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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Dec 8, 2021 23:40:50 GMT -5
I think these changes sound great. As a former DM for FRC I can only imagine the relief of not having to enforce the 7 day rule. Very wise choice. I like what I see on the player housing ideas/system as well. The new starting characters system looks sweet as well, I like the presentation of it. The team has really delivered or plans to deliver long awaited and requested things, and are working on current script failures. The bank vaults were a big win, and the subdual system is also nice. I really love the writing/art system as well. Many of these features are very rewarding when you play the kind of character that I do and it is much appreciated.
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Dec 12, 2021 14:13:11 GMT -5
Two questions...
How extensive is the background selector? Will the crew be able to add more diverse backgrounds if the ones available don't suit a particular concept?
Will the 7 day timer only apply to dungeons and certain "very off the road" areas (i.e. like the bugbear area) or will it apply to even "immediately off the road" areas as well?
EDIT: Third question...
What's this going to all mean for legacy characters or "older" characters who've been around for years when the starting area is going to be changed to a large degree? I know this is a nebulous question, but inquiring minds want to know.
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Post by DM Flash on Dec 13, 2021 11:55:12 GMT -5
Heya SCJ,
The background idea was planned to start and evolve as follows; I think the Custom Background will be used by PCs who don't otherwise fit the list. I'm sure over time we could add to the list for common requests:
"While we will be offering a fixed list of options as backgrounds, their primary intent is to help newer players into the module rather than funnelling characters into a forced stereotype. There will always be an option to choose a custom background if there isn’t one that fits your character."
For the encounter script I could be mistaken on this, but I believe it was intended to be implemented based on the "encounters" your PC triggers so both indoor/outdoor encounters would be addressed, but we're looking at going back to the drawing board since timezones was mentioned as a consideration.
I don't believe any existing PCs would be impacted by the new Character Creation since they already have their Adventuring Charters.
Hope that helps! 🙂
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Dec 13, 2021 11:58:15 GMT -5
Heya SCJ, The background idea was planned to start and evolve as follows; I think the Custom Background will be used by PCs who don't otherwise fit the list. I'm sure over time we could add to the list for common requests: "While we will be offering a fixed list of options as backgrounds, their primary intent is to help newer players into the module rather than funnelling characters into a forced stereotype. There will always be an option to choose a custom background if there isn’t one that fits your character." For the encounter script I could be mistaken on this, but I believe it was intended to be implemented based on the "encounters" your PC triggers so both indoor/outdoor encounters would be addressed, but we're looking at going back to the drawing board since timezones was mentioned as a consideration. I don't believe any existing PCs would be impacted by the new Character Creation since they already have their Adventuring Charters. Hope that helps! 🙂 Reading comprehension helps! Yes, that clears that up. Thanks!
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Post by sightblinder on Dec 14, 2021 9:13:46 GMT -5
For the encounter script I could be mistaken on this, but I believe it was intended to be implemented based on the "encounters" your PC triggers so both indoor/outdoor encounters would be addressed, but we're looking at going back to the drawing board since timezones was mentioned as a consideration. FWIW, I think having the script work on -any- encounters server wide would be a bad idea. I can envision characters wandering the roads between towns, completely alone. It makes for a pretty dull server. I can't speak for anyone else, but if my options come down to standing around GG discussing the weather, or walking between GG and Shally killing goblins I know which one I'd pick. If you take away one of those options and all I am left with is discussing the weather or logging off, well... Just my two coppers.
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Post by DM Jorteck on Dec 14, 2021 10:33:15 GMT -5
For the encounter script I could be mistaken on this, but I believe it was intended to be implemented based on the "encounters" your PC triggers so both indoor/outdoor encounters would be addressed, but we're looking at going back to the drawing board since timezones was mentioned as a consideration. FWIW, I think having the script work on -any- encounters server wide would be a bad idea. I can envision characters wandering the roads between towns, completely alone. It makes for a pretty dull server. I can't speak for anyone else, but if my options come down to standing around GG discussing the weather, or walking between GG and Shally killing goblins I know which one I'd pick. If you take away one of those options and all I am left with is discussing the weather or logging off, well... Just my two coppers. I think there's still confusion on the timers - they are not server wide, they are per player. But the timers would all reset at the same time for everyone. It should actually be far better for the "empty" road syndrome, as the areas can reset immediately rather than with a delay.
E.g. let's say the server timer reset is set to 9PM Thursday night: Player 1 completes Icingdwell on Friday night. They can access the dungeon again after 9PM Thursday in the next week. Player 2 enters Icingdwell on Saturday night. The dungeon still spawns normally as Player 2 has not completed the dungeon this week. They can access the dungeon again after 9PM Thursday like Player 1. Player 3 joins in a party with Player 1 + 2, and enters Icingdwell on Sunday night. The dungeon does not spawn as Player 1 and Player 2 are in their party, and they have played it already this week.
Specifically on road areas - yes this means that loot containers will spawn only once per week, and a similar thing for encounters along the road. The encounter timer will only be set if you kill a creature from it.
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Post by Animayhem on Dec 14, 2021 10:35:58 GMT -5
Will this effect quest givers? Nothing is more frustrating then a group planning a dungeon, accepting the quest and find out someone is already there or it was just done meaning no enocuonters,no xp or loot.
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Post by lucesi on Dec 14, 2021 12:29:08 GMT -5
I think there's still confusion on the timers - they are not server wide, they are per player. But the timers would all reset at the same time for everyone. It should actually be far better for the "empty" road syndrome, as the areas can reset immediately rather than with a delay.
E.g. let's say the server timer reset is set to 9PM Thursday night: Player 1 completes Icingdwell on Friday night. They can access the dungeon again after 9PM Thursday in the next week. Player 2 enters Icingdwell on Saturday night. The dungeon still spawns normally as Player 2 has not completed the dungeon this week. They can access the dungeon again after 9PM Thursday like Player 1. Player 3 joins in a party with Player 1 + 2, and enters Icingdwell on Sunday night. The dungeon does not spawn as Player 1 and Player 2 are in their party, and they have played it already this week.
Specifically on road areas - yes this means that loot containers will spawn only once per week, and a similar thing for encounters along the road. The encounter timer will only be set if you kill a creature from it. So in this specific example would player 3 be able to adventure in Icingdwell later in the week as they did not spawn or kill any encounters when they entered and the encounter timer was not set? Or would they have to wait until the following Sunday for any spawns to be encountered?
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Post by sightblinder on Dec 14, 2021 12:31:11 GMT -5
Specifically on road areas - yes this means that loot containers will spawn only once per week, and a similar thing for encounters along the road. The encounter timer will only be set if you kill a creature from it. This part is the only thing I feel should be changed. Unless, the purpose of the script is to keep people from playing as often, or creating multiple characters so they actually have something to do once they’ve finished doing the dungeons and any areas in between they are capable of for the week.
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Post by malclave on Dec 14, 2021 16:24:52 GMT -5
Specifically on road areas - yes this means that loot containers will spawn only once per week, and a similar thing for encounters along the road. The encounter timer will only be set if you kill a creature from it. Road encounters should be treated differently IMO. They do more than just give some xp and gp; they reinforce the impression that it's a world out there. Leave the timer on loot containers and encounters associated with camps, but there should almost always be a chance of wilderness encounters.
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Post by DM Jorteck on Dec 14, 2021 20:07:46 GMT -5
I think there's still confusion on the timers - they are not server wide, they are per player. But the timers would all reset at the same time for everyone. It should actually be far better for the "empty" road syndrome, as the areas can reset immediately rather than with a delay.
E.g. let's say the server timer reset is set to 9PM Thursday night: Player 1 completes Icingdwell on Friday night. They can access the dungeon again after 9PM Thursday in the next week. Player 2 enters Icingdwell on Saturday night. The dungeon still spawns normally as Player 2 has not completed the dungeon this week. They can access the dungeon again after 9PM Thursday like Player 1. Player 3 joins in a party with Player 1 + 2, and enters Icingdwell on Sunday night. The dungeon does not spawn as Player 1 and Player 2 are in their party, and they have played it already this week.
