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Post by Animayhem on Jan 21, 2022 14:52:02 GMT -5
*tries to put the thread back on topic* So, keeping in mind this effort to get people to explore, would it be frowned upon if a higher level character ends up going into a lower level place that they might not have been before? Right now, it's considered poor form to have your PC go somewhere that they don't even get hurt at, but if this timer is in effect, then should this be not so much of a concern anymore? I'll echo what was said before, that this could potentially harm players who really only go to the road spots to fill their pockets with "travel" funds. Cost for caravans and such (yes I'm talking about myself, go fig). So would I get a warning if I have my PC travel the southern road between GG and VR, taking on all the encounters, and clearing out the loot when she'd be considered a "high level"? I agree even high levels need pocket change now and again. Has farming roads for pocket change really been that bad? I usually have my characters stay on the road and not engage enemies so lower levels can still get the xp and loot. Do I personally do this often with any of them? No. SoI think timing on this not worth it.
I would really like to see loot and enemy respawn time shortened. Many times you meet up with a group or another, decide to go to a level appropriate dungeon or do a bounty and find out when you accept and go in some just left or is in it,
This is really frustrating since it is hard enough as it is to get a group together and discourages many in my opinion to travel in groups knowing their spells and buff etc may be wasted because nothing is spawning on a place they have not been to or seven days since.
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Post by malclave on Jan 21, 2022 15:00:25 GMT -5
That's one of the things the first post said is being worked on
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Post by Animayhem on Jan 21, 2022 15:01:08 GMT -5
That's one of the things the first post said is being worked on Thanks missed that
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Jan 23, 2022 10:01:15 GMT -5
*tries to put the thread back on topic* So, keeping in mind this effort to get people to explore, would it be frowned upon if a higher level character ends up going into a lower level place that they might not have been before? Right now, it's considered poor form to have your PC go somewhere that they don't even get hurt at, but if this timer is in effect, then should this be not so much of a concern anymore? I'll echo what was said before, that this could potentially harm players who really only go to the road spots to fill their pockets with "travel" funds. Cost for caravans and such (yes I'm talking about myself, go fig). So would I get a warning if I have my PC travel the southern road between GG and VR, taking on all the encounters, and clearing out the loot when she'd be considered a "high level"? This is a good question, since herb and venom crafters especially are very limited on where we can get giant ant venom. Really only two places I can think of on the entire server to get ant glands and the most opportune one is near greatgaunt within a low level area.
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Post by DM Flash on Jan 23, 2022 10:27:40 GMT -5
Wait hold up, Mynian kills stuff for gold? Since when?!
We took the feedback about the timezone issue with the timers, and the open areas vs a dungeons. Some areas are more vague than other. The Mistwood is considered a dungeon, along with Bloodsun Bugbears (an area prone to farming) and other areas like those two examples. But generally speaking, if you're on the same map as a road and there are loot containers nearby I personally don't see any issue conceding those areas. I also think it would be best to keep the spawns, but remove the xp/gold in the dungeon areas. That way if you do return it's not empty and players can still RP with their pals.
But the script has to have a timer to serve its purpose, and in most cases we dont take issue with "6 days and a few hours or 5 days so I can join this party" but the established timeframe has always been 7 days. I'd be interested to see how that works first before considering any reduction in the timer. Some players login every day while others only login on Sundays so it would mean something different for each player.
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Post by Animayhem on Jan 23, 2022 15:46:25 GMT -5
Wait hold up, Mynian kills stuff for gold? Since when?!
We took the feedback about the timezone issue with the timers, and the open areas vs a dungeons. Some areas are more vague than other. The Mistwood is considered a dungeon, along with Bloodsun Bugbears (an area prone to farming) and other areas like those two examples. But generally speaking, if you're on the same map as a road and there are loot containers nearby I personally don't see any issue conceding those areas. I also think it would be best to keep the spawns, but remove the xp/gold in the dungeon areas. That way if you do return it's not empty and players can still RP with their pals.
But the script has to have a timer to serve its purpose, and in most cases we dont take issue with "6 days and a few hours or 5 days so I can join this party" but the established timeframe has always been 7 days. I'd be interested to see how that works first before considering any reduction in the timer. Some players login every day while others only login on Sundays so it would mean something different for each player. Yes. My Sunday group is not the only planned adventures. There are others and many guilds come together for a jaunt.
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Post by malclave on Jan 23, 2022 17:17:26 GMT -5
But the script has to have a timer to serve its purpose, and in most cases we dont take issue with "6 days and a few hours or 5 days so I can join this party" but the established timeframe has always been 7 days. I'd be interested to see how that works first before considering any reduction in the timer. Some players login every day while others only login on Sundays so it would mean something different for each player. Understood that you want to try 7 days first, but if that's too strict then 6 days + 18 or 20 hours would give some leeway while still effectively being a week. Also, when would a PC's timer for a dungeon be set? Upon entering, or leaving? And if a dungeon has multiple maps, would each have a separate timer?
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shadou
Proven Member
Posts: 203
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Post by shadou on Feb 10, 2022 1:37:57 GMT -5
To be perfectly honest, I don't feel like the 7 day rule really serves its own purpose. To my understanding, the rule was put into place to combat farming; it meant to prevent characters returning to an area over and over just to farm gold and experience. It was designed to encourage characters to explore the server, go to new places, do new things. And in every case, I believe the dogged adherence to the letter of the rule will defeat the spirit of the rule.
Okay, sure. The rule does what it sets out to do. It's illegal to return to an area over and over to farm gold and experience. Come back to an area within 7 days, you're violating the letter of the rule, and have rightly earned your DM enforcement. Cut and dry there.
