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Post by iamthecircle on Dec 28, 2021 20:17:56 GMT -5
I'd be interested in a rule clarification. I've seen players getting hit with CE points alignment shifts for even being in a party with an undead or for summoning creatures listed as evil (such as the locusts). The latter is more understandable, but I've never seen a player get LG points for being in a party that summons an angel, nor have I ever received points for acting in a LG manner in RP (Though I have received evil points for acting in a manner the DM believed to be evil). Is there anywhere that states when we would expect to get alignment points?
My thoughts on the matter are thus: "Good" and "Evil", "Law" and "Chaos" are physical entities in the FR setting. Summon an undead, you channel negative energy which has some contaminant effect. But one can still summon undead and act in a good way, it depends on how the player chooses to treat that contaminating effect. Is their character's very soul corrupted and they slowly perform more evil acts? Or do they continue to do good because they feel called to it, somehow? Good characters can perform evil acts without gaining evil alignment points, and evil characters can do good acts. Characters are human and make mistakes, a one-time evil act will not a soul stain with evil. As for L/C, I contend that not turning in a party member who is summoning undead or breaking the law is not chaotic. "Lawful" does not mean "obeying all laws", it means "following a personal code of conduct strictly (which may or may not correspond to the laws where you currently are). If this were not the case, any lawful character would have to instantly adhere to the laws of a given country the moment they stepped foot inside. For example, a paladin of Lathander would have to suddenly be ok with quite a variety of things Lathander frowns upon when going into Thay in order to obey the laws obviously, this is not the case, they would still smite all the undead. Similarly, not turning in someone for using undead in Cormyr isn't chaotic just because the laws say its not. If they were an advocate of how bad undead are and how just Cormyr is in having a law forbidding them, then an alignment shift would be justified.
This worries me because giving evil points is generally easier than giving good points as DMs are not always present to see and understand the intent of every character. PnP DMs can control the setting with a firmer hand because the setting doesn't exist without them. In NWN, a DM shows up, sees the character acting in an evil way, then gives evil points without much thought. Good characters shouldn't do evil, after all. But an evil character doing good, healing another character, giving to the poor/charity, etc. is probably part of their evil plot or pretense of being good, so no good points are delivered, despite these being "good" actions. Because I think character are human and not every evil act should give evil points but rather a trend of evil actions should give evil points, I don't think DMs on FRC can logistically give alignment points unless the player requests, then provides evidence to support their request that they should receive the points. There's just no way to monitor every action and for a good character to recoup lost evil points that are mindlessly taken. If there is already a rule in place to address this, then I'm happy to be corrected but I can't find anything about the topic with ease. Otherwise, I'd argue that there are very few cases where FRC DMs should give alignment points (unless its something blatant. Hard to argue that killing some civilian isn't evil, after all.)
As a side note, I was chatting with DM FS and came to understand that an easy, uncharitable, interpretation of the "Free XP Gains" rule is wrong. It is not saying that summoning a creature then letting it fight for you is rule-breaking, but rather that summoning a creature and letting it fight for you while there is not chance that your character will be in danger after the summon falls is rule-breaking. So, standing behind your summon and letting it kill enemies is fine, but standing behind it letting it kill summons while invisible is not. You should be in danger if the front line falls, basically, rather than a room or two away.
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Post by Raven on Dec 29, 2021 5:53:21 GMT -5
I can not speak to other DM action but only on my own actions and views and what and why I have done alignment tweaks.
I have given out evil points for summoning undead but in my instant that was to a druid. The evil point I felt merited by the violation of the druidic ethos. I do see your point in regards to angels and it has some merit. So all you blackguards you are here-by forewarned if I catch you in a party with an angel.
As for the good points/evil points I have given out far more good points than evil points for deeds done. Situations where kindness is shown have and may earn you a good point. Upholding the rules and laws of the land may also earn you a lawful point. Yes I do give those out. I will use the laws of Cormyr as my guideline since those rules and codes are representative to a "lawful good" nation. While I can see the presented view of a personal code of ethics being lawful basis please recognize the limitations that I as a DM may have in knowing your personal code of ethics. Hence I simply must defer to the laws of Cormyr as my guidelines.
For myself chaotic points are earned by doing chaotic things. Whimsical odd random, for myself you are more likely to earn a chaotic point as will a well timed prank. I don't often bestow chaotic points.