Specifically on road areas - yes this means that loot containers will spawn only once per week, and a similar thing for encounters along the road. The encounter timer will only be set if you kill a creature from it. So in this specific example would player 3 be able to adventure in Icingdwell later in the week as they did not spawn or kill any encounters when they entered and the encounter timer was not set? Or would they have to wait until the following Sunday for any spawns to be encountered? Correct - the timers are only set if player 3, or a member of their party kills a creature from the encounter.
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Post by DM Jorteck on Dec 14, 2021 20:52:38 GMT -5
Specifically on road areas - yes this means that loot containers will spawn only once per week, and a similar thing for encounters along the road. The encounter timer will only be set if you kill a creature from it. This part is the only thing I feel should be changed. Unless, the purpose of the script is to keep people from playing as often, or creating multiple characters so they actually have something to do once they’ve finished doing the dungeons and any areas in between they are capable of for the week. Specifically on road areas - yes this means that loot containers will spawn only once per week, and a similar thing for encounters along the road. The encounter timer will only be set if you kill a creature from it. Road encounters should be treated differently IMO. They do more than just give some xp and gp; they reinforce the impression that it's a world out there. Leave the timer on loot containers and encounters associated with camps, but there should almost always be a chance of wilderness encounters. We specifically want to drive people to explore the module more, rather than running the same circle of roads that offer the most efficient loot containers or encounter spawns. If you slaughter a bandit camp along a road, it's going to take some time before they are set up again for the next ambush. The system already supports configuring different reset times for different encounters as we need it for the starter areas. We're also aware that for some level ranges, there's not enough content for this and it is likely that we will lower the timer for specific cases we see becoming a problem. I forgot to mention as it was already released in the last server update - there is now a random encounter system available to builders that should also help with breathing life into the wilderness encounters. These are applied every reset. One day it might be some goblins, another it might be bandits, or it could be a travelling merchant with unique items.
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Post by sightblinder on Dec 15, 2021 9:12:38 GMT -5
We specifically want to drive people to explore the module more, rather than running the same circle of roads that offer the most efficient loot containers or encounter spawns. If you slaughter a bandit camp along a road, it's going to take some time before they are set up again for the next ambush. The system already supports configuring different reset times for different encounters as we need it for the starter areas. We're also aware that for some level ranges, there's not enough content for this and it is likely that we will lower the timer for specific cases we see becoming a problem. I forgot to mention as it was already released in the last server update - there is now a random encounter system available to builders that should also help with breathing life into the wilderness encounters. These are applied every reset. One day it might be some goblins, another it might be bandits, or it could be a travelling merchant with unique items. Well... I can't speak for anyone but myself, but when I "run the same circle of roads" it isn't for the most efficient loot containers or encounter spawns". It's because I *hate* dying. I loathe it. And through trial and error I've discovered I can travel those routes without dying, unless I'm reckless about it. But y'know, I'll give it the old college try. I trust the build team enough that I think if something isn't working they'll change it, and I *could* be wrong about my fears, however unlikely that may be.
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Post by DOT on Dec 16, 2021 7:55:51 GMT -5
deadbeatbertDM JorteckRegarding the Shallybrook theatre hall, when I built the exterior it was just intended as a filler/placeholder for players to consider using if they ever got a group together for its use (or if the pc purchased the exterior component and made it a home with a public use component). Option is always there . Some pending updates for Shallybrook -minor edits on exterior -inn interior revamp (with fest hall/“theatre” style main room where the bar and food are… because halflings) -hin fist Monastary interior -combine interiors to reduce area count -mystras grove exterior update Something to consider with the past edits and updates to the town, it is a town certainly based on community. If a player character opens up home and shop there, there should be a public component to it. I understand that two player buildings did get placed into the town when I was not overseeing it, one with a large footprint in a place intended for a later item with the public shallyupdate (happens to be the “best” 🤷🏻♂️ location) and another with no public component. Can’t really be changed now since both areas are actively used… which isn’t all bad in my opinion since both fit the aesthetic of the town nicely (modifications to fence size from human size to hin size to control land grab have been made, them sheep are going to graze goshdarnit), also emphasis on the public component and not the private component is being included in the minor exterior update with signage etc) - ex. The Sugar Smith displays this correctly, the Three Dragons Villa would make a greater reference to the public library portion at a later point on public road signage). So just to summarize my opinion, come to the town of community to be part of the community. I am glad that at least three different folks chose it as their base of operations given that a player is only permitted to have one of those per player 💕. If you as a player want to affect it, the option is certainly there with dm aid and player efforts.
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Post by lovedbyyendis on Jan 3, 2022 15:10:12 GMT -5
I was away for quite some time due to a ridiculous 2021, but having come back, I'm liking most of the changes I've seen. Great job.
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Post by EDM Entori on Jan 4, 2022 1:30:33 GMT -5
I’ve been back recently and I enjoy a lot of the changes! Especially to books!
I have a concern regarding the implementation of the 7day rule hard code.
I’m currently doing this on a phone so please bear with my formatting:
Quoted from earlier in the thread
“ For the encounter script I could be mistaken on this, but I believe it was intended to be implemented based on the "encounters" your PC triggers so both indoor/outdoor encounters would be addressed, but we're looking at going back to the drawing board since timezones was mentioned as a consideration.“
——-
So my concern is wilderness areas: roadways, forests, and other “exploration” areas. They’ve never been considered part of the 7 day rule, as far as I’ve known it. Walking through the hullack or tun or other transitional areas. Have always spawned critters. If it wasn’t an accessible duengon IE - bramblewood gnolls or goblins Warren’s. There was no problem with culling the gnolls seen from the roadway and taking their stuff.
By my reading of it. If my PC walks from eveningstar to skull craig, on Friday - he will no longer spawn loot or monsters as he moves from that area again on Saturday- but he may be moving through that area for entirely different reasons.
Maybe if it’s just me - but at lower levels when I get stuck without coin; I walk roadways. Fairly low risk and reward but it would provide enough to carvan or gain some healing supplies if the fates have been unfortunate.
So I would very much like to see these scripts be “off the beaten path” type areas - such as specific duengons in areas. IE Zhents keep not the stone lands. Goblin caves in the hullack but not the exterior, the drow fortress but not the transitional under dark.