But what about the spirit of the rule? It's meant to encourage characters to explore the server. Well, the letter of the rule says that if I'm exploring, and I find a new place, poke my nose in, and find something that would be a good place to bring a group... since I entered the area and left, I have to wait a week before I can come back. I can't think of a better way to discourage exploration. Just thinking about it, I'd rather wait until someone else shows me the interesting new place and we can go in and clear it immediately, than go exploring and find a place that I wouldn't be able to visit again for a week just because I poked my nose in to see what was there. It seems backwards to me.
I also can't think of any rule that has been more obstructive to RP. It's hard to get a group of three or four active characters together and find something that none of them have done. It's almost getting to the point that I'm wanting to start a group spreadsheet with the other players of characters I frequently travel with, so we can coordinate when we can go where. When a spreadsheet has to be involved in the fun, it starts to look a lot like work to me. But that's where I'm coming to. A spreadsheet with a list of places, and the players can fill it in with all the places they've been, so we can easily find a place none of us have been without spending a half hour faffing about, having one or two run out of time or give up and leave, and then the group falls apart. The letter of the rule here RUINS RP, and it's generally not fun to not be able to find somewhere to go that everyone can go to.
And after mentioning it, the spreadsheet idea is starting to look better and better. Which makes me feel worse and worse about it.
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Post by dakashy on Feb 12, 2022 12:44:56 GMT -5
I hope this is the right place to put this. I’d love to see more clothing options. There’s like two good outfits for men and three for women. Give us more clothes please.
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Post by Moire Dhonait on Feb 12, 2022 16:47:32 GMT -5
Wow, this is really impressive! I am especially impressed with the player housing plans. I can see how it would be such a bummer to make some epic character a nice house only for them to say "ta da, my character is all finished. Now I don't need to play anymore."
Putting the encounter zones on an actual 7 day timer would do much for immersion. During my first encounters with it and seeing a little smoke refilling the loot locations, I thought I was witnessing some miracle. Better that they simply don't respawn at all until a week later. It feels much more realistic.
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Post by Moire Dhonait on Feb 12, 2022 16:51:00 GMT -5
But what about the spirit of the rule? It's meant to encourage characters to explore the server. Well, the letter of the rule says that if I'm exploring, and I find a new place, poke my nose in, and find something that would be a good place to bring a group... since I entered the area and left, I have to wait a week before I can come back. I can't think of a better way to discourage exploration. Just thinking about it, I'd rather wait until someone else shows me the interesting new place and we can go in and clear it immediately, than go exploring and find a place that I wouldn't be able to visit again for a week just because I poked my nose in to see what was there. It seems backwards to me. I also can't think of any rule that has been more obstructive to RP. It's hard to get a group of three or four active characters together and find something that none of them have done. It's almost getting to the point that I'm wanting to start a group spreadsheet with the other players of characters I frequently travel with, so we can coordinate when we can go where. When a spreadsheet has to be involved in the fun, it starts to look a lot like work to me. But that's where I'm coming to. A spreadsheet with a list of places, and the players can fill it in with all the places they've been, so we can easily find a place none of us have been without spending a half hour faffing about, having one or two run out of time or give up and leave, and then the group falls apart. The letter of the rule here RUINS RP, and it's generally not fun to not be able to find somewhere to go that everyone can go to. And after mentioning it, the spreadsheet idea is starting to look better and better. Which makes me feel worse and worse about it. These are very good points, actually. And too often DMs in my experience enforce the letter of a rule without thinking of the spirit of it and what it was meant to encourage in the first place. To poke in and out is part of a character's encountering a new area, seeing what it's about, gauging what they need, and then coming back prepared. I hope whatever new script wouldn't make a place and its loot disappear for a character for 7 days just if they looked in. That would actually BREAK immersion and contradict my last post. I think the script should trigger to prevent revisiting a dungeon once the final boss is killed.
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TrueBlueOriginal
Old School
Kira Pashar Divine Temptress of Sharess 💋
Posts: 414
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Post by TrueBlueOriginal on Feb 13, 2022 3:29:23 GMT -5
These are very good points, actually. And too often DMs in my experience enforce the letter of a rule without thinking of the spirit of it and what it was meant to encourage in the first place. To poke in and out is part of a character's encountering a new area, seeing what it's about, gauging what they need, and then coming back prepared. I hope whatever new script wouldn't make a place and its loot disappear for a character for 7 days just if they looked in. That would actually BREAK immersion and contradict my last post. I think the script should trigger to prevent revisiting a dungeon once the final boss is killed. A script that only triggers once the final boss is killed would encourage farming because then a person could just kill as many of the respawning enemies as they want as long as they don't kill the dungeon boss. If there were a check other than having entered the zone, it should probably be whether ANY monsters were killed or ANY loot taken. That way a party could still send in their scout to come back and report, but the spawns couldn't be abused for multiple kills per spawn. As long as the scout didn't fight or loot, the party is fine to progress.
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Post by Moire Dhonait on Feb 13, 2022 5:24:01 GMT -5
These are very good points, actually. And too often DMs in my experience enforce the letter of a rule without thinking of the spirit of it and what it was meant to encourage in the first place. To poke in and out is part of a character's encountering a new area, seeing what it's about, gauging what they need, and then coming back prepared. I hope whatever new script wouldn't make a place and its loot disappear for a character for 7 days just if they looked in. That would actually BREAK immersion and contradict my last post. I think the script should trigger to prevent revisiting a dungeon once the final boss is killed. A script that only triggers once the final boss is killed would encourage farming because then a person could just kill as many of the respawning enemies as they want as long as they don't kill the dungeon boss. If there were a check other than having entered the zone, it should probably be whether ANY monsters were killed or ANY loot taken. That way a party could still send in their scout to come back and report, but the spawns couldn't be abused for multiple kills per spawn. As long as the scout didn't fight or loot, the party is fine to progress. Okay, but maybe a bit more than one monster. So many times I accidentally get teleported out of zones - people call it the WASD bug? Or sometimes I am clicking on the next mob and he's dead so I end up clicking the transition zone.
