAO dude I didn't even check their alignments tho I just assigned them 2 th3 staff bro" or maybe they'll say "I intended to make them like an evil summoned swarm of red eyed horrible locusts that routinely eat people alive like from the bible". I also agree we should just delete the locusts, especially if they are just regular insects. Thats so lame. Also, 'the negative energy plane' isn't the only plane associated with evil. There are a plethora of evil aligned planes of existence to choose from. That's exactly what a claim is... "I believe that x is the truth". Whether you hedge with "x may be the truth" or not, its a claim. Maybe you mistyped, because you claimed precisely that. "It's possible that the summons is supposed to be from an evil aligned plane, if it isn't an animal summoning spell, and it's like summon planar ally lesser or greater, they are in fact extraplanar locusts, if it's just summon creature, thats different. Depending on if a monster is created, summoned, or called, can mean many things...so what spell exactly are we talking about? SOme of these spells spell out that it is an extraplanar creature." You claim that it is possible for the for the summon to be from an evil aligned plane, for the sole reason that it is evil. I guess maybe you don't think that's a claim? DM JorteckAs for deleting locusts, I've not seen a wizard use them since I was lvl 15. Most seem to use planar binding or other, more powerful, summons. It seems like a good, mid-level summon to help wizards who have an incredibly hard time solo have a slightly easier time, not some insidious "get out of jail free" card. Its 6th circle and doesn't hit everything so there's still danger. And it doesn't even last at the last second. Wizards are frail, lets give them some tiny ability to solo things, please. I'd like to make a wizard in the future and I rarely find parties when I'm on. And I'm sorry I used the easiest plane with evil as an example. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. It was but an example. Thank you for informing me that there are other evil planes, its quite the revelation. Runa RothgarI'm not suggesting we make an entire system out of it. I think I've stated multiple times I think DMs simply shouldn't give out alignment points unless its an extreme betrayal of the alignment or summoning undead, that'd be the easiest way for everyone to be satisfied. I've always played my characters how I think they would be, and wouldn't change that even if their alignment changed in a way I didn't agree with. But wizards have consequences for shifting alignment, and DMs can't be there to see when the wizard they hit with evil points every day because they rely on the locusts to run dungeons does good acts and hands those over. Therefore, not giving the evil points is the easiest route. Otherwise, the onus falls on the player to deal with reversing the situation, which seems silly. Best to just not have that situation happen in the first place, especially as it does end up causing resentment among some people. It is unfortunate, but not everyone is as level-headed as you are and become hot-blooded when something happens to their character. The key here is that the system would be predicated on the DM approaching the player before awarding the alignment points. It seems some DMs do that already, but making it a general rule would help when players might become disgruntled.
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Post by Dakarizon (Shroud) on Jan 22, 2022 14:52:12 GMT -5
“ Thank you for informing me that there are other evil planes, its quite the revelation.” Are you actually trying to have a discussion here? Some of these posts and comments of yours have come across as rude to me. Maybe I’m misreading it as I can accept that sometimes tone is difficult to convey but DMs have commented, you’ve argued, other players have commented …you’ve argued. Are you considering all sides of the discussion here? It all seems to be trying to catch someone in a “gotcha” moment when really it seems to be as simple as reading the description of the summon and asking yourself “would a good person use these tactics?” If you believe so and are RPing a good character than do it, if you don’t then don’t do it and have your discussions with the DM at the time when/if they ding you with a point. Unless we’re purposely going around in circles here in order to justify the the forum name then by all means, carry on 😅. <~ (lame joke)
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Post by iamthecircle on Jan 22, 2022 15:07:59 GMT -5
I have strict requirements for giving in to an argument. The posts and comments I have replied to are the ones I found faulty argumentation in. As I've said, if Flash says, "Its evil and we give out evil points on FRC if you summon and evil creature" I won't argue. But that's not what was said. I argue because I find myself entirely unconvinced by the arguments of "Maybe its a planar summon, which I claim solely because this insect that is listed as evil and won't claim for any of the neutral summons" and "We give evil points for summoning this because its overpowered" and "Neutral shifts don't exist".