Acting to uphold your faith or engaging in actions that promote your faith or faithfulness may earn you a piety point.
I do agree that a one time action will not stain or redeem your soul. Hence the shift is by one point. Major transitions will shift matters by 5 points and the ritual of atonement more. Although atonement has serious ramifications which are made known prior to undertaking the action.
For myself generally people need to truely earn those evil points. For example seeing a wounded person on the road passing them by with indifference just doesn't cut it. Mocking them (doubtful but points for creativity count). Making their conditions purposefully worse will. You need to be a right ole (illegitimate child). Killing the helpless may (context matters), planned assassinations will as will human sacrifice. Summoning majour devils or demons will. Having an imp as a familiar wont but may over time put you in situations where your ethos will be challenged.
This is what I do or at least try and do. Just to bring a bit of clarity to the matter.
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Post by iamthecircle on Dec 29, 2021 6:34:17 GMT -5
That's a fair point on fewer evil than good points, its harder to do abject evil than it is to do a good deed. I understand the thing about one point, but points do add up over time, and if someone who is playing an evil character is seen doing good things but the DMs don't know what they're trying to do (pretend to be good in order to get into the good graces of someone, for example) and only come upon them when they're being kind, the points will add up. The fact that you say you can't know the personal code of a character is part of my whole point, DMs generally don't know that sort of thing unless they've been working closely with a character. Maybe a policy of nudging a character (Since developing a rule system for doleing out alignment points seems like it'd be far too complex and quite overboard given the lack of the severity of this issue) before dropping the point/points would be sensible, since alignment can be a very personal part of a character.
I'm also somewhat of the opinion that alignment shifts should be permitted more on a character-by-character basis. With rp and IC justifications, of course. Not "Hey, make my character lawful so I can become x class" but "Hey, my character has been acting in x way for y and z reasons, here are logs/other players' testimonials of my actions, shift my alignment."
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Post by DM Maleficent's Kiss on Dec 29, 2021 15:04:28 GMT -5
I don't touch alignments unless players are clearly doing something opposite of what their alignment says and I happen to see it. Even then usually I won't touch alignment unless something becomes an IC habit and even still...I would always address it first with the player OOC and let them know because just changing someones alignment creates more headache than it's worth in most cases. Most people do not take changing of their alignment well since there tends to be disagreement on too many levels without some kind of conversation about "why" taking place first. There is also the issue of this not being a true pnp experience where the DM can be present and see literally everything a character is doing or understand the players intent.
Having said that there are some things that are going to most likely earn an automatic few points of evil. If a cleric of Torm is summoning an undead and I see it I'm probably going to talk to you immediately OOC as to why and what is going on, then hit you with some alignment points towards evil(maybe chaotic too depending on the situation). I would always give a reason as to why this is happening though and again, that's why we talk about it.
The only other time I touch alignment is when a player wants to gravitate their character towards something with good IC reason and have logged these changes through an IC post on the forums, or logs from key RP moments in game which they can provide. If they don't feel comfortable posting it on the open forums they're free to PM me the IC story as well.
As for the XP gains...are you going invisible and hiding around a corner while your summon does all the work at no risk to yourself, only to pop out and heal your summon while under the effects of invisibility? If no, you have nothing to worry about. Healing while invisible is a little cheesy but it's not something we're going to harass you over.
Are you joining a group and sitting way way back from the group(but still close enough to gain XP) then just standing there while the group does all the work with the intent to just "stay safe" until the monsters are dead? If no, you have nothing to worry about.
These are a few examples, there are more specifics we could get into but I hope that at least makes a good enough point of the main situations where this kind of behavior has taken place.
This was written for extreme cases, not people engaging in meaningful RP or playing a role. It's all in relation to exploiting the AI and not giving monsters a chance to counter anything yet benefiting from them dying regardless. Going invisible isn't a crime but something players should be aware of is that 95% of the AI on FRC have no way of countering invisible characters. Short of a dragon with true seeing there isn't a whole lot of monsters that have much chance to get at your character. This is fair to make mention of since what we could do is give more dungeon AI monsters true seeing or nerf invisibility to 1 round per caster level(which would be terrible and no we aren't talking about this it's just an example). Instead, all we're asking is that players just don't use stealth, invisibility, or hiding around corners for large lengths of time to fudge or completely avoid the AI with the sole intent of gaining XP with no risk to your character, that's really the gist of it.