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Post by Southpaw on Feb 13, 2022 9:47:50 GMT -5
These are very good points, actually. And too often DMs in my experience enforce the letter of a rule without thinking of the spirit of it and what it was meant to encourage in the first place. To poke in and out is part of a character's encountering a new area, seeing what it's about, gauging what they need, and then coming back prepared. I hope whatever new script wouldn't make a place and its loot disappear for a character for 7 days just if they looked in. That would actually BREAK immersion and contradict my last post. I think the script should trigger to prevent revisiting a dungeon once the final boss is killed. A script that only triggers once the final boss is killed would encourage farming because then a person could just kill as many of the respawning enemies as they want as long as they don't kill the dungeon boss. If there were a check other than having entered the zone, it should probably be whether ANY monsters were killed or ANY loot taken. That way a party could still send in their scout to come back and report, but the spawns couldn't be abused for multiple kills per spawn. As long as the scout didn't fight or loot, the party is fine to progress. I think the monster by monster basis of the timer proposed is the best option to balance all this. All you'd need to bust the whole dungeon run for the whole party is for the scout to get spotted by a monster and have to kill it when it attacks, and this would only make it that much more important to have a fully optimized stealth build that can never be spotted, because the enjoyability of entire dungeon runs would hang in the balance for entire parties on whether a scout gets spotted or not. It would also lead to the implausibility of the best way to clear a dungeon of all monsters being to get spotted by one monster and kill one monster, which would mean that a failure at stealth would lead to all monsters being gone from the dungeon, boss included.
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TrueBlueOriginal
Old School
Kira Pashar Divine Temptress of Sharess 💋
Posts: 414
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Post by TrueBlueOriginal on Feb 13, 2022 10:10:02 GMT -5
A script that only triggers once the final boss is killed would encourage farming because then a person could just kill as many of the respawning enemies as they want as long as they don't kill the dungeon boss. If there were a check other than having entered the zone, it should probably be whether ANY monsters were killed or ANY loot taken. That way a party could still send in their scout to come back and report, but the spawns couldn't be abused for multiple kills per spawn. As long as the scout didn't fight or loot, the party is fine to progress. I think the monster by monster basis of the timer proposed is the best option to balance all this. All you'd need to bust the whole dungeon run for the whole party is for the scout to get spotted by a monster and have to kill it when it attacks, and this would only make it that much more important to have a fully optimized stealth build that can never be spotted, because the enjoyability of entire dungeon runs would hang in the balance for entire parties on whether a scout gets spotted or not. It would also lead to the implausibility of the best way to clear a dungeon of all monsters being to get spotted by one monster and kill one monster, which would mean that a failure at stealth would lead to all monsters being gone from the dungeon, boss included. Yeah, probably better to track it on a per-encounter basis, rather than by the first monster. I assume a per-encounter basis is how it will actually be implemented. I just really don't think it's a good idea to not count the dungeon visited unless the boss is defeated. If the party dies and has to respawn, the boss may not be defeated, but that is still the weekly visit.
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Post by Southpaw on Feb 13, 2022 10:54:59 GMT -5
Yeah, probably better to track it on a per-encounter basis, rather than by the first monster. I assume a per-encounter basis is how it will actually be implemented. I just really don't think it's a good idea to not count the dungeon visited unless the boss is defeated. If the party dies and has to respawn, the boss may not be defeated, but that is still the weekly visit. I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense. I would agree it would be cheesy if you cleared the whole dungeon and then had the whole thing respawn an hour later or something, just because you didn't killed the boss. At the same time, the idea with the per-encounter timer is that if the boss is the only thing you didn't kill, then it's the only thing that would be there if you go back. And this would be entirely logical and plausible IC. You have to remember the original intent of the 7 day rule, that being to stop people from running repetitive laps through the same dungeon, doing the same dungeon over and over and over ad nauseum to pump up their gold and XP, having cleared everything repeatedly, boss included. Going back to clear a dungeon you retreated from was never the intended target behavior. That was bycatch and collateral damage that the DM team was aware of, and apologized for over the years as collateral damage that they said was unavoidable. This new approach walks back that bycatch and collateral damage.
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TrueBlueOriginal
Old School
Kira Pashar Divine Temptress of Sharess 💋
Posts: 414
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Post by TrueBlueOriginal on Feb 13, 2022 17:03:36 GMT -5
Yeah, probably better to track it on a per-encounter basis, rather than by the first monster. I assume a per-encounter basis is how it will actually be implemented. I just really don't think it's a good idea to not count the dungeon visited unless the boss is defeated. If the party dies and has to respawn, the boss may not be defeated, but that is still the weekly visit. I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense. I would agree it would be cheesy if you cleared the whole dungeon and then had the whole thing respawn an hour later or something, just because you didn't killed the boss. At the same time, the idea with the per-encounter timer is that if the boss is the only thing you didn't kill, then it's the only thing that would be there if you go back. And this would be entirely logical and plausible IC. You have to remember the original intent of the 7 day rule, that being to stop people from running repetitive laps through the same dungeon, doing the same dungeon over and over and over ad nauseum to pump up their gold and XP, having cleared everything repeatedly, boss included. Going back to clear a dungeon you retreated from was never the intended target behavior. That was bycatch and collateral damage that the DM team was aware of, and apologized for over the years as collateral damage that they said was unavoidable. This new approach walks back that bycatch and collateral damage. Yes. I was responding to Moire Dhonait, who had suggested a dungeon should still respawn unless the boss was defeated. Handling the cool-down on a per-encounter basis is probably both the easiest method and best for handling repeat visits. Though it does mean if a party retreats or respawns, they can come right back to where they left off if it's within the cooldown period, and try it again with more resources because they didn't have to expend any resources to get that far that visit.