By my reading of it as well; if they work as I think they are proposed - party x walks through the storm horns to icingdwell and they walk back out. They will be unchallenged the whole way back. Versus I sort of liked that extra challenge and if they walk that way the next 7 days there will be no encounters. - let me know if this is all accurate. I’ve read the thread - I like the freeing up of dm resources. It’s one less thing to police, I’d just not want to see it globally active. (I’d also like to see the 7 days culled down to 5 to mirror the workweek - some of us are older and have kids/weekends but that’s a whole kettle of fish there)
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Post by deadbeatbert on Jan 5, 2022 21:47:41 GMT -5
DM Jorteck Thanks for replying. Apologies for the long wait, I was on holiday with my family with no laptop. You asked for specifics on DM harassment, but I think it's better to give you a general personal opinion in context of the history of FRC and a small player base of which I am a part of. in years gone by there was a culture of DMs punishing specific groups of players weekly because they said something that did not toe the line or they simply didn't like the group. They were above the rules of the server and were very much a law unto themselves. This combined with other DM culture aspects lead to a very specific us vs them realm with the DM team and about 15 players. Justicar's word was absolute. Anyone who questioned this ideal were banned from the forum or tpked on a regular basis to keep their characters less powerful. This is why the Cormyr and Dalelands server among others was created. Some of us left, some stayed, some enjoy both servers. I am one of the latter. Both servers have great things to offer players but in very different ways and means. For those of us from that group that stayed or played on both there was a definite grudge and we would still be tpked regularly or be 'fined' through other measures, but we endured because other friends were (and some still are) here. I can't play in large groups because of a sensory issue related to fibromyalgia that leaves me lost in a wall of text I can't decipher quickly enough to stay up with events. That's why you don't see my characters turn up for the large events. Sometimes I'll turn up before and offer healing kits, potions etc to keep my character's friends as safe as I can. This was received differently by some DMs who are no longer DMing. When the server vault was lost I was not allowed any of my previous characters back and so while all of my friends, including my wife, got their characters back I had to start from scratch on four characters. For speaking out in defence of my friends I am used to being at the bottom of the FRC totem pole. I am used to not having any DM items on any of my characters. Pavlov has me trained well, as this was the norm for over a decade, not weeks or months. I am, however, doing my best to evolve and become more trusting as the DM team evolves as well. DM Maleficent's Kiss has played a massive part in changing my opinion in this respect and should be endowed with the admiration of every player and DM alike for her efforts in this regard. Another aspect is that the rules in place reflect punishing the entire community for the actions of one or two. Sometimes that is a good thing. Sometimes it is not. So why did I stay? Firstly to prove a point that nothing the DMs doled out could deter me, but primarily I have good friends here. Real people I have visited, stayed with and forged life long friendships with. People who have stayed at my house repeatedly and even visited Disney with. I hope that helps you to understand the perspective of myself, and other players who are used to being guilty of playing and trying to help make changes for the betterment of the community as a whole, not for the few. Onto your reply. It is natural to be defensive. I understand how much time and effort has to be put into these servers and that all that you seem to get for the effort is complaints. I've been running servers, DM and more for 18 years on NWN, so in this respect I know exactly how you feel. I also know from this experience and managing coders/scripters/engineers that not all of us are social butterflies and we all have opinions on operation that we believe is the right and true course. But it's not always the case needs to be discussed fully. It's also my real life job to devils advocate situations and make sure that they have been scoured and scanned properly so that no one gets a $50,000 to $50,000,000 fine from the FCC or FAA. It's in my nature to question. It does not mean I think the ideas or plans are bad. Forums are instrumental in breaking traditional lines of communication. You can't tell my tone or proper inferences, there is no body language and most importantly there is no eye contact. I can only assure you that I want the best for FRC, its DM team and more importantly its player base. There is a lot here that is great and I look forward to seeing what is done. Sure, I have reservations that a server wide 7 day rule script is going to fundamentally change how players play, especially for builds that depend on groups which aren't always available. The script will be introduced regardless and figured out after the fact. Not the way i would do it, but it is a change being made in the earnest benefit of the DMs. This correlates to my comment above about punishing the community for the actions of the few. It may save DMs a bit of hassle, but it will create multiple hassles for the entire community, especially when it comes to forming parties where a few hours of leeway is no longer going to exist. Seven days and doing the same dungeon on a Sunday when you can log in no longer means seven days; it now means seven days to the second. Some players in the UK won't be able to wait the three hours, seven minutes and four seconds for a timer to click over in the US and roleplay will suffer for it. Sunday dungeon fun will become Monday or Tuesday catch up or skipped until the next Sunday as you couldn't stay up late that night because of that early Monday shift and instead of there being flexibility to play within a guideline we're now all forced into one or three people's idea of gaming. Real life doesn't work that way, especially for those of us with unusual jobs and families. At least you'll be occasionally missing out on fun groups with your mates, too, I suppose. But it's for the greater good of the community, so you won't mind not playing at all or letting your mates go without you. What I really wanted to discuss was my opinion/questions on rules and how I don't think you, like Flash, actually read or absorbed anything I actually said. So I return to ambiguity in the rules. Quote the Jortek: On ERP and torture RP, we discourage it as it can become a massive source of drama for the players involved (and haunts the DM team when posted to the wrong channel :S). As long as you follow all the other rules around the subject, it is allowed.My comment on the ERP rule isn't about ERP; it's how it is "discouraged". Discouraged means nothing in a rule and it needs to be fixed. You may as well be telling the player base that what they are doing is dirty and unwanted, but you have no choice but to accept it's stain upon an otherwise perfect society. Is ERP allowed? The rules say yes and only in tells, so leave it at that. If you, as a DM team, do not want any ERP? Great. Everyone will be on the same, clearly defined page. Players can leave and go elsewhere to enjoy their romantic liaisons where once or twice a year no FRC DM can accidentally receive an emote about Dave's Orc slathering honey on to Melissa's Halfling's bottom or whatever ; ) Jokes aside, such verbiage opens avenues for DMs to have differing values on rules and opens potential ooc punishments I listed above which I shall now demonstrate with Rule 9 paragraph 10: "Gold Loaning or item gifting" is loaning excessive amounts of gold or items of value to other player characters and is considered a form of twinking. Loaning another character some gold or assisting them in purchasing an item from a shop is fine so long as the amount is not excessive - This should be in assistance to the player, not paying for the entire thing outright. As a point of reference pick pocketing will return any item or amount over 500 gold. Do not loan thousands upon thousands of gold to other characters, the same goes for expensive items as gifts. Quote the Jortek: The rules were already updated, specifically on loans.
Except you didn't read what I said or asked. Even recently amended it is horrifically nebulous. To one DM it could mean 500gp is the absolute limit as that's the pick pocket limit. To another it could mean 50,000gp because it says "Do not loan thousands upon thousands of gold to other characters. To the same DM it could mean 50,000gp across the board for Peter and 500gp across the board for me because I walked away from their DM quest last week. There has to be a strong line in the sand that players and DMs alike can understand clearly and easily. Then there are the other questions raised and instead of assuming you're getting the inference I'll lay them out plainly: Does it, in turn, mean that characters can no longer refuse a share as you are now gifting that share of loot to other players? What is an expensive gift? How expensive is expensive? Can I only offer assistance in the form of my appraise skill and 500gp? Can we no longer pool money to buy the appraiser in the group appraise gear because it might be considered expensive? So many questions, so few answers. I trust you see my point now. Silent Group Syndrome - Quote the Jortek: It really isn't - for anyone not in the discord call (players + DMs trying to make encounters more fun for you), it makes them feel like they are RPing against a brick wall. So the choice is to either force everyone who plays with you to jump on voice, or just don't play with them. It's usually the latter and it forces cliques to be formed because of it.Friends in voice chat discussing their week or a child's flute recital is neither any of the DM's business nor a brick wall to roleplay. If players in voice chat roleplay at all times and follow rule 3 how could it ever be this brick wall? Rule 3. Do your best to remain In Character at all times - Try to act as though you are playing the role of a character in a book or movie. You (through your character), now live the life of a person in a high fantasy setting. Please use language consistent with a fantasy role-playing environment and classical literature. Realism in all (or at least most) things is encouraged and rewarded on FRC. Consistent out-of-character behavior will be addressed by Staff. No other server I have played on has this rule. Not one. Again we get the "Discouragement" phrase. This time it is hidden on the discord page and not even on the official Rules page and should be changed to reflect the FRC team's evolution and growth in their trust of the community. Sure, remind players that they are expected to heed rule 3 at all times, but don't demean the player base and treat us like children by being so untrusting that no one can have a nice chat as they play a GAME. I return full circle, and this is something every DM needs to read: It's clear that while on the surface a post has been answered, but upon further review it clearly hasn't. Usually that's no big deal, we all see it at work when someone doesn't want to hear or is too busy scripting to read a sincere post. We have been promised a culture shift. We need you to provide the structure of that culture shift and not just keep on keeping on. I am holding myself to task to review and rebuild my existing Pavlovian state, but the only person I am only really seeing any effort from is Maleficent. Yes there is a poll, that's a great start but after that it was back to not actually absorbing what I was asking. Please, PLEASE pay proper attention to posts and questions. If there is something you cannot answer because it's not your area? Fine, that's completely understandable. What is unacceptable is to not make sure someone in the know does look and answer as openly and honestly as possible. I'm tired of DMs copy pasting answers from the rules page and leaving me to go about my business. It does none of us any good. I'm not talking out of my arse, I've done this for nigh on two decades in NWN and in my career. Successfully. It hurts my head to see the same mistakes being made by the same team contrary to what has been said. More importantly the question in the quote from anonymous was ignored. I quoted them because they want to know but do not feel confident that they will be answered. To prove them wrong I'll rephrase it in a simple yes or no answer question: Do you want to bring old players back or is the new policy to only look forward to bringing in players new to FRC? There's no need to retread the decades old party line or re-explaining the same point of view of brick walls that don't exist in any other NWN community. If you don't mind potential for dm loop holes and not answering the rules questions I have raised and asked, just say so and we'll leave it there. A critical ending, indeed, but it's honest and built on the foundation that I believe that the tough questions that would get players banned before can now be answered honestly and truthfully; if not by you, then by someone else who can step up to that plate. Again, no hard feelings, no anger or resentment, just open book questioning. Cheers and apologies again for the delay in reply.