This also wouldn't be a one or two time thing but an established habit we keep seeing repeat itself before we nudge you in most cases. If you're worried about this but have never been talked to about this so far in all your time here, you're probably not doing what the XP gains rule is specifically referring to. We aren't sitting upstairs watching and waiting for people to screw up or break some little rule so we can drop the hammer on them. Even in the case of ooc running for example, we usually only address this with a player when we watch someone run through multiple areas non stop for a given length of time, or if we've already addressed this with you prior to seeing it again. We don't just immediately jump to someone, see them running for 5 seconds and exact judgement.
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Post by iamthecircle on Dec 29, 2021 15:41:55 GMT -5
As for the XP gains...are you going invisible and hiding around a corner while your summon does all the work at no risk to yourself, only to pop out and heal your summon while under the effects of invisibility? If no, you have nothing to worry about. Healing while invisible is a little cheesy but it's not something we're going to harass you over. Are you joining a group and sitting way way back from the group(but still close enough to gain XP) then just standing there while the group does all the work with the intent to just "stay safe" until the monsters are dead? If no, you have nothing to worry about. These are a few examples, there are more specifics we could get into but I hope that at least makes a good enough point of the main situations where this kind of behavior has taken place. This was written for extreme cases, not people engaging in meaningful RP or playing a role. It's all in relation to exploiting the AI and not giving monsters a chance to counter anything yet benefiting from them dying regardless. Going invisible isn't a crime but something players should be aware of is that 95% of the AI on FRC have no way of countering invisible characters. Short of a dragon with true seeing there isn't a whole lot of monsters that have much chance to get at your character. This is fair to make mention of since what we could do is give more dungeon AI monsters true seeing or nerf invisibility to 1 round per caster level(which would be terrible and no we aren't talking about this it's just an example). Instead, all we're asking is that players just don't use stealth, invisibility, or hiding around corners for large lengths of time to fudge or completely avoid the AI with the sole intent of gaining XP with no risk to your character, that's really the gist of it. This also wouldn't be a one or two time thing but an established habit we keep seeing repeat itself before we nudge you in most cases. If you're worried about this but have never been talked to about this so far in all your time here, you're probably not doing what the XP gains rule is specifically referring to. We aren't sitting upstairs watching and waiting for people to screw up or break some little rule so we can drop the hammer on them. Even in the case of ooc running for example, we usually only address this with a player when we watch someone run through multiple areas non stop for a given length of time, or if we've already addressed this with you prior to seeing it again. We don't just immediately jump to someone, see them running for 5 seconds and exact judgement. A) I do realize that most rules won't be shoved down our throats unless they're immediately able to be solved, such as running or metagaming. B) The uncharitable reading of the rule, since the first line says "letting summons fight with little to no risk to your character" or something along those lines (uncharitable and, apparently, more common) is that any degree of separation between the character and combat violates this rule. So, having a summon do the fighting while you stand to the side watching combat happen contains little to no risk. Even if you whip out a crossbow, this still violates the rule. You take upon yourself little to no risk. This was the reading I and many others initially had. Only after chatting with FS about it did I realize it only means when the character is entirely separate from combat and has no risk of being attacked, such as when they are invisible or in another room. It may be worth being more clear that simply letting summons fight for your character does not violate this rule, what tips into this area is when a character is not in danger if the front-line falls. Which is, in my opinion, not well laid out. And also why I figured I'd mention it so people who might have read it as I did can see this and be assuaged. Perhaps a sentence along the lines of "this rule is broken when your character is not in immediate danger when the fighters in front fall" is warranted to clear up any further misunderstandings. C) Admit it, you're totally sitting back waiting for someone to screw up. Patiently waiting, like a lioness waiting to strike.
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Post by DM Maleficent's Kiss on Dec 29, 2021 16:06:11 GMT -5
Sheesh...Circle you're so hopeless...