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Post by Spooks on Feb 13, 2022 17:19:48 GMT -5
I'm gonna 'muse' on some things about the new 7 day rule. Joe sees his friends wanting to clear the goblin fort. He did goblin fort, 7ish days ago, and he agrees to attend with them. They arrive, and the place is empty. Do players get an OOC notification that 'Joe' has to wait 5 more hours before coming back? If they just boot him, and rezone will the fort now magically have monsters? A bit immersion breaking and also fairly exploitable, and thus require DM policing? (Jim spawns it for Joe, and they party up after it spawns everything.) If someone dies or has to back out half way through, do the spawn tables and containers know who was in the party when said container was opened, or if the original party cleared the whole dungeon, is that player who left part way through now going to meet an empty dungeon all the way through? Could a system that generates 'partial' spawns be enacted? If they came here yesterday, nothing. If they came 3 days ago, maybe one or two containers have loot, or it's all a low balled loot table, with minimum spawns. Day 5 is half power/loot. Day 7 is full loot. People could USE that system to take lowbies through a reduced power cave, to teach them the layout. People who walk to the desert aren't sitting with nothing to do after a 20 minute walk, to be faced with an empty dungeon, cause people don't track their dungeon clearing with spreadsheets and timers. Don't get me wrong, and I understand that, its precisely because some people -do- try to grind to get high level ASAP, that these systems exist... But if you make a system where only the -best- loot and xp is gained by a 7 day wait, then it encourages people wanting the best rewards to wait, while allowing people who just wanna do stuff while making friends, -something- even if it's not the most. Inversely... make dungeons keep GOING. Noone in the party has been in like 2 weeks? Well the spawns and loot are WAY more tough. Lock DC's are higher and spawns are bigger. Give Epics who were gone for months, something challenging to re-engage them. I may chime in more if I think of stuff. Feel free to pick apart my thoughts. Edit: I think it's valuable to reward people for being good 'citizens'. If the intent is to discourage people from farming dungeons and nauseum, reward them for waiting -longer-. This gets them out of the dungeons and into the towns to RP. Perhaps prompt people before entering if they want a tougher spawn if they haven't done it in a while.
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Post by verycoldbeer on Feb 15, 2022 15:21:42 GMT -5
I have said this before but I will say it again because it's still true now; in 10 years of playing FRC, I have never seen a DM TPK on purpose. Many times I have been with groups where we weren't able to rise to a challenge or a DM has miscalculated the difficulty of an encounter but every time they have helped the party get out of the mess. Even in times when I dont think they should have (as in we messed up the fight and died to a beatable encounter) but they still let us escape somehow. 1) I left for the most part because I didn't have the time to put in to a game. I was busy: when I had another server I was DMing on and then Head DMing for (A NwN2 server the horror), and blah blah blah. And now I've been lured back by my friends. Mainly Nettie cause she is perfect in all ways. 2) But I have been on purpose TPKed on this server and the DM (DM Thann maybe, it was Teneas but can't remember his DM handle) told us he did it and left us dead and we all respawned. I have no issue respawning, I have no issue dying. There were a few others, where I was chastised for strange things that weren't "rule" breaking but a DM decided they didn't like it. Some from Penguin some from this or that. A DM (I would remember the handle if I saw it but it was someone I had never seen before at the time.) Once told me out of the blue "You are leveling too fast" and took some xp away from my character. This was when Evaliir and Bryce were palling about. Though sorry for using you Andros, you are my sweet muffin of deliciousness don't tell anyone. 3) I've had some bad experiences as a dm and I've had some horrible experiences as a player. My only concern about this player housing thing is that the furniture will disappear all the time and you will have to put it back in again over and over and over. So I do enjoy a more uploadable style, I'm not sure how functional that is with EE. 4) As for the seven day rule, it's a bit annoying having to try and remember when you did stuff. I know some who write it down in their journals with psychotic OCD accuracy. And some like me who just go.. well, I think it was a long time. Or rely on my traveling peeps to remember. Mostly I end up doing stuff every two weeks to be safe. If a script can help rock on, I have a feeling that script is going to be a bit arsey and have issues. But if it works good.. cool beans. 5) Some players from guilds have flat out told me they won't be back because of how they their guild was treated and they will probably be back if they aren't back already. 6) The most concerning thing that I have been told from a number of players since coming back is DMs using their characters in plots or giving OOC information about their character with no conversation from that DM before doing it. As a DM I have always asked a player before using their character in one of my plots to make sure it wouldn't be something that they would avoid like the plague or would want to be involved in. I've had only a few peeps say no thanks. I never mind horrible things happening to my character, or consequences for my actions ICly. I don't mean asking a player before they reap IC consequences for their IC actions. I mean using their character in something that didn't originate from their own actions and then acting as if they are being a baby because they don't want to be part of that DM plot. 7) I used to be happy when a DM followed us and started to RP, but that's no longer my instant reaction. Now it's one of trepidation, because I assume my character will get killed, or that I will be chased out of a dungeon without even getting inside it really. So, when a DM showed up to the rescue yesterday, I was very quiet because it's just not been the experience that I've had with DMs that I don't know. But I have been a bit conditioned to live in stranger danger, and to view DMs in a combative way. Which is the opposite of my DM mentality, where you are creating stories with players as it's a more collaborative medium. ((I.E. as the DM you are the host of the party and try to find a way to allow everyone to shine at some point, not try to "win" against the players. Obviously you can't allow them to just "win" all the time either with no effort. etc. )) ((P.S. I ain't got no shame in my game))
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Post by styxxbone1 on Feb 15, 2022 22:29:57 GMT -5
I remember Tinny Ass! The elf with an ass of tin...