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Post by DM Jorteck on Jan 7, 2022 9:23:15 GMT -5
You asked for specifics on DM harassment, but I think it's better to give you a general personal opinion in context of the history of FRC and a small player base of which I am a part of. in years gone by there was a culture of DMs punishing specific groups of players weekly because they said something that did not toe the line or they simply didn't like the group. They were above the rules of the server and were very much a law unto themselves. This combined with other DM culture aspects lead to a very specific us vs them realm with the DM team and about 15 players. Justicar's word was absolute. Anyone who questioned this ideal were banned from the forum or tpked on a regular basis to keep their characters less powerful. This is why the Cormyr and Dalelands server among others was created. Some of us left, some stayed, some enjoy both servers. I am one of the latter. Both servers have great things to offer players but in very different ways and means. For those of us from that group that stayed or played on both there was a definite grudge and we would still be tpked regularly or be 'fined' through other measures, but we endured because other friends were (and some still are) here. I can't play in large groups because of a sensory issue related to fibromyalgia that leaves me lost in a wall of text I can't decipher quickly enough to stay up with events. That's why you don't see my characters turn up for the large events. Sometimes I'll turn up before and offer healing kits, potions etc to keep my character's friends as safe as I can. This was received differently by some DMs who are no longer DMing. When the server vault was lost I was not allowed any of my previous characters back and so while all of my friends, including my wife, got their characters back I had to start from scratch on four characters. For speaking out in defence of my friends I am used to being at the bottom of the FRC totem pole. I am used to not having any DM items on any of my characters. Pavlov has me trained well, as this was the norm for over a decade, not weeks or months. I am, however, doing my best to evolve and become more trusting as the DM team evolves as well. DM Maleficent's Kiss has played a massive part in changing my opinion in this respect and should be endowed with the admiration of every player and DM alike for her efforts in this regard. I ask for specific instances and/or names because it's something that we can action as a team. Perhaps that's my engineering mind going into problem-solving mode, but it's very hard for me personally to acknowledge and iterate on general concerns like this as where do you set the benchmark of improvement? Do the problems actually still exist? I can't comment on actions from past members of the team or history prior to last year as I simply wasn't around. Another DM might be able to comment on your broad points. Having said that, I don't think any member of the current DM team is actively trying to make players more miserable. There are a lot of different play styles we have to cater to, and not every DM is suited for every style. Some players like more intrigue and investigation, so we try to challenge them with more puzzles and skill checks. Other players are more combat-focused, so we try to give them more challenging and unique encounters and sometimes we get this balancing wrong. In the case of TPKs, we usually try to resolve it if the character's showed an amount of strategy or effort to defeat them. You'll still have to bite the respawn if you blindly rush at them though - sorry barbarians! Trying to find that balance of making something that's engaging but not too difficult is not easy, as I imagine you know as a DM. At the end of the day though, we want everyone to have fun and if there's something you were not happy about, please reach out to a DM you feel comfortable talking to or a PA if you would like to remain anonymous. Another aspect is that the rules in place reflect punishing the entire community for the actions of one or two. Sometimes that is a good thing. Sometimes it is not. I agree that this is something we need to improve on, and a rules update will likely be a topic in the next transparency report. We want to get player feedback on the specific rules that they tend to feel scared about accidentally breaking, or cause frustrating restrictions. So why did I stay? Firstly to prove a point that nothing the DMs doled out could deter me, but primarily I have good friends here. Real people I have visited, stayed with and forged life long friendships with. People who have stayed at my house repeatedly and even visited Disney with. I hope that helps you to understand the perspective of myself, and other players who are used to being guilty of playing and trying to help make changes for the betterment of the community as a whole, not for the few. Onto your reply. It is natural to be defensive. I understand how much time and effort has to be put into these servers and that all that you seem to get for the effort is complaints. I've been running servers, DM and more for 18 years on NWN, so in this respect I know exactly how you feel. I also know from this experience and managing coders/scripters/engineers that not all of us are social butterflies and we all have opinions on operation that we believe is the right and true course. But it's not always the case needs to be discussed fully. It's also my real life job to devils advocate situations and make sure that they have been scoured and scanned properly so that no one gets a $50,000 to $50,000,000 fine from the FCC or FAA. It's in my nature to question. It does not mean I think the ideas or plans are bad. Forums are instrumental in breaking traditional lines of communication. You can't tell my tone or proper inferences, there is no body language and most importantly there is no eye contact. I can only assure you that I want the best for FRC, its DM team and more importantly its player base. I'm simply trying to keep an open dialogue and provide answers as objectively as I can, not sure I would call that defensive . Which servers were you DMing for? Perhaps there is something we can learn by looking at what they do, or how they interact with their community. There is a lot here that is great and I look forward to seeing what is done. Sure, I have reservations that a server wide 7 day rule script is going to fundamentally change how players play, especially for builds that depend on groups which aren't always available. The script will be introduced regardless and figured out after the fact. Not the way i would do it, but it is a change being made in the earnest benefit of the DMs. This correlates to my comment above about punishing the community for the actions of the few. It may save DMs a bit of hassle, but it will create multiple hassles for the entire community, especially when it comes to forming parties where a few hours of leeway is no longer going to exist. Seven days and doing the same dungeon on a Sunday when you can log in no longer means seven days; it now means seven days to the second. Some players in the UK won't be able to wait the three hours, seven minutes and four seconds for a timer to click over in the US and roleplay will suffer for it. Sunday dungeon fun will become Monday or Tuesday catch up or skipped until the next Sunday as you couldn't stay up late that night because of that early Monday shift and instead of there being flexibility to play within a guideline we're now all forced into one or three people's idea of gaming. Real life doesn't work that way, especially for those of us with unusual jobs and families. At least you'll be occasionally missing out on fun groups with your mates, too, I suppose. But it's for the greater good of the community, so you won't mind not playing at all or letting your mates go without you. What I really wanted to discuss was my opinion/questions on rules and how I don't think you, like Flash, actually read or absorbed anything I actually said. So I return to ambiguity in the rules. Quote the Jortek: On ERP and torture RP, we discourage it as it can become a massive source of drama for the players involved (and haunts the DM team when posted to the wrong channel :S). As long as you follow all the other rules around the subject, it is allowed.My comment on the ERP rule isn't about ERP; it's how it is "discouraged". Discouraged means nothing in a rule and it needs to be fixed. You may as well be telling the player base that what they are doing is dirty and unwanted, but you have no choice but to accept it's stain upon an otherwise perfect society. The rule is "Cybersex and Torture are to be used only with consent from all players involved" - the note after isn't intended to give a label to players who like to partake in ERP, it's simply precautionary from the types of drama we have seen in the past as I mentioned in my last reply. Another way to phrase it would be: "Please take precautions when engaging in this style of roleplay as it can be hard to convey intent through text alone. Please make sure involved parties are 100% comfortable and consenting with this type of roleplay, and keep cybersex in tells. Also make sure that all parties involved are adults according to their respective local laws. Keep these acts in private areas as FRC does have minors playing." Is ERP allowed? The rules say yes and only in tells, so leave it at that. If you, as a DM team, do not want any ERP? Great. Everyone will be on the same, clearly defined page. Players can leave and go elsewhere to enjoy their romantic liaisons where once or twice a year no FRC DM can accidentally receive an emote about Dave's Orc slathering honey on to Melissa's Halfling's bottom or whatever ; ) Jokes aside, such verbiage opens avenues for DMs to have differing values on rules and opens potential ooc punishments I listed above which I shall now demonstrate with Rule 9 paragraph 10: "Gold Loaning or item gifting" is loaning excessive amounts of gold or items of value to other player characters and is considered a form of twinking. Loaning another character some gold or assisting them in purchasing an item from a shop is fine so long as the amount is not excessive - This should be in assistance to the player, not paying for the entire thing outright. As a point of reference pick pocketing will return any item or amount over 500 gold. Do not loan thousands upon thousands of gold to other characters, the same goes for expensive items as gifts. Quote the Jortek: The rules were already updated, specifically on loans.