And of course I'm waiting to strike down Gias, he's constantly in violation... darn necromancers.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Dec 29, 2021 17:16:02 GMT -5
It is harder to judge when someones shifting good rather than shifting evil, mostly because unless openly evil it's usually just to blend in. I have fairly consistently been a good guy for a decade now and only received a couple of good points, but my fall came -quickly- like in a period of two weeks. Essentially I have been evil in alignment for years and years now and haven't commited a straight up evil act in most of that time. Just probably paying attention more to that angle is probably needed. It's tough to find atonement unless you seek out a DM and say hey be watching I am going to atone. I think the shifts can happen both ways, concerted effort, and gradual good or bad deeds.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2021 18:11:53 GMT -5
It is harder to judge when someones shifting good rather than shifting evil, mostly because unless openly evil it's usually just to blend in. I have fairly consistently been a good guy for a decade now and only received a couple of good points, but my fall came -quickly- like in a period of two weeks. Essentially I have been evil in alignment for years and years now and haven't commited a straight up evil act in most of that time. Just probably paying attention more to that angle is probably needed. It's tough to find atonement unless you seek out a DM and say hey be watching I am going to atone. I think the shifts can happen both ways, concerted effort, and gradual good or bad deeds. The whole system of alignment shifts is completely hosed. Davice has received 4 auto-chaotic bumps (no small thing for a paladin) due to actions committed by other party members not even in the same room with him. Things he wouldn't even have known about except for the OOC bump message. Tried to get him to stop but his English was so bad he didn't even know what the word 'coffin' meant. Never broke any law ever, yet received 4 bumps away from lawfulness. Did not get the slightest sympathy when pleading about this to the DM team. "Do lawful things' I was told and you will get lawful bumps. Yeah right.
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Post by malclave on Dec 29, 2021 18:19:23 GMT -5
As for the XP gains...are you going invisible and hiding around a corner while your summon does all the work at no risk to yourself, only to pop out and heal your summon while under the effects of invisibility? If no, you have nothing to worry about. Healing while invisible is a little cheesy but it's not something we're going to harass you over. That's what I was wondering about. If I try to solo my wizard, it's usually Summon, buff/ ward with around 6-10 spells, and then follow invisibly while it fights, healing it if need be, or breaking invisible and directly participating if it looks like it's called for. That leaves me enough spells, after buffing myself and 2 Summoned creatures (the 1st usually goes home before the dungeon's complete), to join in on the "boss" fight with combat spells. It sounds like that's no longer allowed, even though it's at least as "risky" as a designated healer staying back, which is okay.
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Post by malclave on Dec 29, 2021 18:41:40 GMT -5
I've had different characters get alignment points, mostly towards Good or Law. A few I've asked for (not looking to change alignment, just things in DM events where I thought my NG cleric had been acting a bit too Lawful), but they've mostly been spontaneous. I haven't gotten any points that could affect class standing, but my Dwarven Defender has been in occasionally recurring situations where he could legitimately be given Chaotic points.
I think the DMs are generally good about the points awarded. I don't know about awarding Chaos and Evil points just for being in a party where someone else summoned undead, but there may have been extenuating circumstances.
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Post by DM Maleficent's Kiss on Dec 29, 2021 19:25:23 GMT -5
As for the XP gains...are you going invisible and hiding around a corner while your summon does all the work at no risk to yourself, only to pop out and heal your summon while under the effects of invisibility? If no, you have nothing to worry about. Healing while invisible is a little cheesy but it's not something we're going to harass you over. That's what I was wondering about. If I try to solo my wizard, it's usually Summon, buff/ ward with around 6-10 spells, and then follow invisibly while it fights, healing it if need be, or breaking invisible and directly participating if it looks like it's called for. That leaves me enough spells, after buffing myself and 2 Summoned creatures (the 1st usually goes home before the dungeon's complete), to join in on the "boss" fight with combat spells. It sounds like that's no longer allowed, even though it's at least as "risky" as a designated healer staying back, which is okay. You're fine...