styxx
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Post by Orc Face on Feb 16, 2022 10:43:47 GMT -5
I have said this before but I will say it again because it's still true now; in 10 years of playing FRC, I have never seen a DM TPK on purpose. Many times I have been with groups where we weren't able to rise to a challenge or a DM has miscalculated the difficulty of an encounter but every time they have helped the party get out of the mess. Even in times when I dont think they should have (as in we messed up the fight and died to a beatable encounter) but they still let us escape somehow. 1) I left for the most part because I didn't have the time to put in to a game. I was busy: when I had another server I was DMing on and then Head DMing for (A NwN2 server the horror), and blah blah blah. And now I've been lured back by my friends. Mainly Nettie cause she is perfect in all ways. 2) But I have been on purpose TPKed on this server and the DM (DM Thann maybe, it was Teneas but can't remember his DM handle) told us he did it and left us dead and we all respawned. I have no issue respawning, I have no issue dying. There were a few others, where I was chastised for strange things that weren't "rule" breaking but a DM decided they didn't like it. Some from Penguin some from this or that. A DM (I would remember the handle if I saw it but it was someone I had never seen before at the time.) Once told me out of the blue "You are leveling too fast" and took some xp away from my character. This was when Evaliir and Bryce were palling about. Though sorry for using you Andros, you are my sweet muffin of deliciousness don't tell anyone. 3) I've had some bad experiences as a dm and I've had some horrible experiences as a player. My only concern about this player housing thing is that the furniture will disappear all the time and you will have to put it back in again over and over and over. So I do enjoy a more uploadable style, I'm not sure how functional that is with EE. 4) As for the seven day rule, it's a bit annoying having to try and remember when you did stuff. I know some who write it down in their journals with psychotic OCD accuracy. And some like me who just go.. well, I think it was a long time. Or rely on my traveling peeps to remember. Mostly I end up doing stuff every two weeks to be safe. If a script can help rock on, I have a feeling that script is going to be a bit arsey and have issues. But if it works good.. cool beans. 5) Some players from guilds have flat out told me they won't be back because of how they their guild was treated and they will probably be back if they aren't back already. 6) The most concerning thing that I have been told from a number of players since coming back is DMs using their characters in plots or giving OOC information about their character with no conversation from that DM before doing it. As a DM I have always asked a player before using their character in one of my plots to make sure it wouldn't be something that they would avoid like the plague or would want to be involved in. I've had only a few peeps say no thanks. I never mind horrible things happening to my character, or consequences for my actions ICly. I don't mean asking a player before they reap IC consequences for their IC actions. I mean using their character in something that didn't originate from their own actions and then acting as if they are being a baby because they don't want to be part of that DM plot. 7) I used to be happy when a DM followed us and started to RP, but that's no longer my instant reaction. Now it's one of trepidation, because I assume my character will get killed, or that I will be chased out of a dungeon without even getting inside it really. So, when a DM showed up to the rescue yesterday, I was very quiet because it's just not been the experience that I've had with DMs that I don't know. But I have been a bit conditioned to live in stranger danger, and to view DMs in a combative way. Which is the opposite of my DM mentality, where you are creating stories with players as it's a more collaborative medium. ((I.E. as the DM you are the host of the party and try to find a way to allow everyone to shine at some point, not try to "win" against the players. Obviously you can't allow them to just "win" all the time either with no effort. etc. )) ((P.S. I ain't got no shame in my game)) I can understand some of your concerns and reservations. I’ve been burned by DMs who I felt were being somewhat malicious. (Taking XP from me for no reason, hard alignment changes with no IC reason, a dragon dropped on my in the middle of an ogre cave…) So I feel your pain… though it has been years since I played here, the DMs now, I feel are very cool to sum it up. Only issue I find is I wish they would get the amount of OOC// chatter down, but really as players of the server we should respect the rules and take it upon ourselves to do that. I enjoy DMs following me and giving some interaction because 1) you won’t get it on many other servers, 2)it adds a bit of off-redundancy and excitement to the adventure. That and I think they like doing that for the community which is appreciated.
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Post by verycoldbeer on Feb 16, 2022 13:37:55 GMT -5
I remember Tinny Ass! The elf with an ass of tin... styxx Furin loves elfish witches.. you can't lie to me! I know!