I have frequently wondered in the course of this discussion whether my replies are being read, since any argument I show to be faulty is simply discarded, ignored, and the point moved on the next one (In fact, I've been fairly careful to demonstrate why each arguement I see doesn't work, only to see the person positing it either discarding it or trying to pretend its still fine as an argument because they never made a "claim", somehow). Meanwhile, I've yet to see a satisfactory reply to my argument of "Some players get annoyed with alignment shifts while others don't care. Why don't we just not shift alignments?" Instead I get arguments like "the description says they eat people alive, so therefore the very act of summoning them is evil, without regard to how they are used". The tactics you are referring to are "using the shiny locusts to stun enemies, then letting the rest of the party beat on them or maybe stuff them full of crossbow bolts". Is that something a good person would do? Yes.
I'm having the discussion here and now because arguing with a DM at a later point is inefficient. Why not just decide now whether you should always get evil points for an evil summon, consequences to alignment in the long-term be damned, or whether we should just not give alignment points for something like summoning locusts.
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Post by malclave on Jan 22, 2022 16:06:09 GMT -5
Based on the screenshot Flash posted, the swarm literally tries to eat its (helpless and conscious) target alive, and its probably not a quick death. With that in mind, there are relatively few situations I can think of where using the swarm against anything with an Intelligence rating of 1 or higher would not be an Evil act. I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you there... The description says they stun their foes in preparation for them to be eaten. Which is what wizards use them for. Stun foes, then let the party kill the enemy. Only when enemies cause the attacks have I seen a swarm attack an enemy, and if it does it tends to not fare well. Usually, if its close enough to attack an enemy it'll be attacked and killed in a couple of turns. Hardly enough time for an enemy to be eaten alive, even if it were intentional on the wizard's part. And even then, that's not the summoning of the swarm, that'd be how you use it. Again, the summoning itself is only evil because the DMs say its evil. Very game-like. I guess I should have expanded on my statement. I did not mean that I believe merely summoning the swarm is worth evil points. Indeed, I agree with you that in most cases it is the use of the swarm which should determine that. However, I do still feel that using the swarm against anything with an Int of 1 or more is most likely an evil act.
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Post by malclave on Jan 22, 2022 16:13:05 GMT -5
Meanwhile, I've yet to see a satisfactory reply to my argument of "Some players get annoyed with alignment shifts while others don't care. Why don't we just not shift alignments?" Because alignment has meaning in the game, both in RP and mechanically.
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Post by iamthecircle on Jan 22, 2022 16:14:37 GMT -5
I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you there... The description says they stun their foes in preparation for them to be eaten. Which is what wizards use them for. Stun foes, then let the party kill the enemy. Only when enemies cause the attacks have I seen a swarm attack an enemy, and if it does it tends to not fare well. Usually, if its close enough to attack an enemy it'll be attacked and killed in a couple of turns. Hardly enough time for an enemy to be eaten alive, even if it were intentional on the wizard's part. And even then, that's not the summoning of the swarm, that'd be how you use it. Again, the summoning itself is only evil because the DMs say its evil. Very game-like. I guess I should have expanded on my statement. I did not mean that I believe merely summoning the swarm is worth evil points. Indeed, I agree with you that in most cases it is the use of the swarm which should determine that. However, I do still feel that using the swarm against anything with an Int of 1 or more is most likely an evil act. But by "using" you mean "attacking", no? Or do you mean that the stun from the swarm is evil?