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TrueBlueOriginal
Old School
Kiraย Pashar Divineย Temptressย ofย Sharess ๐
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Post by TrueBlueOriginal on Dec 29, 2021 21:50:56 GMT -5
The whole system of alignment shifts is completely hosed. Davice has received 4 auto-chaotic bumps (no small thing for a paladin) due to actions committed by other party members not even in the same room with him. Things he wouldn't even have known about except for the OOC bump message. Tried to get him to stop but his English was so bad he didn't even know what the word 'coffin' meant. Never broke any law ever, yet received 4 bumps away from lawfulness. Did not get the slightest sympathy when pleading about this to the DM team. "Do lawful things' I was told and you will get lawful bumps. Yeah right. I didn't think there were any auto-alignment shift scripts left on FRC. Are they back, or was this a long time ago?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2021 0:15:04 GMT -5
The whole system of alignment shifts is completely hosed. Davice has received 4 auto-chaotic bumps (no small thing for a paladin) due to actions committed by other party members not even in the same room with him. Things he wouldn't even have known about except for the OOC bump message. Tried to get him to stop but his English was so bad he didn't even know what the word 'coffin' meant. Never broke any law ever, yet received 4 bumps away from lawfulness. Did not get the slightest sympathy when pleading about this to the DM team. "Do lawful things' I was told and you will get lawful bumps. Yeah right. I didn't think there were any auto-alignment shift scripts left on FRC. Are they back, or was this a long time ago? It was the crypt in Thunderstone. I forget how long ago it was, it wasn't very recent no.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Dec 30, 2021 0:30:52 GMT -5
It is harder to judge when someones shifting good rather than shifting evil, mostly because unless openly evil it's usually just to blend in. I have fairly consistently been a good guy for a decade now and only received a couple of good points, but my fall came -quickly- like in a period of two weeks. Essentially I have been evil in alignment for years and years now and haven't commited a straight up evil act in most of that time. Just probably paying attention more to that angle is probably needed. It's tough to find atonement unless you seek out a DM and say hey be watching I am going to atone. I think the shifts can happen both ways, concerted effort, and gradual good or bad deeds. The whole system of alignment shifts is completely hosed. Davice has received 4 auto-chaotic bumps (no small thing for a paladin) due to actions committed by other party members not even in the same room with him. Things he wouldn't even have known about except for the OOC bump message. Tried to get him to stop but his English was so bad he didn't even know what the word 'coffin' meant. Never broke any law ever, yet received 4 bumps away from lawfulness. Did not get the slightest sympathy when pleading about this to the DM team. "Do lawful things' I was told and you will get lawful bumps. Yeah right. My own post here was less a complaint and more just saying hey there is a general need here. The majority of the DM Team is new at this point and has no link to this past oversight, and as noted by myself and someone else, truly giving evil to good shifts requires lots of watching a single player. Alignment is unfortunately one of those things that get overlooked. It kind of stays frozen and static instead of being truly dynamic. I am not blaming anyone, I am just saying hey maybe this could be done a little better sometimes.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Dec 30, 2021 0:32:10 GMT -5
I didn't think there were any auto-alignment shift scripts left on FRC. Are they back, or was this a long time ago? It was the crypt in Thunderstone. I forget how long ago it was, it wasn't very recent no. It's probably been 8-10 years since we had any autoshifting spells or quests.
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Post by DOT on Dec 30, 2021 0:41:45 GMT -5
It was the crypt in Thunderstone. I forget how long ago it was, it wasn't very recent no. It's probably been 8-10 years since we had any autoshifting spells or quests. There was a bug that occurred after an update a few weeks or months back that reactivated, was resolved soon after apparently
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Post by Raven on Dec 30, 2021 1:22:30 GMT -5
Just as a note to any of the ethically challenged who are trying to mask their true intension by a false front and are worried about the accumulation of good deeds. Just let the team know. We can, will, and do make allowances. Just give the team a brief synopsis of why you are doing this and what are the aims. Now do keep in mind that your evil overlords do have only a limited patience for results but still are quite willing to make allowances for their wolf in sheep's clothing.
As for your code of conduct, well let the team know. Simply write it out or at least give us a guideline. You still might have to accept the alignment change but in the words of the sort of saga Lloyd Christmas
"So you're telling me there is a chance?"
Maybe lol Context matters
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Post by iamthecircle on Dec 30, 2021 1:26:42 GMT -5
Unfortunately, due to the nature of NWN DMs who aren't DMs in the traditional sense and can't control every aspect, nor be there to watch every character, shifting alignment is something that really can't happen easily. Unless its an extreme breech (such as a druid summoning undead), I'd argue no shifts should be given and that any directions players want to go in, no matter how extreme, should be permitted provided there is an IC reason and logs to evidence the shift. Some sort of guidelines should also be adopted, so as to stop random chaotic shifts happening when someone summons an undead in the party. This is the most egregious example of this I've seen, A lawful character getting chaotic points for fighting alongside someone who summons an undead. I give my reasons for why this is unreasonable above.