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Post by Raven on Feb 17, 2022 2:41:08 GMT -5
I have said this before but I will say it again because it's still true now; in 10 years of playing FRC, I have never seen a DM TPK on purpose. Many times I have been with groups where we weren't able to rise to a challenge or a DM has miscalculated the difficulty of an encounter but every time they have helped the party get out of the mess. Even in times when I dont think they should have (as in we messed up the fight and died to a beatable encounter) but they still let us escape somehow. 1) I left for the most part because I didn't have the time to put in to a game. I was busy: when I had another server I was DMing on and then Head DMing for (A NwN2 server the horror), and blah blah blah. And now I've been lured back by my friends. Mainly Nettie cause she is perfect in all ways. 2) But I have been on purpose TPKed on this server and the DM (DM Thann maybe, it was Teneas but can't remember his DM handle) told us he did it and left us dead and we all respawned. I have no issue respawning, I have no issue dying. There were a few others, where I was chastised for strange things that weren't "rule" breaking but a DM decided they didn't like it. Some from Penguin some from this or that. A DM (I would remember the handle if I saw it but it was someone I had never seen before at the time.) Once told me out of the blue "You are leveling too fast" and took some xp away from my character. This was when Evaliir and Bryce were palling about. Though sorry for using you Andros, you are my sweet muffin of deliciousness don't tell anyone. 3) I've had some bad experiences as a dm and I've had some horrible experiences as a player. My only concern about this player housing thing is that the furniture will disappear all the time and you will have to put it back in again over and over and over. So I do enjoy a more uploadable style, I'm not sure how functional that is with EE. 4) As for the seven day rule, it's a bit annoying having to try and remember when you did stuff. I know some who write it down in their journals with psychotic OCD accuracy. And some like me who just go.. well, I think it was a long time. Or rely on my traveling peeps to remember. Mostly I end up doing stuff every two weeks to be safe. If a script can help rock on, I have a feeling that script is going to be a bit arsey and have issues. But if it works good.. cool beans. 5) Some players from guilds have flat out told me they won't be back because of how they their guild was treated and they will probably be back if they aren't back already. 6) The most concerning thing that I have been told from a number of players since coming back is DMs using their characters in plots or giving OOC information about their character with no conversation from that DM before doing it. As a DM I have always asked a player before using their character in one of my plots to make sure it wouldn't be something that they would avoid like the plague or would want to be involved in. I've had only a few peeps say no thanks. I never mind horrible things happening to my character, or consequences for my actions ICly. I don't mean asking a player before they reap IC consequences for their IC actions. I mean using their character in something that didn't originate from their own actions and then acting as if they are being a baby because they don't want to be part of that DM plot. 7) I used to be happy when a DM followed us and started to RP, but that's no longer my instant reaction. Now it's one of trepidation, because I assume my character will get killed, or that I will be chased out of a dungeon without even getting inside it really. So, when a DM showed up to the rescue yesterday, I was very quiet because it's just not been the experience that I've had with DMs that I don't know. But I have been a bit conditioned to live in stranger danger, and to view DMs in a combative way. Which is the opposite of my DM mentality, where you are creating stories with players as it's a more collaborative medium. ((I.E. as the DM you are the host of the party and try to find a way to allow everyone to shine at some point, not try to "win" against the players. Obviously you can't allow them to just "win" all the time either with no effort. etc. )) ((P.S. I ain't got no shame in my game)) If you ever feel mistreated by a DM or the interaction was in any way inappropriate please to reach out to the DM or if that feels uncomfortable please contact at the Player Assistants. As a DM I have had the occasional mistake and yes I have had my knuckles rapped for an interaction with a player. For me was lessons learned and the feedback I found useful in tailoring my approach. Have I made encounter mistakes setting things too hard? Simply, yes. It can be difficult to judge some creatures on the pallette. But conducting a total party kill on purpose no. If you do feel that such was done please contact at least the Player Associates and also include game logs as well if possible.
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Post by simo2003 on Feb 18, 2022 16:40:03 GMT -5
I like these changes overall and in a general sense I get the impression that the DM team is a very different beast with different goals to when I started playing here. So, good stuff!
I'm still non-plussed by the encounter timers. I hear what people are saying about DMs having to police the seven day rule and I absolutely agree that their time is better spent on creating encounters, plots and so on. That said, there's nothing there that addresses quite a fundamental issue that, every time you want to team up with other players, you have to work out where you can and can't go. Nothing kills a group quicker. In fact, I think this encourages people to group with their own crowd - there's no need to try to ICly RP who's done what, because you all already know. The encounter timer doesn't seem to address this, and my concern is that it will actually create a new problem where everyone has to try to guess who's 'ruined' the dungeon.
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Post by DM Maleficent's Kiss on Feb 18, 2022 17:53:55 GMT -5
I like these changes overall and in a general sense I get the impression that the DM team is a very different beast with different goals to when I started playing here. So, good stuff! I'm still non-plussed by the encounter timers. I hear what people are saying about DMs having to police the seven day rule and I absolutely agree that their time is better spent on creating encounters, plots and so on. That said, there's nothing there that addresses quite a fundamental issue that, every time you want to team up with other players, you have to work out where you can and can't go. Nothing kills a group quicker. In fact, I think this encourages people to group with their own crowd - there's no need to try to ICly RP who's done what, because you all already know. The encounter timer doesn't seem to address this, and my concern is that it will actually create a new problem where everyone has to try to guess who's 'ruined' the dungeon. The encounter timers may function a bit differently than originally proposed here. It's true that one of the biggest RP killers is when one person is already saved for the week and it throws the entire group into an ooc... "well what now? Where do we go?" We would like to make this whole experience of visiting dungeons when meeting up to feel more natural, IC, and not have a rule in place directly working against potential RP. An example of what this may look like going forward... Player A visits a goblin dungeon, clears it and then leaves. He walks back in hours later to find no goblins left. Player B likewise does the same. Player A and B meet up and visit the dungeon again. Still no gobos in sight. Player A and B meet up with player C who has NOT visited the goblin dungeon. They venture there together and the goblins have returned. There will likely be some caveats and general balance changes to this and the world in general before this but thats the simplified version.