Except you didn't read what I said or asked. Even recently amended it is horrifically nebulous. To one DM it could mean 500gp is the absolute limit as that's the pick pocket limit. To another it could mean 50,000gp because it says "Do not loan thousands upon thousands of gold to other characters. To the same DM it could mean 50,000gp across the board for Peter and 500gp across the board for me because I walked away from their DM quest last week. There has to be a strong line in the sand that players and DMs alike can understand clearly and easily. Then there are the other questions raised and instead of assuming you're getting the inference I'll lay them out plainly: Does it, in turn, mean that characters can no longer refuse a share as you are now gifting that share of loot to other players? What is an expensive gift? How expensive is expensive? Can I only offer assistance in the form of my appraise skill and 500gp? Can we no longer pool money to buy the appraiser in the group appraise gear because it might be considered expensive? So many questions, so few answers. I trust you see my point now. If you're suggesting that every single rule needs to list every single scenario or case where it applies, I'm sorry that's not it man. There needs to be at least a little bit of common sense. What is an expensive gift? At level 1, healing kits are pretty expensive. At level 20, not so much. It's very much subjective. Giving full plate to a level 3 is massive AC boost for them, giving them a huge advantage over players who didn't get the gift. But offering the last 2,000gp for a level 20 to buy the 100,000 gnomish armor? They could spend 10 minutes to get the extra gold, it's not as bad. Let's say the limit was 1,000gp. Does that mean you can just give 1,000gp to every level character? This would give them a massive advantage over other new players. The spirit of the rule is simply to make progression fair for all characters regardless of the respective player controlling them. If your playing with a regular group? Yes it's probably fine to pool together funds to buy appraise gear. If you're hosting "purchase" parties where you invite low level players and give them all of the trip earnings? We're going to slap that down. Appraisal is as valid as any other profession, and character's should charge for the privilege of getting a better deal. I don't see it falling into the loan rules at all. Let's take a different example. What if Beamdog releases an update that adds an exploit that allows for unlimited attacks in a round. Since it's not explicitly listed in the rules, does that make it okay to exploit? In general we try to be very lenient for people who just follow the spirit of the rules, and less-so with people who try to push the absolute boundaries. Silent Group Syndrome - Quote the Jortek: It really isn't - for anyone not in the discord call (players + DMs trying to make encounters more fun for you), it makes them feel like they are RPing against a brick wall. So the choice is to either force everyone who plays with you to jump on voice, or just don't play with them. It's usually the latter and it forces cliques to be formed because of it.Friends in voice chat discussing their week or a child's flute recital is neither any of the DM's business nor a brick wall to roleplay. If players in voice chat roleplay at all times and follow rule 3 how could it ever be this brick wall? Rule 3. Do your best to remain In Character at all times - Try to act as though you are playing the role of a character in a book or movie. You (through your character), now live the life of a person in a high fantasy setting. Please use language consistent with a fantasy role-playing environment and classical literature. Realism in all (or at least most) things is encouraged and rewarded on FRC. Consistent out-of-character behavior will be addressed by Staff. No other server I have played on has this rule. Not one. Again we get the "Discouragement" phrase. This time it is hidden on the discord page and not even on the official Rules page and should be changed to reflect the FRC team's evolution and growth in their trust of the community. Sure, remind players that they are expected to heed rule 3 at all times, but don't demean the player base and treat us like children by being so untrusting that no one can have a nice chat as they play a GAME. "Friends in voice chat discussing their week or a child's flute recital is neither any of the DM's business nor a brick wall to roleplay." - You're perfectly fine to use Discord for OOC chat, as you said it's none of our business. The rules are specific to IC actions and roleplay. Which part of the rule is demeaning? The reason we like players to use in-game chat is so we as DMs can understand character motivations and develop stories that are fun/interesting for them. And so other players that are not in their immediate friend group have a chance to react to their character. Perhaps one day, small player events could be run over voice as it could be an interesting twist but that would be entirely up to the DM and the players involved. I return full circle, and this is something every DM needs to read: It's clear that while on the surface a post has been answered, but upon further review it clearly hasn't. Usually that's no big deal, we all see it at work when someone doesn't want to hear or is too busy scripting to read a sincere post. We have been promised a culture shift. We need you to provide the structure of that culture shift and not just keep on keeping on. I am holding myself to task to review and rebuild my existing Pavlovian state, but the only person I am only really seeing any effort from is Maleficent. Yes there is a poll, that's a great start but after that it was back to not actually absorbing what I was asking. Please, PLEASE pay proper attention to posts and questions. If there is something you cannot answer because it's not your area? Fine, that's completely understandable. What is unacceptable is to not make sure someone in the know does look and answer as openly and honestly as possible. I'm tired of DMs copy pasting answers from the rules page and leaving me to go about my business. It does none of us any good. I'm not talking out of my arse, I've done this for nigh on two decades in NWN and in my career. Successfully. It hurts my head to see the same mistakes being made by the same team contrary to what has been said. More importantly the question in the quote from anonymous was ignored. I quoted them because they want to know but do not feel confident that they will be answered. To prove them wrong I'll rephrase it in a simple yes or no answer question: Do you want to bring old players back or is the new policy to only look forward to bringing in players new to FRC? If we're ranking them by priority, it would be Current Players > New Players > Ex Players. And pretty much any other server would be the same. Bringing back older players is inherently going to be more difficult than bringing in newer players if it was on mixed terms. There are players who will disagree with everything we do, regardless of who is driving the changes or what the changes are. The new character flow is 100% focused on new players, as it's something that has been neglected for a very long time. Not because we want to give a middle-finger to older players, but because it hasn't be changed in over 10 years. It's a really dated design for something that is supposed to be a first impression when you enter the server. In saying this, no features/changes are exclusive to one of these 3 groups. We've already heard from former players who have returned because of the housing changes despite the focus not being for them. There's no need to retread the decades old party line or re-explaining the same point of view of brick walls that don't exist in any other NWN community. If you don't mind potential for dm loop holes and not answering the rules questions I have raised and asked, just say so and we'll leave it there. A critical ending, indeed, but it's honest and built on the foundation that I believe that the tough questions that would get players banned before can now be answered honestly and truthfully; if not by you, then by someone else who can step up to that plate. Again, no hard feelings, no anger or resentment, just open book questioning. Cheers and apologies again for the delay in reply. These 4 lines confused me the most. Which DM loop holes, and which rules? I've tried to answer every single one of your questions to the best of my knowledge. This last statement honestly felt the least genuine, so I emphasis my first point. We need specifics if we are going to get anywhere in breaking down these "brick walls", and we can't do anything if it's the player's who are building them.