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Post by Raven on Dec 30, 2021 5:43:55 GMT -5
To any and all if you think a DM has over-stepped, made a mistake or maybe wrong you can always just contact the team. Now I understand that some might think doing such is a waste of time. It isn't. If you do not feel comfortable with that approach certainly reach out to any of the Player Assistants.
DM's here are accountable for there actions and I have been called onto the carpet myself. Complaints are taken seriously and discussed among the team. Keep in mind there are several members and at times matters can take a bit to be resolved. If you think something was done in the game that is aggress or unfair please do reach out to the team or the Player assistants.
As to no alignment shifts, well we agree to disagree. For me actions do have consequence, other opinions may differ.
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Post by iamthecircle on Dec 30, 2021 6:15:28 GMT -5
Like I said, not "no alignment shifts", that would be a bit silly. Rather, the alignment shifts should only be given at moments when there is a conflict with class or the DM knows for a fact that the player has conflicted with their own beliefs. But I've seen situations where a DM gives an alignment shift after seeing something trivial, then argued with the player asking for a refund because they felt it was justified (The point I'll keep going back to is summoning undead leading to chaotic points being granted to party members). If a DM comes along an evil player who has only done good things, there's still no reason to give good points, after all. No matter how many good things they do, if the actions are done with the intent to keep the evil they intend to do in the future intact, the good actions should not be granted good point... Or the evil characters on the server would all simply be "good", no? I suspect 99% or more of the characters who are evil on the server perform plenty of good acts in order to not get mobbed by all the good players. Thus, only in circumstances where DMs are certain the act crosses the stated boundaries of a character should that character receive a shift.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2021 7:11:48 GMT -5
It was the crypt in Thunderstone. I forget how long ago it was, it wasn't very recent no. It's probably been 8-10 years since we had any autoshifting spells or quests. The auto shift was for opening coffins and it was 1 or 2 years ago this happened. Whole party received the shifts because of one person.
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Post by Sioladuil on Dec 30, 2021 7:44:34 GMT -5
*watches in hunger*
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Post by malclave on Dec 30, 2021 10:57:58 GMT -5
It's probably been 8-10 years since we had any autoshifting spells or quests. The auto shift was for opening coffins and it was 1 or 2 years ago this happened. Whole party received the shifts because of one person. There was about a month in early 2019 (per the Module Update thread) where some quests would give alignment points again. IIRC, it was changed back at least partly because if a character changes alignment the number is set to the middle of the new alignment's range (i.e., if my NG cleric gets enough Lawful points to go from 69 to 70, she'll actually jump from 69 to 85). At least with a DM awarding points, they could then move it back to 70, making RP on the edge of an alignment change easier.
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Dec 30, 2021 12:50:33 GMT -5
It's probably been 8-10 years since we had any autoshifting spells or quests. The auto shift was for opening coffins and it was 1 or 2 years ago this happened. Whole party received the shifts because of one person. Yeah, we know thats how it used to work, I didn't realize there was any alignment shifting scripts left that far along, they were on the way out back in my early FRC years. I think they were supposed to have all been removed around the same time that raising undead stopped giving evil points.
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Post by Animayhem on Dec 30, 2021 13:00:57 GMT -5
I think the alignment which gets more dings possibly when it should not is true neutrals and neutrals in general. Marister got hit pretty hard a while back ti took a long time to get them changed. This was during a dm plot.This was a few years ago.It was resolved.
I just hope the revamped dm team edms, dms old and new will actually listen and try to understand why a character did what they did. Am I saying no one should get alignment shifts? No shifts should be done.
DM's do have their own plans and outcomes for events but with respect, it should not cloud their judgment in relation to the players and their involvement.
DM's are not mind readers so players can let them know as well.