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Post by deadbeatbert on Feb 18, 2022 21:10:31 GMT -5
Bert, Hawk - I simply gave Jortek the history of my time on FRC as he asked for it. If I gave specifics I would be dragging former DMs, current Dms and current players through mud. I don't want to do that. It wasn't the point of the post, it was to show Jortek that times were rough and the culture of the DM team is very different (Autocratic) that does not, for the most part, concern themselves with the player base's opinion. This has not changed, and nor will it. While trying to respond, Jorteck asked you to provide specific context for statements you made and to which you recalled attention. It looks like you then proceeded to throw plenty of mud without providing specifics. The views and feelings of players are given quite a lot of attention by the DM Team. This thread and others are examples of this, along with countless hours reading the forum, talking with players in game, discussing problems and solutions, and the list goes on. DM's are players as well and have friends in game. We receive a lot of input. There's rarely consensus among player perspectives and at the end of the day someone has to be the decision maker. The DM's are also tasked with maintaining the atmosphere, quality, and vision of the server as they try to find the best way forward. This is pretty standard for NWN communities. While officially the DM team hasn't been out to get me, events reported to Pithirendar showed, with screen shot and log evidence, that groups were indeed being targeted frequently for TPKs. Whether it aligns with policy or not does not mean it didn't happen. You should also know of at least four DMs who personally TPKed me when out travelling alone as screenshots were sent to the team from my old FRC account before *redacted* intentionally borked it in spite of what you say Justicar said. DM Pithirendar was pretty diligent responding to her inbox and reporting problems. I don't see anything from her about this. Your old forum account was locked by Justicar because of your behavior, not because of a TPK report. Locking the account doesn't prevent any recipient from viewing PM's previously sent by the account or remove posts from the forum. If you're saying that you reported these things to Pithrendar from your old account, I don't think this is the case. Your previous account looks to have been locked by Justicar around the end of 2012 while Pithirendar joined the FRC PA Team in 2014 and subsequently joined the EDM and DM Teams. I've also gone through my inbox and can't find any reports from you about this on either account. Perhaps you sent it to another DM or it was sent by someone else. Regarding my characters, you refused all of my bic files personally. I remade Gideon, who is now 9 levels past where he was, then Johannes is now 4 levels past where he was. I couldn't play Tiberius with my mates as they were all level 18-20 so I just killed him off and Shamoke is now 22 levels beyond where my other guy was. Why was I made to restart? Only you and Justicar know I suspect. I caught Justicar in the lie, proved it with evidence and the end results were clear. It is what it is. Given your response I think it's been so long you probably don't even remember stonewalling me and it's redundant to offer it now. I've checked both my inbox and my FRC email and I can't find a request from you to restore your characters. It's possible we had a conversation in game that I don't remember. I did find this though, shared by DM Syds at the time: [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Apr 15 17:46:29] DM Syd : [Tell] I've noticed a ton of new faces recently. Can we look forward to a general return of long gone players? [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Apr 15 17:48:00] DM Syd : [Tell] A few of us are really hopeful of such a thing [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Apr 15 17:48:08] Reece Dai Gawain: [Tell] A bunch of us are back. I put in an app to Extropy to get Tiberius back. Simo, Nettie, Me, vcb, a couple of others and I brought two new players too... working on a third [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Apr 15 17:48:34] DM Syd : [Tell] Glad to have you guys all back. [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Apr 15 17:48:42] DM Syd : [Tell] Everyone is DM Extropy began providing lost vault bic restores in 2013 and I don't remember him turning anyone down. After all of that upheaval things were pretty smooth and for the last three years it has been smooth. I even got Gideon Epic, and playing him since 2007? I earned that *chickenwing*! So yes, things were good all the way up until that time last year where it clearly wasn't. You never replied, but you were copied in on that pm chain too, mate. I know with 100% certainty I wasn't the only player involved in those circumstances and every interaction was when I was solo. Was my no contact request ever honoured? You're talking about your conflict with EDM Ruin. Ruin joined the community after our EE conversion and wasn't around during your conflict with Justicar. Ruin wasn't part of any DM Team culture out to get you. This was an individual conflict between the two of you that you both hashed out in the PM. There was no mention of a TPK or other players being bothered. The only request you made was that Ruin avoid you player side in the future. Ruin voluntarily agreed to it and disclosed all of their characters to you. Ruin was also open about their player identity in general. It seemed to me that you two settled things between yourselves. In closing: Painting the DM team as neutral organisation without personal agendas may be a noble idea, but isn't how reality works. There is your version of the DM team, the DM's versions, mine and every other player's. Somewhere in that spider's web is the truth, but it's nebulous and not the version you just posted, mate. Your HR reply really wasn't needed. Defending the honour of the DM team wasn't something you needed to do because it was just an honest recollection of past events now only slightly related to the topic. In fact, that's one of the things in the list mentioned by more than one player. Players are not employees. FRC is not a business and it's supposed to be a place to enjoy and love roleplaying in a comfortable and cool environment. But some people have left because of it and some of those still here are not loving it right now. They want to help make it better, but won't say anything because they think that A/ They won't be listened to. And B/ Speaking out about things will only get them more trouble down the line. Given the PMs I have received, some of these issues clearly still exist and players want change. Looks like I'm the voice again, I know where that can lead and I'm prepared for everything that comes along with that. Cheers, B Folks are of course free to talk with and confide in whomever they like, especially their friends. However, you are not a Player Advocate on FRC. Our DM's keep an open door to receive player concerns. If anyone is uncomfortable approaching a DM with a concern our Player Advocate Team is available to help and will represent your concern anonymously if desired. Players and DM's disagree all the time and there's no harm done. DM's disagree with DM's as well. There is no problem having a different opinion, question, or having a concern. We welcome feedback. Just be respectful and honest, like you'd want to be treated. In contrast, hostile, ugly, or dishonest communication of course presents problems that we'll have to address. FRC is not a business, we can agree. It's been a labor of love. The DM Team are not employees and no one on FRC staff has made a cent off of it. Donations have been offered and were politely declined. All of FRC's contributors are volunteers who have given time and effort to support a hobby they love and share it with our players.