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Post by Dakarizon (Shroud) on Jan 22, 2022 16:21:28 GMT -5
The tactics you are referring to are "using the shiny locusts to stun enemies, then letting the rest of the party beat on them or maybe stuff them full of crossbow bolts". Is that something a good person would do? Yes.[ Personally, I would say killing a defenceless target feels “wrong” to a good signed character. Especially if the creatures are behaving as their description says they do. Which imo they should be. Showing no remorse as you effortlessly dispatch intelligent creatures that are smiling at the bright lights of foes being consumed seems a bit shady. That’s up for interpretation though and different philosophies will differ on it. I would say using such tactics would be opposed by a Paladin in the party. Mechanically I suspect you’re just using the player tool to put the swarms AOE circle in and out of range of the monsters to stun them correct? That’s why you’re mentioning that they aren’t doing damage to the monsters, even though they should be. I find this a bit cheesy personally from a strict game mechanics stand point. Ive used this summon extensively and have always made sure that the insects emoted eating the monsters as they were bedazzled by the lights. The bugs would damage foes and didn’t really die that quickly and It made for some interesting rp for the less evil ppl in the party who had to watch the carnage. I did find it pretty OP, probably too much crowd control and exploitable. The DMs did mention some “evil” things are balanced to account for the more difficulties you may have surviving in a LG environment. I think dinging ppl with evil points who are using evil summons is simply a cost associated with it. “Have your cake and eat it too” I believe one of the DMs said. And I happen to agree. Here’s the thing though, lets forget about the mechanics involved in the cheesy strat for a sec. Looking at it IC: Does your character actually see the rings of “stun” around a character’s head? No, thats not IC. Neither is the “aura” of bedazzlement. Maybe the dms could chime in on this, but what are the limits of controlling a summon such as this rp-wise. Can a mage micro each individual bug to make sure its not feasting on a creature? Or are they able to give just general instructions that the summon/swarm must follow to the best of its abilities? I’ve always rp’d summonsnas being able to be “guided” by the caster in a general sense. But maybe this is true/complete domination over the wills of the conjurations? Can your summons icly act in such a way your character doesn’t like? Circle, you’ve mentioned a couple times that people don’t seem to be reading your posts. Maybe some aren’t but I read every word. But on some points your reasoning just doesn’t sound like it aligns with mine. That’s fine with me, but I just don’t care for the tone/attitude. It just seems come across as condescending. Like the sarcastic response I quoted you on. I enjoy having conversations about topics like this, but I try to type in a way that I would if I was having a conversation with someone in person. We all have different types of social behaviours but using phrases like “I guess I’ll spell it out for you” and the sarcasm I’ve seen wouldn’t get someone too far in a conversation. I just ask that we cut it out with that is all.
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Post by iamthecircle on Jan 22, 2022 16:51:16 GMT -5
Personally, I would say killing a defenceless target feels “wrong” to a good signed character. Especially if the creatures are behaving as their description says they do. Which imo they should be. Showing no remorse as you effortlessly dispatch intelligent creatures that are smiling at the bright lights of foes being consumed seems a bit shady. That’s up for interpretation though and different philosophies will differ on it. I would say using such tactics would be opposed by a Paladin in the party. Mechanically I suspect you’re just using the player tool to put the swarms AOE circle in and out of range of the monsters to stun them correct? That’s why you’re mentioning that they aren’t doing damage to the monsters, even though they should be. I find this a bit cheesy personally from a strict game mechanics stand point. Ive used this summon extensively and have always made sure that the insects emoted eating the monsters as they were bedazzled by the lights. The bugs would damage foes and didn’t really die that quickly and It made for some interesting rp for the less evil ppl in the party who had to watch the carnage. I did find it pretty OP, probably too much crowd control and exploitable. The DMs did mention some “evil” things are balanced to account for the more difficulties you may have surviving in a LG environment. I think dinging ppl with evil points who are using evil summons is simply a cost associated with it. “Have your cake and eat it too” I believe one of the DMs said. And I happen to agree. Here’s the thing though, lets forget about the mechanics involved in the cheesy strat for a sec. Looking at it IC: Does your character actually see the rings of “stun” around a character’s head? No, thats not IC. Neither is the “aura” of bedazzlement. Maybe the dms could chime in on this, but what are the limits of controlling a summon such as this rp-wise. Can a mage micro each individual bug to make