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Post by DM Hawk on Jan 9, 2022 9:21:37 GMT -5
I can respond to Bert's comments about the past. You asked for specifics on DM harassment, but I think it's better to give you a general personal opinion in context of the history of FRC and a small player base of which I am a part of. in years gone by there was a culture of DMs punishing specific groups of players weekly because they said something that did not toe the line or they simply didn't like the group. I joined the FRC community in 2005 and was invited to join the DM Team in 2009. DM Justicar invited me to join the DM Team despite the fact that I had disagreements with a few DM's and had some of my own behavior addressed by Justi when it didn't honor the rules and spirit of the house. For one example, I helped to establish the Ninja Looting rule Justicar didn't hold these things against me. Over the years on the DM Team I've seen a lot of seasons come and go. One thing I didn't see was a DM Team culture of targeting and punishing players who either disagreed with the team or were disliked by the team. Being one of the more active DM's over the last 12+ years, I didn't see a DM Team culture of targeting players to punish at all. As an aside in general - over the years, some players have expressed feelings of being targeted while being addressed for disregarding the rules. Like any referee, part of the DM's job is to uphold the rules of the game and keep things fair for our players. Folks who disregard the rules frequently are simply more likely to be addressed more often. This doesn't mean the DM Team is lurking overhead with a ban hammer, eager to smite. Player's shouldn't worry about an ominous DM Team out to get them. Our DM's are players as well and we're here to have fun with the community. When we have to intervene it's just an unpleasant task that comes with the job and we try to approach folks in good faith with a light touch to resolve problems amicably. We won't put up with BS though and continued willful disregard of the rules or poor conduct will result in heavier responses. They were above the rules of the server and were very much a law unto themselves. During my time on the DM Team, we've had our share of problems but we have not been above the rules. In fact there has always been an expectation for a higher standard of behavior from DM's by Justicar. We also know that we aren't perfect by a long shot and DM's make mistakes. When this happens we try to acknowledge it and make things right. Of course DM's are individuals as well and some came and went who didn't uphold the standard we try to maintain. Is it possible that an individual DM harassed you at some point? Sure, anything is possible. There have been a few DM's who exhibited some behavior problems over the years. DM's are accountable for their actions too - but we aren't all knowing. Problems need to be reported. If a DM or PA was approached with a complaint it should have been investigated at the time. Justicar established the Player Advocate Team to be an independent resource for players to express concerns when they aren't comfortable approaching the DM team or want their concern to be anonymous. We try to take these concerns seriously and look into them. Some turn out to be BS or making a mountain out of a molehill, but others turn out to be the real deal and we try to resolve those issues. If a player on FRC has a genuine concern about a DM or another player's behavior they are encouraged to approach the DM or Player Advocate of their choice for help. This combined with other DM culture aspects lead to a very specific us vs them realm with the DM team and about 15 players. Justicar's word was absolute. Anyone who questioned this ideal were banned from the forum or tpked on a regular basis to keep their characters less powerful. This is why the Cormyr and Dalelands server among others was created. Some of us left, some stayed, some enjoy both servers. I am one of the latter. Both servers have great things to offer players but in very different ways and means. For those of us from that group that stayed or played on both there was a definite grudge and we would still be tpked regularly or be 'fined' through other measures, but we endured because other friends were (and some still are) here. I know the players you're referring to and I've been on good terms with some of them. One of them apologized recently for their conduct back then. Nearly all of the active DM's on FRC over the last decade weren't on the team during this conflict with Justicar that you're still begrudging. It hasn't been an issue for them. While mostly retired for years now, Justicar is the founding father of FRC and to date no one has put more time or work into this community. FRC is essentially an open door D&D game in his living room. The DM's operate with autonomy but having overall guidance and expectations set by Justicar. The shots have always been his to call when he feels they are needed. It's an authority he has used sparingly since I've been around. On FRC, no one has been banned from the forum or TPK'd for disagreeing with or questioning Justicar or the DM Team. The forum is full of examples. However, folks have lost privileges for being belligerent, insulting, or trying to undermine the community. There is a difference between disagreement and being hostile. As for intentional TPK's to punish folks for disagreement or being hostile, Justicar isn't that petty and this would go against his expectations and guidance for DM Team behavior. It's never been an acceptable practice for FRC DM's. Again, if it was reported that an individual DM triggered a TPK or other punitive measure out of spite it would have been investigated and addressed. Even more so if it was repetitive. After reading your post I reached out to one of the admins of Cormyr and the Dalelands who kindly confirmed that Justicar and FRC had nothing to do with their creation. When the server vault was lost I was not allowed any of my previous characters back and so while all of my friends, including my wife, got their characters back I had to start from scratch on four characters. The lost vault was very unfortunate and caused a lot of heartache. After getting the green light from Justicar, Extropy and I spent beaucoup hours manually restoring characters from the lost vault. In addition to individual requests, we advertised time slots with an open invitation for players to come and have their characters restored. I still get a request every few months to restore old vault characters for returning players and I don't remember turning anyone away. If you were truly denied having your characters restored, it would have been for the belligerent behavior you exhibited at the time. Again, I don't remember this happening to anyone. So, if you'd like to have any characters restored from the lost vault you can approach the DM of your choice and they'll be happy to help. For speaking out in defence of my friends I am used to being at the bottom of the FRC totem pole. I am used to not having any DM items on any of my characters. Pavlov has me trained well, as this was the norm for over a decade, not weeks or months. I am, however, doing my best to evolve and become more trusting as the DM team evolves as well. DM Maleficent's Kiss has played a massive part in changing my opinion in this respect and should be endowed with the admiration of every player and DM alike for her efforts in this regard. I think I remember DM Muse mentioning an event with you. FRC has an open door policy welcoming anyone who wants to play. Playing on FRC doesn't entitle anyone to DM rewards. Several factors weigh in including time zone, DM Style vs Player Style, etc. Our DM Team tries to avoid favoritism but one of the factors is player behavior. DM's are more likely to spend their time with amicable players. Players who exhibit hostile or ugly behavior should reasonably expect less fun attention from DM's. It's simply a function of time better spent with players who will appreciate and enjoy the effort. If you want to change that outcome, change the behavior. DM Maleficent's Kiss joined the DM Team nine years ago. That's a lot of time to have observed a DM Team culture if it was out to get you. So why did I stay? Firstly to prove a point that nothing the DMs doled out could deter me, but primarily I have good friends here. Real people I have visited, stayed with and forged life long friendships with. People who have stayed at my house repeatedly and even visited Disney with. I hope that helps you to understand the perspective of myself, and other players who are used to being guilty of playing and trying to help make changes for the betterment of the community as a whole, not for the few. The DM Team hasn't been out to get you. You haven't been targeted or punished or held back by a DM Team culture all these years. You've been welcome to play on FRC and that was Justi's call way back when.
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Post by deadbeatbert on Jan 9, 2022 14:39:29 GMT -5
Jortek, you're awesome. We're both engineers and I understand how you work. You still missed my points about DM adding opinion and interpretation to rules, but it's a small thing. The rules won't change and FRC will remain FRC. I can PM you about the places I DMed, admined and ran if you're really interested. The rules on those servers likely won't gel because of the core intent of FRC's DMing system. Those servers were built to make the players the centerpiece of an ever evolcing server. As Hawk said, we're still in Justi's living room. Players are free to play but they do not create.
I have many (8 I think) players in contact with me privately in pms and on Discord about issues they are worried to bring up publicly. Once I have them all and am able to change them to my own hand to secure their anonymity I'll send you a PM to reduce the popcorn posting. It's mostly unrelated to the actual Script/build work you posted about here, but your logic is sound.
One person who pmed me said something entirely profound - less is more on FRC. I will no longer make the long winded posts and try to keep each subject its own entity.
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Jan 9, 2022 14:55:21 GMT -5
Jortek, you're awesome. We're both engineers and I understand how you work. You still missed my points about DM adding opinion and interpretation to rules, but it's a small thing. The rules won't change and FRC will remain FRC. I can PM you about the places I DMed, admined and ran if you're really interested. The rules on those servers likely won't gel because of the core intent of FRC's DMing system. Those servers were built to make the players the centerpiece of an ever evolcing server. As Hawk said, we're still in Justi's living room. Players are free to play but they do not create. I have many (8 I think) players in contact with me privately in pms and on Discord about issues they are worried to bring up publicly. Once I have them all and am able to change them to my own hand to secure their anonymity I'll send you a PM to reduce the popcorn posting. It's mostly unrelated to the actual Script/build work you posted about here, but your logic is sound. One person who pmed me said something entirely profound - less is more on FRC. I will no longer make the long winded posts and try to keep each subject its own entity. I have to disagree about what you say. "Players are free to play but they do not create" I highly disagree with that and take offence on the dm teams behalf. Now more then ever is RP rewarded with IG reflections and more. You just have to get out and be active. as you said you have a issue with large gatherings. Sadly from my experience world changing Rp takes place vastly in large crowds not always but it is how the dice roll. Some time we must step out of our comfort zone. I do not have a personal disability with large crowds but. I dislike the chatter and off track rp that it tends to bring. But non the less if you endure I swear to you things change by your RP IG. And as to speak on your behalf there were cases of Dm's targeting groups of players. However from those I know once a report was made and trust placed in the DM team. They resolved the problem and to my understanding the dms that were targeting players are no longer here. I would name the dms but whats the point. the issue is resolved. and that happened with the prior Dm team before we were blessed with the Current Dm team. Not trying to attack you just simply give another voice. and having been through some Similar incidents I thought i'd chime in. All I can say is honestly. Give the new Team a Chance they are far from the prior teams we had. They are the breath of fresh air you seek for the server and have proven so ten fold by now.