We're here to have fun and enjoy a hobby together. I think you're taking these things too seriously. You're also not owning up to your own behavior and the role it's played in these conflicts. While you have been welcome to play on FRC all these years, you should have taken it as a warning when Justicar locked your old forum account. The DM Team is deciding to give you another warning now. If you continue to throw mud or continue to be spiteful, hostile, or passive aggressive, you will wear out your welcome. Then it will be adios. It doesn't have to be this way. Relax, chill, and have fun. Good folks are working hard to bring more fun to FRC. Warning taken. Please, however take into account the current, ongoing, complaint made to MK regarding DM benevolence and your opinion of their behaviour. As you took much of what I said out of context and going by your own memory I am no longer taking part on the forums for anything regarding bug reports and role play. Cheers, B Edit: I too am only here to relax and enjoy myself. Unfortunately that hasn’t been and isn’t the case right now. That said, I am having a great time in general and look forward to seeing the evolution of the server under Jortek and all of the build team!
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Post by DM Sauron on Feb 19, 2022 0:57:50 GMT -5
I like what they have on other server, but maybe there is room to improve it.
To put it simply, the dungeon becomes more populated and with better loot the more time that has passed after clearing it. Still, it always has a minimum spawn, with the least weakest foes and the worst and least loot available. Players can return as many times as they want during the day, but the entire ride is more rewarding and probably fun if some time passes between visits.
Of course this is treated globally, where the dungeon population and loot potential are affected by every player/PC that enters and clears the areas until reset. Then, their dungeons are not like FRC's dungeons (ours are generally more crafted and overall more complex, I like to think).
Maybe if there was a way for the quality in dungeon population and loot drops to start with the minimum following a reset, until they reach an undisclosed maximum (which could be adjusted every now and then so that no one discovers when is the best time to go).
As for daring to go after the max spawn, with the strongest most numerous foes and best loot drops, parties of the intended level range would probably be needed.
Maybe, just maybe something to consider for the future.
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Post by Southpaw on Feb 19, 2022 8:24:08 GMT -5
I like what they have on other server, but maybe there is room to improve it.
To put it simply, the dungeon becomes more populated and with better loot the more time that has passed after clearing it. Still, it always has a minimum spawn, with the least weakest foes and the worst and least loot available. Players can return as many times as they want during the day, but the entire ride is more rewarding and probably fun if some time passes between visits.
Of course this is treated globally, where the dungeon population and loot potential are affected by every player/PC that enters and clears the areas until reset. Then, their dungeons are not like FRC's dungeons (ours are generally more crafted and overall more complex, I like to think).
Maybe if there was a way for the quality in dungeon population and loot drops to start with the minimum following a reset, until they reach an undisclosed maximum (which could be adjusted every now and then so that no one discovers when is the best time to go).
As for daring to go after the max spawn, with the strongest most numerous foes and best loot drops, parties of the intended level range would probably be needed.
Maybe, just maybe something to consider for the future.
Prisoners Of The Mist does this. Their server is explosively popular, I saw their player count at 120 in the last week or so at one point, and not everyone even loves gothic horror, a lot of people just love the way the game works there. This system contributes to a sense that actions have consequences that affect potentially everyone, and contributes in a small way to the overall role play environment therefore. It can be a little bit of a pain to go to a dungeon someone just did, but if you only have to wait for a short time to go back, and you're not limited in how many times you can go in a day or week, the overall situation is a lot of fun. And the randomness of not knowing how hard it's going to be until you get there makes you pay attention and keeps the dungeon feeling like more of a fresh experience. Overall, I'd give this idea an A+.
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Post by DM Flash on Feb 19, 2022 9:13:42 GMT -5
They have other XP mechanisms in place that work in tandem with the dungeon design. Players cannot see their XP at all, and XP gains just say "You gained XP" without quantifying how much. They also have a throttle on how much XP you can gain in a given period and an RP message that triggers in your combat log when you rest that lets you know where you stand on the throttle.
Example: You feel great and the world awaits, You are satisfied with your days work, You have worked hard and should take a break, You have overexerted yourself and need to rest and recover. I can only guesstimate that equates to something like +1xp to creature kill, normal creature kill xp, -1xp to creature kill, 0xp for creature kill depending on how fast the player obtains XP.
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Post by iangallowglas on Feb 19, 2022 9:27:54 GMT -5
They have other XP mechanisms in place that work in tandem with the dungeon design. Players cannot see their XP at all, and XP gains just say "You gained XP" without quantifying how much. They also have a throttle on how much XP you can gain in a given period and an RP message that triggers in your combat log when you rest that lets you know where you stand on the throttle. Example: You feel great and the world awaits, You are satisfied with your days work, You have worked hard and should take a break, You have overexerted yourself and need to rest and recover. I can only guesstimate that equates to something like +1xp to creature kill, normal creature kill xp, -1xp to creature kill, 0xp for creature kill depending on how fast the player obtains XP. Honestly, I hate this. Annd while i don't play as often as I used to, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't play here again if this was implemented.
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