sure its not feasting on a creature? Or are they able to give just general instructions that the summon/swarm must follow to the best of its abilities? I’ve always rp’d summonsnas being able to be “guided” by the caster in a general sense. But maybe this is true/complete domination over the wills of the conjurations? Can your summons icly act in such a way your character doesn’t like? Circle, you’ve mentioned a couple times that people don’t seem to be reading your posts. Maybe some aren’t but I read every word. But on some points your reasoning just doesn’t sound like it aligns with mine. That’s fine with me, but I just don’t care for the tone/attitude. It just seems come across as condescending. Like the sarcastic response I quoted you on. I enjoy having conversations about topics like this, but I try to type in a way that I would if I was having a conversation with someone in person. We all have different types of social behaviours but using phrases like “I guess I’ll spell it out for you” and the sarcasm I’ve seen wouldn’t get someone too far in a conversation. I just ask that we cut it out with that is all. Ok, then this is just a point where we can't agree because there's not real argument beyond "I feel like its this way". I vaguely disagree that killing a defenseless character isn't good if that character is evil. Eradicating evil without mercy is good. It may be more "good" to not do so, but I could believe a character is good and still mercilessly cut down their foes. As for the method of using the swarm, I've never personally used it. But that's how I've seen most wizards use it. Yes, mechanically its "move the circle toward enemies then keep them inside" but rp-wise its "keep the swarm out of arm's reach so they can't be attacked while using their colors to hypnotize foes". Dinging all wizards because the evil summons are more powerful just seems like a strange move to me. All non-evil wizards have a harder time? I've never had a hard time playing an evil character on the server, and I have played an evil wizard for 10 levels (I gave up because I can't find groups and wizards do not good solo characters make). I don't know about the microing a bug. I'd say a general intent is impressed upon the swarm and they follow it. Keep them away from enemies, they'll have an easier time not eating things alive. I'm sure people are reading most of what I point out, but it is then discarded. I type the way I argue, and sarcasm is extremely natural for me. Its not condescending, but I can be aggressive with my points, especially if the other person doesn't have a sound argument. Reasoning can differ, but if the argument is bad then there's little reason to entertain an idea. I use the phrase spell it out because I was surprised I'd have to make that point when your argument shifted. You said robin hood could be CN or CG, then tried to say that acting like robin hood would only move you good, not neutral. So, I had to make it very clear (or, as a turn of phrase, "spell it out") that this is not the case. Perhaps I misread your argument, but that's how I read it. (I suppose if you don't think a character can "shift neutral" then sure, acting like robin hood could only shift you good. But that's not something I'll agree to.)
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Post by malclave on Jan 22, 2022 16:57:37 GMT -5
I guess I should have expanded on my statement. I did not mean that I believe merely summoning the swarm is worth evil points. Indeed, I agree with you that in most cases it is the use of the swarm which should determine that. However, I do still feel that using the swarm against anything with an Int of 1 or more is most likely an evil act. But by "using" you mean "attacking", no? Or do you mean that the stun from the swarm is evil? If the stun is completely passive and there is zero risk of the bugs attacking anything, I might be persuaded otherwise. Although if it's completely passive, it should potentially affect everyone.
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Post by iamthecircle on Jan 22, 2022 17:08:10 GMT -5
If the stun is completely passive and there is zero risk of the bugs attacking anything, I might be persuaded otherwise. Although if it's completely passive, it should potentially affect everyone. True, it should. I'd probably say that one's allies know better than to look at the scintillating group of lights, though. That's an interesting question. To my knowledge, though, the stun is passive and while there's not zero risk of them attacking, the only time I've seen them do so is when the proc'd an attack of opportunity and retaliated before the wizard pulled the quickly back.
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Post by malclave on Jan 22, 2022 17:12:40 GMT -5
The tactics you are referring to are "using the shiny locusts to stun enemies, then letting the rest of the party beat on them or maybe stuff them full of crossbow bolts". Is that something a good person would do? Yes.[ Personally, I would say killing a defenceless target feels “wrong” to a good signed character. it might feel wrong, but it's not necessarily alignment-shifting. If it were, then other things should be looked at as well, such as attacking opponents affected by Color Spray, Hold Person, or Flesh to Stone. What makes this different IMO is the description of being devoured by the insects while still alive.
