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Post by Sioladuil on Dec 16, 2021 7:48:17 GMT -5
Hello Team,
Quick one from me - I know that traditionally the Blackguard obtains their powers from brokering a deal with an evil fiend... but would it be possible to roleplay them as a champion of a dark god instead?
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Post by Raven on Dec 16, 2021 23:12:42 GMT -5
There are precedents for exactly that. Krysus Vaant was a blackguard champion of Gargauth so if the god is appropriate then yes.
Edit by DM Maleficent's Kiss: Basically...black gaurds can be "champions" for their cause or whoever they're serving but not in the sense as it relates to the CoT class. Yes Krysus Vaant was a champion for Gargauth but he wasn't a divine champion of Gargauth as it relates to the divine champion class, Krysus Vaant was still very much a black guard. This is our standing on FRC.
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Post by Sioladuil on Dec 17, 2021 12:27:48 GMT -5
There are precedents for exactly that. Krysus Vaant was a blackguard champion of Gargauth so if the god is appropriate then yes. Thanks Raven, good to see you still about you hero. I had figured as much, but; I wanted to make sure everything was above board and okay before I commit. |
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Post by DM Sauron on Dec 17, 2021 14:28:35 GMT -5
There are precedents for exactly that. Krysus Vaant was a blackguard champion of Gargauth so if the god is appropriate then yes. Thanks Raven, good to see you still about you hero. I had figured as much, but; I wanted to make sure everything was above board and okay before I commit. The answer to the OP is NO
Blackguards are not evil divine champions and should not be roleplayed as that.
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Post by DM Sauron on Dec 17, 2021 14:49:40 GMT -5
I think it could make sense if you see the class as representative of Divine Champion (in D&D Divine Champion can have any alignment). the CoT on NWN allows only non-evil alignments. And I've seen many use Blackguard instead for the Divine Champion. Divine Champion among elves isn't that weird. Blackguard on FRC is blackguard, not an evil divine champion. The blackguard must make a pact with an evil outsider. That could include a representative of an evil deity. However, Shevarash isn't evil. So no, Shevarash would not have blackguards that serve him because he is Chaotic Neutral, so doesn't qualify for the purposes of the blackguard's pact. Blackguard class should be used as a blackguard. Blackguards of evil deities do function in a similar capacity to evil divine champion, but they are still blackguards, not evil divine champions. They still make pacts with evil outsiders, those evil outsiders just happen to be evil deities. Shevarash can actually have divine champions on FRC, but their alignment would have to be non-evil due to the class limitation. As Shevarash is Chaotic Neutral himself (ie non-evil), that's not too much of a stretch. |
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Post by Raven on Dec 17, 2021 15:32:35 GMT -5
In champions of valor page 129 Krysus Vaant is listed as exactly a champion of Gargath. He receives his powers from that god and referred to specifically as a Blackguard. Now if the server wants to go in another direction all good. However from the source material precedence exists
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Post by mandene on Dec 17, 2021 15:34:54 GMT -5
Blackguard on FRC is blackguard, not an evil divine champion. The blackguard must make a pact with an evil outsider. That could include a representative of an evil deity. However, Shevarash isn't evil. So no, Shevarash would not have blackguards that serve him because he is Chaotic Neutral, so doesn't qualify for the purposes of the blackguard's pact. Blackguard class should be used as a blackguard. Blackguards of evil deities do function in a similar capacity to evil divine champion, but they are still blackguards, not evil divine champions. They still make pacts with evil outsiders, those evil outsiders just happen to be evil deities. Shevarash can actually have divine champions on FRC, but their alignment would have to be non-evil due to the class limitation. As Shevarash is Chaotic Neutral himself (ie non-evil), that's not too much of a stretch. Servers I used to play, used BG as a standin for divine champion for evil-aligned characters. Divine Champion should allow all alignments, but the NWN special case called "Champion of Torm" doesn't allow evil. That is why I suggested using BG for Shevarash (in 2015!).
But, as Munroe had pointed out, FRC doesn't do that.
Maybe we should remake Champion of Torm so that it's an actual Divine Champion, for the sake of evil characters.
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Post by Sioladuil on Dec 17, 2021 15:49:13 GMT -5
So one DM saying yes, one saying no.
Can I have some clarity 'cos that's confusing.
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Post by mandene on Dec 17, 2021 15:59:58 GMT -5
In champions of valor page 129 Krysus Vaant is listed as exactly a champion of Gargath. He receives his powers from that god and referred to specifically as a Blackguard. Now if the server wants to go in another direction all good. However from the source material precedence exists
This is a play with words.