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Post by DM Sauron on Dec 30, 2021 14:24:44 GMT -5
When we hand out alignment shifts, we try to assess the situation first. This is just an example... *A necormancer summons undead and paladins are partied up with him/her and witnessed it*. - In order to give the paladins evil and chaos points we take into account: a) What are the paladins going to do about it? Are they going to destroy the undead? Are they going to try and convince the summoner to unsummon the undead? Are the paladins going to report this to law? Are the paladins going to leave party or be ready to PvP the summoner if things escalate to it? Yes, it is not the paladin's fault that the necromancer or caster summoned undead or devils and demons, but it is the paladins sacred duty to do something about it.
b) What is or was happening during it and since when? Is the paladin constantly letting his/her necro friend do this? c) The OOC factor Was this during a large DM event, where there is confussion, dead PCs/NPCs, lag, crashes, etc? Was this during a generic dungeon run? Don't be afraid of conflict, potential PvP, or to lose your weekly dungeon run XP and GP due to it. Do your best to portray what your character would do, not what you as player would do.
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Post by iamthecircle on Dec 30, 2021 14:34:10 GMT -5
The reason I bring up the specific example of necromancers and undead is due to an anecdote I was told. Another Character... LN? LE? I forget his alignment, but not good, and lawful. He was in a party with another player who summoned an undead. He's a wizard, and expressed interest. After the dungeon run was finished, a DM gave him chaotic points because the law in cormyr forbids summoning undead. I don't know who the DM was or whether he appealed (though I do know a few other vaguely similar instances where the appeal was ignored and they were told the law is the law), but the point remains that he was given chaotic points because he was complicit in an act that violated the law of the land he was currently in. Seeing so many DMs say they wouldn't do this is heartening, but some DMs (at least one) does. Internal guidelines might be called for, simply to standardize the practice.
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Post by DM Sauron on Dec 30, 2021 14:59:27 GMT -5
The reason I bring up the specific example of necromancers and undead is due to an anecdote I was told. Another Character... LN? LE? I forget his alignment, but not good, and lawful. He was in a party with another player who summoned an undead. He's a wizard, and expressed interest. After the dungeon run was finished, a DM gave him chaotic points because the law in cormyr forbids summoning undead. I don't know who the DM was or whether he appealed (though I do know a few other vaguely similar instances where the appeal was ignored and they were told the law is the law), but the point remains that he was given chaotic points because he was complicit in an act that violated the law of the land he was currently in. Seeing so many DMs say they wouldn't do this is heartening, but some DMs (at least one) does. Internal guidelines might be called for, simply to standardize the practice.
This is exactly what Player Advocates, logs and screenshots are for.
If there is doubt and concerns, reach out. If you don't, then it will indeed be up to the individual DM's point of view.
As for the incident described above, we received no such a complaint or proof.
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Post by Penguin on Jan 7, 2022 10:14:35 GMT -5
From my own standpoint, if I am to give out any short of shift, it will be following multiple instances against a characters base alignment. If I see they are neutral good, and several times while I am on I see them travelling with an undead creature, either summoned or not, I will let them know I have seen several times, and they are receiving an alignment shift. Unless something massive is going on, I will only ever keep the shift to one point. If it continues, they receive another shift of a point after I have let them know it has been observed to continue. The player always has the option of explaining their point of view, and if they are truly upset or find their character being unduly affected then the door is open to engage in some means by which their character can get back to where the player feels they are supposed to be.
Now I totally want to go around handing out good points to all those evils playing nice. Evils beware!!
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Post by vulpes on Jan 13, 2022 13:32:42 GMT -5
From my own standpoint, if I am to give out any short of shift, it will be following multiple instances against a characters base alignment. If I see they are neutral good, and several times while I am on I see them travelling with an undead creature, either summoned or not, I will let them know I have seen several times, and they are receiving an alignment shift. Unless something massive is going on, I will only ever keep the shift to one point. If it continues, they receive another shift of a point after I have let them know it has been observed to continue. The player always has the option of explaining their point of view, and if they are truly upset or find their character being unduly affected then the door is open to engage in some means by which their character can get back to where the player feels they are supposed to be. Now I totally want to go around handing out good points to all those evils playing nice. Evils beware!! Does this count for good/ evil toons being around neutral summons, by your logic it should? I have never personally been given good shifts for being around good summons and never been given chaotic or neutral points despite one of my toons literally living with a Slaad ๐ but have been dinged for being around undead (which the rp behind was anything but evil). Just curious how itโs figured out as it seems snapshots from my experience? thanks!
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