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Post by Dakarizon (Shroud) on Jan 22, 2022 17:12:41 GMT -5
My point was “You can’t shift neutral”. You can shift TO neutral, but thats just a shift to either good/evil/law/chaos from an opposing position. But I suppose if you’re a paladin and you suddenly stop caring about good/evil you would shift towards neutral and fall as a paladin. Maybe by focusing too much on only the lawful alignment you slip away from good. Is that a shift to neutral? Or is abandoning good an evil act itself? I’m not actually sure.
I think the big difference here is you’re very focused on certain points, with a clear belief in what you believe in is correct. where I tend to bounce around different perspectives in my head and always try to consider that I might be incorrect. I can change my opinion very easily. All of our minds work differently, and I’m not discarding your words. But I definitely lose respect for someone making a point when I find the manner in which they communicate to be disrespectful or sarcastic. I think maybe it could be you were just frustrated that you were arguing with a brick wall, but it can feel that way from the other side too.
Anyway all I'm asking for is to relax a bit on the sarcasm/superiority if you care about engaging in conversation with all perspectives. Lecturing and mentioning how high your “standards” are is just a bit cringe
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Post by Dakarizon (Shroud) on Jan 22, 2022 17:16:34 GMT -5
If the stun is completely passive and there is zero risk of the bugs attacking anything, I might be persuaded otherwise. Although if it's completely passive, it should potentially affect everyone. True, it should. I'd probably say that one's allies know better than to look at the scintillating group of lights, though. That's an interesting question. To my knowledge, though, the stun is passive and while there's not zero risk of them attacking, the only time I've seen them do so is when the proc'd an attack of opportunity and retaliated before the wizard pulled the quickly back. Ill also mention that maybe if characters that have protection from evil active and find themselves immune to the effect might find themselves aware that the creatures aren’t benevolent … that could make things awkward. If you use radial “attack nearest enemy” the bugs will attack or if the player tool targets a creature. They just don’t have an attack animation so you don’t really notice it
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Post by iamthecircle on Jan 22, 2022 17:23:24 GMT -5
So a shift to neutral isn't a shift neutral? That seems unnecessarily specific. You're correct, I didn't consider that, because it seems oddly exclusionary. You can't shift good but you can shift to good. You can't shift evil but you can shift to evil... Its strange. By shifting to neutral you naturally receive neutral points, in the form of evil points. Things can be two things at once even if they're not called as much.
I don't feel superior, and I do consider all sides. I won't tone down the sarcasm, as its not how I argue. I'm focused on making specific points not because I believe they are correct but because I've yet to see an argument that sufficiently undermines them. If it seems like I'm not viewing things from other perspectives, looks at how I deal with Malcave. I'll happily view things from the perspective of someone with an argument that is sound (even if it is only "I feel...". That's a sound argument in this case). But I don't tend to entertain views to the same extent (I do still entertain them, but mostly only to try to shore up the holes in them) if the arguments by which they were arrived at aren't valid. Why would I seriously try to hold a view if the logical ground upon which it stands is "You can't argue with me here because I haven't made any claims, I've only said what I think is true"? The only reason to do so would be to see if I can find a better way to make that argument.
If you feel I'm being superior or not looking at things from your perspective, then I can only say that's unfortunate. I can't really apologize because it isn't the case.
And I don't know if pfe protects vs locust stun. I'd have to test that out.
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Post by malclave on Jan 22, 2022 17:36:28 GMT -5
So a shift to neutral isn't a shift neutral? That seems unnecessarily specific. You're correct, I didn't consider that, because it seems oddly exclusionary. You can't shift good but you can shift to good. You can't shift evil but you can shift to evil... Its strange. By shifting to neutral you naturally receive neutral points, in the form of evil points. Things can be two things at once even if they're not called as much. I think the idea is that "neutral acts" don't receive alignment points. Only acts associated with Good/ Evil or Law/ Chaos. Eating lunch will not eventually cause a Paladin to fall.
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