A deity can consider someone a champion of their cause, without that someone being of the class "Divine Champion". I would caution against jumping to conclusion based on this. The same way someone on this server can be dubbed "knight" without actually having to take the Purple Dragon Knight class. And the same way you can be a Harper without having the Harper PRC.
Namecalling and classes are not the same thing.
I've had characters in the past, who had been deemed "a deity's champion", due to the way I roleplayed them. (Thought this wasn't on FRC).
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Post by mandene on Dec 17, 2021 16:07:46 GMT -5
So one DM saying yes, one saying no. Can I have some clarity 'cos that's confusing.
It's a "kind of yes, but no, but yes" reply.
According to the FRC precedence, you need to have a pact with an evil outsider to become a blackguard. An evil deity is by definition an evil outsider, so yes, you can become a blackguard bound to an evil deity.
But your blackguard class may not be considered a standin for a divine champion. You are a blackguard, an anti paladin, a servant of an evil power. With all that being a blackguard means.
However, you could be, by laypeople who don't know the in and outs of your class, be considered as a champion of your deity.
Got it?
[Edit]
However, you cannot become a blackguard of a neutral deity. So that is a hole that I'm perceiving on this server. You can't have an evil-aligned divine champion (the PRC) of a neutral deity that allows for evil clerics. It's this hole that I'm championing for. Some other servers use the blackguard class to fill this hole, FRC does not.
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Post by Sioladuil on Dec 17, 2021 16:15:32 GMT -5
So one DM saying yes, one saying no. Can I have some clarity 'cos that's confusing.
It's a "kind of yes, but no, but yes" reply.
According to the FRC precedence, you need to have a pact with an evil outsider to become a blackguard. An evil deity is by definition an evil outsider, so yes, you can become a blackguard bound to an evil deity.
But your blackguard class may not be considered a standin for a divine champion. You are a blackguard, an anti paladin, a servant of an evil power. With all that being a blackguard means.
However, you could be, by laypeople who don't know the in and outs of your class, be considered as a champion of your deity.
Got it?
[Edit]
However, you cannot become a blackguard of a neutral deity. So that is a hole that I'm perceiving on this server. You can't have an evil-aligned divine champion (the PRC) of a neutral deity that allows for evil clerics. It's this hole that I'm championing for. Some other servers use the blackguard class to fill this hole, FRC does not.
Yah, I already have two blackguards - I am pretty familiar with them  I will just wait for further clarity before I make a decision. |
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Post by DM Maleficent's Kiss on Dec 17, 2021 16:49:15 GMT -5
Thanks Raven, good to see you still about you hero. I had figured as much, but; I wanted to make sure everything was above board and okay before I commit. The answer to the OP is NO Blackguards are not evil divine champions and should not be roleplayed as that.
What Sauron said is correct. |
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Post by mandene on Dec 17, 2021 17:20:52 GMT -5
It's a "kind of yes, but no, but yes" reply.
According to the FRC precedence, you need to have a pact with an evil outsider to become a blackguard. An evil deity is by definition an evil outsider, so yes, you can become a blackguard bound to an evil deity.
But your blackguard class may not be considered a standin for a divine champion. You are a blackguard, an anti paladin, a servant of an evil power. With all that being a blackguard means.
However, you could be, by laypeople who don't know the in and outs of your class, be considered as a champion of your deity.
Got it?
[Edit]
However, you cannot become a blackguard of a neutral deity. So that is a hole that I'm perceiving on this server. You can't have an evil-aligned divine champion (the PRC) of a neutral deity that allows for evil clerics. It's this hole that I'm championing for. Some other servers use the blackguard class to fill this hole, FRC does not.
Yah, I already have two blackguards - I am pretty familiar with them I will just wait for further clarity before I make a decision. I kinda miss my bard/ secret divine champion (aka blackguard) of Loviatar. That performed Goth songs with a Banite (he did the growling parts). And in secret and full blackguard armor disguise she whipped local monsters to death. But that was long long ago on a server far far away. |
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Post by DM Foresight on Dec 17, 2021 17:32:22 GMT -5
Reminder: Please do not post in DM Q&A unless you are the OP or a DM.
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Post by Sioladuil on Dec 18, 2021 7:06:25 GMT -5
The answer to the OP is NO Blackguards are not evil divine champions and should not be roleplayed as that.
What Sauron said is correct. Thanks hero. |
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