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Post by deadbeatbert on Jan 9, 2022 15:22:39 GMT -5
Hawk - I simply gave Jortek the history of my time on FRC as he asked for it. If I gave specifics I would be dragging former DMs, current Dms and current players through mud. I don't want to do that. It wasn't the point of the post, it was to show Jortek that times were rough and the culture of the DM team is very different (Autocratic) that does not, for the most part, concern themselves with the player base's opinion. This has not changed, and nor will it.
While officially the DM team hasn't been out to get me, events reported to Pithirendar showed, with screen shot and log evidence, that groups were indeed being targeted frequently for TPKs. Whether it aligns with policy or not does not mean it didn't happen. You should also know of at least four DMs who personally TPKed me when out travelling alone as screenshots were sent to the team from my old FRC account before *redacted* intentionally borked it in spite of what you say Justicar said.
Regarding my characters, you refused all of my bic files personally. I remade Gideon, who is now 9 levels past where he was, then Johannes is now 4 levels past where he was. I couldn't play Tiberius with my mates as they were all level 18-20 so I just killed him off and Shamoke is now 22 levels beyond where my other guy was. Why was I made to restart? Only you and Justicar know I suspect. I caught Justicar in the lie, proved it with evidence and the end results were clear. It is what it is. Given your response I think it's been so long you probably don't even remember stonewalling me and it's redundant to offer it now.
To be clear: I don't hold any grudges about it. Water under the bridge.
After all of that upheaval things were pretty smooth and for the last three years it has been smooth. I even got Gideon Epic, and playing him since 2007? I earned that *chickenwing*! So yes, things were good all the way up until that time last year where it clearly wasn't. You never replied, but you were copied in on that pm chain too, mate. I know with 100% certainty I wasn't the only player involved in those circumstances and every interaction was when I was solo. Was my no contact request ever honoured?
In closing: Painting the DM team as neutral organisation without personal agendas may be a noble idea, but isn't how reality works. There is your version of the DM team, the DM's versions, mine and every other player's. Somewhere in that spider's web is the truth, but it's nebulous and not the version you just posted, mate.
Your HR reply really wasn't needed. Defending the honour of the DM team wasn't something you needed to do because it was just an honest recollection of past events now only slightly related to the topic. In fact, that's one of the things in the list mentioned by more than one player. Players are not employees. FRC is not a business and it's supposed to be a place to enjoy and love roleplaying in a comfortable and cool environment. But some people have left because of it and some of those still here are not loving it right now. They want to help make it better, but won't say anything because they think that A/ They won't be listened to. And B/ Speaking out about things will only get them more trouble down the line.
Given the PMs I have received, some of these issues clearly still exist and players want change. Looks like I'm the voice again, I know where that can lead and I'm prepared for everything that comes along with that.
Cheers,
B
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Post by Masterbard Alyster Darkharp on Jan 9, 2022 15:56:03 GMT -5
The creative tools are better than they have ever been on FRC, not sure what that is about. I agree that players on FRC at this time have the ability to create more than they ever have before. They are even working on a system where we arrange our own playerhomes and essentially, take a canvas and do what we want with it. We have crafting systems for weapons, armor, herbs, venoms. The painting/writing system is vastly improved and we can create books and painting. We can make magical weapons and armor. If you mean that players don't have complete creative freedom to make themselves stuff for FRC, sure, they don't, thats exactly right. If you actually mean that players on FRC don't get to create anything, dead wrong. The team today is much more active in working with players to create things that those characters made. We create stories, we create items, we organize player organized events. I am really not sure what the statement means that players on FRC do not create. Been here creating stories, roleplay, items, and a damn good time strictly from a player standpoint for 15 years now. The rest of the arguments/issues you can all hash out and there isn't much I have to say about them, that though is a false statement in almost any way you view it.
Take this less as disagreeing with you though and more as wanting clarity on exactly what it is that it upsets people over that they dont get to create? I am interested in the answer because what players get to create seems to have vastly increased over time.
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Post by DM Sauron on Jan 9, 2022 19:54:40 GMT -5
For a lack of a better way to explain it, I think the core of the issue is a generation switch when it comes to some players.
Some want FRC to remain the old way where "Less is more", yet at the same time, some of these players don't want to play the old way and old school anymore with all the house rules and RP "standards" FRC is known for.
Instead, they want the freedom to do as they wish, with little to no DM intervention and only to have a DM presence for events and issues that they encounter ingame.
Ideally, if nobody cheated or abused the system, that would be the way to run the server. Alas, that is not the reailty we have.
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Post by brygun on Jan 10, 2022 9:14:45 GMT -5
Ideally, if nobody cheated or abused the system, that would be the way to run the server. Alas, that is not the reailty we have. Case in point: i've had someone try to bribe me on discord to do an OOC rescue because he died while rescuing someone and ... I quote... "didn't want to lose the cool" same player later... new "B" character groping with a tail that is illegal to have and bitching in tells how I should have reacted to what they werent even to have.. and ta da... next day on their main character in gaurgaunt going on IC and OOC how power mad my character was... for a situation that was him cheating and was retconned as didn't happen... but not to the jerk cheating. There are twits (insert more accurate impolite term) who come onto this server. Every community needs people overseeing the population. If it was a free for all you might actually end up with the freedom of the abused target.
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Post by iamthecircle on Jan 10, 2022 9:27:30 GMT -5
I... I would be very surprised if bert was suggesting DMs do nothing as players break the rules. He was advocating for more accurate rules earlier, so you are reading his words extremely uncharitably. Maybe I'm reading him too charitably, but frankly its nonsensical to say bert's advocating for zero DM oversight.
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Andros
Old School
I only know that I know nothing
Posts: 437
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Post by Andros on Jan 10, 2022 10:13:43 GMT -5
I have said this before but I will say it again because it's still true now; in 10 years of playing FRC, I have never seen a DM TPK on purpose. Many times I have been with groups where we weren't able to rise to a challenge or a DM has miscalculated the difficulty of an encounter but every time they have helped the party get out of the mess. Even in times when I dont think they should have (as in we messed up the fight and died to a beatable encounter) but they still let us escape somehow.
What I have seen though is that some of my fellow players get butthurt when they lose and will often take things personally when they don't get their way, or feel personally attacked by the DMs when it's not about them.
Personally I have had my share of differences with the DM team but every time that I have disagreed with a ruling they have given me a reason that I can understand and respect.
I am really happy with the way the server has been evolving since the EE change and specially since the new team took over, they have been able to inject new energy into the server, and while some of them might be a bit green I think they have had the right attitude and I'm looking forward to see what they do in 2022 as they get more experience.
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Post by brygun on Jan 10, 2022 11:15:58 GMT -5
I... I would be very surprised if bert was suggesting DMs do nothing as players break the rules. He was advocating for more accurate rules earlier, so you are reading his words extremely uncharitably. Maybe I'm reading him too charitably, but frankly its nonsensical to say bert's advocating for zero DM oversight. My intention wasn't about Bert but to support DM Sauron, with local examples, that all communities need some form of regulation. There will be those who meander or exploit. When running tabletop games in my house there is about 6 ish people to co-ordinate and we can keep in a general pattern pretty easily. Rarely but it did happen I'd have to cease someone attending. One dismissal admitted he just kept getting out of hand and he didn't know why. That's part of people they have their own hearts and sometimes move on for good or bad reasons. In my working years as a manager the more people present the more effort is needed to co-ordinate. We are a "no gate" server in that anyone can wander in the front door and therefore at times we get some who need some steering and the rare too far outside. I'm fine with this it is part of who we are. When brining a character through GG I expect and accept some hiccups with new-to-server. If I'm not up to it, as sometimes my health problems shift me, I tend to stay out of GG. Digressing a bit... the idea is a support that we will always want some level of DM presence for shielding the interests of the community. We are in an abstract way in their house, much like in tabletop.
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Post by DM Hawk on Jan 12, 2022 22:44:39 GMT -5
Bert, Hawk - I simply gave Jortek the history of my time on FRC as he asked for it. If I gave specifics I would be dragging former DMs, current Dms and current players through mud. I don't want to do that. It wasn't the point of the post, it was to show Jortek that times were rough and the culture of the DM team is very different (Autocratic) that does not, for the most part, concern themselves with the player base's opinion. This has not changed, and nor will it. While trying to respond, Jorteck asked you to provide specific context for statements you made and to which you recalled attention. It looks like you then proceeded to throw plenty of mud without providing specifics. The views and feelings of players are given quite a lot of attention by the DM Team. This thread and others are examples of this, along with countless hours reading the forum, talking with players in game, discussing problems and solutions, and the list goes on. DM's are players as well and have friends in game. We receive a lot of input. There's rarely consensus among player perspectives and at the end of the day someone has to be the decision maker. The DM's are also tasked with maintaining the atmosphere, quality, and vision of the server as they try to find the best way forward. This is pretty standard for NWN communities. While officially the DM team hasn't been out to get me, events reported to Pithirendar showed, with screen shot and log evidence, that groups were indeed being targeted frequently for TPKs. Whether it aligns with policy or not does not mean it didn't happen. You should also know of at least four DMs who personally TPKed me when out travelling alone as screenshots were sent to the team from my old FRC account before *redacted* intentionally borked it in spite of what you say Justicar said. DM Pithirendar was pretty diligent responding to her inbox and reporting problems. I don't see anything from her about this. Your old forum account was locked by Justicar because of your behavior, not because of a TPK report. Locking the account doesn't prevent any recipient from viewing PM's previously sent by the account or remove posts from the forum. If you're saying that you reported these things to Pithrendar from your old account, I don't think this is the case. Your previous account looks to have been locked by Justicar around the end of 2012 while Pithirendar joined the FRC PA Team in 2014 and subsequently joined the EDM and DM Teams. I've also gone through my inbox and can't find any reports from you about this on either account. Perhaps you sent it to another DM or it was sent by someone else. Regarding my characters, you refused all of my bic files personally. I remade Gideon, who is now 9 levels past where he was, then Johannes is now 4 levels past where he was. I couldn't play Tiberius with my mates as they were all level 18-20 so I just killed him off and Shamoke is now 22 levels beyond where my other guy was. Why was I made to restart? Only you and Justicar know I suspect. I caught Justicar in the lie, proved it with evidence and the end results were clear. It is what it is. Given your response I think it's been so long you probably don't even remember stonewalling me and it's redundant to offer it now. I've checked both my inbox and my FRC email and I can't find a request from you to restore your characters. It's possible we had a conversation in game that I don't remember. I did find this though, shared by DM Syds at the time: [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Apr 15 17:46:29] DM Syd : [Tell] I've noticed a ton of new faces recently. Can we look forward to a general return of long gone players? [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Apr 15 17:48:00] DM Syd : [Tell] A few of us are really hopeful of such a thing [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Apr 15 17:48:08] Reece Dai Gawain: [Tell] A bunch of us are back. I put in an app to Extropy to get Tiberius back. Simo, Nettie, Me, vcb, a couple of others and I brought two new players too... working on a third [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Apr 15 17:48:34] DM Syd : [Tell] Glad to have you guys all back. [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Apr 15 17:48:42] DM Syd : [Tell] Everyone is DM Extropy began providing lost vault bic restores in 2013 and I don't remember him turning anyone down. After all of that upheaval things were pretty smooth and for the last three years it has been smooth. I even got Gideon Epic, and playing him since 2007? I earned that *chickenwing*! So yes, things were good all the way up until that time last year where it clearly wasn't. You never replied, but you were copied in on that pm chain too, mate. I know with 100% certainty I wasn't the only player involved in those circumstances and every interaction was when I was solo. Was my no contact request ever honoured? You're talking about your conflict with EDM Ruin. Ruin joined the community after our EE conversion and wasn't around during your conflict with Justicar. Ruin wasn't part of any DM Team culture out to get you. This was an individual conflict between the two of you that you both hashed out in the PM. There was no mention of a TPK or other players being bothered. The only request you made was that Ruin avoid you player side in the future. Ruin voluntarily agreed to it and disclosed all of their characters to you. Ruin was also open about their player identity in general. It seemed to me that you two settled things between yourselves. In closing: Painting the DM team as neutral organisation without personal agendas may be a noble idea, but isn't how reality works. There is your version of the DM team, the DM's versions, mine and every other player's. Somewhere in that spider's web is the truth, but it's nebulous and not the version you just posted, mate. Your HR reply really wasn't needed. Defending the honour of the DM team wasn't something you needed to do because it was just an honest recollection of past events now only slightly related to the topic. In fact, that's one of the things in the list mentioned by more than one player. Players are not employees. FRC is not a business and it's supposed to be a place to enjoy and love roleplaying in a comfortable and cool environment. But some people have left because of it and some of those still here are not loving it right now. They want to help make it better, but won't say anything because they think that A/ They won't be listened to. And B/ Speaking out about things will only get them more trouble down the line. Given the PMs I have received, some of these issues clearly still exist and players want change. Looks like I'm the voice again, I know where that can lead and I'm prepared for everything that comes along with that. Cheers, B Folks are of course free to talk with and confide in whomever they like, especially their friends. However, you are not a Player Advocate on FRC. Our DM's keep an open door to receive player concerns. If anyone is uncomfortable approaching a DM with a concern our Player Advocate Team is available to help and will represent your concern anonymously if desired. Players and DM's disagree all the time and there's no harm done. DM's disagree with DM's as well. There is no problem having a different opinion, question, or having a concern. We welcome feedback. Just be respectful and honest, like you'd want to be treated. In contrast, hostile, ugly, or dishonest communication of course presents problems that we'll have to address. FRC is not a business, we can agree. It's been a labor of love. The DM Team are not employees and no one on FRC staff has made a cent off of it. Donations have been offered and were politely declined. All of FRC's contributors are volunteers who have given time and effort to support a hobby they love and share it with our players.
We're here to have fun and enjoy a hobby together. I think you're taking these things too seriously. You're also not owning up to your own behavior and the role it's played in these conflicts. While you have been welcome to play on FRC all these years, you should have taken it as a warning when Justicar locked your old forum account. The DM Team is deciding to give you another warning now. If you continue to throw mud or continue to be spiteful, hostile, or passive aggressive, you will wear out your welcome. Then it will be adios. It doesn't have to be this way. Relax, chill, and have fun. Good folks are working hard to bring more fun to FRC.
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Jan 21, 2022 10:51:09 GMT -5
*tries to put the thread back on topic*
So, keeping in mind this effort to get people to explore, would it be frowned upon if a higher level character ends up going into a lower level place that they might not have been before? Right now, it's considered poor form to have your PC go somewhere that they don't even get hurt at, but if this timer is in effect, then should this be not so much of a concern anymore?
I'll echo what was said before, that this could potentially harm players who really only go to the road spots to fill their pockets with "travel" funds. Cost for caravans and such (yes I'm talking about myself, go fig). So would I get a warning if I have my PC travel the southern road between GG and VR, taking on all the encounters, and clearing out the loot when she'd be considered a "high level"?
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